Controversial opinions

[RetroPokeFan]

Remember the Cinderace and Lucario episode? How was SO, UTTERLY, EMPTY???

If they wanted to put the humans first, then where were they? Where on earth were the humans and the Pokémon in that episode?

 

[nickdt]

What they should delete from Journeys (And Pokemon altogether) is episodic episodes. Its clear it just doesn't work with Pokemon, due to it being an already established anime and imo, is the real issue for Pokemon Journeys and why everything feels so empty and disconnected (Since whats the point in filling up an area we are likely never gonna visit again anyways due to the episodic nature).

 

[Mr. MoonStone]

Not to change up the ongoing discussion, but I did want to raise an interesting point that a friend of mine mentioned earlier today: nostalgia is not the only factor behind why some fans prefer the earlier episodes of the original series to the more "modern" approach seen in the later episodes of the anime. The writing style, pacing, and storylines had a very specific tone and character that you really don't see outside of that particular set of episodes. And after thinking it over, I agree. There was definitely a specific style the show was going for back in the day that was pretty much dropped later on. Taking that into consideration, I don't think it's fair to necessarily dismiss fans of that arc as just "blinded by nostalgia" or "anime-genwunners" or whatever (just as it isn't fair to dismiss fans of the other many formats the anime has taken on over the years). I think it's more nuanced than just that.

 

[UglyToast]

Actually, no, it doesn't. Let's look over the problems, shall we?

• The Pokemon
  • Lack of proper screen time for the pokemon and proper treatment as actual characters is a big issue in Journeys right now, and I don't see it going away if we remove Goh from the show. A terribly written Pikachu is getting focus at the cost of Ash's other pokemon-this isn't because of Goh, now is it? Eevee and Grookey both are treated as pets, so I don't see much of a difference in that either. I already mentioned it, but Pikachu would probably still be just as soulless and empty as before, even without Goh.
  • Team Rocket doesn't have pokemon to bond with, making them feel empty and "different" as well. Well, now they have Morpeko, but that's a different problem in of itself and has nothing to do with Goh. Actually, speaking of Team Rocket...
• The Gacha and Team Rocket
  • I don't think I need to explain this one. Team Rocket's portrayal in Journeys have been sub-par at best, and much of it stems from the issue in regards to the pokemon. They're still used as plot devices, which has been an issue since the anime first started, and at this point it's just a cherry on top compared to the other complains Journeys has garnered.
• The Episodic Nature
  • Um, yeah. This is probably where most of Journeys problems actually come from and honestly is just as subjective as the other two points I've made. Episodes are often either rushed or dragged on for far too long and the same goes for overall character development sans Chloe, who's only a supporting character. It feels like nothing of note has happened, despite the fact that a bunch of things actually have. It feels like YEARS ago when Ash and Goh were battling for the Galar region against Chairman Rose. Speaking of that dude, what happened to him? Has he ever been mentioned since? Don't think so.
  • While it is beneficial to some, since you can jump in at any time and understand what is happening, it also makes many episodes feel redundant to the narrative and makes filler episodes stand out a lot more. I've skipped ten episodes in a row and still understood what was happening with little to no effort.
• Plot
  • What even is the plot here? Goh's is one, yes; to catch Mew, which seems like an end goal, but...really? His goal is to catch all the pokemon TO Mew. But despite being presented in almost every other episode, it feels so in the background it's like you can blink and miss it. Goh catches a pokemon! Great, he's only got 567 more pokemon to catch! ...yay!!! So clearly, despite what people think, Goh's goal can't be the driving force of the narrative.
  • So what about Ash? He's got the PWC and it has clear goal marks as to when it would end as well, right? Yeah, except it's rushed as hell. And Ash is barely getting any development from it. Or his pokemon. Two of which who has already gotten rushed development. Two of which who had their entire plot solved in their introduction episode, making every appearance after feel hard to get invested into since their problems were already solved. One of which is literally just a gag pokemon with no other purpose. And another of which, fine, if you watch just Journeys, he isn't OOC...BUT he's unlikable and doesn't have any redeeming qualities-that is not how you write balanced characters. Speaking of characters...
• Characters and Development
  • Since the pokemon aren't being treated as characters, we have to look at just the humans and what they have to offer. And what do they have? Well, seventy episodes in and Ash has received very little development, Goh's is honestly rather confusing to follow, and Chloe is actually done pretty well, though she could do with more appearances.
  • Leon is barely developed as a character, so is Raihan, Sonia, and the other characters that was important to the literal arc spanning over five episodes. Why should we care about them? No idea. Doesn't matter anymore since now they're pushed to the background.
• World-building
  • I've already brought up some time in the past my issues with the new take of putting the humans first in terms of the plot, and this actually affects the world as well. Everything often feels lifeless and empty, and some things just don't make much sense, like how it used to be established that you need to battle before catching a pokemon yet suddenly they changed that for this series I guess??? Ash and Goh are research assistants but barely act like it, despite there being a literal schoolgirl in the cast; like Alola, this "school" is heavily underutilized and just feels like background fodder and doesn't really build the world that much, and overall, I'm shocked as to how this series first impressed me with it's world-building in the very beginning but then got lazier as time went on.
  • When was the last time somebody brought up the fact that some pokemon don't exist in certain regions? The Alolan Ninetails episode, you might say. Correction, when was the last time this was brought up solely to make the world feel realistic instead of for plot purposes? ...no? I honestly don't remember. In Unova, it was constantly remarked that Pikachu was rare in Unova, just like any Kanto pokemon; Iris actually thought Charizard was a dragon type, the differences between the pokemon from Unova and Kanto were constantly referenced. Alola spent all this time exploring the Alolan forms compared to, once more, the Kantoneon pokemon, with the help of Misty and Brock. Hoenn and Sinnoh had consistent color pallets in their scenery and unique climates that made the regions easy to recognize. Now, in Journeys, it's hard to tell regions apart. Remember the Cinderace and Lucario episode? How was SO, UTTERLY, EMPTY??? The sense of what this world is and what it's rules are is far more confusing than it's ever been. At least before, there was a sense of continuity. Now? I don't feel it.

The biggest problems in this series that aren't completely subjective largely stem from the writing, not Goh. If you remove Goh, you just add more questions to the narrative and honestly would make things worse. Goh is just an unfortunate result of such terrible writing. Plot-points are rushed, many episodes feel badly paced on their own, many characters don't receive proper development, and Goh himself doesn't exactly get Gold Star development either. The world-building is problematic in that it's mechanics are changed entirely compared to previous series, and it's promised too much and as given too little. The plot is rushed and while easy to follow, just doesn't seem very clear. There's no clear driving force, as these two "goal posts" can actually be dragged out for as long as possible, sans the PWC, which has already been rushed to hell.

Saying deleting Goh from Journeys solves half the issues the anime has right now seems honestly disingenuous to how many issues in Journeys are either subjective or are a result of more technical aspects that don't result from one specific character. It's essentially pointing fingers at nothing. Throw a dart, missed the board entirely-Goh's not the reason for most of the problems in Journeys. Sure, he's got a lot of problems himself, but any problems arising from it only affect exactly that: himself.

Deleting Goh means they have to rewrite most of the episodes (which can be spread around Ash, Chloe or Leon's development also might as well give Ash's team focus they deserve)

"But despite being presented in almost every other episode, it feels so in the background it's like you can blink and miss it."
I'm sorry but bruh, you can literally see this on every INTRO, If you can miss even something like that, then I would be concerned about how you watch the episodes.

As for World-Building, I've never said It has to do with Goh, that probably has to do with pandemic going on or they want to cut low from budget.

For Plot, it can be spread around episodes a lot more easily (If we don't count the episodes that solely made for promotional purposes)

For the Goh's Goal saying "catching every Pokemon will be lead to Mew" has a very weird logic, sure Mew has believed to have DNA of every Pokemon but does Goh thinks Mew is suddenly gonna appear in front of him for catching 890+ Pokemons as a gift?

About Gacha, it never bothered me that much, I believe out of all problems in Journeys, Gacha is subjective rather than objective to me.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Gacha is subjective rather than objective to me

And so is every other complaint about Journeys? Technically speaking, if the episodic nature of the show is a problem, then Goh isn't at fault. If the writing is a problem, then Goh is not at fault, the writers are. Blaming a fictional character for problems that largely stem from the ability of the writers just feels shallow to me. You can dislike Goh, but saying that half of the show's problems will be solved if he's gone feels excessive, and subjective.

Not to mention I already said how most of the Journeys complaints are subjective.

I'm sorry but bruh, you can literally see this on every INTRO, If you can miss even something like that, then I would be concerned about how you watch the episodes.

This statement tells me you didn't read what I wrote after. That, or I wasn't clear enough. Goh is still the co-protagonist and while he overshadows Ash in this series, I don't think giving Goh the boot will magically solve most of this series' problems. This would imply that Ash is being done well, which many would disagree with. Plus, Goh's goal, despite being shown more than Ash, just feels rather black and white to me. The fact that it's in every episode without managing to seem like proper focus is what sends me the signal that it isn't the driving force of the narrative. Not to mention they only implemented actual goal posts for Goh, what, sixty episodes in this anime? Once again a writing issue. This is why I called Goh's goal "in the background" because despite all the focus Goh's getting, it's ultimately going nowhere. The only one who feels like there's actual effort being put into is Chloe.

As for World-Building, I've never said It has to do with Goh, that probably has to do with pandemic going on or they want to cut low from budget.

...and I never said you did. World-building is one of the problems with this series and you did say getting rid of Goh will solve some of Journeys' problems. Also, this is ignoring everything else I said in the world-building aspect-it is not just the animation. I spoke of many technical aspects as well, such as how the pokemon are implemented into the world. Is that the fault of the pandemic?

For Plot, it can be spread around episodes a lot more easily (If we don't count the episodes that solely made for promotional purposes)

So without Goh it would essentially be the same thing. Good to know. And "spreading it around the episodes more easily" doesn't make sense either because now you're implying that Goh is the reason why the "plot" can be spread out more easily when:

• It is already spread out because of Journeys' episodic nature
• I was implying that there is no clear plot, while you are saying there is. What is the plot you are describing? It can't be a plot about Goh, because you just said that the plot can be spread out more easily without him. So...?

Deleting Goh means they have to rewrite most of the episodes (which can be spread around Ash, Chloe or Leon's development also might as well give Ash's team focus they deserve)

If they have to rewrite most of the episodes, then that implies that Goh is important to this series. Is he a problem or important? And this also applies to Ash. Actually, it might apply to Ash even more because not only has he received no development, he's made no imprint on the narrative whatsoever. Problems in writing would be eliminating the unimportant stuff, and right now, that's Ash as his narrative is just as unclear as Goh's.

Also, how does this change anything? Journeys is still episodic. You forget that people also complained about the amount of filler in this series. Deleting Goh would just make the structure remain the same, which IS a problem.

For the Goh's Goal saying "catching every Pokemon will be lead to Mew" has a very weird logic, sure Mew has believed to have DNA of every Pokemon but does Goh thinks Mew is suddenly gonna appear in front of him for catching 890+ Pokemons as a gift?

Goh's goal being confusing is not substantial enough reason to remove him from the show. This can be easily fixed with proper writing, which, as I have already established, this anime currently does not have.

It's problems would not be solved if Goh magically disappeared.

Journeys' problems right now largely stem from one huge thing in regards to the writing ability, which indirectly leads to sub-categories of its problems, which leads to the many subjective complaints people have: the structure. It's structure is what's causing everything to feel disjointed and disconnected, not Goh. It's structure is why there's so much rushed development. It's structure is the reason why the filler has been all around much more noticeable. It's structure is the reason why questionable aspects about Ash and Goh's goals feel improperly explored. The world-building aspect is icing on the cake: that leads to the pokemon becoming in the background...in a series about Pokemon!

I'm sorry but the notion that you're making about Goh in regards to Journeys just feels heavily subjective with little reasoning to back it up.

 

[Galactic_V]

I think I've said it before, and probably multiple times already, but I'll repeat myself: PM2019, all in all, had a great premise but didn't quite live up to it (didn't even get close to my initial expectations (and most people I'd believe after reading most comments in here)).

I have stopped following it months ago, only getting myself to watch a new episode if something interesting happens (a new capture, appearance of an old character, etc...), and even then I've skipped a bunch of plot-related ones. Thing is, this episodic format that started in SM (which was more of a slice-of-life back then) doesn't really work for this anime imo, it gets boring and stale fast. I'd take the old COTD\gym battles\league competition building formula any day over this new World Championship one.

Even bringing back old characters, something I initially thought would happen a lot in this series, have been scarce.

 

[Hidden Mew]

the only thing I disagree right here is "Gou is a good character" sure peoples can have their opinions but deleting Gou out of Journeys (somehow) solves half of the issues anime has right now.
Maybe that's because of how poorly executed his goal was but IDK.

I really disagree. Implying that at least half of the problems with Journeys come from Goh seems rather harsh. It comes off more like treating him like a scaepgoat than anything else, especially when there are plenty of issues unrelated to Goh.

Who knows what the plan is, really?

It's interesting to me they opted to open up the anime in this way. To go from no limits on who can be on a team, on where the characters to go, on which characters can come back into the series, and so on, to being in just one region, catching one generation's Pokemon, etc. would feel reductive. Journeys has been such a departure from what they used to do I've a hard time seeing it as a short-term or one-off thing. It might not continue exactly as is but this general concept of openness should stay.

I can understand the appeal of allowing the characters to go wherever they want and catch whatever instead of being tied down specifically to the newest generation and region. That was an aspect of Journeys people liked when it was first announced and especially when Ash was catching popular Pokemon like Dragonite, Gengar and Riolu. However, I don't find that aspect as appealing, or at least not worth sacrificing giving the spotlight to new locations and new Pokemon. As much as I love the fact that Ash has a Lucario now, something I wanted so desperately to happen in DP, Lucario doesn't really need the boost in merchandise by being associated with the anime as much as new Pokemon would. If Journeys had been able to balance out new and older Pokemon and locations much more effectively, then I'd probably be way more into this format and the concept of openness sticking around for the future. I wouldn't say that lasting for one series would be short term either, especially if there is a longer gap between generation eight and nine. I don't think that will happen, but three years still doesn't sound like short term to me.

This isn't necessarily evidence, but when the director says he wants every Pokemon to be shown... that's not something you can accomplish in three years. What's more, you can just as easily extend Ash's participation in the PWC, by having him lose to Leon (because in all seriousness, where does Ash go after beating Leon and being the no. 1 trainer in the world?) and simply pivot to challenging whoever Gen 9's Champion is. Or you can expand upon the idea in some way to keep things interesting.

And regardless of how popular an idea it its...

When did the director say that he wants every Pokemon to be shown? I've heard that brought up a few times, but I don't know where this claim comes from. I'm not sure how much weight that carries either when I don't know if the director has final say in regards to something like showcasing every Pokemon or how long Journeys can be.

I also really don't think that they could extend Ash's participation in the PWC. He's already in the Ultra Class and I can't see a losing streak lasting longer than the first one. While I could easily see him losing to Leon, I don't think just changing his target to the next generation's Champion would work. Leon is effectively Ash's goal for the series. Moving it to just the newest Champion so he could start over again would fall flat and feel kind of hallow. I don't know how else they could really expand the PWC to keep things interesting, especially when Ash would be supposedly in the Master Class and wouldn't have to climb up the ranks again in order to face a new Champion. The Gym Challenge was generally far more engaging and challenging than the PWC has been, so the idea of Ash continuing with the PWC indefinitely does not sound appealing to me.

This isn't a notion. It's a fact.

Ash and Goh can go wherever they want. They can catch whichever Pokemon they want. Ash has Pokemon Gen 1, 4 and 8 on his team. Goh has caught Pokemon from every Gen and has even captured a legendary. Characters we thought would never return such as Gary and Dawn have come back. They could make an episode tomorrow where Giselle and the random kid from School of Hard Knocks made a return and it'd make complete sense in this story. Gen 8 having some promotion is no limitation when they can replicate that with Gen 9 and beyond.

I wouldn't really call that a fact, mainly because of how they've handled this so called limitless format. Yeah, they can go wherever they want and catch whatever Pokemon they want, but we also don't see most of those Pokemon and we don't actually spend time in most locations outside of Kanto. Despite not being tied down to a specific region or generation, I don't think it's really benefited at least Ash. The world traveling gimmick works in favor of Goh's goal, but I don't think that it couldn't have worked if they went to one region instead. Like I mentioned earlier, the PWC isn't really challenging him anymore than a Gym Challenge would and most of his opponents have been one-shot characters. The format doesn't really feel limitless when they aren't really making use of it with spending more time in different regions, actually having more arcs and giving more Pokemon a chance to shine.

If they're rushing through so much of Journeys now, it doesn't make me think that they'd want to do the same thing for generation nine and beyond. It's technically not impossible for that to happen, but it just seems rather unlikely for me at the moment and I don't think it would necessarily be a good idea if that were to happen. Not only because of how I feel about the current format, but I suspect fans would eventually get tired of the anime if it was just always about Ash and Goh's adventures just like people apparently were tired of the Gym challenges.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

I certainly have a lot of problems with Goh, especially the concept of him and how he's handled, but I agree that he's not the absolute source of Journeys problems. The writing and the way this series is structured is a large source of the problems. I have a lot of issues with Goh, but he's not responsible for issues such as the Pokemon, world building, Team Rocket, and plot.

 

[Enzo]

I think Goh by and on himself is absolutely a problem due to the way his character is written and his goal, but yeah, I also don't think deleting him would hypothetically fix JN.

(would I be opposed to that? nah, not really tho lol)

But do you wanna know what is absolutely the worst thing about JN? Two things, actually: Too much ambition and not doing enough to fulfil it and trying to juggle too many balls at the same time.

Spoiler

- They wanted to do an anime that visited every region and guess what? They failed at that.

• The episodic format just spasmed and died and nearly everyone wants it gone for good.
• Wanted to make something even bigger than a League with the PWC and also failed miserably.
• Goh's goal and his method talks for itself.
• Chloé's goal and even her character itself are rather boring and she has the narrative weight of a background plastic plant 99% of the time while neither doing or adding nearly nothing to the story in the other 1%.
• Pokémon are not characters anymore.
• Ash and his team, which is full of mons everyone wanted him to get for ages and that nearly are all super marketable are forgotten a lot.
• The TRio has never been treated this poorly in the narrative (no, not even in BW)

So yeah, dreaming too high and not doing enough (good) work imo.

 

[Unireon]

While it's true that Gou is not at fault for all the issues with Journeys.
And the writers were the ones who wasted all potential this series had.

Deleting him wouldn't fix anything, that doesn't work like that.
They should tackle the focus issue first, and stop favouring him so much.

I wouldn't like Journeys' format dragging for another generation.

 

[JinksChow]

Go's just a symptom, not the problem.

The problem, as others have pointed out, is the episodic nature of Pokemon JN, which exacerbated many underlying problems that were already present in the anime.

 

[prog rocker]

Am I the only one that saw the anime as extremely episodic even back in Gen I?

 

[Greninjaman]

Am I the only one that saw the anime as extremely episodic even back in Gen I?

I mean, given how often times, each episode don't reference the previous episode (unless a multi-parter), yea, I do agree that the anime seemed a bit episodic even back then.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Am I the only one that saw the anime as extremely episodic even back in Gen I?

I mean, given how often times, each episode don't reference the previous episode (unless a multi-parter), yea, I do agree that the anime seemed a bit episodic even back then.

I guess what “masked” the episodic-ness of the other series is the Pokémon progression arcs and gym battles. The gym battles serve as a definite checkpoint of profession for Ash, and a Pokémon’s current evolution stage and development stage also serves as a glue for the episodes. Most notably Journeys is missing both- the PWC is all over the place with Ash randomly jumping ranks off screen, and "notable" opponents being few and far between. Also, this series has added mostly fully evolved Pokémon to Ash's team, and hasn’t developed them with arcs.

 

[PikachuSmasher]

Another problem is that the PWC is extremely boring as is, due to the lack of 3v3 and 6v6 fights we get with notable characters. Heck, Journeys so far only has debuted 2 out of the 10 Gym leaders, which is just super impractical if they also need to debut the gen 9 characters in Journeys as well in that case.

Ash is already in Hyper Class as well, which means they either have to stretch him in Hyper Class until gen 9 comes out, but that provides another problem in regards to Leon, since they need to set-up the gen 9 champion and make him stronger than Leon, which basically destroys the entire point in Ash doing the PWC in the first place. So this means that they either let Leon be defeated by the gen 9 champion in the PWC or let Ash lose against Leon in the PWC or let him win against Leon, but then let him lose against the gen 9 Champion (Which would instantly means his win against Leon was pointless) and that we are getting a different tournament arc with the gen 9 character at the helm, who has defeated Leon in an unofficial match and as such is seen by Ash as even stronger than Leon. I am keep mentioning this, because by the time gen 9 comes out, Leon will be pretty much old news.

I feel some of the Gen 8 leaders will be in the Masters 8, so Ash battling them will tick them off. But yeah, if Gen 9 comes out, the Gen 8 part will have been a 3 year long waste and Ash battling the Gen 9 champ instead of Leon doesn't feel right. Maybe Gen 9 will be Journeys connected, like Ash still is in Cerise, but I highly doubt it

 

[nickdt]

I feel some of the Gen 8 leaders will be in the Masters 8, so Ash battling them will tick them off. But yeah, if Gen 9 comes out, the Gen 8 part will have been a 3 year long waste and Ash battling the Gen 9 champ instead of Leon doesn't feel right. Maybe Gen 9 will be Journeys connected, like Ash still is in Cerise, but I highly doubt it

The only gen 8 leaders it makes sense for to be in the Masters 8 are Raihan (Who has already debuted) and Kabu (Since Kabu is also champion material based on its Leage Card).

 

[Unireon]

They already wasted Poplar and ended up overdoing just one of her traits in a single gag that got dragged for so long.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Am I the only one that saw the anime as extremely episodic even back in Gen I?

It was episodic in the sense that a story could be told in a single episode but episodes actually had weight and flowed into an overall narrative that connected them. With Journeys however, each episode basically just floats in their own void for the most part and most of the time connect as much as one Simpsons episode does to another.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

This show always seems episodic to me, with some character arcs and running gags, which is not so different from what we got in this series.

 

[Johtohfiller]

It was episodic in the sense that a story could be told in a single episode but episodes actually had weight and flowed into an overall narrative that connected them. With Journeys however, each episode basically just floats in their own void for the most part and most of the time connect as much as one Simpsons episode does to another.

It's super frustrating because it's easy to see how it could be an excellent series if it bothered to connect things more.