Controversial opinions

[Hidden Mew]

Alain being in the Masters 8 itself can be an example, considering they made fans think Ash was gonna get a chance to face him and FINALLY defeat him, but nope! Then there was JN008, making some think Dawn and Brock would return then. We still got them much later down the line, but it still did happen.

To be fair, I don't think that was really the fault of Journeys. Wanting Ash to get a rematch with Alain was a perfectly reasonable assumption/hope from the fans. It would have been an easy way to create hype for the Master Class too, especially when they know how infamous the Kalos League finale was, and keeping Alain's involvement in the PWC a secret seemed suspicious too. But it was still more of an assumption from fans as opposed to another case of misleading promotion or advertisement. We didn't see a poster of Ash vs. Alain or a bit of dialogue giving the impression that Ash was going to battle him either.

 

[Emmy]

Also, they needed somebody to fill that eighth slot in the M8 and barring introducing a new character like Mustard or Peony, I'd argue there aren't many options to pick from that would be better - like it could have been Tobias for example.

--EDIT--
Apologies if this ends up being a double post, but I had a thought actually in regards to my last post, it could have been great if when we see Iris in Journeys she's only the Eighth Gym Leader, not the Unovan Champion and she mentions her goal in joining the PWC was a chance to train her skills against the best before taking on Alder in the M8.

Then, when the matchups occur she gets paired with Cynthia and Iris gets sad because she doesn't think she'll be able to beat several Champions in order to reach Alder (who would theoretically be in Alain's spot against Leon) but Ash convinces her to give it her all anyways and although Iris loses against Cynthia, her skills impress Alder who afterwards declares he is retiring from his position and invites Iris to train with him in order to be his successor.

Something like that would have gone a long way in my opinion to allowing her to reach the position she had in the games whilst bridging the gap and making it a believable route from her anime incarnation.

 

[Sai]

The Piplup/Croagunk filler was dumb, but they never made it seem like Dawn or Brock would be in the episode. That was also only the 8th or 9th ep of the series, no way were we getting character returns that early into a new series. It just felt like early DP advertising since they knew DP remakes would come in a year. It doesn't matter now since Dawn came back 3 times and Brock used Croagunk in the Arceus specials. (I mean we also had plenty of Psyduck fillers without Misty, so it's not like every time an old popular pokemon gets featured an old character has to return).

I also rather like Ash using Mr. Mime in the Hoenn episode, simply because we never saw it battle before. Since it was a one and done thing since Ash never used Mr. Mime again, it was nice to see it for an episode.

Also all these eps were at the start of the series where every ep felt like a weird homage to an early episode (like the Ivysaur episode being a throwback to Bulbasaur's Mysterious Garden), and they clearly stopped making eps like that after the first 10ish episode.

 

[Daren]

Also, they needed somebody to fill that eighth slot in the M8 and barring introducing a new character like Mustard or Peony, I'd argue there aren't many options to pick from that would be better - like it could have been Tobias for example.

I don't think they were that low on options. Brandon or any other post-game boss would also work.
Alain was probably either intended to get people watching for hope of a rematch or really wanting another Charizard.

 

[Sai]

They could have technically had Alan in the top 10 or something, and Ash battle him there before Master Class.

 

[Enzo]

Here's the thing: you make a goal where Ash can challenge pretty much anybody without being region-locked. You go and then bring back Alain, the one rival Ash was never able to defeat. You put both of them in the exact same group in which they have the possibility of battling each other. What exactly did you thought that was gonna leave implied? Think about it for one second.

And like, you can argue about "fans tricked themselves" all that you want, but there's no way in HELL they brought Alain back without having this in mind. This was the problem: hype culture. They knew that bringing him back would get people hyped and talking about it and they would go viral online. And they did.

But then, on the last second: BAM! Rug pull! That's all that JN has been about: create hype to get views but never having the gall to actually deliver what the fandom wanted to see in the first place.

 

[Sai]

I still have some hope Alan might appear again after the tournament, and he and Ash can have a 1 on 1 with Greninja in Kalos. It would be similar to Kiawe and Ash promising to battle each other in the Alola league, but the tournament never matched them up, so instead they had their battle in SM's finale (Lycanroc vs. Kiawe's Charizard), to end their rivalry on since they didn't get a league match. If Alan gets another appearance or sticks around during the tournament, it could happen.

As mentioned, people don't care about Ash beating Alan's other pokemon. All they really want is Greninja vs. Mega Charizard X. So they don't even need a full battle.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

To be fair, I don't think that was really the fault of Journeys. Wanting Ash to get a rematch with Alain was a perfectly reasonable assumption/hope from the fans. It would have been an easy way to create hype for the Master Class too, especially when they know how infamous the Kalos League finale was, and keeping Alain's involvement in the PWC a secret seemed suspicious too. But it was still more of an assumption from fans as opposed to another case of misleading promotion or advertisement. We didn't see a poster of Ash vs. Alain or a bit of dialogue giving the impression that Ash was going to battle him either.

I really don't think any additional hints of an Ash/Alain battle were needed for this to be considered a tease. There's too much subtext in including Alain in a tournament that Ash is also competing in, especially considering their unfinished business and promise of a rematch. This series already set the precedent that character returns, at least for competitive friends and rivals, equals a battle. They even found an excuse for Paul, who wasn't participating in the PWC, to battle Ash.

Alain is the only character in the M8 that wasn't a mandatory inclusion (based on the questionable requirement to feature every Champion), meaning there was a conscious decision to include this friend and rival of Ash, when there were dozens of other option that would have probably made more sense. The argument that they only wanted a Gmax vs Mega Charizard battle doesn't really hold up, because they could have easily achieved the same thing with Lance, and it looks like Leon may not be Gmax-ing his Charizard here anyway.

That said, I'm starting to think we will get a battle between the two, even if it's just for training. It's looking an awful lot like this guy is getting eliminated in tomorrows episode, and unless his inclusion really was just shameless clickbait, I expect him to serve a similar purpose to Paul, sticking around to root for Ash and help him train. There has to be a legitimate reason for bringing him back, or so I'd like to believe.

 

[Daren]

That said, I'm starting to think we will get a battle between the two, even if it's just for training. It's looking an awful lot like this guy is getting eliminated in tomorrows episode, and unless his inclusion really was just shameless clickbait, I expect him to serve a similar purpose to Paul, sticking around to root for Ash and help him train. There has to be a legitimate reason for bringing him back, or so I'd like to believe.

There's a remote possibility here; that Alain is going to have a rematch with Greninja outside the tournament the same way Infernape got to fight Moltres a bit earlier, done that way because they don't want reserves being used in the tournament proper.

I'm not saying I think it's likely and I'd still wonder why they put him in the Master Eight instead of just showing up like Paul did, but I will mention the possibility.

I suppose tomorrow we might have a better idea why Alain returned.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Here's the thing: you make a goal where Ash can challenge pretty much anybody without beng region-locked. You go and then bring back Alain, the one rival Ash was never able to defeat. You put both of them in the exact same group in which they have the possibility of battling each other. What exactly did you that was gonna leave implied? Think about it for one second.

And like, you can argue about "fans tricked themselves" all that you want, but there's no way in HELL they brought Alain back without having this in mind. This was the problem: hype culture. They knew that bringing him back would get people hyped and talking about it and they would go viral online. And they did.

But then, on the last second: BAM! Rug pull! That's all that JN has been about: create hype to get views but never having the gall to actually deliver what the fandom wanted to see in the first place.

Happened with Greninja too.

I still have some hope Alan might appear again after the tournament, and he and Ash can have a 1 on 1 with Greninja in Kalos. It would be similar to Kiawe and Ash promising to battle each other in the Alola league, but the tournament never matched them up, so instead they had their battle in SM's finale (Lycanroc vs. Kiawe's Charizard), to end their rivalry on since they didn't get a league match. If Alan gets another appearance or sticks around during the tournament, it could happen.

As mentioned, people don't care about Ash beating Alan's other pokemon. All they really want is Greninja vs. Mega Charizard X. So they don't even need a full battle.

God I hope so. But if they do that I’m scared they’ll use Lucario instead of Greninja because using Greninja for a training battle makes no sense unless Ash brings it back to battle Leon. Oh and Greninja has to be in the Ash-Greninja form obviously.

 

[Sai]

It also depends if Alan sticks around to watch the rest of the battles, or he just packs up and leaves after his match ended. I think there's a small chance he can appear after the tournament or before the Leon match depending how this is paced. We still have a number of weeks left over for the Project Mew finale and whatever else happens.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

The Piplup/Croagunk filler was dumb, but they never made it seem like Dawn or Brock would be in the episode. That was also only the 8th or 9th ep of the series, no way were we getting character returns that early into a new series. It just felt like early DP advertising since they knew DP remakes would come in a year. It doesn't matter now since Dawn came back 3 times and Brock used Croagunk in the Arceus specials. (I mean we also had plenty of Psyduck fillers without Misty, so it's not like every time an old popular pokemon gets featured an old character has to return).

The specific pairing of Piplup and Croagunk doesn't exist in any other context other than the ones owned by Dawn and Brock. Said pairing doesn't evoke the video games, it evokes the DP anime, and it's naive to think that wasn't fully intentional. These two were also featured in multiple promotional posters leading up the series' debut. It's easy to say in retrospect that characters returning so early was impossible, but this series shook up the format so much that nobody really knew what to expect at the beginning.

I also rather like Ash using Mr. Mime in the Hoenn episode, simply because we never saw it battle before. Since it was a one and done thing since Ash never used Mr. Mime again, it was nice to see it for an episode.

Sure it was a solid battle, but the context of everything surrounding it was just awful. Least of which was the retconning of the Battle Frontier.

 

[Enzo]

There's a remote possibility here; that Alain is going to have a rematch with Greninja outside the tournament the same way Infernape got to fight Moltres a bit earlier, done that way because they don't want reserves being used in the tournament proper.

I'm not saying I think it's likely and I'd still wonder why they put him in the Master Eight instead of just showing up like Paul did, but I will mention the possibility.

I suppose tomorrow we might have a better idea why Alain returned.

It's gonna be incredible if they do all of this just because they refuse to have Ash use his reserves in the PWC.

You see, a point that I think we need to understand here is cuz the ultimate thing about Alain is that a rematch against him doesn't works unless Greninja is there. Greninja/Zard X are analogous to Ash/Alain. Bringing Alain back to not have Greninja being the star of the fight makes no sense.

But still, do all of this, drop the ball this badly, piss off a bunch of fans, all because your stupid decision to not include reserves has to be one of the lowest points for the anime.

 

[Sai]

Sure it was a solid battle, but the context of everything surrounding it was just awful. Least of which was the retconning of the Battle Frontier.

I assume it was to resemble the Battle Tents from Emerald version. I don't know if you played the game, but in the Hoenn region they added these tents that were like previews to the Battle Frontier which you couldn't do till you beat the Elite 4. They used similar rules as the BF but they were one and done things.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The Piplup/Croagunk filler was dumb, but they never made it seem like Dawn or Brock would be in the episode. That was also only the 8th or 9th ep of the series, no way were we getting character returns that early into a new series. It just felt like early DP advertising since they knew DP remakes would come in a year. It doesn't matter now since Dawn came back 3 times and Brock used Croagunk in the Arceus specials. (I mean we also had plenty of Psyduck fillers without Misty, so it's not like every time an old popular pokemon gets featured an old character has to return).

The promotion of Piplup and Croagunk for that episode would understandably make people think of Dawn and Brock more so than the D/P games. Yeah, it was way too soon to bring back older characters, but then why bother creating unique promotional artwork for the episode if it wasn't going to be more important or significant? Promoting what was a pretty weak filler episode like that would get people upset when they found out that Dawn and Brock weren't going to be featured.

I also rather like Ash using Mr. Mime in the Hoenn episode, simply because we never saw it battle before. Since it was a one and done thing since Ash never used Mr. Mime again, it was nice to see it for an episode.

I found it to be rather pointless and stupid. Why bother retconing Mr. Mime into one of Ash's Pokemon if it was just going to be used for one battle and then put in the background for the rest of the series? Unless I'm talking about the retcon, I honestly forget that Mr. Mime even exists in this series, making the retcon feel even more pointless and worthless. Why not just have him capture a different Mr. Mime if they really wanted him to have one? They changed its personality so much that it might as well be a different Pokemon altogether. The battle itself was still pretty good from what I remember, but the retcon being so forced and contrived really brought it down for me. The idea that Ash caught Mr. Mime back in the original series and never once decided to use it in battle for over twenty years or interacted with it like he does with any of his older Pokemon is one of the most unbelievable claims the anime has ever made.

They could have technically had Alan in the top 10 or something, and Ash battle him there before Master Class.

That probably would have been a better option. Having Ash vs. Alain happen outside of the tournament isn't a bad idea, especially when people would want to see Ash Greninja defeat Mega Charizard X more so than anything else, but I feel like if they had Alain in the PWC, they really should have had him battle Ash sooner instead of waiting until later.

I really don't think any additional hints of an Ash/Alain battle were needed for this to be considered a tease. There's too much subtext in including Alain in a tournament that Ash is also competing in, especially considering their unfinished business and promise of a rematch. This series already set the precedent that character returns, at least for competitive friends and rivals, equals a battle. They even found an excuse for Paul, who wasn't participating in the PWC, to battle Ash.

Alain is the only character in the M8 that wasn't a mandatory inclusion (based on the questionable requirement to feature every Champion), meaning there was a conscious decision to include this friend and rival of Ash, when there were dozens of other option that would have probably made more sense. The argument that they only wanted a Gmax vs Mega Charizard battle doesn't really hold up, because they could have easily achieved the same thing with Lance, and it looks like Leon may not be Gmax-ing his Charizard here anyway.

Admittedly, I was pretty certain of Ash vs. Alain was going to happen too. I didn't think that there would be a reason to bring him back if he was going to lose to anyone besides Ash. So I still can't blame fans for being upset about it. I just hesitate to call it another case of misleading or misdirection, especially compared to most of the other examples. It is still really questionable to bring Alain back if he is going to be just first round fodder for Alain though. I don't think that they could have achieved the same thing with Lance mainly because we already saw Leon defeat him at the start of the series. It was a short one-on-one battle that didn't involve Lance's Charizard, but Leon defeating Lance twice wouldn't have much of an impact even if they were both using Charizard.

That said, I'm starting to think we will get a battle between the two, even if it's just for training. It's looking an awful lot like this guy is getting eliminated in tomorrows episode, and unless his inclusion really was just shameless clickbait, I expect him to serve a similar purpose to Paul, sticking around to root for Ash and help him train. There has to be a legitimate reason for bringing him back, or so I'd like to believe.

A part of me would not be surprised if they did just bring him back for Mega Charizard X vs. Gigantamax Charizard, if only because that matchup still sounds really cool. It would be preferable to have more of a reason to bring back Alain than that, but I'm not sure if Ash defeating Alain in a training match would really create the same kind of excitement as Ash defeating Alain in the tournament proper.

Sure it was a solid battle, but the context of everything surrounding it was just awful. Least of which was the retconning of the Battle Frontier.

I don't remember how that episode retcon the Battle Frontier.

 

[Beatsy Ray]

I assume it was to resemble the Battle Tents from Emerald version. I don't know if you played the game, but in the Hoenn region they added these tents that were like previews to the Battle Frontier which you couldn't do till you beat the Elite 4. They used similar rules as the BF but they were one and done things.

That's definitely an interpretation I haven't heard. If that's what they were going for, I wish they would have actually committed to it and had it function like the game facilities with unique formats, rather than just slapping the "Battle Frontier" name on a vanilla tournament. Still, I guess I can view it a bit more favorably if I think of it as an obscure Emerald reference.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

It's gonna be incredible if they do all of this just because they refuse to have Ash use his reserves in the PWC.

You see, a point that I think we need to understand here is cuz the ultimate thing about Alain is that a rematch against him doesn't works unless Greninja is there. Greninja/Zard X are analogous to Ash/Alain. Bringing Alain back to not have Greninja being the star of the fight makes no sense.

But still, do all of this, drop the ball this badly, piss off a bunch of fans, all because your stupid decision to not include reserves has to be one of the lowest points for the anime.

Not bringing in reserves is way worse than the Masters 8 matchups (and Ash not battling Alain because that can’t happen without allowing reserves). I don’t know what the writers where thinking. This is literally the biggest tournament of the World with Champions and not having reserves feels like a massive slap in the face. It makes zero sense. And the first round battles being three on three is annoying too.
Like I hope the non Ash battles are good at this point and that we might see some returning characters (hoping for all of Ash’s companions to cheer him on against Leon!)

 

[Eitarou]

I'd be fine with Ash using reserves if this was a Round Robin competition and he'd battle all seven. But he's only facing three and the Journeys team still needs to make up for the lackluster treatment they received during most of the show's run.

 

[Sai]

I'd be fine with Ash using reserves if this was a Round Robin competition and he'd battle all seven. But he's only facing three and the Journeys team still needs to make up for the lackluster treatment they received during most of the show's run.

It would have been the best of both worlds if he mixed and matched. His Journey's team already has had nearly the same amount of battles as Gyms as most previous pokemon have besides Ash's starter. When you remember stuff like Noviern never getting a Gym battle, Goodra only being in 1, Torracat never getting a Kahuna battle, Torkoal only getting 1 Gym, Snorunt only getting 1 Gym where it lost, Totodile only getting 1 Gym where it lost, Noctowl only getting 1 Gym, Gible never getting a Gym, Taillow being treated poorly until it evolved, etc....the way Dracovish/Sirfetch'd are treated is not much different.

If you view Lucario as the way Ash's starters are treated, it basically has a little less focus than a usual starter each series but the same amount of "big" battles.

 

[puddleths]

It's just sad, to me, that this series with its premise presented a seemingly great opportunity for the reserves to get "one last hurrah," but instead it's been made clear they will never be used in battle again.