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Controversial opinions

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Seeing as how these two screenshots from their respective episodes are quite similar, what with the sunset and saying goodbye to Greninja, it's not surprising people would compare them side-by-side like this, and that's just what I found on Twitter. And, just as people on Twitter have said, (and I agree with them,) the Journeys artstyle is, again, inferior. I know, I know, that's been beaten to death at this point. You can't argue with facts, though. But I think I can say now with certainty just what it is about Journey's artstyle that bugs me. It's that it's too.......simple. And not simple in a good way simple, simple in a lazy way. The backgrounds still look fantastic, why can't the characters? I'm just saying.
 
View attachment 159289View attachment 159291

Seeing as how these two screenshots from their respective episodes are quite similar, what with the sunset and saying goodbye to Greninja, it's not surprising people would compare them side-by-side like this, and that's just what I found on Twitter. And, just as people on Twitter have said, (and I agree with them,) the Journeys artstyle is, again, inferior. I know, I know, that's been beaten to death at this point. You can't argue with facts, though. But I think I can say now with certainty just what it is about Journey's artstyle that bugs me. It's that it's too.......simple. And not simple in a good way simple, simple in a lazy way. The backgrounds still look fantastic, why can't the characters? I'm just saying.
Thank you, I HATE how Ash looks in JN, sometimes more than SM. Link to the tweets? Were they praising, criticizing, or just comparing the JN art style?
 
Except for the fact that with the exception of Cinderace and maybe Inteleon, none of Goh's Pokémon have been portrayed as particularly more powerful than they have any right to be

And Even so, Cinderace and Inteleon would both get their asses curbstomped if they went up against literally any of the other former companion's Pokémon (sans maybe the Alola gang other than Kiawe and Gladion)

All of Goh's other Pokemon tho? They ALWAYS job on the rare occasions whenever Goh sends them out to fight
To drive that last point home, Goh's Scizor is supposedly one of his strongest Pokemon to the point that Darmanitan (a Fire-type) fears it, yet both times we've seen it in action it got absolutely destroyed by Pokemon that had a type disadvantage against it. So if we were to take the narrative's claims of Goh's Scizor being one of his strongest Pokemon at face value, the fact that it's been completely pathetic even when pitted against opponents it realistically should have fared well against should say a lot about how weak the rest of his Pokemon must be...
 
I respect your opinion but you can't just call it a 'fact'. All I see from that side-by-side comparison is that they're different, not better or worse just different. Journey's art-style may not be the best the series has ever had but it works, but XY art-style could be pretty stiff in places outside of battles. Honestly, if I had to choose a favorite art-style i'd have to go with Sun and Moon's.
 
I'm sure this isn't that new of a take, really, but I gotta say:

I hate the fact that Goh consistently and frequently gets gifted new Pokémon in a silver platter and comes out completely unharmed while everyone else who "dared" to get a Pokémon that they ultimately didn't deserve (at the time, mind you) was severely and violently punished by the narrative.

Ash got punished by getting a Charizard too early, Dawn suffered with Mamoswine on the same vein, and heck, even if Iris's situation was admitelly not as well writeen as her predecessors, she got punished not once, but twice, as she had to endure both a Excadrill who closed itself off from her and a Dragonite who hated her guts.

And Goh? He gets evolution after evolution, powerful mon after powerful mon, without ever getting off his ass and raising a finger to help them out yet the narrative doesn't bats an eye at this and he comes off completely unscathered.
I don't think I'd say that Dawn was punished for getting Mamoswine, especially when she wasn't a rookie like Ash was when he got Charizard or had the same kind of flaws that Iris did. That just felt more like a personality change after Swinub evolved as opposed to Dawn poorly handling her Pokemon or having flaws to deal with through Mamoswine. Even with Iris getting two disobedient Pokemon in a row and how Dragonite behaved in that tournament, I'd hesitant to say that she was punished, if only because of how badly both storylines were from beginning to end and she didn't really learn from either experience.

Honestly, while Goh does get Pokemon to evolve without much battling or training, it doesn't really bother me in large part because the show doesn't put Goh himself on this high pedestal. They aren't treating him as this super special gifted trainer because his Pokemon evolve without much training or because he can capture Pokemon usually pretty easily. At least I haven't gotten that impression from Journeys anyway. Whenever one of his Pokemon evolves, they think it's cool and great that it happened, but that's about it. They don't consider Goh to be this amazing or gifted trainer for being able to evolve his Pokemon. It also helps that few of his evolved Pokemon would be particularly strong or seen as such.

I can still understand being annoyed at how Goh gets his evolved Pokemon to a degree and I'm not fine with how all of them have been handled either. I still really wish that we got more screentime for Drizzle before it evolved, especially when Goh's scene with it on the rooftop was really good and easily one of my favorite moments in Journeys, if not the entire anime as a whole. But since the show doesn't make a huge big deal about Goh getting evolved Pokemon, it just doesn't really bother me for the most part.
 
I respect your opinion but you can't just call it a 'fact'. All I see from that side-by-side comparison is that they're different, not better or worse just different. Journey's art-style may not be the best the series has ever had but it works, but XY art-style could be pretty stiff in places outside of battles. Honestly, if I had to choose a favorite art-style i'd have to go with Sun and Moon's.
True enough. Sorry about that though, I should've just said it was "in my opinion". Honestly, the "stiffness" of the XY art style, as you and others have called it, really didn't bother me in the slightest. I thought the whole series looked absolutely gorgeous, and while it's true SM might have had more fluidity and expressionism, I feel like too much was lost in the looks department for the characters as a whole in the transition between series. (Especially Ash.) I do respect your opinion though, I can definitely see why SM has its fans. I'm just not one of them.
 
I don't think I'd say that Dawn was punished for getting Mamoswine, especially when she wasn't a rookie like Ash was when he got Charizard or had the same kind of flaws that Iris did. That just felt more like a personality change after Swinub evolved as opposed to Dawn poorly handling her Pokemon or having flaws to deal with through Mamoswine. Even with Iris getting two disobedient Pokemon in a row and how Dragonite behaved in that tournament, I'd hesitant to say that she was punished, if only because of how badly both storylines were from beginning to end and she didn't really learn from either experience.
I just wanna clarify that I used "punished" in a very loose sense of the word. I meant more in the sense of "receiving negative consequences". Sorry if that wasn't as clear as I thought it was.

Yeah, Dawn wasn't as much of a rookie in that point of her story compared to Ash, but Piloswine didn't had any respect for her after evolving and got even worse after it evolved again. Her overall context might have been different from Ash's, but she still had to actively work with her Pokémon to gain it's respect.

Also, yes, Iris was poorly written in general (which is more because BW in general was poorly written but that's besides the point), but that still doesn't means that she didn't had to work to have both disobedient mons obeying her.

The ultimate issue that I'm trying to say is that, even if Goh's mons aren't as strong nor powerful, they are still evolutions (meaning: new dex entries, therefore, progress), and Goh never worked for them. Seriously, literally the only evolution I genuinely feel like he deserved was his Scizor, but it kinda falls flat when you remember JN never actually cared for his Scizor since it got the boot once Cinderace came along.

But still, the bottom line is: why is that Goh keeps on getting evolutions for his mons when he doesn't deserves said evolutions? And why is that he's allowed to keep on getting away with his laziness and neglect while everybody else who was ever on the same position as him got punished for it?
 
But still, the bottom line is: why is that Goh keeps on getting evolutions for his mons when he doesn't deserves said evolutions? And why is that he's allowed to keep on getting away with his laziness and neglect while everybody else who was ever on the same position as him got punished for it?
Because he is an Stu/Writer's Pet.

And Journeys seems more like an amateur fanfic.
 
I just wanna clarify that I used "punished" in a very loose sense of the word. I meant more in the sense of "receiving negative consequences". Sorry if that wasn't as clear as I thought it was.

Yeah, Dawn wasn't as much of a rookie in that point of her story compared to Ash, but Piloswine didn't had any respect for her after evolving and got even worse after it evolved again. Her overall context might have been different from Ash's, but she still had to actively work with her Pokémon to gain it's respect.

Also, yes, Iris was poorly written in general (which is more because BW in general was poorly written but that's besides the point), but that still doesn't means that she didn't had to work to have both disobedient mons obeying her.

The ultimate issue that I'm trying to say is that, even if Goh's mons aren't as strong nor powerful, they are still evolutions (meaning: new dex entries, therefore, progress), and Goh never worked for them. Seriously, literally the only evolution I genuinely feel like he deserved was his Scizor, but it kinda falls flat when you remember JN never actually cared for his Scizor since it got the boot once Cinderace came along.

But still, the bottom line is: why is that Goh keeps on getting evolutions for his mons when he doesn't deserves said evolutions? And why is that he's allowed to keep on getting away with his laziness and neglect while everybody else who was ever on the same position as him got punished for it?
I actually forgot his Scizor exist. I'm honestly wondering what pokemon he is taking for the search for mew. The only ones that seem strong is cinderace and Inteleon.
 
I just wanna clarify that I used "punished" in a very loose sense of the word. I meant more in the sense of "receiving negative consequences". Sorry if that wasn't as clear as I thought it was.

Yeah, Dawn wasn't as much of a rookie in that point of her story compared to Ash, but Piloswine didn't had any respect for her after evolving and got even worse after it evolved again. Her overall context might have been different from Ash's, but she still had to actively work with her Pokémon to gain it's respect.

Also, yes, Iris was poorly written in general (which is more because BW in general was poorly written but that's besides the point), but that still doesn't means that she didn't had to work to have both disobedient mons obeying her.
I disagree that Iris had to work to get her disobedient Pokemon to listen to her. With Excadrill, Cilan was the one who pointed out that she didn't understand its feelings. She did apologize afterwards, so maybe you could argue that she put more effort into reconnecting with Excadrill as a result, but the fact that she had this problem seemingly for years and someone else had to point out the obvious to her kind of weakens the idea that she had to work to get Excadrill to listen to her again. She definitely didn't have to work to get Dragonite to listen to her again. She protected it from an attack, which is a nice gesture that shows that she cares, but that was effectively what Iris did when she first met Dragonite. It's a big reason why the subplot felt so pointless when its resolution just felt tacked on.

The ultimate issue that I'm trying to say is that, even if Goh's mons aren't as strong nor powerful, they are still evolutions (meaning: new dex entries, therefore, progress), and Goh never worked for them. Seriously, literally the only evolution I genuinely feel like he deserved was his Scizor, but it kinda falls flat when you remember JN never actually cared for his Scizor since it got the boot once Cinderace came along.

But still, the bottom line is: why is that Goh keeps on getting evolutions for his mons when he doesn't deserves said evolutions? And why is that he's allowed to keep on getting away with his laziness and neglect while everybody else who was ever on the same position as him got punished for it?
Honestly, I thought that Cinderace's evolution was fine. While it didn't have a lot of battling experience, I thought that Goh understanding Raboot's feelings about using Ember to win the battle showed off their connection pretty well and made its evolution felt believable. In retrospect, I do wish that they spaced out its evolutions more, especially when I still believe that the show lost something important by putting Cinderace on the sidelines in favor of Goh's other unevolved Galar starters, but I thought that it generally worked.

Saying that Goh is getting away with his laziness and neglect sounds a bit extreme to me, especially when he isn't neglecting his Pokemon. I wouldn't say that other characters are on the same position as him, or rather that comparing the situations with Ash, Dawn and Iris doesn't quite work for me. I don't see them being in the same position when Goh isn't a battle active trainer, at least not on the same level as the other characters. That's a pretty key difference to me, especially when most of his evolved Pokemon aren't really considered that strong to begin with. It might just feel too much like an apples and oranges kind of comparison to me. Goh is getting evolved Pokemon, but because he isn't the kind of trainer that Ash, Dawn and Iris are, I don't think that he really necessarily needs to deal with a disobedient Pokemon as a result of one of these evolutions.

Honestly, Goh would have been better off in Pokémon Origins, since Pokémon are treated more like animals in that and it's expected to capture all Pokémon without caring much for them.
Except that Goh clearly cares about his Pokemon. There have been multiple examples throughout the series that shows this. Even after his first capture spree, he was playing with his new Bug Pokemon. Considering how short Pokemon Origins was, I don't think Goh would have fit better in that mini series as opposed to the main series. They didn't really have enough time to showcase all of Red's adventure, so they wouldn't have time to introduce an anime only character like Goh in there.
 
The ultimate issue that I'm trying to say is that, even if Goh's mons aren't as strong nor powerful, they are still evolutions (meaning: new dex entries, therefore, progress), and Goh never worked for them. Seriously, literally the only evolution I genuinely feel like he deserved was his Scizor, but it kinda falls flat when you remember JN never actually cared for his Scizor since it got the boot once Cinderace came along.

But still, the bottom line is: why is that Goh keeps on getting evolutions for his mons when he doesn't deserves said evolutions? And why is that he's allowed to keep on getting away with his laziness and neglect while everybody else who was ever on the same position as him got punished for it?
Ultimately it matters very little in the long run since we KNOW that Goh is not going to capture EVERY Pokemon so his Pokedex will never be completed.

Also at this point, Evolutions aren't something that happens when they're earned.

They're something that happens, as long as the Japanese fanbase likes the Evolution strongly enough

I thought this was something we all learned from Sun and Moon.

It isn't something that only applies to Goh. Mallow and Lana also had undeserved evolutions
 
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Saying that Goh is getting away with his laziness and neglect sounds a bit extreme to me, especially when he isn't neglecting his Pokemon. I wouldn't say that other characters are on the same position as him, or rather that comparing the situations with Ash, Dawn and Iris doesn't quite work for me. I don't see them being in the same position when Goh isn't a battle active trainer, at least not on the same level as the other characters. That's a pretty key difference to me, especially when most of his evolved Pokemon aren't really considered that strong to begin with. It might just feel too much like an apples and oranges kind of comparison to me. Goh is getting evolved Pokemon, but because he isn't the kind of trainer that Ash, Dawn and Iris are, I don't think that he really necessarily needs to deal with a disobedient Pokemon as a result of one of these evolutions.
But I'm not talking about his Pokémon being strong or not, necessarilly. It's the fact that he gains evolutions too easily. It's important to notice strenght is not his goal, but a "plus" for him. Getting mons and dex entries is.

Yeah, he's not a battler. But then why does he get evolutions easier than the ones that are battlers? Like, his Pokémon literally just exist and they evolve. I've talked about this before somewhere (I think), but this is exactly the "passive income" aspect of Goh's goal that is one of it's fundamental flaws. He barely interacts with them on-screen yet they evolve and he reaps the benefits because he gets dex entries and progresses on his goal.

Perhaps he doesn't needs to deal with disobediences, I agree. But it definitely feels unfair whereas everyone who got undeserved evolutions before his time had to suffer a consequence and Goh comes out unharmed every single time.

Just yet another instance of the anime bending itself over backwards for Goh to come out on top...
 
View attachment 159289View attachment 159291

Seeing as how these two screenshots from their respective episodes are quite similar, what with the sunset and saying goodbye to Greninja, it's not surprising people would compare them side-by-side like this, and that's just what I found on Twitter. And, just as people on Twitter have said, (and I agree with them,) the Journeys artstyle is, again, inferior. I know, I know, that's been beaten to death at this point. You can't argue with facts, though. But I think I can say now with certainty just what it is about Journey's artstyle that bugs me. It's that it's too.......simple. And not simple in a good way simple, simple in a lazy way. The backgrounds still look fantastic, why can't the characters? I'm just saying.
While I agree XY obviously had higher production values than the current series in terms of animation, in terms of character design that scene looks fine to me. Ash looks well drawn and just slightly younger looking than in XY. All the human characters in Journey's including the old returning cast like Dawn, Gary, Iris, Bonnie/Clemont, Serena etc. look perfectly good or in some cases better in the current designs. Obviously there is some production value issues during some of the battles which is why the Drasna fight in particular looked off in a lot of shots but I think overall the art style is fine.
 
But I'm not talking about his Pokémon being strong or not, necessarilly. It's the fact that he gains evolutions too easily. It's important to notice strenght is not his goal, but a "plus" for him. Getting mons and dex entries is.

Yeah, he's not a battler. But then why does he get evolutions easier than the ones that are battlers? Like, his Pokémon literally just exist and they evolve. I've talked about this before somewhere (I think), but this is exactly the "passive income" aspect of Goh's goal that is one of it's fundamental flaws. He barely interacts with them on-screen yet they evolve and he reaps the benefits because he gets dex entries and progresses on his goal.
I keep pointing out that the strength of his Pokemon is because it's part of the reason why I don't see it as a big problem. If all of Goh's evolved Pokemon were basically something like Dawn's Togekiss or Iris' Dragonite where they're all clearly powerful Pokemon with overpowered movesets, I think it would feel more unearned. But since they aren't, it doesn't really feel like a big deal. Sure, he's getting more dex entries and progress for his ultimate goal, but even that doesn't really bother me when Goh is never going to complete the Pokedex. Even with getting evolved Pokemon with little to no effort on his part, it doesn't feel like he's getting a free handout for his goal exactly just because of how he can't really catch every Pokemon out there.

I think that this is also a situation where there wouldn't be anyway to please fans. If Goh battled with his Pokemon more to make their evolutions feel more earned/believable, people would complain about him taking up screentime again, assuming that topic ever really stopped. If Goh caught all of the evolved forms instead, people would still complain about he catches Pokemon way too easily. Like I mentioned before, not all of his evolutions get a pass from me and I can understand being more upset over this to a point, especially for those who already don't like Goh, but it just seems like a rock and a hard place kind of situation.

Now I agree that it's weird for his Pokemon to evolve more easily than ones raised from battle active trainers, but I think that has more to do with how Goh's Pokemon are largely not treated as characters. Pokemon like Charizard, Mamoswine, Excadrill and Dragonite were. That is a problem with Goh's goal that I can understand more, if only because it doesn't really fit with how the anime has handled Pokemon for most of its run, but at the same time, they can't really give personalities to that many Pokemon, so I was fine with it pretty much from the start.

Perhaps he doesn't needs to deal with disobediences, I agree. But it definitely feels unfair whereas everyone who got undeserved evolutions before his time had to suffer a consequence and Goh comes out unharmed every single time.

Just yet another instance of the anime bending itself over backwards for Goh to come out on top...
That isn't true given that people definitely complained about Lana and Mallow's evolutions during SM. Popplio evolved from blowing bubbles, Bounsweet evolved in Mallow's first focus episode and evolved again in another Mallow focused episode. I'd argue that Goomy and Noibat's evolutions in XY were pretty unearned too. Goomy's evolution into Sliggo was the moment Ash's XY team fell apart for me and never quite recovered. Granted, the fact that it happens more often with Goh's Pokemon is a noticeable difference, but the idea that this is the anime bending over backwards for Goh is kind of ridiculous. I still find that hate on Goh largely undeserved, but even without factoring that in, I just don't see it as that much of a big deal. Undeserved evolutions without major consequences existed in the anime before Goh and will most likely continue to exist in future series after he leaves the cast.

Aside from maybe Charmeleon evolving into Charizard, I don't know if I'd call any of the evolved disobedient Pokemon undeserved either. Swinub didn't really do anything, but evolving through the stress of destroying Team Rocket's robot wasn't really unheard of. Ash used Charmander frequently enough that its evolutions felt believable. As much as I hate Iris' backstory with Excarill, evolving after winning nearly a hundred battles doesn't really sound unearned to me. Not to mention the problem was due to Iris not understanding Excadrill's feelings instead of Excadrill's evolution itself being the problem.
 
I keep pointing out that the strength of his Pokemon is because it's part of the reason why I don't see it as a big problem. If all of Goh's evolved Pokemon were basically something like Dawn's Togekiss or Iris' Dragonite where they're all clearly powerful Pokemon with overpowered movesets, I think it would feel more unearned. But since they aren't, it doesn't really feel like a big deal. Sure, he's getting more dex entries and progress for his ultimate goal, but even that doesn't really bother me when Goh is never going to complete the Pokedex. Even with getting evolved Pokemon with little to no effort on his part, it doesn't feel like he's getting a free handout for his goal exactly just because of how he can't really catch every Pokemon out there.

I think that this is also a situation where there wouldn't be anyway to please fans. If Goh battled with his Pokemon more to make their evolutions feel more earned/believable, people would complain about him taking up screentime again, assuming that topic ever really stopped. If Goh caught all of the evolved forms instead, people would still complain about he catches Pokemon way too easily. Like I mentioned before, not all of his evolutions get a pass from me and I can understand being more upset over this to a point, especially for those who already don't like Goh, but it just seems like a rock and a hard place kind of situation.

Now I agree that it's weird for his Pokemon to evolve more easily than ones raised from battle active trainers, but I think that has more to do with how Goh's Pokemon are largely not treated as characters. Pokemon like Charizard, Mamoswine, Excadrill and Dragonite were. That is a problem with Goh's goal that I can understand more, if only because it doesn't really fit with how the anime has handled Pokemon for most of its run, but at the same time, they can't really give personalities to that many Pokemon, so I was fine with it pretty much from the start.


That isn't true given that people definitely complained about Lana and Mallow's evolutions during SM. Popplio evolved from blowing bubbles, Bounsweet evolved in Mallow's first focus episode and evolved again in another Mallow focused episode. I'd argue that Goomy and Noibat's evolutions in XY were pretty unearned too. Goomy's evolution into Sliggo was the moment Ash's XY team fell apart for me and never quite recovered. Granted, the fact that it happens more often with Goh's Pokemon is a noticeable difference, but the idea that this is the anime bending over backwards for Goh is kind of ridiculous. I still find that hate on Goh largely undeserved, but even without factoring that in, I just don't see it as that much of a big deal. Undeserved evolutions without major consequences existed in the anime before Goh and will most likely continue to exist in future series after he leaves the cast.

Aside from maybe Charmeleon evolving into Charizard, I don't know if I'd call any of the evolved disobedient Pokemon undeserved either. Swinub didn't really do anything, but evolving through the stress of destroying Team Rocket's robot wasn't really unheard of. Ash used Charmander frequently enough that its evolutions felt believable. As much as I hate Iris' backstory with Excarill, evolving after winning nearly a hundred battles doesn't really sound unearned to me. Not to mention the problem was due to Iris not understanding Excadrill's feelings instead of Excadrill's evolution itself being the problem.
I mean saying "goh is never gonna complete the Pokedex so his unearned evolution/catches" doesn't really work all that much. I'm only saying this because, tbh no character ever really achieved there goal (outside of Brock , but I didn't watch the specials, is he doctor now?). Serena still has to be top performer, iris still has to be dragon master, dawn top coordinator, etc. The characters rarely ever complete their goals. Imagine if people justified ash unearned wins or whatever because " oh he is never gonna be pokemon master ".or with dawn not having an unearned ribbon with "oh the writers weren't gonna make her top coordinator anyways". Progress is still important even if we won't see the character achieve their goal

While goh does do get unearned hate at times. Honestly the issue is his goal. It was just fundamentally flawed from the start. It just doesn't work in the anime format. That's probably why they did project mew. Which should.of been his goal for the start. They have yet to give a legit reason why catching every pokemon helps him get mew. Especially since goh doesn't seem to even evaluate his goal. (Same thing with ash, but rn I'm just talking about goh). Does he factor that some Pokemon, only 1 exist like gladion syvally, or jirachi who takes years to awaken, or how is he gonna fit all those pokemon in the lab. They could of evaluated that in the yamper episode, but nah it was just filler. I don't have a problem with Goh having that goal, but it should of been used to develop him, not an actual goal the anime justified

And just because undeserved evolutions happen in the past isn't a good reason. By that logic we can use that to deflect any criticism just because it happened in the past

Also why did the XY team fall apart for you after sloggo evolution? Not arguing, just interested in your thoughts.
 
Also why did the XY team fall apart for you after sloggo evolution? Not arguing, just interested in your thoughts.
She probably feels that way because Goomy evolved waaaaay too fast, not just for any Pokemon belonging to a main character, but especially a Pseudo-Legendary Dragon type at that.
 
That isn't true given that people definitely complained about Lana and Mallow's evolutions during SM. Popplio evolved from blowing bubbles, Bounsweet evolved in Mallow's first focus episode and evolved again in another Mallow focused episode. I'd argue that Goomy and Noibat's evolutions in XY were pretty unearned too. Goomy's evolution into Sliggo was the moment Ash's XY team fell apart for me and never quite recovered. Granted, the fact that it happens more often with Goh's Pokemon is a noticeable difference, but the idea that this is the anime bending over backwards for Goh is kind of ridiculous. I still find that hate on Goh largely undeserved, but even without factoring that in, I just don't see it as that much of a big deal. Undeserved evolutions without major consequences existed in the anime before Goh and will most likely continue to exist in future series after he leaves the cast.
Yeah, I do understand the complains about Lana's Primarina and Mallow's Tsareena, I get it. But the main thing that sets them apart from basically all of Goh's mon is the fact they all had bonds with their trainers. Lana was the most battle-active girl in SM (she really was only behind Ash and Kiawe tbh), so she obviously battled with Popplio and they had a strong bond, and like,,, I get why people might feel like her evolutions were undeserved to a fault, but I always felt like it was a bit too overblown, I feel like she earned it.

And Tsareena evolved more because of her and Mallow's bond and less because of battles, which is perfectly valid imo. I mean, they have been together for years, and was the last gift Mallow's mom gave her before passing. They obviously have a deep, intimate bond, and this showed all throughout SM. Idk, I think evolution being mostly bond-based (although she did battled quite a bit against the TRio) is fine and overall felt earned, even if Mallow was admitelly mostly static in SM.

But Goh not only barely battles, but he also barely has any relationships with anybody who isn't a Galar starter or Scizor, and even those aren't anything to write home about. Like, dude, you might say that Popplio evolved by "blowing bubbles" was a bad thing, but then we have Goh's mons managing to surpass that by having Sobble evolving by shooting a berry and 4 whole ass Flabebés evolving by... floating, I guess (?). Besides Froakie evolving after one mini "battle" and ultimately serving as a MacGuffin-like narrative device.

Goh literally has none of the justifications Lana and Mallow had, even if said justifications weren't a 100% perfect.
Aside from maybe Charmeleon evolving into Charizard, I don't know if I'd call any of the evolved disobedient Pokemon undeserved either. Swinub didn't really do anything, but evolving through the stress of destroying Team Rocket's robot wasn't really unheard of. Ash used Charmander frequently enough that its evolutions felt believable.
But.. they were underserved tho??? That was literally the whole point. Both Ash and Dawn got powerful Pokémon that they ultimately didn't deserve at the time and had to work towards being deserving of such strong mon. It's literally based off you getting high leveled Pokémon without getting badges in the games: you're not seen as "worthy" or "deserving" (!) of such Pokémon, which results on said mon not respecting you.

I don't exactly see your point here, I'm sorry.
 
I mean saying "goh is never gonna complete the Pokedex so his unearned evolution/catches" doesn't really work all that much. I'm only saying this because, tbh no character ever really achieved there goal (outside of Brock , but I didn't watch the specials, is he doctor now?). Serena still has to be top performer, iris still has to be dragon master, dawn top coordinator, etc. The characters rarely ever complete their goals. Imagine if people justified ash unearned wins or whatever because " oh he is never gonna be pokemon master ".or with dawn not having an unearned ribbon with "oh the writers weren't gonna make her top coordinator anyways". Progress is still important even if we won't see the character achieve their goal
While that is true, I think that a difference is that those other goals are at least more plausible/reachable for the characters to achieve compared to Goh completing the Pokedex. That just isn't going to happen since I don't see him catching every Legendary Pokemon and there will always be new Pokemon for him to capture too. I'm not saying that it isn't progress, but because I don't see him getting a complete dex, it just doesn't feel like a huge deal to me, especially when he'd probably get these evolved Pokemon by catching them if they didn't evolve anyway.

While goh does do get unearned hate at times. Honestly the issue is his goal. It was just fundamentally flawed from the start. It just doesn't work in the anime format. That's probably why they did project mew. Which should.of been his goal for the start. They have yet to give a legit reason why catching every pokemon helps him get mew. Especially since goh doesn't seem to even evaluate his goal. (Same thing with ash, but rn I'm just talking about goh). Does he factor that some Pokemon, only 1 exist like gladion syvally, or jirachi who takes years to awaken, or how is he gonna fit all those pokemon in the lab. They could of evaluated that in the yamper episode, but nah it was just filler. I don't have a problem with Goh having that goal, but it should of been used to develop him, not an actual goal the anime justified
Having something like Project Mew earlier in the series could have given Goh's goal some much needed structure and could have potentially reduced some of the backlash from earlier in the series too. I can't really blame them for not wondering how he'd fit all of those Pokemon in the lab, mainly because they never had to worry about that with Professor Oak's lab even with Ash's ever growing roster of Pokemon, but wondering how he'll catch one of a kind Pokemon could be interesting. Although, that's one of the reasons why I don't see Goh completing his Pokedex in the first place. I don't have much of a problem with Goh's goal, but I agree that it could have been handled more effectively within the structure of the anime.

And just because undeserved evolutions happen in the past isn't a good reason. By that logic we can use that to deflect any criticism just because it happened in the past
To be clear, I didn't say that it's a good reason. I directly complained about Ash's unearned evolutions in that post, so I wasn't saying it's okay because it has happened in the past. My point was that the anime isn't bending over backwards for Goh when unearned evolutions with no consequences happened in previous series. It's not a new development or exclusive to Goh. That was the point I was trying to make.

Also why did the XY team fall apart for you after sloggo evolution? Not arguing, just interested in your thoughts.
Pretty much because all of my problems with Ash's XY team began with that evolution. Goomy's evolution felt unearned, which continued as it became a Goodra just so that Ash could have a powerhouse for his Gym battle with Clemont. Then Noibat was captured only to do little throughout the rest of the series and they kept Goodra's slot so it could come back for the Kalos League, which would have been fine if it did more than draw with its opponents. People often complain about Ash Greninja taking up attention in the last stretch of XY and I do understand that too, but I just felt that Ash's team had bigger problems way before that happened.

Yeah, I do understand the complains about Lana's Primarina and Mallow's Tsareena, I get it. But the main thing that sets them apart from basically all of Goh's mon is the fact they all had bonds with their trainers. Lana was the most battle-active girl in SM (she really was only behind Ash and Kiawe tbh), so she obviously battled with Popplio and they had a strong bond, and like,,, I get why people might feel like her evolutions were undeserved to a fault, but I always felt like it was a bit too overblown, I feel like she earned it.

And Tsareena evolved more because of her and Mallow's bond and less because of battles, which is perfectly valid imo. I mean, they have been together for years, and was the last gift Mallow's mom gave her before passing. They obviously have a deep, intimate bond, and this showed all throughout SM. Idk, I think evolution being mostly bond-based (although she did battled quite a bit against the TRio) is fine and overall felt earned, even if Mallow was admitelly mostly static in SM.

But Goh not only barely battles, but he also barely has any relationships with anybody who isn't a Galar starter or Scizor, and even those aren't anything to write home about. Like, dude, you might say that Popplio evolved by "blowing bubbles" was a bad thing, but then we have Goh's mons managing to surpass that by having Sobble evolving by shooting a berry and 4 whole ass Flabebés evolving by... floating, I guess (?). Besides Froakie evolving after one mini "battle" and ultimately serving as a MacGuffin-like narrative device.

Goh literally has none of the justifications Lana and Mallow had, even if said justifications weren't a 100% perfect.
Honestly, I still feel like Lana being a battler is a bit of a stretch. She was the most battle active out of the SM girls, but that really doesn't say much. Granted, I always thought that Lana was overrated, so that probably doesn't help my feelings towards Popplio's evolutions either. I was fine with Brionne evolving into Primarina, but Popplio into Brionne felt a bit too weak for me given that they were always more interested in blowing bubbles. It's also a bit hard for me to retroactively give Tsareena more credit for evolving due to their bond mainly because Mallow's tragic backstory felt pretty tacked on. Mallow and Tsareena still cared about each another throughout SM before their backstory was revealed, but I don't think it makes the evolutions feel more earned in retrospect.

As much as I like the idea of justifying these evolutions based on the bonds between their trainers, I also think it falls a bit too flat for me ultimately. This is mainly because the point was originally that Goh gets evolved Pokemon too easily and without battling, but now it's he doesn't even have a strong enough connection with these Pokemon to justify these evolutions. I know that you said that the justifications for Lana and Mallow weren't perfect, but I don't know if their connections alone would be enough to make their evolutions feel earned or believable or if that would work with every other non battle active character. And yes, Goh's Pokemon have evolved through weak reasons too. I've said multiple times that not all of his evolutions get a pass here, so I'm not ignoring them. It's just hard to make Sobble's evolution look sigificantly worse compared to something like Popplio's in my opinion.

But.. they were underserved tho??? That was literally the whole point. Both Ash and Dawn got powerful Pokémon that they ultimately didn't deserve at the time and had to work towards being deserving of such strong mon. It's literally based off you getting high leveled Pokémon without getting badges in the games: you're not seen as "worthy" or "deserving" (!) of such Pokémon, which results on said mon not respecting you.

I don't exactly see your point here, I'm sorry.
I know that's what at least Charizard's disobedience was based on, but that clearly wasn't the case given that it still took Charizard awhile to listen to Ash even after getting his first set of badges. I was talking about the evolutions themselves being undeserved, not how the Pokemon felt about their trainers afterwards.
 
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