Controversial opinions

[Soniman]

Greninja's track record is incredibly solid and has had many victories as long as a Charizard wasn't involved, I didn't think this was arguable otherwise. Dude took out two megas, had the advantage on a Chsmpion's Ace, and had a very rock solid track record even before it became Greninja so to say it got shafted is completely ridiculous to me I'm sorry lol

 

[Sai]

Personally I think aside from Torterra that Ash's least promoted fully evolved starter was Sceptile. Charizard of course got numerous returns and big battles over the years, Infernape was a huge part of DP's story and Paul rivalry, Greninja was a huge part of XY, and Incineroar was a major part of SM's development with Kukui the most powerful trainer of that region and his Incineroar.

Ash's Sceptile never really had any major storyline about it, the one thing where it lost all its moves after evolving was resolved literally 2 episodes later. Besides that aside from it being Ash's main pokemon in AG, it had no major rivals to defeat, no major storyline, and there wasn't anything unique or special about it. The fact that people remember it more for beating Darkrai than anything in AG says enough.

If it weren't due to Torterra's poor treatment in DP, Ash's Sceptile would be his least developed fully evolved starter and with the least impact on the series.

 

[Soniman]

Personally I think aside from Torterra that Ash's least promoted fully evolved starter was Sceptile. Charizard of course got numerous returns and big battles over the years, Infernape was a huge part of DP's story and Paul rivalry, Greninja was a huge part of XY, and Incineroar was a major part of SM's development with Kukui the most powerful trainer of that region and his Incineroar.

Ash's Sceptile never really had any major storyline about it, the one thing where it lost all its moves after evolving was resolved literally 2 episodes later. Besides that aside from it being Ash's main pokemon in AG, it had no major rivals to defeat, no major storyline, and there wasn't anything unique or special about it. The fact that people remember it more for beating Darkrai than anything in AG says enough.

If it weren't due to Torterra's poor treatment in DP, Ash's Sceptile would be his least developed fully evolved starter and with the least impact on the series.

Ash's Sceptile was just a very strong very competent Pokémon from the jump and pretty much had no big peaks or valleys, it was just a consistently good Pokémon from beginning to end, which I don't think is a bad thing. You'll find many people here complain about how Charizard/Infernape/Greninja ate up screen time from other teammates and we're getting way to much focus but pretty much no one says this about Sceptile as they were very conservative about when and how he was used. A small arc about dealing with its broken heart and confidence was all the writers felt was needed.

Sceptile is my favorite Pokémon ever and I can't say I'm dissatisfied with how it was utilized. It got good focus when appropriate, stepped back to let other AG members shine and ended it's career on a high note by taking out Darkrai.

 

[Hidden Mew]

To be fair, Sceptile defeating Darkrai was a pretty big deal, so of course that would be something fans would think of when Sceptile comes up. I don't think that not having a major storyline or major victories in AG makes it unmemorable or under developed. It was Ash's main Pokemon throughout AG, was shown to get consistently stronger and had some pretty solid battles under its belt. It didn't get the Charizard, Infernape or Greninja treatment in that they gave it a major subplot, but I don't think that Sceptile really needed it. It was just a solid Pokemon and easily one of, if not the best Grass Pokemon Ash currently has.

 

[Unireon]

I think that a balance of all three; Introduction, Development and Closure, is the ideal approach.

Among Satoshi's Full-Evolved Starters.
Jukain and Goukazaru are the ones that received the best treatment.
Lizardon got hurt by the later and heavy shilling of its species.
Gekkouga had a contrived release, that's the part I hated, but still the flop didn't sully its image.
The worst one is Dodatoise, the terrible mishandling it suffered did eclipse its pre-evolution consistency and competence.

Unluckily this thing died out with Journeys, to be replaced with other issues.....
Namely, the lack of relevant starters and no team-dynamics nor enough focus to give them essence/characterization.

Regarding Satoshi, I would like the writers finally dropping the pretense and outright say that he is the companion to Protagonist Gou.

 

[Soniman]

Regarding Satoshi, I would like the writers finally dropping the pretense and outright say that he is the companion to Protagonist Gou.

Is it a controversial statement to say I always thought people were overaxggerating when it comes to this complaint? Especially now? I mean the last two episodes were focused on Ash snd/or his Pokémon, he had a three episode arc with Lucario, and Goh in comparison had the one Kingdra episode and that's really it. Most of the other episodes are general focused or fillers. Just seems like a narrative people really want to be true than anything.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I've always thought that people were over exaggerating with the screentime between Ash and Goh. Ash generally doesn't come off like he's playing second to Goh, even from the start, but it does feel especially inaccurate to say that now when most of the recent episodes have been about Ash and/or his Pokemon. It always came off as a way to complain more about Goh than anything else to me. I'd agree that they haven't really handled the co-protagonist setup particularly well compared to how they handled Asn and Dawn's roles in DP, but I don't think that the screentime issue between Ash and Goh has ever been as bad as fans make it out to be.

 

[Squad_Broke_Down]

I've got some, which is in relation to specific Journeys Episodes I disliked/liked and where opinions appear to be a minority:
I didn't like JN037, JN047, and JN067 but liked JN062.

Yes, hate on me Alola stans, I didn't like JN037 because I felt it had so much missed potential. The main thing that hyped me up was how Ash's team would respond to Ash's Alola team and especially, the Alolan companions team, while the episode seemed to be a Goh focused one. Now look, I'm not one to hate on Goh, and I'm not a fan of the opinion that Goh is the worst Pokemon anime character (when we have stuff like Tobias and Cameron), but this episode should NOT have been a Goh focused episode. The concept of the Alola gang returning is fascinating especially because all kinds of unique storylines and other stuff could have been developed from there. Instead they didn't do much with the idea, and eventually the entire concept was eventually thrown away.
JN047 was unlikable for me because the episode just felt like a large waste of time. The episode also felt like JN041 or JN026's sub-episodes, but stretched out to a full episode (and both two-in-one were episodes I never liked in the first place).
JN067 was unlikable for me because just like JN047, I found the episode to be a huge waste of time. The rest of the episode was rather pointless because TR is causing all this mayhem, as it turns out, for no reason because they want to steal energy for Morpeko, but Morpeko didn't eat the energy. The other stuff was fun, but I personally didn't find the episode enjoyable (and for a similar reason I didn't like JN048).
JN062 was likeable because I didn't find Drizzile's depression after evolution as bad as many people thought about. I felt that if Drizzile recovering after an episode's worth of time would have been lazy at best and downright insulting at worst, as that's not the speed depression cures itself and I felt it would have also set a bad precedent for children in terms of talking about depression. What I did hate was how the anime handled the parts that came afterwards and that's where I feel most of the hate for the episode should have been directed.

 

[J Bouken]

Yes, hate on me Alola stans, I didn't like JN037 because I felt it had so much missed potential. The main thing that hyped me up was how Ash's team would respond to Ash's Alola team and especially, the Alolan companions team, while the episode seemed to be a Goh focused one. Now look, I'm not one to hate on Goh, and I'm not a fan of the opinion that Goh is the worst Pokemon anime character (when we have stuff like Tobias and Cameron), but this episode should NOT have been a Goh focused episode. The concept of the Alola gang returning is fascinating especially because all kinds of unique storylines and other stuff could have been developed from there. Instead they didn't do much with the idea, and eventually the entire concept was eventually thrown away.

I see why this annoys people, but it's consistent with how Journeys has approached returning characters.

The intention is to use older characters to push the current cast forward. For example, I know there was a bit of disappointment Dawn didn't get any new Pokemon, evolutions and such, but her initial return benefited Chloe and might end up pushing her towards Contests or Showcases. Gary's long-awaited return provoked Goh into participating in Project Mew. Korrina's return helped Ash finally use Mega Evolution. There's a harder focus on the present, rather than a celebration of the past.

Ideally, I'd want to see both happen (May's return in DP and Brock's/Misty's return in SM were perfect) but I kinda get why they've chosen this approach. With so many returning characters, they might have thought too much focus on the past would overshadow the current cast. Those characters had their time in the sun. There's not much point in kicking off a bunch of new storylines involving the Alola gang when, at most, they'll only show up one more time. Meanwhile, Goh and, to a lesser extent, Chloe are going to be around all the time, so they should be the priority.

Besides, I feel off screen developments are a touchy subject around here. Iris becoming Champion was a nice surprise, but also contentious since people wanted to see it happen on screen.

 

[Squad_Broke_Down]

I see why this annoys people, but it's consistent with how Journeys has approached returning characters.

The intention is to use older characters to push the current cast forward. For example, I know there was a bit of disappointment Dawn didn't get any new Pokemon, evolutions and such, but her initial return benefited Chloe and might end up pushing her towards Contests or Showcases. Gary's long-awaited return provoked Goh into participating in Project Mew. Korrina's return helped Ash finally use Mega Evolution. There's a harder focus on the present, rather than a celebration of the past.

Ideally, I'd want to see both happen (May's return in DP and Brock's/Misty's return in SM were perfect) but I kinda get why they've chosen this approach. With so many returning characters, they might have thought too much focus on the past would overshadow the current cast. Those characters had their time in the sun. There's not much point in kicking off a bunch of new storylines involving the Alola gang when, at most, they'll only show up one more time. Meanwhile, Goh and, to a lesser extent, Chloe are going to be around all the time, so they should be the priority.

Besides, I feel off screen developments are a touchy subject around here. Iris becoming Champion was a nice surprise, but also contentious since people wanted to see it happen on screen.

I guess the issue I have is that is that I just can't see how JN037 pushes Goh forward, and the fact that I wanted it to also push Ash forward as well.

 

[Soniman]

For the record older characters comming back to facilitate the growth of a new character is absolutely not a JN thing at all and has been a factor in character returns since they started doing them

 

[Hidden Mew]

Using older characters' return to help the growth of the current cast is perfectly fine. That's a big reason why May's DP return was held in such high regards since she contributed to Dawn's storyline as well. However, I really don't think that it would have hurt them to give Dawn at least some evolved Pokemon or brand new Pokemon. I don't think it would have affected the potential impact she has on Chloe or take up too much time beyond Ash reacting to Dawn's new Pokemon or pointing out that Buneary and/or Quilava evolved off-screen.

 

[nickdt]

Is it fair to say that out of all of Ash's Ace Pokemon Greninja was the one who was built up the most and ended up being treated the worst?

Greninja isnt even the kalos ace, Talonflame is

 

[HiroHunter]

Greninja isnt even the kalos ace, Talonflame is

Are you joking or?

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Are you joking or?

They think that Talonflame is stronger than base Greninja. Well Talonflame took on a legendary and Greninja didn’t so...
I don’t think that Talonflame is stronger then base Greninja as it tied with Alain’s Unfezant

 

[HiroHunter]

Well Talonflame took on a legendary and Greninja didn’t so...

Took on... Talonflame got one hit in before getting one shot.

 

[Eitarou]

Took on... Talonflame got one hit in before getting one shot.

And almost died because of it.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Okay, I think the Ash-Greninja bashing is getting a bit too out of hand, lol.

It is completely understandable why the frog is so much more controversial than the other regional aces, since it did notably get a much rawer deal compared to all the others: Charizard ended Gary's career and later became the first non-legendary Pokemon to beat a Legendary in fair combat; Sceptile defeated Tobias's Darkrai, something that no other Pokemon in the entire Sinnoh League (including Gym Leaders, mind you) was able to come even close to doing; Infernape finally proved Paul's notions about it wrong by defeating half of his team, which included its long-time rival Electivire, whom it beat despite being more damaged by the time the two were the last of their respective teams standing; Lycanroc was the one to finally earn Ash a game-originating League win; Torracat defeated the strongest Pokemon in Alola without needing to evolve; and let's not even get into all the stuff Pikachu has accomplished over the years. Even Krookodile -who I personally find to be fairly unimpressive compared to other regional aces (granted, this is because of how underpowered the Unova team was as a whole)- did some cool stuff like putting Iris's Dragonite in his place and beating Stephan's Sawk (who had well-established skill and power) despite a type disadvantage.

Meanwhile, Greninja's biggest achievement is defeating Sawyer's Sceptile, a Pokemon that he'd already beaten in battle many times before and had only lost to once, so it doesn't feel as satisfying an accomplishment as, say, Infernape beating Electivire or Dusk Lycanroc beating Midnight Lycanroc, rivals against whom those aces had lost to before but managed to win against at the right moment, making their victories come off as overcoming great adversities that had previously felt out of reach. By contrast, Greninja beating Sceptile just feels like retaking the lead after briefly being outrun. That obviously isn't nearly as cathartic.

Now, all of that said, I do feel like people are being too harsh on Greninja: I mean, it's not the poor frog's fault that the Charizard species has Plot Armor stronger than adamantium. Seriously, these days if you want to beat a Charizard in the anime, you need to be either a Legendary/Mythical or another Charizard. Be literally anything else and you're automatically gonna lose if you're up against a Charizard.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

Now, all of that said, I do feel like people are being too harsh on Greninja: I mean, it's not the poor frog's fault that the Charizard species has Plot Armor stronger than adamantium. Seriously, these days if you want to beat a Charizard in the anime, you need to be either a Legendary/Mythical or another Charizard. Be literally anything else and you're automatically gonna lose if you're up against a Charizard.

Unless you're Blastoise or Blaziken

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Unless you're Blastoise or Blaziken

Well, to be fair, Blaziken's win happened before the Era of Charizard Glorification, so who knows if it would actually win in this day and age.

As for Blastoise, that's a bit of a 50/50 case, because the poor turtle still had to go through two instances of getting pummeled by the dragon before finally being given a win (that's arguably of the consolation variety because that win came in the form of being owned by an Elite Four trainer), so...