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Did Ethan and Nate both beat Red canonically?

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This is actually a two-part question.

Part I:

Did both of the aforementioned trainers officially beat Red? Did just Ethan, and not Nate? If they both did canonically (which I believe they did) who is better? If the PWT is canon, would that make Nate the best trainer in the world, because he can (and most likely does) beat everybody Ethan and Red have beaten + Brendan and Lucas, PLUS Hilbert via the main game? Is Nate the best trainer ever or will this title forever be exclusive to Red.

Part II:

Due to the PWT, doesn't that technically mean Red can (and most likely will) beat almost every Champion in the game as well? Think of it, how many times does one play through the Champions tournament to battle each and every Champion? At least three times, probably more, this means every time you play through it, so does Red, technically, granted he won't always make it to the final round but he usually wins his first and second matches, assuming he isn't unlucky enough to battle Nate right away, but it's possible to beat Nate too. So Red can also beat everyone you beat, at least in the people contained in the Champions Tournament. But this also means that Blue, Lance, Steven, Wallace, Cynthia, and Alder can also beat any of the other seven Champions, so the question to this part is, who is the best trainer? Does Red prevail, or does Nate prevail canonically, or do you think it would be someone else?
 
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Because, none of the female player characters exist, of course. :rolleyes:

It's debatable on whether or not the PWT is still considered canon, thanks to ORAS. According to the PWT, Juan is the Sootopolis Gym Leader, and Wallace is the Hoenn Champion, which seems to directly contradict ORAS, where Wallace is a gym leader, Steven's the Champion, and Juan doesn't exist.

As for Red in HGSS, well, I guess it will take another sequel to prove that. (HGSS is the only reason why we know that Red and not Leaf is the canon Gen 1 hero, after all.)
 
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Because, none of the female player characters exist, of course. :rolleyes:

It's debatable on whether or not the PWT is still considered canon, thanks to ORAS. According to the PWT, Juan is the Sootopolis Gym Leader, and Wallace is the Hoenn Champion, which seems to directly contradict ORAS, where Wallace is a gym leader, Steven's the Champion, and Juan doesn't exist.

As for Red in HGSS, well, I guess it will take another sequel to prove that. (HGSS is the only reason why we know that Red and not Leaf is the canon Gen 1 hero, after all.)
Well if it makes you feel any better, I'm referring to the PC's as a pair, either one that gets played, and I prefer to think Ethan is canon because Crystal and HG/SS are remakes of GS.
 
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Well if it makes you feel any better, I'm referring to the PC's as a pair, either one that gets played
Then, why not actually write the names out as a pair, then? It doesn't take that long to add an extra "/Rosa" to "Nate." Otherwise, you're erasing the girls, and that's not cool.

I prefer to think Ethan is canon because Crystal and HG/SS are remakes of GS.
That's your headcanon and not actual fact. Unless we get a sequel to HGSS that explicitly establishes Ethan as canon like HGSS did so for Red, then Lyra is just as much canon as he is.

(Plus, HGSS were just as much remakes of Crystal as they were Gold and Silver. That's why Eusine, Buena, and Extremespeed Dratini were there.)
 
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Then, why not actually write the names out as a pair, then? It doesn't take that long to add an extra "/Rosa" to "Nate." Otherwise, you're erasing the girls, and that's not cool.

I prefer to think Ethan is canon because Crystal and HG/SS are remakes of GS.
That's your headcanon and not actual fact. Unless we get a sequel to HGSS that explicitly establishes Ethan as canon like HGSS did so for Red, then Lyra is just as much canon as he is.

(Plus, HGSS were just as much remakes of Crystal as they were Gold and Silver. That's why Eusine, Buena, and Extremespeed Dratini were there.)
Let's not turn this into a canon war, for the sake of simplicity, I'd like to just answer the questions stated in the OP.
 
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I don't count the PWT as canon, because its optional. As for the Red fight, I consider it canon because you get the credits afterwards. It really depends on how you view it.
 
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I don't count the PWT as canon, because its optional. As for the Red fight, I consider it canon because you get the credits afterwards. It really depends on how you view it.
I understand that, BUT, you get a trainer star on your card for completing the Champions Tournament.
 
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Like I said it depends on how you view it. I don't think the stars matter because again they're optional. The ONLY reason why I consider Red's battle canon despite being an optional fight is because of the credits. If it weren't for that I wouldn't consider it canon.
 
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IMO Ethan legitimately beat Red, and that's what rekindled Red's fire, and inspired him to get back into the world rather then living in isolation on Mt. Silver. As for Nate/Rosa, I think Red saw a bit of Ethan in them, and allowed himself to be beaten.
 
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IMO Ethan legitimately beat Red, and that's what rekindled Red's fire, and inspired him to get back into the world rather then living in isolation on Mt. Silver. As for Nate/Rosa, I think Red saw a bit of Ethan in them, and allowed himself to be beaten.
That's a great theory, actually. My answer to my own question is that they both beat him but from an experience standpoint he is the oldest PC and is probably the most skilled trainer.
 
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Question, is the OP asking if both characters beat Red?
If the player characters can fight against this Pokémon Trainer then yes it counts just like it much counts which Pokémon you took in the Fighting Dojo in Saffron City. And on the matter of whether the P.W.T . actually is canon, my thoughts are divided on this but im not thinking about this because that was basically a promotional gimmick like the fusion between Zekrom/Reshiram and Kyurem into White Reshiram & Black Reshiram.
 
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Because, none of the female player characters exist, of course. :rolleyes:

It's debatable on whether or not the PWT is still considered canon, thanks to ORAS. According to the PWT, Juan is the Sootopolis Gym Leader, and Wallace is the Hoenn Champion, which seems to directly contradict ORAS, where Wallace is a gym leader, Steven's the Champion, and Juan doesn't exist.
It's never been confirmed that Juan doesn't exist in ORAS.

Imo, the PWT isn't canon. If it is, then there's a ton of contradictory stuff going on. For one thing, why is Giovanni participating as a gym leader when he should be on the run? If 'past' champions and gym leaders are considered as holding their titles (like Green and Giovanni), where's Koga?

So Nate never beat Red.
 
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It's never been confirmed that Juan doesn't exist in ORAS.
No, it hasn't, but it's very likely. There's no evidence of him anywhere in the leaked data, and no other Emerald exclusives have been incorporated into ORAS so far. The plot will follow RS, the Gym Leaders will have their RS teams, and Wallace/Steven will have their RS roles. Even the Battle Frontier seems to have been replaced, although it's still too early to tell.

It's possible that Juan may appear in the currently unfinished battle facility, but the odds are slim.
 
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[video=youtube;tPRuaDUxayA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRuaDUxayA[/video]

This video explains everything
 
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[video=youtube;tPRuaDUxayA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRuaDUxayA[/video]

This video explains everything
With my own obsession for Red's character, I've already seen this video and many like it, and I think a conclusion like that one is simply the easy way out. The common agreement is that Ethan did win but I'm not saying it makes him better, either. Red is 11 when he starts his journey in Gens I and III, Brendan/May were 10, so Red is and always will be the oldest PC, which means he has the most experience and is referred to as a child prodigy throughout the Kanto games. Ethan and Nate are definitely skilled in their own right, being able to battle and defeat every Gym Leader and Champion Red has had the honor of battling himself. Perhaps Red's team is personal preference, who says he didn't catch the Legendaries you could in FR/LG? In my own playthrough of Red, I started with Charmander and actually found it fitting that I can access all three Gen II mascots due to this choice, Ho-Oh and Lugia on Navel Rock and Suicune due to my choice of Charmander at the start.
 
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[video=youtube;tPRuaDUxayA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRuaDUxayA[/video]

This video explains everything
With my own obsession for Red's character, I've already seen this video and many like it, and I think a conclusion like that one is simply the easy way out. The common agreement is that Ethan did win but I'm not saying it makes him better, either. Red is 11 when he starts his journey in Gens I and III, Brendan/May were 10, so Red is and always will be the oldest PC, which means he has the most experience and is referred to as a child prodigy throughout the Kanto games. Ethan and Nate are definitely skilled in their own right, being able to battle and defeat every Gym Leader and Champion Red has had the honor of battling himself. Perhaps Red's team is personal preference, who says he didn't catch the Legendaries you could in FR/LG? In my own playthrough of Red, I started with Charmander and actually found it fitting that I can access all three Gen II mascots due to this choice, Ho-Oh and Lugia on Navel Rock and Suicune due to my choice of Charmander at the start.
He still has a point its unfair to compare an npc red to you, also you are red. If we were to battle right now it would essentially be red-calem fighting each other (females included ) if I were to load Hg right now and fight red it'd be red-calem fighting an npc generated by gamefreak using gen 1's most popular pokemon.

don't get me wrong I love red (no homo) I still fanboy whenever I get the chance to fight him in a game but he's still an npc (altough that brings up the question now that there's mega evolution which pokemon would red mega evolve? because we all know his next appearance he's going to have one) The real red is you, is me is everyone who played red/blue and their remakes (in my case the remakes)
 
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[video=youtube;tPRuaDUxayA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRuaDUxayA[/video]

This video explains everything
With my own obsession for Red's character, I've already seen this video and many like it, and I think a conclusion like that one is simply the easy way out. The common agreement is that Ethan did win but I'm not saying it makes him better, either. Red is 11 when he starts his journey in Gens I and III, Brendan/May were 10, so Red is and always will be the oldest PC, which means he has the most experience and is referred to as a child prodigy throughout the Kanto games. Ethan and Nate are definitely skilled in their own right, being able to battle and defeat every Gym Leader and Champion Red has had the honor of battling himself. Perhaps Red's team is personal preference, who says he didn't catch the Legendaries you could in FR/LG? In my own playthrough of Red, I started with Charmander and actually found it fitting that I can access all three Gen II mascots due to this choice, Ho-Oh and Lugia on Navel Rock and Suicune due to my choice of Charmander at the start.
He still has a point its unfair to compare an npc red to you, also you are red. If we were to battle right now it would essentially be red-calem fighting each other (females included ) if I were to load Hg right now and fight red it'd be red-calem fighting an npc generated by gamefreak using gen 1's most popular pokemon.

don't get me wrong I love red (no homo) I still fanboy whenever I get the chance to fight him in a game but he's still an npc (altough that brings up the question now that there's mega evolution which pokemon would red mega evolve? because we all know his next appearance he's going to have one) The real red is you, is me is everyone who played red/blue and their remakes (in my case the remakes)
Also to fairly compare PC's you have to: 1. understand the basis of Red's NPC character, and 2. make other PC's into NPC's based on Red. You can refer to this thread to get an idea of what Ethan or Nate's canon teams would be like:

http://bmgf.bulbagarden.net/f226/different-way-play-pokemon-gift-game-event-pokemon-169902/

Oh, and if Origins is any indication, probably Mega Charizard X.
 
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[video=youtube;tPRuaDUxayA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRuaDUxayA[/video]

This video explains everything
Interesting how he brings up the fail state argument but ignores the fact that defeating Red triggers the credits just like with Lance. Using that logic I can also say that the character never challenged the E4/Champion, therefore never became Champion.

GameFreak didn't need to add the credits after beating Red. You don't get them when you fight Steven in Emerald or with Cynthia in BW, so why leave it?
 
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[video=youtube;tPRuaDUxayA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPRuaDUxayA[/video]

This video explains everything
Interesting how he brings up the fail state argument but ignores the fact that defeating Red triggers the credits just like with Lance. Using that logic I can also say that the character never challenged the E4/Champion, therefore never became Champion.

GameFreak didn't need to add the credits after beating Red. You don't get them when you fight Steven in Emerald or with Cynthia in BW, so why leave it?
Exactly. It's arguable if Nate beat Red but I feel like it's pretty obvious that Ethan did.
 
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