Controversial opinions

[RetroPokeFan]

(Btw, this is pretty off-topic, I know, but what are Tsurugi's and Asahi's english names? Were they announced yet?)

The dub hasn't gotten to the Project Mew stuff yet but Batch 2 will most likely feature the first one where we'll find out their names.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I feel like XY was made to appeal to teenagers and adults as well

I think that's really overselling XY. XY had some pretty solid battles and the Team Flare arc was surprisingly intent for the anime, but it really wasn't designed to appeal to teenagers and adults. XY was still very much a kid show just like every Pokemon series before and after it.

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

Copying my post from the Anime and Manga Discussion over here, but like:

Can someone please explain to me why so many people say Origins Red was such a well developed character? Like, I understand people liking Origins because of it being close to the games or whatever; and how competent Red supposedly is, but developed? He's so static and barely changes as a character throughout...I swear, I've seen CotD's better developed than Red. Even if you argue he somehow got "stronger" over the course of the story: that struggle was never shown. Origins wasted far too much valuable time on expositions and awkwardly placed monologues instead of actually developing Red as a character. I understand that it was meant as nostalgia pandering to the fans, but why couldn't they do both? Instead, we get this weird cross between supposed prodigy and stereotypical anime protagonist with no flaws to speak of.

Don't even get me started on Giovanni.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Copying my post from the Anime and Manga Discussion over here, but like:

Can someone please explain to me why so many people say Origins Red was such a well developed character? Like, I understand people liking Origins because of it being close to the games or whatever; and how competent Red supposedly is, but developed? He's so static and barely changes as a character throughout...I swear, I've seen CotD's better developed than Red. Even if you argue he somehow got "stronger" over the course of the story: that struggle was never shown. Origins wasted far too much valuable time on expositions and awkwardly placed monologues instead of actually developing Red as a character. I understand that it was meant as nostalgia pandering to the fans, but why couldn't they do both? Instead, we get this weird cross between supposed prodigy and stereotypical anime protagonist with no flaws to speak of.

Don't even get me started on Giovanni.

From what I've seen, the reason people think Origins!Red is better developed than Ash seems to essentially boil down to the mere fact that Red accomplished his goals and Ash didn't. Of course, this completely ignores the fact that the only reason Red achieved his goals is because he's in a story where the narrative is heavily stacked on his favor while Ash isn't: videogames by design are meant to be beaten by the player, so of course a straight adaptation of a videogame like Pokemon Origins is going to allow the player-insert to succeed.

The problem is that, like you said, seeing Red accomplish his goals is extremely unsatisfactory because the kid's just incredibly bland: literally his only defining personality traits are that he's determined (something that is such a staple in anime protagonists that it's long since ceased to be an actual defining trait and might as well just be the base template at this stage), and that he's generically nice. And speaking of that generic niceness, there's another layer of issues with this, because Origins!Red is unfortunately not as nice or kind as he was intended to be: the narrative clearly wants us to see Red as this super empathitic and compassionate kid who cares deeply about Pokemon, but just look at how he treats the ones he owns: his Jolteon is so damn undertrained that it was oneshotted by a Thunderbolt (an attack it should resist) coming off of Rhyhorn (a Pokemon whose Special Attacking stat is laughably abysmal and doesn't even get STAB bonus). For this scenario to be even remotely possible in the games you practically have to be sucking on purpose. And yet Red still sent it to the slaughterhouse. Kid's honestly lucky that Giovanni decided to flex right then and there, because chances are that any of Rhyhorn's stronger attacks would have straight up killed that weak excuse for a Jolteon. The rest of Red's Pokemon don't get off any better either, since most tend to go down just as quickly whenever they're allowed to see the light of day. All of this makes it abundantly clear that Red only trains his Charizard and neglects everyone else. Sure, one could argue that it's just a reference to how several first-time players overlevelled their starters, but in the context of an anime adaptation that just results in Red looking like a complete jerk, especially so because he gets on Team Rocket's case for being cruel to Pokemon when he himself treats any non-Charizard ones as disposable pawns. Heck, even Charizard itself doesn't get any affection from Red until the very last episode!

Maybe I'm just salty because this series treated my favorite Eeveelution horribly, but even if Jolteon had been KO'd in a more believable manner (say, a Horn Attack or a Take-Down), I still don't think I'd feel that much better. At the end of the day, the Thunderbolt KO is merely a symptom of a greater issue: the fact that this special frankly doesn't care about any Pokemon that isn't Charizard. Which I guess is fine and dandy for fans of the creature, but was it really necessary to throw all the others under the bus just so that already overglorified lizard gets glittered up even more? Honestly, I'm aware of how spiteful this is, but if there is ever an animated special where a Charizard gets one-shotted by, say, a Sunkern's Energy Ball, I am not going to feel the slightest bit sorry for anyone who cries foul if they also defended Origins's Thunderbolt KO.

 

[FluffleFi]

Personally, be it game or some other media, i've never liked Red. The series keeps trying to paint him as the most badass of badass trainers but he's just so bland and they give him no real personality. I get that he's the very first protagonist of the whole series, but the other protags have so much better feats. He gets praised for taking out Team Rocket but are we just gonna forget that Ethan/Kris/Lyra had to deal with the remnants in Johto? Or how that Elio/Selene had to deal with Rainbow Rocket in Alola? I'm aware that his manga counterpart has personality and such, but i've never read the manga.

As for comparing Red to Ash, I think that has more to do with putting down Ash because its just such a hoot to mock the kid. People love to forget that the anime and games operate very differently. Can you imagine if Ash did win every league like the game characters? It'd likely be boring to watch for starters and it'd do away with a message that not too many shows taught back in the day; That its ok to lose. It may have taken him a while to get a win but its still a nice lesson to learn.

 

[Unireon]

Satoshi at least comes across as a decent character; he may has been mishandled or written poorly at times but never appeared as bland, boring or treated as an Stu.
Even now he still retains a certain degree of a mix between magnetism and charisma.

Red fell flat and irreal due to retaining the player embodiment aspect. Also, poor Thunders.

I hated Origins due to it being uninspired and a copy-paste of Red and Green as games without adding any depth.
Also for giving Lizardon more overexposure.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Personally, be it game or some other media, i've never liked Red. The series keeps trying to paint him as the most badass of badass trainers but he's just so bland and they give him no real personality. I get that he's the very first protagonist of the whole series, but the other protags have so much better feats. He gets praised for taking out Team Rocket but are we just gonna forget that Ethan/Kris/Lyra had to deal with the remnants in Johto? Or how that Elio/Selene had to deal with Rainbow Rocket in Alola? I'm aware that his manga counterpart has personality and such, but i've never read the manga.

Then there's the fact that not only do most protagonists dealt with villain teams that were significanlty more dangerous than Team Rocket, but the fact that it's heavily implied that the Giovanni that leads Team Rainbow Rocket isn't actually from an alternate universe effectively means that while Red might have disbanded the original Team Rocket, Giovanni was still able to rebuild it even greater than before. So yeah, the fact that RR Giovanni is from the main Pokemon universe while every other boss is from alternate ones where they won essentially makes Red the only protagonist to never truly put a definitive end to his antagonist's goals. Even Ethan/Kris get more merit than Red by sheer virtue of them preventing OG Team Rocket from making a comeback and even convincing a grunt to rethink his life (which he does as revealed by the BW games in one of the cutest easter eggs ever)

As for comparing Red to Ash, I think that has more to do with putting down Ash because its just such a hoot to mock the kid. People love to forget that the anime and games operate very differently. Can you imagine if Ash did win every league like the game characters? It'd likely be boring to watch for starters and it'd do away with a message that not too many shows taught back in the day; That its ok to lose. It may have taken him a while to get a win but its still a nice lesson to learn.

There's also the fact that Ash's situation is actually not that dissimilar to real life competitions: many real-life athletes go their entire careers without ever even getting close to winning a medal despite consistently placing high in rankings. The Pokemon anime is a reminder that other people besides the protagonist exist, and logically they too would have the dream of being the very best, so they'd train just as hard if not harder to reach that goal.

 

[Blob]

Personally, be it game or some other media, i've never liked Red. The series keeps trying to paint him as the most badass of badass trainers but he's just so bland and they give him no real personality. I get that he's the very first protagonist of the whole series, but the other protags have so much better feats. He gets praised for taking out Team Rocket but are we just gonna forget that Ethan/Kris/Lyra had to deal with the remnants in Johto? Or how that Elio/Selene had to deal with Rainbow Rocket in Alola? I'm aware that his manga counterpart has personality and such, but i've never read the manga.

As for comparing Red to Ash, I think that has more to do with putting down Ash because its just such a hoot to mock the kid. People love to forget that the anime and games operate very differently. Can you imagine if Ash did win every league like the game characters? It'd likely be boring to watch for starters and it'd do away with a message that not too many shows taught back in the day; That its ok to lose. It may have taken him a while to get a win but its still a nice lesson to learn.

Right? I also find Red's design to be really boring and I wish they'd re-vamp him since FRLG. I know in Gen 7 games he's older, but he still mostly looks the same as he did in FRLG.

Almost all re-vamped trainers after Red are either improvements on the originals or a slightly different take in remakes. The only real exceptions being the DP protagonists, which didn't get a makeover at ALL.

 

[Daren]

Red's treatment in the fanbase is odd to me because I haven't seen it in other long running game fandoms with switching protagonists. I have a theory or two but nothing solid.

It'd likely be boring to watch for starters and it'd do away with a message that not too many shows taught back in the day; That its ok to lose. It may have taken him a while to get a win but its still a nice lesson to learn.

I think this was sort of hurt by the fact it became clear before long that it had nothing to do with teaching lessons and everything to do with status quo.
"It's okay to lose" is one thing but it ended up turning into "effort is meaningless; everything is luck" when Ash finally won not due to improvement but because nobody on par with Tobias or Alain bothered coming to Alola.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

and even convincing a grunt to rethink his life (which he does as revealed by the BW games in one of the cutest easter eggs ever)

Off topic but I really loved this. It's such an easy to miss Easter egg but I'll be darned if I say it didn't make me smile so hard

 

[Galactic_V]

Off topic but I really loved this. It's such an easy to miss Easter egg but I'll be darned if I say it didn't make me smile so hard

View attachment 150282View attachment 150283

IIRC this character mixes English with Japanese in the Japanese version, just as Machisu does. Just a little curiosity here.


Anyway going to the Red controversy AnimeJewel started a few posts ago, I gotta say I completely agree with everything written. Not sure if I'm the right person to say it, I'm a little biased about this special due to how it was overhyped and overrated by some nasty Pokemon anime haters back in the day (basically those people who says the anime sucks, are for kids, have nothing good on it, Satoshi's such a loser and will never win anything, etc...), so I've never actually seen The Origin as a really "great" series.

It's fun, sure, I have a good time every time I get back to it, but I totally second the opinion that Satoshi is by far a better lead character than The Origin's Red. What I dislike the most is how rushed it is, which is understandable since it's only a 4-parter special, however because of this low point the battles are not that good and strategies are thrown out of the window and replacde by attack after attack spam (just like how Kanto used to do).

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

I feel like someone might not agree with me, but despite my lack of interest in Lucario, there is ONE thing that I really liked about it when it was a riolu. And that would be it's relationship with Pikachu and Raboot. Seriously, usually Pokemon creates dynamics in pairs, but these three were a trio before Raboot and Riolu evolved and it was so unique and cute to watch. Not to mention Pikachu actually felt like Pikachu while interacting with these two(JN030 being the exception), like that small moment between him and riolu during the Bea rematch. I liked how Raboot was the cold and quiet one with a soft side, how Pikachu was the cheerful and supportive friend, and how riolu was just overly excited and overly stubborn about literally everything. If there were any dynamic that I think Journeys actually made me care about, it was these three.

Spoiler

And then the Darkest Day arc hit, Lucario and Raboot evolved, Pikachu's personality change became ten times more evident with the lack of pokemon, and this trio ceased to exist, with the bare minimum of this new "Cinderace and Lucario" dynamic created to replace it. Even more ridiculous, the episode that literally established this new dynamic involved them working together to save Pikachu, who, need I remind you, was their closest friend at this point. I'm honestly still kind of bummed that this very interesting dynamic was scrapped in favor of...whatever the heck is going on now.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

I feel like someone might not agree with me, but despite my lack of interest in Lucario, there is ONE thing that I really liked about it when it was a riolu. And that would be it's relationship with Pikachu and Raboot. Seriously, usually Pokemon creates dynamics in pairs, but these three were a trio before Raboot and Riolu evolved and it was so unique and cute to watch. Not to mention Pikachu actually felt like Pikachu while interacting with these two(JN030 being the exception), like that small moment between him and riolu during the Bea rematch. I liked how Raboot was the cold and quiet one with a soft side, how Pikachu was the cheerful and supportive friend, and how riolu was just overly excited and overly stubborn about literally everything. If there were any dynamic that I think Journeys actually made me care about, it was these three.

Spoiler

View attachment 150297
View attachment 150298View attachment 150302View attachment 150303View attachment 150304

And then the Darkest Day arc hit, Lucario and Raboot evolved, Pikachu's personality change became ten times more evident with the lack of pokemon, and this trio ceased to exist, with the bare minimum of this new "Cinderace and Lucario" dynamic created to replace it. Even more ridiculous, the episode that literally established this new dynamic involved them working together to save Pikachu, who, need I remind you, was their closest friend at this point. I'm honestly still kind of bummed that this very interesting dynamic was scrapped in favor of...whatever the heck is going on now.

They thought a Pikachu - Grookey - Eevee friendship was more interesting than this

 

[Jewel the Quaxly]

They thought a Pikachu - Grookey - Eevee friendship was more interesting than this

Honestly can't see how. And even then, the dynamic here is mostly "two mischievous pokemon that act like pets plus one".

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

It still disappoints me that we never got the typical Pokemon get seperated from their trainers episode with Pikachu, Raboot, Sobble, Grookey, and Riolu.

 

[RetroPokeFan]

They thought a Pikachu - Grookey - Eevee friendship was more interesting than this

They don't really have much of a dynamic at all. At least you could say that for Pikachu, Riolu and Raboot up until the Darkest Day but I always feel as if these three feel so disconnected from each other (Eevee especially to the point where it might as well just be Pikachu and Grookey).

 

[FluffleFi]

Its sad, really, cause on paper Ash has a pretty amazing team this time around; Pikachu(and Mr.Mime if you wanna count him), Dragonite, Gengar, Lucario, Sirfetch'd and Dracovish. Its the kind of team he wouldn't normally have until near the end of the saga. If this team was handled like previous teams it'd likely be one of the best he's ever had, the kind of team I could realistically see beating Leon. Or at least give us a damn good battle. Its just a real shame how they're being handled. Their screentime is all over the place, little to no interactions between them and I can't even remember if any of them are going through any kind of arc, if there are any. I've never looked at the Pokemon anime like its the best thing in the world and I know its mostly aimed at a younger audience, but it has its charms. For me my favorite aspect was watching the various Pokemon bounce off each other. The rivalry between Snivy and Emolga, the way Pikachu was protective of Togepi, the friendship between Scraggy and Axew, ect. Those all lasted the their whole respective seasons..and yet this season they bring up a dynamic and immediately drop it. How do you give an entire episode dedicated to Lucario Cinderace(and from what I know their relationship is pretty entertaining)only to drop it not soon after? I hope to god this disjointed team management doesn't carry on into whatever comes after Journeys.

 

[Enzo]

Journeys has this very weird thing where the writers seems excited to write about something but they all get bored of it midway through and leave it in the limbo.

JN introduced some genuinely interesting things but they never got brought up again. Where's the Kangaskhan that raised Pikachu as a Pichu? Will we even see her again? Where's Horace? You know, the boy Goh supossedly had a great friendship with that took over a whole episode where Ash wasn't even allowed to appear in and was never brought up again? Chloe and that Galarian Ponyta? Nothing will come out of it? Sirfetch'd's supposed rivalry with Goh's Farfetch'd and with Riolu/Lucario? Where did that went? And all of those ''dynamics'' they teased us with with and never saw the light of the day again?

Why even bother doing something with all of this if nothing came out of anything???

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

Meanwhile I am all alone in a corner weeping for the lost potential of Raboot and Sobble's friendship
It's so far gone now that Cinderace and Inteleon aren't even allowed to be in the same scene anymore

Honestly can't see how. And even then, the dynamic here is mostly "two mischievous pokemon that act like pets plus one".

They don't really have much of a dynamic at all. At least you could say that for Pikachu, Riolu and Raboot up until the Darkest Day but I always feel as if these three feel so disconnected from each other (Eevee especially to the point where it might as well just be Pikachu and Grookey).

No no. I agree with you both on this.

Raboot - Riolu - Pikachu >>>>> Grookey - Eevee - Pikachu

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Honestly, Grookey/Eevee/Pikachu don't have enough interactions to even say that they have a dynamic, so idk why people are claiming that they do, let alone that they're a "replacement" for Raboot/Riolu/Pikachu. Eevee and Grookey only really interacted once, in the episode where they were tasked with delivering medicine, and Pikachu hasn't interected with either of them at all beyond the most casual of ways. So yeah, don't try to say that those three are a "new" dynamic because that's far from true. They don't have anywhere near enough interactions to even qualify as such.

And speaking of dynamics, what happened to Yamper? He was treated as Eevee's BFF for like three episodes and now he's practically disappeared off the face of the earth. Let him partake in the Eeveelution epsidoes at least. Help his baby sister decide what she wants to become.