Cynthia=Mary Sue?

[Phosphene]

How is the man a Stu? He does not know the right way to go. He does get things wrong sometimes.

Getting lost isn't exactly a flaw in the sense that it's nothing major and is played for laughs. Per TV Trope's page on Mary Sue:

[Mary Sue] also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

A realistic flaw would be him focusing too much on battling and winning to the point where it's detrimental to his relationship with Hop, for example. Something that adds real depth to his character and makes him multi-faceted.

He fails to capture Eternatus and his narrative role is to lose to the player.

Eh, he's still nearly a perfect character outside of those two incidences where he essentially has to lose so that the protagonist can take charge (and the part where he fails to catch Eternatus is technically not his fault, though I will admit if he were actually a Stu he would have caught it just fine). While they might save him from the Stu label, he's still an (in-universe) universally beloved character with limited flaws/mistakes. The game tends to gush a lot about how great and amazing he is, how he's so unbeatable and awesome, and there's nothing to counterbalance this. Granted, you don't really get to see the flaws of most of the other champions/characters either, but I think the difference is how much the game tells you how perfect Leon is. Diantha, for example, is a famous actress, but XY doesn't repeatedly tell the player that she's the greatest, most wonderful actress in all of Kalos who always plays her part perfectly.

The game also tends to tell, and not show how great he is in my opinion. Even a few lines of dialogue about a clever strategy would have gone a long way to make his supposed unbeatable-ness more realistic, rather than the game telling the player he's never lost a single battle and expecting that to be enough.

People hype him up like crazy because he's the country's top battler in a place where that's taken much more seriously than every other region.

The main issue, in my opinion, is that I don't think there is a single person in the game who has anything negative to say about him, or even has a neutral opinion on him, outside of maybe like one or two villainous characters that we obviously aren't meant to agree/sympathize with. Sure, he's a celebrity and hyped up, but it's unrealistic for basically everyone to love him.

 

[WyndonCalling]

Leon isn't a stu.
He fails to capture Eternatus and his narrative role is to lose to the player.
People hype him up like crazy because he's the country's top battler in a place where that's taken much more seriously than every other region.

Agreed, I think the level of hype for him throughout Galar is measured just fine, and reflects the sportsman theme very well. His battle prowess is his only real stand-out positive trait, and that's not enough to make him a 'Stu'; if anything, I think Steven likely came the closest to falling into this trap, given his connections (some by blood) to the high echelons of Hoenn society and the slightly misplaced NPC thirst for him.

One other thing I'll add in defence of Leon - his character becomes much more interesting in the Battle Tower. My take-away from his change in attire is that the Champion Leon was always something of a persona created for the crowd, while his actual personal tastes are more mature and conservative.

 

[BlueWaves]

She isn’t a sue at all. She is powerful, she’s charming, and that’s it. She barely acts in the plot, let alone hog screentime or make herself look greater.


... How is that sue-ish at all? If anything, the protagonist is the mary sue here: even during the big character moments, they still butt in to steal the glory.

Oh, dear, I got the definitions opposite. My bad.

 

[Esserise]

Diantha, for example, is a famous actress, but XY doesn't repeatedly tell the player that she's the greatest, most wonderful actress in all of Kalos who always plays her part perfectly.

I mean, frankly, it probably should have, or at least done something like that.

Before I edited my previous post, I ended by saying that Leon is basically Diantha "done right." Let me take this opportunity to elaborate on that some more.

Diantha is by far the worse of the two, because her celebrity status does jack-doodly for the narrative. Her primary passion isn't related to battling, or a playable side-feature, or even a loose thematic concern like how Cynthia's interest in archaeology pertains to the Sinnoh region's history. What this means is that in addition to being utterly flawless like most Pokémon Champions (which I maintain is not necessarily an issue for that character role), she is... completely irrelevant to anything at all. We never in any way experience her in her element, we never see her put her acting talents to use. We talk to her a grand total of two times, and she does not do anything to intervene in the occasional emergencies that erupt as a result of Team Flare's actions. We finally battle her at the climax, even though battling is, to her, explicitly nothing more than a side-hobby. And yet this person is the ultimate Trainer in the entire Kalos region? If the concept of a Mary Sue could be applied to characters the size of your average Pokémon Champion, then I think Diantha would probably come the closest to qualifying. She doesn't co-represent any other institution in the story - not the villains (N), not the League organization (Lance, Leon), not one of the rivals (Blue, Hau, also Leon), not any thematic threads (ORASteven, Cynthia, N and Leon again), and she's not a mentor who helped you get going on your journey (Kukui, Steven and Cynthia sort of?). She's not a useful red herring (Alder), and she's not even someone we've met before in a better role being unsatisfyingly tapped to fill in as a surprise replacement Champion (Wallace, Iris). Her existence affects no one. Nobody in the story cares about her. She is literally an Aarune-tier character, and yet she's just so innately gifted and understanding that she is the pinnacle of Pokémon training in all of Kalos despite battling being something she merely dabbles in in her free time. It is just completely effortless to her.

In contrast, Leon being so hyped up and universally praised by NPCs serves a purpose in the story. It shows how he exists in relation to the world around him, the world that we are set to explore, and tells us something about that world. That this is a setting in which being an amazing battler can cause people to elevate you into an idol figure who is constantly showered with love, and who is expected to come to the peoples' aid when a conflict erupts (like the Dynamax experiments later in the game, and of course the Darkest Day). Beyond that, it accomplishes two other things - it positions a goal for you to work towards, since a major theme of the games is "the idea of being the greatest or the strongest." So of course the final boss needs to be the "ultimate" Trainer, in a way that is more heavily emphasized than previous Champions. Will you be the one to finally break this cultural prodigy superstar's undefeated streak? Dwelling on his personal flaws would probably undermine Leon's function in that role when we have other characters who can be mined for flaws, most obviously with Hop, upon whom Leon's unparalleled talent and profile casts a large shadow that acts as Hop's main motivation. Similarly, focusing on any anti-Leon contrarians would just be a distraction, since Team Yell and the other competitors themselves are people who by definition wish to see Leon lose, and already have clear reasons for possessing that desire.

 

[Almonds]

I haven't played the Galar games, but by the looks of it Leon seems to be praised by in-game NPCs even more than Kukui, Sycamore, and Steven lol. And I thought it was hilarious when some of the NPCs were praising their appearance or whatever adorable quirks they have (especially for the latter two in Gen 6).

Cynthia? As far as I remember, I don't think there has been NPCs praising and getting excited over Cynthia in your face. There were some praises here and there, but not to the point of meme status like later generations. Or maybe this is because people didn't make memes out of Gen 4 as much as later gens.

 

[prog rocker]

Kukui is a Pokemon Professor, a pro wrestler who all the ladies swoon over,

The only lady I recall seeing swooning over him is his own wife, IIRC.

 

[prog rocker]

imagine if you tried to game the system by candying your pokemon up to lv 100 during swsh's main story, only to find out that leon's pokemon scaled with yours and as such you're about to have a rude awakening. things like that would really demonstrate the power of a champion in comparison to the trainers before.

maybe this would be an awful idea, but i think it'd be fun, at least.

In my opinion, I wouldn't like this. A problem I have with other monster catching games is that they force you to use what works, and not what you like. I know that means Pokémon is easier, but I prefer having my choices.

 

[colours]

In my opinion, I wouldn't like this. A problem I have with other monster catching games is that they force you to use what works, and not what you like. I know that means Pokémon is easier, but I prefer having my choices.

i'm not sure if you misread what i post, but that didn't have much to do with what i said, perhaps? o.o;

i said that i preferred if the champion pokemon's level scaled with the players. i don't see how this prevents you from using whatever pokemon you like?

 

[Phosphene]

i don't see how this prevents you from using whatever pokemon you like?

I could see how certain Pokemon would become less viable to use, probably NFEs and weaker evolved Pokemon, if you didn't have a level advantage over your opponent.

 

[prog rocker]

i'm not sure if you misread what i post, but that didn't have much to do with what i said, perhaps? o.o;

i said that i preferred if the champion pokemon's level scaled with the players. i don't see how this prevents you from using whatever pokemon you like?

Like I said, by doing that you have to plan around the opponent's team, which would be kinda problematic for people that do end up getting attached to certain Pokémon that are not viable (like Spinyshell said)

It would also makes things impossible if you wanted to solo the game, like I tend to do.

 

[colours]

I could see how certain Pokemon would become less viable to use, probably NFEs and weaker evolved Pokemon, if you didn't have a level advantage over your opponent.

Like I said, by doing that you have to plan around the opponent's team, which would be kinda problematic for people that do end up getting attached to certain Pokémon that are not viable (like Spinyshell said)

It would also makes things impossible if you wanted to solo the game, like I tend to do.

i'll be honest, i struggle to see the point about viability. i see your point in the case of solo runs in which case yes that's fair, but in your standard 6v6 non-challenge playthrough it doesn't inhibit anything at all and that's what i feel like i'm having trouble understanding, assuming that's the implication. spinyshell brought up NFEs in which case not all NFEs are that weak and some are actually viable on their own, especially coupled with an eviolite (and not even that's mandatory). with a bit of creativity you can make a NFE pokemon work. it's not going to be easy, but some (emphasis on this) of them can work.

i'm still of the belief that the champion should be able to scale to the player for difficulty reasons. if i'm going to bring my lv 100 pikachu on a solo, that decision is on me to do and that's on me to come up with potential strategies to 1v6 my opponent. the champion isn't supposed to be someone you trample over with a weak NFE, so i'm not exactly sure i agree with that argument.

tl;dr: i'm not sure what the both of you are really arguing against in any of my points. if you want to bring five fully evolved mons and one NFE that happens to be your favourite so they can be champion, that isn't stopping you. if you want to do a team of all lv 80 nfes and they all happen to be your favourites, understand that's a challenge run in and of itself and things might be difficult but it's probably doable and again, this doesn't prevent you from doing that. so i'm still rather lost.

 

[prog rocker]

There's also another problem: The Champion is a forced battle and with the exception of Blue and maybe Trace they use Pokémon that are annoying to deal with even with a 30+ level advantage (e.g.: Milotic). If it was a super boss, I could get behind it since it is optional, but not if it's forced.

 

[colours]

idk for me personally, if i have a massive level advantage over my opponent, i just click (insert setup move) once or twice and then i have little issues afterwards. i guess it also depends on the pokemon. but i also acknowledge that not everyone does that. o:

if the champion was scaled more towards the player, it would force me to strategise more, but that's not a bad thing imo, because thematically, that's what it's supposed to be. i imagine champion battles aren't supposed to be easy, and this would make them appropriately challenging for what is supposed to be the "final boss" of the game.

but i've acknowledged that the idea may have flaws, after all! it's just spaghetti on the wall, but i personally think it'd still be fitting.

 

[Epic Spheal]

Regardless, I'm surprised people consider Cynthia a Mary Sue. Lillie is the real candidate for a Mary Sue. She's very timid, and the player has to confront Lusamine for her- even after she gives Lusamine a piece of her mind, the player has to fight her. That being said, I do think its cool that Lillie goes on her own journey out of inspiration from the player.

I personally wouldn't call Cynthia or Lillie Mary Sues. Overrated IMO, definitely but they aren't Mary Sues. Neither one warp the narrative in an unrealistic way IMO.

Leon isn't a stu.
He fails to capture Eternatus and his narrative role is to lose to the player.
People hype him up like crazy because he's the country's top battler in a place where that's taken much more seriously than every other region.

This. Anybody who watches sports knows that certain stars are going to get hyped to death because of their prowess. That's normal and Leon being someone who became champion so young and stayed undefeated for at least a decade, yeah people are going to hype that up. I mean I'm sure Mustard had the same level of hype when he was champion..that's just normal

The game tends to gush a lot about how great and amazing he is, how he's so unbeatable and awesome, and there's nothing to counterbalance this.

I actually disagree with this. Yes, the game hypes up how he's unbeatable but the games also hint at a strained relationship between him and Sonia due to their failed rivalry, strained relationships with Hop because he had to take on paternal role and that he spends so much time away from home and that fact that Opal's notes on him in game state that he isn't 100% happy being champion. Now I wholeheartedly agree that there was an imbalance on what aspects of Leon they focused on. They could've toned down the shilling to focus on those deeper aspects I mentioned.

To go back to the original topic of this thread, I don't think Cynthia (or any champion) is a Mary Sue as the champion role is very much static and more of a goal post than anything. She made a very good impression overall on the fandom as the first female champion which was crucial and I do have immense respect for her (I love her anime portrayal). However, I think she's overrated as far as champions go because I find that in terms of peacekeeping Lance, Alder and Leon did a far better job using their post as champion to actually do something. In terms of challenge, I won't deny she earns her place as having the most balanced/terrifying team, but personally Leon, Iris and Mustard gave me far more issues than Cynthia ever did and I was younger when I defeated her.

 

[Daenerys]

I mean yeah she's like borderline Mary Sue-ish in the games but in the anime she's a full-time Mary Sue. She's my least favorite character from the Sinnoh saga and everything about her ticks me off since she's portrayed as not only strong, but also as one of those 'I'm not like the other girls' characters because of her sweet tooth that's meant to be ~cute~ and ~endearing~, but is just a generic trait given to her character to make her seem different from other champions.

 

[RK9]

The Champions are hardly full characters in the games. They are more so goals to reach, the final obstacles in your way.

I'd more so call Leon one than Cynthia tbh. Everyone literally fawning over him, apparently being unbeaten for years (Which on its own is already a huge red flag for Stueness imo.), being a good person from what we see as well.

 

[Fan of Jarrus]

I think a Sue wouldn't fail to capture a Legendary.

 

[RK9]

I think a Sue wouldn't fail to capture a Legendary.

This is just the low hanging fruit argument tbh. A Sue manifests in many ways. Not just by if they catch a Legendary or not.

Also, the MCs kinda are Gary Stu's/Mary Sue's too. So in that case, his Stueness just got out-stueness'ed.

 

[Fan of Jarrus]

This is just the low hanging fruit argument tbh. A Sue manifests in many ways. Not just by if they catch a Legendary or not.

Also, the MCs kinda are Gary Stu's/Mary Sue's too. So in that case, his Stueness just got out-stueness'ed.

The MCs blaze through their battles.

 

[Epic Spheal]

The Champions are hardly full characters in the games. They are more so goals to reach, the final obstacles in your way.

I'd more so call Leon one than Cynthia tbh. Everyone literally fawning over him, apparently being unbeaten for years (Which on its own is already a huge red flag for Stueness imo.), being a good person from what we see as well.

I'll say this, the main reasons people give for Leon's stueness are actually justifiable in the context of his game.

Like everyone fawning over him is to be expected in a region that makes the gym challenge such a huge deal and the challengers/leader/champions are all treated as celebrities and hyped up. It would be boring if in a region this dead set on the sport of battling,that the champion wasn't hyped up. If this was a region where the citizens had an issue with the league (like say some wanted the league to be abolished) yet everyone still fawned over the champion...that would raise flags for me.

And being unbeaten...Mustard had a longer champion streak than Leon did. And every champion goes on an unbeaten streak for as long as their reign. Not to mention his role in the story is to be beaten...again they hype up his winning streak to make him a more appealing goal. So you have that sense of accomplishment of taking him down whether you respect his character or find him annoying.

And being the good guy...I don't get why people say that's a bad thing? Leon's not perfect, as his relationships with Sonia and Hop have becomed strained and he does get a little too obsessed with battling at the cost of really hearing Rose. And he comes off a little cocky in every day speech. He has flaws but is still a good guy just like a good portion of the human population.

I mean like I said in my original post, I'm definitely on board with the argument that the game narrative focused to much on the "unbeatable champion" image and not on the deeper aspects (relationships with Sonia and Hop, him not being 100% happy being champion) which can make him seem like a flat character. And another argument of having him be a little too involved with the plot (like I LOVE he actually did something unlike Cynthia who literally goes to the distortion world and lets a kid fight off a monster, but I think they could've balanced it to where he takes down stuff to show he's competent, but having other shady things go on that the player can be involved). But I don't think that warrants him being called a Stu, just a character whose potential wasn't properly utilized (but I could say that about pretty much every Champion).