Controversial opinions

[Unireon]

You don’t watch JN then how do you get news on the anime? From here

I can still opine or try to guess on Previews, read Reviews or watch Reactions.

Just left the past week, and I was unusually/very patient with Journeys but that is over.

 

[isrrael120]

Sadly, polarization like that happens everywhere. You position yourself ever so slightly against something, there’ll always be some idiot that assumes you’re all the way down the other end of the spectrum. Narrow minded individuals can’t consider that you aren’t as radical in your opinions as they are.

It happens all the time everywhere, it is already common for me to see that!

 

[FelipePR]

So yeah, I think that if Charizard as a species had been handled more like Ash's was, it likely wouldn't have become the polarizing figure that it is today. Notice how none of the other hyper-popular and mascot-ish Pokemon get anywhere near the amount of scorn that Charizard does despite being every bit as prominent: it's because unlike Charizard, they don't feel the need to make every other species look worse at their expense. I certainly haven't seen any Gengar-centric marketing that makes every other Ghost-type suck for example, for example. Nor does Lucario get presented as the greatest Fighting-type to walk the earth just because it can wield Aura. Heck, even Pikachu doesn't treat Raichu as badly as Charizard does literally everyone else these days.

Well, I didn't know that charizard was touted around by the marketing team as the biggest fire-breather to set foot on the face of the earth.

The reason Gengar or Lucario doesn't have as much rage is that they weren't depicted, in their time, as Ash's Ace Pokémon, but rather as great Pokémon that Ash didn't have. In other words, they didn't have the exacerbated protagonism that Charizard and Greninja had in their time, that is, a forced media exposure, that brought to both love and hate.

Ash's charizard in the anime, in fact, was excessively proud and looked at the other Pokemon in a derogatory way. And that certainly counts against the Pokémon, but that was a characteristic of that specific Pokémon, and a story driven element, and not a portrayal of the specie. Ash's Charizard exerted a role of opposition to Ash like trainer, despising him and even other Pokemons.

Despite that, the marketing team never treated him or the the specie like gods above mortals, or the supreme fire Pokémon. In fact, Ash's charizard can only reach his full potential when he accepted his limitations and accepted Ash as its trainer and all other pokemons as his equals, and even so he didn't achieve win the Pokémon League.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Well, I didn't know that charizard was touted around by the marketing team as the biggest fire-breather to set foot on the face of the earth.

The reason Gengar or Lucario doesn't have as much rage is that they weren't depicted, in their time, as Ash's Ace Pokémon, but rather as great Pokémon that Ash didn't have. In other words, they didn't have the exacerbated protagonism that Charizard and Greninja had in their time, that is, a forced media exposure, that brought both love and hate.

Ash's charizard in the anime, in fact, was excessively proud and looked at the other Pokemon in a derogatory way. And that certainly counts against the Pokémon, but that was a characteristic of that specific Pokémon, and a story driven element, and not a portrayal of the species. Ash's Charizard exerted a role of opposition to Ash like trainer, despising him and even other Pokemons.

Despite that, the marketing team never treated him like the specie like Gods above mortals, or the supreme fire Pokémon. In fact, Ash's charizard can only reach his full potential when he accepted his limitations and accepted Ash a trainer and all other pokemons as his equals, and even so he didn't achieve winning the league.

Yeah, that's what I meant: I was saying that Ash's Charizard specifically was hendled better than current Charizards are, not the other way around. In fact, one of the reasons I don't like the way modern Charizard portrayals are done is precisely because they make all the development Ash's Charizard had to go through look pointless, because these days Charizard the species is just treated as though they're inherently unstoppable juggernauts just by virtue of being Charizards while Ash's actually had to earn his power, and even then still wasn't portrayed as unbeatable.

 

[FelipePR]

Yeah, that's what I meant: I was saying that Ash's Charizard specifically was hendled better than current Charizards are, not the other way around. In fact, one of the reasons I don't like the way modern Charizard portrayals are done is precisely because they make all the development Ash's Charizard had to go through look pointless, because these days Charizard the species is just treated as though they're inherently unstoppable juggernauts just by virtue of being Charizards while Ash's actually had to earn his power, and even then still wasn't portrayed as unbeatable.

Well I understand your point, Charizard has had the privilege of, more recently, be the Ace of some of the best Pokémon trainers, Alan and Leon. So, it might seem that the species is made up of juggernauts.

Not that this is always endorsed, we've already had the minor apparitions of charizards who haven't shown much battle prowess or even a spirit of empowerment.

On the other hand, Pokémon Company has, more than once, placed Charizard in a position of power, such as the fact that it has two mega-evolutions, Gigantamax version and is the Ace of Leon/Red, the most acclaimed trainers.

What I meant is that people's hatred of the species is not because it is directly depicted as inherently unstoppable or superior Pokémon. For instance, Gyarados is almost always presented as a Juggernaut Pokémon too, but it receives much more love than hate.

The problem with Charizard goes beyond how it is depcited, relates to the privileges it has, with the position of power it usually occupies, with excessive media exposure and others factors. In short, It is a multilateral issue.

What I initially wanted to say is that only Ash's Charizard treated other Pokémon and species in a derogatory way. Others ones have only been unreasonably elevated to a position of power, needlessly paired with prominent trainers with a lot of exposure, in order to booster the Pokémon image.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

For instance, Gyarados is almost always presented as a Juggernaut Pokémon too, but it receives much more love than hate.

I'm not sure that Gyarados is really an apt comparison, though, because that species is still allowed to actually be beaten in battle. Heck, Ash's Pikachu defeated Misty's Mega Gyarados just last saga, for instance. And Lance's Shiny Gyarados got pummeled by Leon's Charizard (though to be fair, literally anyone would have lost against that thing).

Charizard on the other hand has been consistently portrayed as beating everyone without breaking so much as a sweat, and we've barely seen a member if the species lose a battle since the end if Gen 5. The only two exceptions are Trevor's Charizard (who barely counts, since it lost to another Charizard anyway), and Kiawe's Charizard being beaten by Ash's Lycanroc (and the former is explicitly an elder, and yet still almost won, implying that it would have stomped Lycanroc had it been in its prime).

Also, what I meant by "Charizard treats every other Pokemon horribly recently" was from a marketing standpoint, not a character one. Because whenever Charizard has to be the star, every other Pokemon all of a sudden is useless and pathetic just so that it looks good by comparison, something that none of the other popular and marketable mons seem to need to do when they star in something.

 

[FelipePR]

Charizard on the other hand has been consistently portrayed as beating everyone without breaking so much as a sweat, and we've barely seen a member if the species lose a battle since the end if Gen 5. The only two exceptions are Trevor's Charizard (who barely counts, since it lost to another Charizard anyway), and Kiawe's Charizard being beaten by Ash's Lycanroc (and the former is explicitly an elder, and yet still almost won, implying that it would have stomped Lycanroc had it been in its prime).

Also, what I meant by "Charizard treats every other Pokemon horribly recently" was from a marketing standpoint, not a character one. Because whenever Charizard has to be the star, every other Pokemon all of a sudden is useless and pathetic just so that it looks good by comparison, something that none of the other popular and marketable mons seem to need to do when they star in something.

- You are not wrong. I would just like to point out that Alan's charizard lost against Siebold's blastoise.
- And that Leon is not supposed to be defeated.
- And finally, I ask: If Alan's Ace were another Pokémon, would he be as hated as Charizard?
- It is a more multifactorial problem than, at first glance, it seems.

 

[DankOverlord]

- And finally, I ask, if Alan's Ace were another Pokémon, would he be as hated as Charizard?

If it was a Lucario, then yeah. If it was instead say... A Gallade, Swampert, Blaziken, Sceptile, Pidgeot. Maybe not quite.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

It's actually all sorts of heartbreaking that Ash's Journeys Team AKA the Team with offscreened development and zero chemistry whatsoever is going to be hailed as the Best Team Ash has ever had because it's going to be the Team that takes down Cynthia and Leon

It's a completely slap in the face to all of Ash's other Teams (yes even Unova) who we saw actually getting development and having bonds with each other

 

[Daren]

It's actually all sorts of heartbreaking that Ash's Journeys Team AKA the Team with offscreened development and zero chemistry whatsoever is going to be hailed as the Best Team Ash has ever had because it's going to be the Team that takes down Cynthia and Leon

It's a completely slap in the face to all of Ash's other Teams (yes even Unova) who we saw actually getting development and having bonds with each other

That's why I (probably vainly) hope the reserves get used for the Master Eight. At least let the Pokémon from past series who had to struggle onscreen and didn't coast on a bunch of off-screen battle get some glory instead of being forgotten as the groups who lost.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

pls redemption for Torterra, Torkoal, and pretty much everyone in the Unova team that isn't Pignite or Krookodile.

But that's already nine Pokemon in total. And there's obviously not gonna be anywhere near enough battles for literally all of Ash's reserves to compete by the Master Class even if every battle there were a full 6v6, and I know for a fact that there's a lot of people wishing that certain reserves get used regardless of if they need redemption or not.

With all that said, it's obvious that the Journeys team is going to be the one to fight Leon regardless of any other factors.

 

[Unireon]

That's why I don't want Satoshi winning against Dande.

His Pokemon would try, but ultimately be defeated.

For Shirona, I prefer the Sinnoh Team being used and Dodatoise getting a win.

 

[Enzo]

As I've said before: Ash should've been allowed to use reserves through JN alongisde his new team.

It's like... they are dead serious wanting to sell the JN team as the ''Champion Buster team'' and it's not working. Nothing in the canon can convince me this team can actually take on Cynthia, Leon and other strong, champion-level trainers. No way in HELL anyone from this team, besides maybe (and it's a super far shot at that), maybe Dragonite can actually collide head-to-head-toe-to-toe with Cynthia's Garchomp without being forced as hell. And it's all due to a simple fact: this team is forgotten by the writers themselves and is only subjected to off-screen land development.

How do you want me to buy the idea this is a Champion-level if you don't show me it's battle and developments and arcs? How do you wanna convince me that Sirfetch'd and/or Dracovish are better and more capable at taking Leon's Pokémon down than Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Greninja or any of Ash's stronger mons???

Nah. And @Rainbow-Rain said this perfectly: Ash's older mons/teams not being allowed to participate in the battles is a massive slap and spit on the face of all of them.

 

[DankOverlord]

As I've said before: Ash should've been allowed to use reserves through JN alongisde his new team.

It's like... they are dead serious wanting to sell the JN team as the ''Champion Buster team'' and it's not working. Nothing in the canon can convince me this team can actually take on Cynthia, Leon and other strong, champion-level trainers. No way in HELL anyone from this team, besides maybe (and it's a super far shot at that), maybe Dragonite can actually collide head-to-head-toe-to-toe with Cynthia's Garchomp without being forced as hell. And it's all due to a simple fact: this team is forgotten by the writers themselves and is only subjected to off-screen land development.

How do you want me to buy the idea this is a Champion-level if you don't show me it's battle and developments and arcs? How do you wanna convince me that Sirfetch'd and/or Dracovish are better and more capable at taking Leon's Pokémon down than Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Greninja or any of Ash's stronger mons???

Nah. And @Rainbow-Rain said this perfectly: Ash's older mons/teams not being allowed to participate in the battles is a massive slap and spit on the face of all of them.

Simple Dracovish can just cheese Garchomp with Ice Fang or Dragonite with Dragon Dance + Deus Ex Meteor and then Shillcario can sweep the rest

 

[Galactic_V]

Just like Ghost Diplocaulus said, I believe the whole Isshu team with the exception of Waruvial and Chaobu has a necessity to come back and have some battles. I'd love to see these Pokemon more developed, with better moves and much stronger (especially Kenhallow that, despite being a fully evolved 'mon, was pretty ridiculous in basically all of her battles and had a very petty moveset).

Who knows, they could pull a Magmarashi and evolve Tsutarja at least once, it was something I wished so much to happen in BW and that made me so disappointed when it didn't occur.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

As I've said before: Ash should've been allowed to use reserves through JN alongisde his new team.

It's like... they are dead serious wanting to sell the JN team as the ''Champion Buster team'' and it's not working. Nothing in the canon can convince me this team can actually take on Cynthia, Leon and other strong, champion-level trainers. No way in HELL anyone from this team, besides maybe (and it's a super far shot at that), maybe Dragonite can actually collide head-to-head-toe-to-toe with Cynthia's Garchomp without being forced as hell. And it's all due to a simple fact: this team is forgotten by the writers themselves and is only subjected to off-screen land development.

How do you want me to buy the idea this is a Champion-level if you don't show me it's battle and developments and arcs? How do you wanna convince me that Sirfetch'd and/or Dracovish are better and more capable at taking Leon's Pokémon down than Charizard, Sceptile, Infernape, Greninja or any of Ash's stronger mons???

Nah. And @Rainbow-Rain said this perfectly: Ash's older mons/teams not being allowed to participate in the battles is a massive slap and spit on the face of all of them.

Oh wait. I know why, it's because they're mostly Shillmons and they'll win sorely based on their Popularity alone

Lucario will probably defeat Cynthia itself.

You know why? Not because of any merits by itself.

But because it has the virtue of simply being a Lucario.

Lucario will keep achieving not because of what it Did but because of what it IS

 

[Daren]

With all that said, it's obvious that the Journeys team is going to be the one to fight Leon regardless of any other factors.

You know I'm not actually quite so sure about that. Both previous arcs that brought in reserve use at the end had them in the final battle. You could argue Paul was the "real" final battle of the Sinnoh league but that team had a specific reason to need to defeat Paul themselves; unless I forgot something Pikachu is the only JN member whose battled Leon in the past.
Meanwhile the Hoenn party lost to Brandon only for the Kanto reserves to sweep in and take the win.

I'm still hoping we could one day see an all-star team of some of his best Pokémon from as many regions as possible (XY was sadly the last chance to represent every series in one battle) but I'm not expecting it.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

You know I'm not actually quite so sure about that. Both previous arcs that brought in reserve use at the end had them in the final battle. You could argue Paul was the "real" final battle of the Sinnoh league but that team had a specific reason to need to defeat Paul themselves; unless I forgot something Pikachu is the only JN member whose battled Leon in the past.
Meanwhile the Hoenn party lost to Brandon only for the Kanto reserves to sweep in and take the win.

I'm still hoping we could one day see an all-star team of some of his best Pokémon from as many regions as possible (XY was sadly the last chance to represent every series in one battle) but I'm not expecting it.

Ash hasn't used a reserve for the final battle since Sinnoh

I doubt that's happening here

 

[Sai]

Ash hasn't used a reserve for the final battle since Sinnoh

I doubt that's happening here

There were reasons for that though:

BW was a fresh start and using old Pokémon would interfere with Ash being treated more like a beginner again.

XY was self-contained in general and the league also only had two full battles shown so there was no time for old Pokémon.

SM of course focused on the Alola dynamic between the SM characters and Pokémon so it wouldn’t make sense to use old Pokémon there.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

BW was a fresh start and using old Pokémon would interfere with Ash being treated more like a beginner again.

Except BW also brought back Ash's Charizard for a couple of episodes.