Do remakes always overwrite originals?

[EmpoleonProd]

That was mostly just a callback to the original GSC. Archer's dialog in the original Gen 2 already confirmed that he resurrected Team Rocket in hopes of finding Giovanni:

"Oh? You managed to get this far? You must be quite the trainer. We intend to take over this Radio Station and announce our comeback. That should bring our boss Giovanni back from his solo training. We are going to regain our former glory. I won't allow you to interfere with our plans."

"No! Forgive me, Giovanni!"

"How could this be? Our dreams have come to naught. I wasn't up to the task after all. Like Giovanni did before me, I will disband Team Rocket here today. Farewell."

If FRLG are the true canon, then HGSS did a very poor job of acknowledging them. We already know about Archer resurrecting Team Rocket, but what about Team Rocket's operations in the Sevii Islands, from when he was planning all of that out? Why couldn't Archer (or someone else) have mentioned being defeated by a similar-looking kid down there 3 years ago? That would've, then, confirmed that HGSS were using FRLG as canon instead of the original games.

And, again, I repeat my earlier thoughts on how the Final Battle should've looked if they wanted to truly be consistent with FRLG:

One idea I remember seeing on another site in regards to Red's team was that HGSS could've taken advantage of the dual-slot mode on DS Lites and had the final battle on Mt. Silver literally be whoever your character and team in FRLG was. Not only would this have made both Red and Leaf equally canon, but it would also give them teams that are completely unbiased and consistent with FRLG.

Of course, they obviously would've still had to create a "default" team for those who didn't have FRLG or a DS Lite, which could've looked something like this:

- Togekiss
- Espeon
- Snorlax
- Articuno
- Zapdos
- Moltres

No starters, because you could only get one, and that would unfairly privilege one option over another. And, Togepi was a gift exclusive to FRLG, so having Togekiss explicitly recalls those games and not the originals. As for the birds... Well, why not? It's a final battle, so it's supposed to be tough, and those birds still have lower BSTs than Lance's Dragonite Trio.

To add onto that, I would have had the "default" Player Character be Red in HeartGold and Leaf in SoulSilver, so they're both equally acknowledged and one isn't favored over the other. Which fits in perfectly with FRLG.

Now, where ORAS fits in is interesting, I was seriously hoping it would be a sequel so that we WOULDN'T have this issue, but it looks more like a remake, however I'm going to try my best to treat it as a sequel in my mind.

Also, it's interesting to note that in B2/W2 there is a couple consisting of a former Team Magma and former Team Aqua Grunt, which suggests that the teams had been taken down by then, which means ORAS couldn't happen at the same time or after X and Y.

Unfortunately, ORAS are remakes, not sequels, so based on your earlier thoughts, they DO overwrite Emerald. Can't pick and choose. That means, for example, if Juan fails to appear in ORAS, then his existence is just as sketchy as the likes of Jessie, James, Kris, and Leaf, and the canonicity of the PWT and possibly, B2W2 themselves will be called into question.

In other words, the timeline is screwed. :dizzy:

You're always overcomplicating things. No duh we knew Archer from Gen II, but he never appeared in Gen I, but he DID appear in Gen III with FR/LG. And why does Red's team need to be so exact? His current team is 100% possible with FR/LG and it is a homage to Yellow, it doesn't mean Yellow is the canon story of Kanto, but it's to show that Red hasn't changed his team much over the years. Obviously Gen II was based on events from Yellow, but I think they wanted to keep his team with the mascots of the Gen I games and Gift/Event Pokemon Lapras and Snorlax. It just wouldn't feel right if he had Legendaries. It doesn't have to necessarily make sense 100% of the time, maybe they just want to keep Red old school, ever think about that? There could also be a nostalgia factor in the decisions to keep his team about the same.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

I posted in the other thread a good reason why FR/LG were canon. It has to do with the game director. Satoshi Tajiri was the director for the first 2 gens, but after that, including games that are canon such as RSE, Platinum, B/W, B2/W2, and X/Y are all directed by Junichi Masuada. I believe Masuada's story is the canon, not Tajiri's.

 

[BettyN]

And why does Red's team need to be so exact? His current team is 100% possible with FR/LG and it is a homage to Yellow, it doesn't mean Yellow is the canon story of Kanto, but it's to show that Red hasn't changed his team much over the years. Obviously Gen II was based on events from Yellow, but I think they wanted to keep his team with the mascots of the Gen I games and Gift/Event Pokemon Lapras and Snorlax. It just wouldn't feel right if he had Legendaries. It doesn't have to necessarily make sense 100% of the time, maybe they just want to keep Red old school, ever think about that? There could also be a nostalgia factor in the decisions to keep his team about the same.

Because, again, his team was supposed to be 100% NEUTRAL in the original games, meaning no Pokémon that had to be caught in the wild or had to be obtained via trade (outside of the in-game trades). The point was to give him a canon team without privileging one choice over another (hence, the reason why his Eevee evolved into Espeon--which wasn't obtainable in Yellow--over any of the original 3 Eeveelutions).

The Final Battle in HGSS, on the other hand, isn't so neutral if we take FRLG as canon. Not only does it include wild and trade-only Pokémon (as well as establish him as having a starter that many people may not have picked), but it unfairly privileges one player character over another. I wonder how people who played as Leaf might have felt about her not appearing on Mt. Silver?

I posted in the other thread a good reason why FR/LG were canon. It has to do with the game director. Satoshi Tajiri was the director for the first 2 gens, but after that, including games that are canon such as RSE, Platinum, B/W, B2/W2, and X/Y are all directed by Junichi Masuada. I believe Masuada's story is the canon, not Tajiri's.

Even though Tajiri's the creator of the franchise?

(And, BTW, if remakes always replace originals, then RSE aren't canon anymore.)

 

[Champion Red]

So much for discussing other things instead of beating a dieing horse .-.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

Just because Tajiri's the creator doesn't mean he is the story teller anymore. The more you dispute hard evidence the more it just hurts your case and makes you seem like a close minded narcissist that thinks they can't be wrong no matter what. And RSE are still canon at least until OR/AS are released.

 

[BettyN]

The more you dispute hard evidence the more it just hurts your case and makes you seem like a close minded narcissist that thinks they can't be wrong no matter what.

Name-calling is uncool. :thumbd:

And Emerald is still canon until OR/AS are released.

Fixed it for you. If remakes ALWAYS overwrite originals, then Emerald WILL be overwritten, no matter what. Can't pick and choose.

I kind-of loathe FRLG as remakes, while I didn't mind HGSS, for the most part, so does that mean I can just take Yellow as the Gen 1 canon and HGSS as Gen 2's? Only if that "Yellow" is another remake. You either accept the remakes or you don't.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

And there you go, trying to draw attention away from the evidence again so its easier to state your claim. The facts point to FR/LG being the canon. I'm sorry the "Best Game Ever" (in your opinion) Yellow isn't canon. But you've just been completely ignoring hard evidence since the beginning. His Pikachu knows Volt Tackle, Team Rockets executives, and even who the person telling the story was. There's a lot more you've just ignored that I cant remember right this second but just look through both the threads, its there. I really feel for you, I love the old games too. But I have a Charizard in X right now that got a ribbon out of Kanto in FR. Are you saying that game isn't canon so that ribbon doesn't actually exist? It's there. Therefore FR/LG's Kanto exists.

 

[BettyN]

I'm sorry the "Best Game Ever" (in your opinion) Yellow isn't canon.

Actually, my favorite Gen is the 2nd.

But I have a Charizard in X right now that got a ribbon out of Kanto in FR. Are you saying that game isn't canon so that ribbon doesn't actually exist? It's there. Therefore FR/LG's Kanto exists.

If I'm saying that your Charizard's ribbon doesn't exist, then you're saying that my old Yellow cartridge doesn't exist. And, that's just ridiculous.

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

Im saying your yellow does exist. It just isn't canon. And again, with ignoring evidence. I'm done here, I've said my peace, and you can deny it all you like, but the fact remains that your wrong, so you can just believe whatever you want, and I'll know the truth. Goodbye for now.

 

[BettyN]

Im saying your yellow does exist. It just isn't canon. And again, with ignoring evidence. I'm done here, I've said my peace, and you can deny it all you like, but the fact remains that your wrong, so you can just believe whatever you want, and I'll know the truth. Goodbye for now.

And, who anointed YOU as the Grand Poobah of Right and Wrong?

You know, I WANT to believe that FRLG are the "true" canon for Gen 1, but the games just don't line up well enough with HGSS. Despite being supposed sequels to FRLG, HGSS kept all of the Yellow callbacks from GSC and didn't reference any of the things that FRLG, specifically, added to Gen 1. You know, the things that make FRLG distinct from Red/Blue and especially, Yellow.

Maybe, if FRLG had done what HGSS did with Crystal and incorporated things from Yellow, this wouldn't have been a problem. But, they didn't, and HGSS didn't change anything about GSC (which DID take Yellow as canon) to accommodate that, creating HUGE continuity issues between the Gen 1 and 2 stories.

And, now, we have yet, another pair of remakes coming out that are also needlessly ignoring their Generation's Third Version. A Third Version that has also already been established as the canon story by another game.

The timeline is screwed. hdear:

 

[UnseeingRaccoon]

Then yellow is canon. Nothing else exists in the whole friggin pokemon world except the stories from Yellow and Crystal. You win, I'm done arguing childishly with you about what I know and you "think" you know. Cancelling subscription to this thread and I'm done arguing with short sighted people who continuously ignore the facts that are hitting them in the face. And BTW nobody anointed me as the Grand Poobah of Right and Wrong, but Masuada was anointed the Grand Poobah of the pokemon game story by game freak, so there's that. Peace!

 

[BettyN]

Then yellow is canon. Nothing else exists in the whole friggin pokemon world except the stories from Yellow and Crystal. You win, I'm done arguing childishly with you about what I know and you "think" you know. Cancelling subscription to this thread and I'm done arguing with short sighted people who continuously ignore the facts that are hitting them in the face. And BTW nobody anointed me as the Grand Poobah of Right and Wrong, but Masuada was anointed the Grand Poobah of the pokemon game story by game freak, so there's that. Peace!

Good grief, have you even READ a single thing I posted?

 

[VGOldSchool]

I'd like to not necessarily think a remake/update overwrites the original, but rather are two interpretations of the same story.

I think if you're passionate about things, it's really easy to get into the canon fodder. I rather liken it to story telling; If the majority of the details are mostly the same, but there are some tweaks, it's just a different flavor to the same story.

 

[turkey]

Yeah, getting ORAS to fit into the timeline right is gonna be fun My timeline is the same as Empoleon's, so I won't repeat it.

This is a big reason why I wish the remakes had just ended with HGSS, and ORAS were sequels, instead. The first two Gens were sequential and happened on the other side of the Great Generational Divide, so remaking them was fairly easy without mucking up the timeline.

Gen 3, on the other hand, not only hit the reset button and had RSE taking place before GSC, but it also included its own pair of remakes (which will have to be addressed, like it or not). There's just no way to remake any of that without hitting the reset button again and having XY coincide with Gens 1 and 3, which I know a lot of fans probably wouldn't want.

Actually rse are being remade BECAUSE of hg/ss. The only remakes that we needed were frlg. They were released immediately after rse because without them you couldn't complete the pokedex. Once the were made, however, there was no need to replay johto except for fan demand... which is why they made hgss. Exact same applies to rse. If gsc were remade because of fan demand, then it would only be fair for the games to be as well

Forget your "great generational divide", technically remakes should have ended at frlg

 

[EmpoleonProd]

In the ORAS section it was mentioned that in the games, and I won't go into detail or spoil anything for people who haven't played it, but RSE was almost directly mentioned as an alternate universe or timeline for Hoenn where the ultimate weapon was never created and Mega Evolution never existed. Several people in that section came up with the idea that there are three main alternate universes:

Yellow -> Crystal

FR/LG/E -> HG/SS/Pl -> BW -> BW2

ORAS -> XY

They also note the prime differences between the three and note the effect of time travel in the original games that possibly corrupted that universe.

Okay so the point I'm trying to say is, since ORAS came out the idea of a multiverse with differing variables and outcomes seems more likely than ever for the Pokemon universe.

And now even the Mystery Dungeon Series, at least the original one, can be considered a canon universe.

SPOILERS (I'm on a phone and can't use spoiler tags!!!!!!):



In the Delta Episode, when Zinnia mentions that if they warp the meteoroid it could collide with Emerald-Hoenn, and then Deoxys ends up coming out of the meteoroid, I found it to be a human-world replica of the Mystery Dungeon crisis, where you had to fight Rayquaza as Pokemon instead of as a Trainer, get it to stop the meteoroid, only to find Deoxys in a dungeon later on that was made by the meteoroid. What if THAT'S the alternate universe that the meteoroid was warped to in an alternate timeline where they do warp it away from Hoenn?

 

[Felly]

I don't think the remake overwrites the original, but it rather expands upon what the original already told us while also fitting it into the current timeline.

For example, ORAS includes more details about Mega Evolution and Primal Reversion. Mega Evolution was originally introduced in XY. ORAS takes that Mega Evolution concept and goes more in depth with it while also keeping the original story. Team Aqua/Magma are going to get Kyogre/Groudon to make the world a better place, but it ends up getting worse as a result of the primal Pokemon being released into the world.

Spoiler

In regards to the Delta Episode, that expands upon it all further in that there was something that happened 3000 years ago that had the potential to destroy Hoenn, therefore bringing new light to the situation while also putting in alternate timelines of situations.

All in all, I think it just expands upon the original story rather than overwriting it completely. It's all canon.

 

[Esserise]

Several people in that section came up with the idea that there are three main alternate universes:

Yellow -> Crystal

FR/LG/E -> HG/SS/Pl -> BW -> BW2

ORAS -> XY

That's been (more or less) my interpretation of it since even before ORAS. We've known since at least BW that Pokémon is a multiverse, what with Black City/White Forest being mentioned in White/Black, and the Cell Battery subplot in which an NPC uses an Electric type "from another universe" (i.e. traded over from the opposite version) in order to contact that universe.

However, as the post above me says, there's no reason why it can't all be considered canonical, especially when you look at it from the perspective of a multiverse. The way that I think of it is,

Timeline 1: Red/Green/Blue(/Yellow, if you're into that kind of thing*) > Gold/Silver/Crystal

Timeline 2: FireRed/LeafGreen & Emerald (Ruby/Sapphire aren't overwritten, but are rendered non-canonical by other elements in B2W2**) > HeartGold/SoulSilver & Platinum (same deal for Diamond/Pearl as with Ruby/Sapphire, except they're rendered null by elements in BW**) > Black/White > Black 2/White 2

Timeline 3: Pokémon Origins (it may as well be the FRLG equivalent for the Mega Universe; it's very faithful to the in-game universe's mechanics and setting, and was released in conjunction with XY anyway) > Omega Ruby/Alpha Sapphire > X/Y

And even then, first and second Versions don't necessarily have to correspond to one another, except in the case of BW and their sequels which are not cross-compatible, narrative-wise. You could easily mix-and-match them, like say have the second timeline consist of LG/E > HG/P > W > W2.


* While it is true that Red in GSCHGSS uses a team that features Pikachu as his ace, as well as all three Kanto Starters (which would seem to implicate Yellow as the canonical Version), there is nothing saying that he couldn't have traded for or obtained those Starters some other way, and Pikachu can be caught in Viridian Forest. A Pikachu being his ace is, at most, a nod to the anime and to the fact that Pikachu is the mascot of the franchise. Yellow is a back-adaptation of the anime; basically just squeezing the anime back into the game universe, and wasn't initially planned anyway (if I recall correctly, they made it in order to pass the time while they worked on GS, which was taking longer than intended). The technical "third Version" of Gen I is Blue, which in Japan, followed the initial pair of Red and Green. So all Gen I games are still on an equal footing as far as canonicity goes.

** In theory, you could still find a way to rationalize RS and DP with what's stated in BW and B2W2, if you really wanted to. All that it would need is a little bit of imagination. I'm just looking at it from a strictly in-game point of view.

 

[Dr. Buni]

That was the most reasonable thing to believe until Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire happened, yes. Remakes overwrited the original games.

Not anymore, though. Pokémon went Marvel with the multiverse shenanigans.

 

[Absent]

I imagine there being many universes but the main ones we've played would be like:

FRLG/RSE->HGSS/DPPt->BW->BW2/XY(Without Mega Evolution)

FRLG(With Megas)/ORAS->HGSS/DPPt(With Mega Evolution)->BW(With Megas)->BW2(With Megas)/XY

Basically one timeline with Megas and the other without.

 

[bst011]

I imagine there being many universes but the main ones we've played would be like:

FRLG/RSE->HGSS/DPPt->BW->BW2/XY(Without Mega Evolution)

FRLG(With Megas)/ORAS->HGSS/DPPt(With Mega Evolution)->BW(With Megas)->BW2(With Megas)/XY

Basically one timeline with Megas and the other without.

That is if you believe that timeline which was originally fan speculation. To me free trading between FRLG and RSE dosent make them take place in the same continuity. Unless we see this time line in game or unless Masuda confirms it I will continue to believe that the games have no continuity after sequels. After all ORAS Is contemporary with XY according to the logic that proclamed FRLG and RSE and HGSS and DPPt are contemporary, respectively. A game can't be simultaneously contemporary and in the past of another game unless the events of ORAS take place over a ten year period.