Controversial opinions

[Hidden Mew]

How in the hell did Iris's Axew tank all those hits from Cynthia's Garchomp?

Also Axew should've evolved here

https://twitter.com/mana_chan__/status/1472389441259978756?t=5PpxpHAw3tt8b7TU9cyeMQ&s=19

They wanted to make Axew, and by extension Iris, look a lot stronger than they reasonably should have been. BW pretty much always overhyped Iris as this special gifted trainer whenever she got focus, but her skills didn't really match up with that hype in my opinion. Her skills as a trainer were mediocre at best, but they put her on a pedestal with winning nearly a hundred battles in a row before even becoming a trainer and being set up as a new Gym Leader.

Axew evolving during that battle could have made it becoming a Haxorus when Iris returned in Journeys more believable, but I also think it would have been a tough sell to make Axew evolve at any point in BW. It didn't battle that often, Iris didn't actively train it and it kept learning overpowered moves to give the illusion that it was stronger than it was. To be fair, it only used Outrage once and they kept using Giga Impact instead, but it still felt like they were trying too hard to make Axew look strong with overpowered moves as opposed to making its development slow and steady throughout BW. They really didn't know if they wanted Axew to be the cute useless baby Pokemon or the strong secondary mascot, so they decided to do both. If they really wanted to make Axew evolve at least once in BW, its strength really should have been more consistent and its development should have been handled better.

 

[Sai]

Retroactively I actually like that Iris vs Cynthia battle more now since Iris became champion. During BW it felt like it just happened randomly because Iris and Cynthia use dragons but now it oddly feels like retroactive foreshadowing for 10 years later about Iris and Axew's glow up. I know it wasn't planned back then but I feel like it fits well now. It's like Iris being a new younger champion learning from an experienced one.

 

[nickdt]

You know how everyone talks about Grookey?

Am I the only person who notices that Monkey Pokemon are almost never handled well in the Anime?

Except for Infernape (and even he sucks in JN)

Remember Aipom's ping pong?

Remember the Passimian Black face controversy which resulted that episode getting banned in the States?

Now look at Grookey.

The writer's have no idea what to do with monkeys

Pansage is the exception as well.

 

[FluffleFi]

You know how everyone talks about Grookey?

Am I the only person who notices that Monkey Pokemon are almost never handled well in the Anime?

Except for Infernape (and even he sucks in JN)

Remember Aipom's ping pong?

Remember the Passimian Black face controversy which resulted that episode getting banned in the States?

Now look at Grookey.

The writer's have no idea what to do with monkeys

Lets not forget Primape, who showed up and didn't do much, got some development near the end of an episode and got traded away at the very end of said episode. I think its only ever been referenced in the opening and endings of a few series.

 

[Soniman]

Failing to see how Infernape "sucks" in JN when nothing about his personality or competency changed it was just he didn't get to battle a legendary single handedly and it was more a team effort by him Goh and Gary ‍

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

Failing to see how Infernape "sucks" in JN when nothing about his personality or competency changed it was just he didn't get to battle a legendary single handedly and it was more a team effort by him Goh and Gary ‍

Not Infernape himself but the way he was handled is what sucks I meant

 

[Lightning Flame Blast]

You know how everyone talks about Grookey?

Am I the only person who notices that Monkey Pokemon are almost never handled well in the Anime?

Except for Infernape (and even he sucks in JN)

Remember Aipom's ping pong?

Remember the Passimian Black face controversy which resulted that episode getting banned in the States?

Now look at Grookey.

The writer's have no idea what to do with monkeys

Also Chilli’s Pansear, who got a whole plot about how it was getting beaten left and right and had an entire episode getting stronger, only to get bowled over by an ice type trainer on its next appearence.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Retroactively I actually like that Iris vs Cynthia battle more now since Iris became champion. During BW it felt like it just happened randomly because Iris and Cynthia use dragons but now it oddly feels like retroactive foreshadowing for 10 years later about Iris and Axew's glow up. I know it wasn't planned back then but I feel like it fits well now. It's like Iris being a new younger champion learning from an experienced one.

I think that's giving BW way too much credit. It definitely doesn't come off as retroactive foreshadowing in large part because I highly doubt that they planned to make Iris the Unova Champion in the anime. I'm still positive that they only made that decision in Journeys because they were set on making her match her video game counterpart, as opposed to being a natural development for her anime characterization. She wasn't even interested in becoming a Gym Leader in BW, but she somehow became a Champion instead, which I still think is completely unbelievable. Not to mention Journeys was no where near the planning stages when BW was airing. I can understand liking the notion of a younger champion learning from an experienced one, but the battle doesn't really come off any better or as an example of foreshadowing just because they forced Iris in the Unova Champion title out of nowhere in the anime.

Although, I never thought that the battle was random exactly. Iris wants to be a Dragon Master and while Cynthia isn't a Dragon type trainer, her signature Pokemon is Garchomp. The idea of Iris wanting to battle against a powerful Dragon Pokemon like Cynthia's Garchomp is pretty reasonable and Cynthia did appear in B2/W2, so she didn't come out of nowhere either. My problems all came down to how they used the match to put Iris on more of a pedestal and giving Axew an underserved overpowered move. It was also a bit much to make Axew land a hit that actually affected Garchomp when even Paul's much more well trained Pokemon couldn't affect it at all during DP.

As for Infernape, I think people were expecting it to be more heavily featured due to the promotion. I can kind of understand that when people aren't happy with Ash's Journeys team and the idea of a fan favorite Pokemon like Infernape coming back sounds cool, but I think it's more of an issue of high expectations not being met and/or misleading promotion rather than Infernape being treated poorly in Journeys.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Ash’s Kalos League loss was the most embarrassing league loss. Mastered Ash-Greninja was made to be and should be an automatic win button no matter how strong the opponent is. The whole team sans Pikachu choked.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Axew evolving during that battle could have made it becoming a Haxorus when Iris returned in Journeys more believable, but I also think it would have been a tough sell to make Axew evolve at any point in BW. It didn't battle that often, Iris didn't actively train it and it kept learning overpowered moves to give the illusion that it was stronger than it was.

To be fair, that’s exactly how most Pokémon in Journeys cough cough Cinderace and Inteleon cough cough evolved.

 

[Sai]

I loved how they handled Axew from BW2 onward. Yeah the first half of the series it was just there, but gradually showing it had some hidden power and learning new moves showed its potential. In a way it was kind of like Togepi again only this time showing it could battle, randomly learning new moves was similar to Togepi using metronome every so often, and now Iris brought out its power.

It should have evolved back in BW, but the writing back then wasn't the best so most pokemon arcs were left unfinished back then, but they made up for it now.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I loved how they handled Axew from BW2 onward. Yeah the first half of the series it was just there, but gradually showing it had some hidden power and learning new moves showed its potential. In a way it was kind of like Togepi again only this time showing it could battle, randomly learning new moves was similar to Togepi using metronome every so often, and now Iris brought out its power.

It should have evolved back in BW, but the writing back then wasn't the best so most pokemon arcs were left unfinished back then, but they made up for it now.

I really don't think that Axew was handled well at all. It was still pretty much just there throughout all of BW from what I remember. The only new moves it learned were Outrage and Giga Impact, both of which felt more like undeserved upgrades as opposed to showing that it had hidden power or potential for Iris to unleash. I don't think it's quite similar to Togepi using Metronome. Togepi didn't come off as powerful or full of untapped potential when using Metronome. It came off more like they wanted to make it mysterious since it never used the move on command and they kept thinking throughout at least the Orange Islands that Togepi was too young to know any attacks. Iris did use Axew in battle more than Misty did with Togepi, but that doesn't say much and I don't recall Axew being used that frequently either. She didn't even use Axew against Drayden, arguably her most important battle in the series, because they had already given her a Dragonite.

It's also hard for me to believe that it was handled better from BW2 onward when they still had the infamous Axew getting lost in the middle of the Unova League episode. That's a big reason why I think they went back and forth on making Axew the cute useless baby Pokemon and the strong secondary mascot. Even the episode after it learned Outrage, they were trying to rescue it. Axew's development was anything but consistent. I don't think it could have believably evolved into even a Fraxture during BW. It would have felt like another undeserved accomplished handed to Iris on a silver plate as opposed to something she and Axew earned.

If I liked Iris, found her storyline to be engaging or even if Axew's development was handled more properly in BW, I'd probably be at least okay with it becoming a Haxours and Iris being the Unova Champion. As it is, it still feels way more forced and unbelievable to me. It doesn't really feel like they've made up for Axew not evolving in BW to me, but rather that they're trying way too hard to make Iris match her role in the games. If Iris was not the Champion in B2/W2, I highly doubt that she would have become the Unova Champion in Journeys. She probably would have just become a proper Gym Leader, which would have been a bit more believable in my opinion.

 

[Unireon]

I really don't think that Axew was handled well at all. It was still pretty much just there throughout all of BW from what I remember. The only new moves it learned were Outrage and Giga Impact, both of which felt more like undeserved upgrades as opposed to showing that it had hidden power or potential for Iris to unleash.

Outrage is an egregious case, I used to think that it was a Deus ex Machina.....

Since back in BW its only purpose was to avoid having Iris lose to Luke.....
The latter was dominating the battle, and then Kibago somehow learns Outrage and turns the tables.
I will concede that I am biased since I wanted Satoshi to battle Luke.

Still, after that the movement just vanished until Journeys.
New Power as the Plot Demands?

 

[Hidden Mew]

Outrage is an egregious case, I used to think that it was a Deus ex Machina.....

Since back in BW its only purpose was to avoid having Iris lose to Luke.....
The latter was dominating the battle, and then Kibago somehow learns Outrage and turns the tables.
I will concede that I am biased since I wanted Satoshi to battle Luke.

Still, after that the movement just vanished until Journeys.
New Power as the Plot Demands?

It pretty much was a deus ex machina. If it wasn't for Axew to suddenly learn Outrage out of nowhere, Iris would have lost and Luke would have gone on to the finals of that tournament, which would have made much more sense. The tournament wasn't really building up to Ash vs. Iris and even if it was, Axew learning an overpowered move out of nowhere was the worst way to justify Iris getting to the finals. Like everything in Iris' storyline, it felt like an undeserved accomplished handed to her. She should have lost and realized that Axew needed more training in order to get stronger.

I'm not sure why they didn't use the move again in BW, especially when they had no problem giving Axew Giga Impact, but it really made the first Club Battle tournament really bad in my opinion. I don't think it was good before that match, especially when none of the battles were particularly good from what I remember, but it was one of the more frustrating moments in BW for me.

 

[Sai]

Pokemon having hidden potential and learning new moves randomly has always been a thing in the anime. Axew learning some dragon moves was tapping into its hidden powers, and if BW was written better, we would have seen Iris be able to bring out its power and would have become her main pokemon instead of Dragonite when it evolved in BW2. I don't know if it was marketing that got in the way or what, but I always figured she got a Dragonite because that was originally going to be Haxorus' role but they chose not to evolve it. Haxorus disobeying Iris for awhile would have also been another nod to the OS/Charizard that the BW series liked to mimic so much.

But it doesn't matter now since it evolved anyway.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Pokemon having hidden potential and learning new moves randomly has always been a thing in the anime. Axew learning some dragon moves was tapping into its hidden powers, and if BW was written better, we would have seen Iris be able to bring out its power and would have become her main pokemon instead of Dragonite when it evolved in BW2. I don't know if it was marketing that got in the way or what, but I always figured she got a Dragonite because that was originally going to be Haxorus' role but they chose not to evolve it. Haxorus disobeying Iris for awhile would have also been another nod to the OS/Charizard that the BW series liked to mimic so much.

But it doesn't matter now since it evolved anyway.

Pokemon have learned new moves randomly before, but the difference is that Axew only learned overpowered moves to give off the illusion that it was much stronger than it actually was. It didn't come off like it had hidden potential because it was so inconsistent. One episode Axew was using Giga Impact on Cynthia's Garchomp and in another episode, it was lost and needed to be rescued. It definitely didn't help that it wasn't used often in battle either.

Given how quickly they dropped the whole Axew wants to evolve plot point, I highly doubt that they really planned to make it evolve into a Haxorus. It is possible that the marketing got in the way when unevolved Pokemon tend to be more marketable, but Axew never seemed that popular and they weren't interested in giving Axew consistent development either. Admittedly, Haxorus disobeying Iris might have worked a bit better than Dragonite. That subplot always felt so pointless to me when Iris gained Dragontie's trust the same way she did in its capture episode. It still might not have been good regarldess, especially when I don't think Iris learned anything from the Excadrill situation, but it might have made more sense or felt less contrived. Still, I don't think that Axew was ever really going to evolve in BW and certainly not into a Haxorus.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Pokemon having hidden potential and learning new moves randomly has always been a thing in the anime.

A mechanic can be a thing, but the way it’s written and presented can still be bad writing.

 

[Squad_Broke_Down]

I've got a big one:

Chloe should not ultimately become a Performer.
This point got me thinking after I saw the recent teasers for Pokemon Journeys in 2022.

The reason is that while she can dip her hand into the performer trend a bit, I think having a fourth female traveling companion as a Performer will just get stale. At least have some trainer who has a unique goal and not just some "I wanna be a performer", since we've already had May, Dawn, and to some extent Serena for the job. Iris did have a unique goal (although it was horribly utilized in the anime) as did many of Ash's Alolan companions, so why can't Chloe have a unique goal? Perhaps have her become something like an aspiring professor like her father or perhaps even another Pokemon Trainer like Ash.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

something like an aspiring professor

I think this is what Go will realise is his calling at the end of JN.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I've got a big one:

Chloe should not ultimately become a Performer.
This point got me thinking after I saw the recent teasers for Pokemon Journeys in 2022.

The reason is that while she can dip her hand into the performer trend a bit, I think having a fourth female traveling companion as a Performer will just get stale. At least have some trainer who has a unique goal and not just some "I wanna be a performer", since we've already had May, Dawn, and to some extent Serena for the job. Iris did have a unique goal (although it was horribly utilized in the anime) as did many of Ash's Alolan companions, so why can't Chloe have a unique goal? Perhaps have her become something like an aspiring professor like her father or perhaps even another Pokemon Trainer like Ash.

While I doubt that Chloe is going to become a Performer or a Coordinator, I don't think that it would be stale for her to become one. There's more behind May, Dawn and even Serena's storylines than just "I wanna be a performer" in my opinion, so there would be potentially something more behind Chloe's motivation too. Plus, considering that we haven't even seen a Contest or Showcase in years, it's hard to see it as something stale, especially when a lot of younger fans probably haven't seen these goals in the anime either. I never really had a problem with two Coordinators in a row and honestly they should have included Contests in XY for Serena too, so the idea that Chloe being the fourth female character becoming a Coordinator or Performer years after even Serena doesn't really seems like a bad thing to me either.

I'm fine with Chloe having her own different kind of goal of course and at this point, I can't really see her becoming a regular trainer like Ash going for battles or being a Coordinator. Being a Showcase Performer doesn't really seem like a good fit for her either. Being a researcher would fit more with her personality since she does seem to like learning about Pokemon. I just think that the idea of Chloe becoming a Coordinator or Performer would make her stale doesn't really make much sense, especially when it would most likely be just something she works towards off screen after Journeys wraps up.