Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region?

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Maybe you dont remember but in one of episodes from Kanto,when Ash was starting his journey wanting to challenge Viridian gym,Misty mentioned how its smarter to challenge some other "easier" gyms like Pewter one before going for this one.Dont believe me,go rewatch Kanto episodes if your looking for proof.

I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, because it's been a while since I watched the Kanto series. But point out to me exactly when she said that. Because as I recall it, gyms weren't even discussed until Ash arrived in Pewter City, at which time, the discussion was of the Pewter City gym, not Viridian. In fact, it wasn't even until then that Ash learned about gyms and badges, when Misty lectured him after getting excited about the "Regional Championships". So when did she say this to him? Was this some time between bickering with him about her bike or dealing with the Team Rocket crisis?

I'm curious.

By the way, Misty also wanted Ash to bypass Cerulean City altogether, and go on to Vermillion... So if there were some kind of set path, how would that even be possible?

And i didnt mentioned "most of challengers" but "most of rookies" who are from Kanto,thats not the same.Do you even understand how gyms and pokemon league works?

Actually, tard, your exact words were, "majority of challengers are rookies", implying that most challengers ARE rookies, or in other words, claiming that they're one in the same. So how is that not the same? And yes, more so than you.

Your right she wouldnt fight mostly only against rookie trainers,but those at medium level aswell,"big difference".As for battling against "stronger rookies",thats not true she is battling against beginners aswell.

Stronger rookies? By "ones", I meant trainers, not rookies; meaning stronger trainers. Anyway, yeah, she'd battle beginners as well. Did I ever deny that? It happens. But you've implied that she'd get no challenges out of being a gym leader, while my argument is that she'll get plenty.

More than 50% of challengers at gyms are rookies.How much people every year participate in Indigo League?Well just do the math,how many trainers start their journey in Kanto,take into account how many from them are fromn Kantoi and how many are from other regions,it shouldnt be too hard.

What the fuck? Not too hard? Okay, calculate it then, using approximate numbers, with evidential support behind these numbers, since it "shouldn't be too hard". I'd love to find out where you get the numbers from. This will be entertaining.

Assuming that it is more than 50%, that's still at least, what? Anywhere from 15-25% of experienced trainers with experienced Pokemon? And that's not going to improve her? Compared to, say, Ash, who encounters the occassional trainer, battles TR so often, and hits up only 8 gyms over the course of a long ass journey?

And as for the trainers who actually do begin their journeys in Kanto. Amongst the "more than 50%" who start their journeys in that region as rookies, at least half of them are likely to battle her by the time they've got a lot of skill and experience under their belt, both as trainer and Pokemon. This is especially probable when you consider the fact that Cerulean is one way to get to Viridian and the Indigo Road.

Lol,yes because gym leaders are such a "strong trainers".It seems that you dont understand how gym works.

No, it seems you simply speak out of your ass, constantly.

As i said job of a gym leader is to test upcoming trainers to see if they are ready to partake in pokemon league.That pretty much explains the reason why they sometimes lose to rookies aswell.

Lose to what rookies exactly? And which trainers exactly? Blaine constantly stepped on rookies, and that's why he WANTED challengers like Ash to come along. Lt. Surge put rookie trainers' Pokemon in the ICU. Brock scoffed at a rookie Pokemon like Ash's. Sabrina was apparently so strong that she played her matches under high stakes. And do I even need to get on Giovanni?

Trainers like Gary aren't rookies, if that's what you're referring to. Look at how well he raised his Pokemon, and what he did to Giovanni's Pokemon--but none of these gym leaders are facing a challenge? Gary was simply strong, and yet he didn't even get out of the 4th round at the Indigo League, implying there were tons more strong trainers who had to go through these gym leaders. While Ash, who wasn't as talented as Gary throughout the first half of his journey, had to rely on various assistance, including coaching from the likes of Brock.

So what rookies are they losing to exactly? And how are they not facing challenges when they've had trainers like Gary and stronger? Everyone who specializes at something has to start somewhere, meaning every trainer's bound to be a rookie at some point. But some of those trainers go on to huge success--so they aren't challenges to GLs? Just about everyone who made it to the Pokemon League were tough trainers.

There is a reason why gym leaders arent highly leveled trainers.

Who says they aren't? You? That's a laughable source.

With your theory and "amount of experience which they receive" over the years,

That's not a theory, that's a fact. "It seems you don't know how" Pokemon works. Go pick up a DS and learn.

Why did Misty initially left the gym in start of her journey back than in Kanto?Because she wanted to achieve her dream of becoming one of the strongest trainers in the world,and that obviously isnt possible to do at gym.

Misty left because she wanted to prove something to her sisters, whom she ultimately ended up being better than as a trainer anyway. And we're talking about Misty's goal as a type-specific trainer, which is best achieved at the gym or as an E-4 member. Or are you such a clown that you've even forgot what you're arguing?

Nevertheless aside from Blaine mentioning how he is tyred from battling against weaker trainers and wants bigger challenge,

Which he got from a trainer like Ash... And Ash lost in the R16, so that means there were at least 15 other trainers he could've potentially faced at an even higher level. In addition to trainers like Gary, and other trainers of the 3rd-4th round tier.

And going back to the point about what kind of trainers Misty's likely to face: Assuming that Blaine did in fact challenge a mass of rookie competitors, then that would mean that not every rookie starts back at Pewter and Cerulean like you've stated.

aside from fact how Brocks father Flint said how its a shame that someone like Brock who has enough potential to be great trainer,even challenging pokemon league,is just a mere gym leader.

Flint stated "His own talents can take him much farther than the local gym leader". Wait, what's that? A gym leader that's talented? I thought you were just arguing how gym leaders were at such a weak level? Yet they've got someone like Brock?

By the by, if Brock is in fact so talented, then this again, knocks down your theory that trainers all start at Pewter, or that he's significantly weaker than some of the later gym leaders.

Seriously your overestimating gym leaders.Lets compare for example Morty(gym leader from Johto) who is using ghost types with Agatha E4 member.He obviously isnt even close to her level.

Yeah, Morty's also a teenager, while Agatha's Oak's age.

The same goes for omparisons between Pryce and Lorelai etc.

Because there are other factors like skill to take into account. And if someone's already gotten the position whose better than you, then that's one thing. But that's not to say Pryce is weak.

Let me ask you this.Isnt Ashs goal becoming pokemon master,being the strongest pokemon trainer in the world or onbe of the best.Than howcome someone who wants to achieve this(Ash is just an example) isnt settling down to becoming frontier brain or gym leader,when by your theory he would receive as much experience as its the case when your travelling.

Ash isn't limited to type specifications. He's trying to be the world's best trainer. Not the world's best of a single type.

As a gym leader, Misty would encounter tons of trainers coming into her gym, expecting water works, and attacking her with types like Grass, Electric, etc... She'll face any kind of Pokemon coming her way (like Sakura and her Espeon), while she'll be restricting herself to these same types. That's all the practice she needs.

,and i dont have time to write several paragraphs looking as an esey to prove to some people,why gym leaders arent high level trainers,and how many experience they really get which isnt nearly as much like amount of experience when your travelling.

No one asked you to write anything. In fact, I'd be glad if you didn't.
--------------------------------
To summarize on some points hit...
- Gym Leaders aren't weak. They're tests.
- Gym leaders don't lose to rookie trainers, they lose only to the exceptional trainers, who then go on to become potential champions.
- There's also the fact that gym leaders can adjust their Pokemon depending on the trainer's level (Brock apparently had a Graveller sitting at home, but chose to use his Geodude against Ash instead)
- Not every rookie starts off going from Pewter to Cerulean.
- Because of that, Misty and other gym leaders can easily face trainers in the later stages of their journey, where they'll be a lot stronger.
- Trainers from one region enter others, with experience and strong Pokemon, meaning the gym leaders will face them as well.

Also, are you starting to see why your logic makes no sense? On one hand you claim that gym leaders are weak, which would mean every trainer beating them is weak too. On another hand you claim that gym leaders aren't getting enough experience, because the trainers facing them suck. Where's the middle ground? And if that were so, are you suggesting that every trainer who makes it to the Plateau is weak? If that were the case, then how do some of them become E4 members to begin with? Are you implying that everyone in all of Pokemon sucks outside of the E4? But hmm, I wonder how they get to be like that? And if GLs were so pathetic, what's the point of going around battling them? Simply to make it to the league? To do what? Fight fellow rookies? So does it take several regions worth of experience to be good?

And you want to talk about flawed arguments.
-------

You Misty fans, honestly... Something must be in the Cerulean Water.

I've said my parts. I'm done with this, because you all will take the smallest trash and fabricate an argument out of it.

 

[Grave-E]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Refreshing change is because it would provide something different than the same old formula of gyms and contests,

How would it? They're still pokémon trainers, are they not? Ergo, they'll have to compete in some form of competition or a series of tournamnets that involve battling in order to progress and display some development.

Oh, yeah. But it's with one type. Now that really IS ground-breaking, refreshing stuff!

and someone can be interesting and a lot of things can be done with him if he has one type aswell.

What's your point? Someone can be interesting and a lot of things can be done with them if they have the ability to obtain any one of the 16 types and their numerous combinations they please.

Water types are diverse you say? Oh, wait, they're bringing in a new character who ISN'T Misty and trains FLYING types! Oh, there are loads of those!
Not too hot an the idea now, huh?

Why on earth they would introduce new character who acts in same way being like "Mistys clone" when they could just bring her back.This doesnt make any sense.

...now, perhaps my memory is a little shot, but I don't ever recall saying 'Bring in a a character that is essentially Misty in a different skin'.
Nor was I aware that 'a new character that is completely different to what we're used to' instantly indicated that they HAVE to act like Misty.

I mean, good lord man. She wasn't the benchmark of the entire damn series you know.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

So when did she say this to him? Was this some time between bickering with him about her bike or dealing with the Team Rocket crisis?

It was in one of episodes when they were in Viridian town,if i recall correctly it was in "Pokemon Emergency",but im not 100% sure.

But you've implied that she'd get no challenges out of being a gym leader, while my argument is that she'll get plenty.

When did i said that she will never get any challenge,what im saying is that battling mostly against rookies and mediocre trainers is holding her potential back.She cant get much stronger with current position and the logical way to improve more is with option of travelling.

Assuming that it is more than 50%, that's still at least, what? Anywhere from 15-25% of experienced trainers with experienced Pokemon? And that's not going to improve her? Compared to, say, Ash, who encounters the occassional trainer, battles TR so often, and hits up only 8 gyms over the course of a long ass journey?

And where did you included low level and mediocre trainers in your calculation exactly?
And your wrong someone who is travelling like Ash does can learn a lot more and gain more experience than someone who is at one place like gym leaders.Judging by his success so far and accomplishments should prove to you,how you can improve much more while travelling.

Lose to what rookies exactly? And which trainers exactly? Blaine constantly stepped on rookies, and that's why he WANTED challengers like Ash to come along.

Who was talking about rookies in Blaines case.Low level and mediocre trainers are also in the category of weak trainers.As for trainers who are starting their journey by receiving their first pokemon in Pallet they will first go to Pewter and Cerulean gym in order to gain their badges.

Trainers like Gary aren't rookies, if that's what you're referring to.

Gary was also rookie at one point,and when he was starting his journey he wasnt very experienced either.

Who says they aren't? You? That's a laughable source.

Your right i cant argue with someone who consider gym leaders being on same level like high level trainers,league champions,E4 members etc.Which is pretty much ridiculous.

That's not a theory, that's a fact. "It seems you don't know how" Pokemon works. Go pick up a DS and learn.

It seems that you dont understand how anime=/=games.Speaking about games,E4 members are on higher level than gym leaders.

Misty left because she wanted to prove something to her sisters, whom she ultimately ended up being better than as a trainer anyway.

She also left to become worlds greatest water pokemon trainer which was mentioned in "Waterflowers of Cerulean City" episode.

And we're talking about Misty's goal as a type-specific trainer, which is best achieved at the gym or as an E-4 member.

Do you even understand what term of water pokemon master means?I guess not.
It means being the strongest or one of the strongest water type trainers in the world knowing everything about them,being worldwide recognized and respected.
Nevertheless in "Around The Whirlpool" episode when Ash and Misty were subscribing for Whirl Cup prof.Elm stated how by winning this tournament you become Alpha Omega of water pokemon,and how water pokemon masters used to be called by that name.Of course winning one tournament doesnt make you master at that type,but it brings you one step closer toward this goal.
If you didnt noticed all masters of pokemon types which we so far met through series like LorelaI(ice type master),Lance(dragon type master) etc.were highly leveled trainers and E4 members.Noone so far was a gym leader and it was with reason,because being gym leader doesnt make you master at that type.
Also judging by Misty and her dialogue while travelling she showed great deal of interest in E4 members and participating in water based events saying how this is going to help her toward her goal.If you dont remember she didnt wanted to become gym leader in the first place and become one only out of obligation.As i said gym can take you only at one point.After that further progress isnt possible,except by leaving it for longer period of time.
One more thing,you do realize that this what your saying is kind of contradictory because someone cant be master of some type and gym leader at the same time,because it would be unfair toward challengers who would never have a chance to win a badge.

Flint stated "His own talents can take him much farther than the local gym leader". Wait, what's that? A gym leader that's talented? I thought you were just arguing how gym leaders were at such a weak level? Yet they've got someone like Brock?

And WHEN did i said how gym leaders are weak?I was just saying how considering the amount of experience which they are getting through challengers which they encounter at the gym,they cant become much stronger as they already are.What Flint actually said is how "this position is holding back his potential and talent" and cases like with Blaine and some other should show you whats the case with gyms and challengers.

Anyway great way to avoid all my questions?Has it ever occured to you why people who are gym leaders for their whole life,who has "tons of experience" under their belt battling for years arent even close to E4 members or very skilled trainers.
No please tell me who is saying stupid things in this whole story,you or me?If you cant understand that the reason for this is not receiving enough experience,learning enough thats not my problem.

Yeah, Morty's also a teenager, while Agatha's Oak's age.

On the other hand Blaine/Pryce are old people,while someone like Lance,Aaron,Bruno etc. are younger ones and however they managed to become more stronger in a lot less time than above examples will ever be.Hmm i wonder why.

But that's not to say Pryce is weak.

Noone said that,but he isnt highly skilled either.

Ash isn't limited to type specifications. He's trying to be the world's best trainer. Not the world's best of a single type.

You do realize that someone to become a gym leader doesnt have to restrict himself to just one type.So with this said,you still didnt explained why someone who is aiming for becoming what Ash wants to become is travelling instead of being a gym leader when by your logic "he can get as much experience".

As a gym leader, Misty would encounter tons of trainers coming into her gym,

What matters is quality,not quantity.

- Gym leaders don't lose to rookie trainers, they lose only to the exceptional trainers, who then go on to become potential champions.

What the?Gym leaders dont lose to rookies?They only lose to exceptional trainers?What are you talking about????
Than how do you explain the fact that Ash when starting as rookie managed to beat them(not counting wins under unpredictable circumstances),and this what your saying doesnt make any sense because in that case noone from starters would never manage to win badges later on qualifying himself to enter pokemon league.
Gyms are like somekind of tool which trainers use in order to qualify themselves for pokemon league.
And they arent losing only to rookies but other sort of trainers aswell,like Sakura from chronicle episodes who isnt exactly in category of highly skilled trainers(if you know what that means).In that category are also included experienced trainers,mediocre ones etc.

- Trainers from one region enter others, with experience and strong Pokemon, meaning the gym leaders will face them as well.

Sure they do,but compared to number of challengers from that reegion and amount of rookies/startes and mediocre trainers they are in minority.

On another hand you claim that gym leaders aren't getting enough experience, because the trainers facing them suck.

Im claiming what it should be obvious by now.They battle against experienced trainers aswell,but not as much like thats the case with trainers on lower levels.
All im saying is that you can become stronger and accomplish more by travelling than staying trapped at one place wasting your time,lowering your potential.The thing with gyms is that this position can only take you so far and after you reach that point further progress isnt possible.
Point is that GL arent high level trainers and its more than obvious why thats the case.

And if that were so, are you suggesting that every trainer who makes it to the Plateau is weak?

Except that i never said that and i would be grateful if you could refrain from putting your words in my mouth.Thanks.

EDIT:
To Grave-E:About comment about water types and their diversity,they are more diverse than flying types.Just pointing something out.

 

[ShinyAeon]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Just had to address this one point...

Seeing how Misty is currently miserable with the job (Heck, she skips out at every opportunity, and deliberately held back the return to the Gym during the Mt. Moon Arc in Battle Frontier), for all we know, she might as well BE losing to rookie Pokemon

Miserable...? What forsaken outer corner of the Oort Cloud did THAT idea come from?!

Skips out at every opportunity...? Lessee...she HAD to go get badges in the Chronicles, that was part of her job, so that doesn't even count. Then she was invited to a (fake) Togepi festival (at which she could also see Ash and Brock), then she went to Pallet to see Ash come home, then she went when invited to help test a new battle system by a flatteringly worded letter.

So, in two out of the three at least, she knew she could see one or more of her closest friends (and she may have had an inkling that they'd be involved in the third). Only one (the Pallet Town one) seemed likely to keep her away more than a couple-three days.

Wow, three times away from the job in a whole arc, how irresponsible of her...maybe her sisters should just shackle her to diving board to stop all that footloose galivantin' o'hers...

(You're one of those people who think taking sick days and paid vacation is stealing from the company, aren't you?)

Maybe, I dunno, she held back returning to the Gym because...she was enjoying everyone's company? Not just Ash and Brock, but May and Max, who she hit it off with quite well before and hadn't seen since? The fact that she loved spending time with them does NOT imply she is miserable at the Gym! I'm sure she would have been thrilled if she could have had both at once, but, she couldn't.

And the fact that she resents her lazy sisters refusing to cover for her or help her out doesn't mean she isn't happy being a gym leader; no matter HOW much you enjoy a job, it's still a position of responsibility, and a person wants to know that they'll have back-up in a pinch...or if, say, they want to spend a few days seeing some old friends who they really miss....

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Miserable...? What forsaken outer corner of the Oort Cloud did THAT idea come from?!

Well, let's see, her reaction in GCYL was a bit obvious, she still felt some resentment towards doing the Job in Cerulean Blues, she once mentioned "Why do I feel like Cinderella?" in regards to one of the Gym Duties (Usually, someone who mentions feeling like Cinderella, if you've ever read the story, would imply that they hate their job.), the only time she EVER felt happy in that "Blue Badge of Courage" episode was when Sakura came over, and that's only because they were good friends. There's also the fact that she skipped out of the Gym to visit friends and a Togepi festival (a fake one that is, but still), visit Ash, and testing a Battling System. How is that any different than, oh, I dunno, her sisters going on a cruise around the world?

Skips out at every opportunity...? Lessee...she HAD to go get badges in the Chronicles, that was part of her job, so that doesn't even count. Then she was invited to a (fake) Togepi festival (at which she could also see Ash and Brock), then she went to Pallet to see Ash come home, then she went when invited to help test a new battle system by a flatteringly worded letter.

Ok, first opportunity that DOESN'T involve her job (I'm willing to make exception to the Blue Badge of Courage).

However, someone who truly likes their job would NOT leave the Gym and skip out for trivial things. For example, she could just deny the invitation to the Togepi Festival, she could deny the invitation to the testing of a new battle system, she could even foresake her old friends just to keep her job. Heck, how many times has Ash visited any old friends in regards to something or to say hi? (He certainly didn't visit Misty.)

So, in two out of the three at least, she knew she could see one or more of her closest friends (and she may have had an inkling that they'd be involved in the third). Only one (the Pallet Town one) seemed likely to keep her away more than a couple-three days.

Wow, three times away from the job in a whole arc, how irresponsible of her...maybe her sisters should just shackle her to diving board to stop all that footloose galivantin' o'hers...

(You're one of those people who think taking sick days and paid vacation is stealing from the company, aren't you?)

Actually, I think Sick days are the only exception to the rules in regards to things. Besides, getting Sick [and by that, I mean ACTUALLY getting Sick, not putting a magnifying glass on the thermometer) and skipping out are two different things.

Maybe, I dunno, she held back returning to the Gym because...she was enjoying everyone's company? Not just Ash and Brock, but May and Max, who she hit it off with quite well before and hadn't seen since? The fact that she loved spending time with them does NOT imply she is miserable at the Gym! I'm sure she would have been thrilled if she could have had both at once, but, she couldn't.

Paige Fox from "FoxTrot" cares more about hanging out with her friends than going to school (In fact, some dialogue, especially near the beginning and end of school implies that she and her friends HATE school.)

And the fact that she resents her lazy sisters refusing to cover for her or help her out doesn't mean she isn't happy being a gym leader; no matter HOW much you enjoy a job, it's still a position of responsibility, and a person wants to know that they'll have back-up in a pinch...or if, say, they want to spend a few days seeing some old friends who they really miss....

You're right, she is responsible for keeping the Gym. But she's not responsible enough. Heck, when has Brock ever tried to actually visit friends when doing the Gym Leading (The only free time he ever had was when he left the gym.). And the only reason why HE has to do Gym Leading is because of his siblings. I mean, he COULD try and go to a Pokemon League (it's stated that he has the skills for it. besides, Pewter Gym isn't THAT far from the Indigo Plateau.), but he doesn't, instead staying in Pewter City, near the Gym, which is conveniently at his House, so he could care for the kids.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

And the fact that she resents her lazy sisters refusing to cover for her or help her out doesn't mean she isn't happy being a gym leader; no matter HOW much you enjoy a job, it's still a position of responsibility, and a person wants to know that they'll have back-up in a pinch...or if, say, they want to spend a few days seeing some old friends who they really miss....

To be honest situation with Cerulean gym is a little bit complicated.Whether Misty wants to travell again or not she doesnt have a choice because there is noone good enough there to replace her.

Nevertheless about Misty being happy at the gym thats partially true,but from what it has been implied she would rather want to travell,and the main reason why she isnt leaving the gym are her incompetent sisters.
Following episodes "Gotta Catch Ya Later","A Date With Delcatty"(original Japanese version not the dubbed one) and to some extent "A Real Cleffa Hanger" shows displeasure from her side with her current position.

 

[Grave-E]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

To Grave-E:About comment about water types and their diversity,they are more diverse than flying types.Just pointing something out.

There are lots of water types, there are lots of flying types. My point still stands.

 

[ii kanji]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

However, someone who truly likes their job would NOT leave the Gym and skip out for trivial things. For example, she could just deny the invitation to the Togepi Festival, she could deny the invitation to the testing of a new battle system, she could even foresake her old friends just to keep her job. Heck, how many times has Ash visited any old friends in regards to something or to say hi? (He certainly didn't visit Misty.)

Weedle, how many times has Satoshi turned up to a gym to find the gym leader NOT IN?! They're (meant to be) humans, not little sprites on a GB screen - they go places, why should they not? Just because they're GLs, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to leave the gym.

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Weedle, how many times has Satoshi turned up to a gym to find the gym leader NOT IN?! They're (meant to be) humans, not little sprites on a GB screen - they go places, why should they not? Just because they're GLs, doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to leave the gym.

Actually, it does mean that, seeing how Cerulean City Gym nearly got shut down in "Cerulean Blue" due to the Gym Leader(s) not being present for the inspection, and the way the director of the PIA mentioned how he shuts down Gyms implies that ALL Gyms in ALL regions are subject to that rule. How the PIA had allowed the Hearthome Gym to continue running despite Fantina breaking said rule is anyone's guess (I mean, for goodness sakes, Fantina didn't even leave it with a temporary gym leader).

 

[ii kanji]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Actually, it does mean that, seeing how Cerulean City Gym nearly got shut down in "Cerulean Blue" due to the Gym Leader(s) not being present for the inspection, and the way the director of the PIA mentioned how he shuts down Gyms implies that ALL Gyms in ALL regions are subject to that rule. How the PIA had allowed the Hearthome Gym to continue running despite Fantina breaking said rule is anyone's guess (I mean, for goodness sakes, Fantina didn't even leave it with a temporary gym leader).

I don't really remember this episode too well, but surely this is just like an inspection of anything else - it only happens every so often and therefore you've only gotta do a good job when this guy (what does PIA stand for?) turns up, which is why Melissa and Kasumi are't the only gym leaders we've seen who've just shut up shop for a bit.

 

[Cybersai]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Wow. I'm not going to even bother responding to all that above.

Anyway, Misty has only ever been in 4 episodes since she left the series at the end of Johto. 2 in Hoenn, 2 1/2 after it ended. She was only in the last minute of the ep where Ash battled Agatha so I count that with the next ep.

If it wasn't for the specials, you'd realize Misty has actually barely appeared at all since she left the series.

There's been a what now...180+ episode gap since she was last in an episode? And a 300 something episode gap since she was last a main character?

 

[PDL]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

I don't really remember this episode too well, but surely this is just like an inspection of anything else - it only happens every so often and therefore you've only gotta do a good job when this guy (what does PIA stand for?) turns up, which is why Melissa and Kasumi are't the only gym leaders we've seen who've just shut up shop for a bit.

I'd like to add that Fantina is capable of leaving her gym unattended because of two reasons:

1. She started to journey in the first place to further her carrier as gym leader. She was traveling to develop a battle style she could use at the gym. Misty only left her gym a few times that were unrelated to furthering her status as gym leader.

2. There's also the reputation of the gym: Fantina's gym is supposed to be one of the nicest gyms in Sinnoh, and one of the main Pokémon-centric fixtures in Hearthome, which is made out to be a very fancy well-to-do city. It's supposed to have a reputation for being an excellent gym.

Cerulean's gym on the other hand was in complete shambles when it was under the care of Misty's sisters. They gave badges away for minor things such as cleaning the gym or doing errends. Which is not only against league rules, but it doesn't test out the challenging trainer's Pokémon, which is what gyms are supposed to do in the first place. It probably wasn't seen as nothing more then an ordinary aquarium/public pool/arena. Misty wants to restore the gym's reputation, which is probably more important then journeying on the road with friends.

 

[Weedle Mchairybug]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

I don't really remember this episode too well, but surely this is just like an inspection of anything else - it only happens every so often and therefore you've only gotta do a good job when this guy (what does PIA stand for?) turns up, which is why Melissa and Kasumi are't the only gym leaders we've seen who've just shut up shop for a bit.

The PIA (That is, the Pokemon Inspection Agency, also known as Gym inspectors or League inspectors.), made it quite clear that they have zero-tolerance for even the littlest things. Meaning, they are more than content with shutting down a Gym if the Gym Leader in question is absent for a day, or heck, even a minute without a temporary Gym Leader covering for him/her. This was stated in a news bulletin in regards to the PIA cracking down gyms that need to be shut down.

Aside from the stuff like shutting down a gym just because the Gym Leader isn't around (or heck, not even having a suitable substitute gym leader nearby.), they also tend to shut down Gyms if they meet the Three "U"'s, which is Unsafe, Unclean, and Uncool (Actually, considering how Lola was probably around for the PIA inspection when she almost destroyed the Gym, I'm surprised that Pewter Gym actually passed, since it would have had met up with two of the U's, and thus, wasn't likely to stay a Gym.).

You see, for Fantina's case, since she was gone for over a month, at least, and several months, at worst, then she most certainly would have cost herself the Gym as a consequence. As for Misty's case, seeing how the PIA doesn't even allow GL's to leave without a temporary gym leader at all times, she shouldn't leave under any circumstances unless her sisters are around.

I mean, even leaving for a second would place the gym at risk, seeing the "Zero Tolerance" level that the PIA has.

Also, as for Fantina, I don't think the PIA would ignore her extended absence, seeing how so many people are disappointed at their being denied a match with Fantina due to her not being there, and not even leaving a Temp. Gym Leader in her place.

To sum it all up, unless the writers a. decided to have Daisy decide to try her hand at being a Gym Leader again (and proving her worth), or b. introduce a cousin of Misty's who would actually be a valuable asset to gym-leading, it's going to be very difficult to have her return to journeying and actually growing stronger. She didn't even want the job, nor does she actually like it, due to certain things she's said and done.

@Scott: Hey, don't forget, Scott! Brock's mom was gone unmentioned between 169-447 episodes (being an offscreen character as she was first mentioned in "Showdown at Pewter City", and in the Dubbed version, was believed to be Dead.), and it wasn't until Grating Spaces that she became a supporting character (as evidenced by the fact that they included Lola with Delia and Johanna in the Giratina Family.).

I mean, if the writers could make someone who had NOT been seen at all or hasn't been mentioned since several hundred episodes ago [around the same time a main protagonist joined up] appear under the same character profiles as Professor Oak, Delia, Johanna, Flint, Brock's Siblings, and others, they can CERTAINLY find a way to bring back Misty even AFTER all of these years and with barely any references.

EDIT:

I'd like to add that Fantina is capable of leaving her gym unattended because of two reasons:

1. She started to journey in the first place to further her carrier as gym leader. She was traveling to develop a battle style she could use at the gym. Misty only left her gym a few times that were unrelated to furthering her status as gym leader.

You know, The PIA probably won't see that as a good excuse, seeing how they have that little "Zero tolerance" policy (And implied that no gym leader, not even one needing to do it just to further her goals as a GL or has a reputation of being a good Gym Leader, is allowed to leave the Gym unattended (something that, due to the closed sign with a note, Fantina DID indeed do).

2. There's also the reputation of the gym: Fantina's gym is supposed to be one of the nicest gyms in Sinnoh, and one of the main Pokémon-centric fixtures in Hearthome, which is made out to be a very fancy well-to-do city. It's supposed to have a reputation for being an excellent gym.

Yeah, an excellent gym that never fails to disappoint several people when the Gym Leader's gone and the Gym's closed without a temp. for OVER A FEW MONTHS!!!

Besides, from what Brock and some others have said, Pewter Gym was no different than Fantina's Gym, and the last time I checked, that rep. got tarnished for good as soon as Lola entered the picture (Oh, and before you mention that they probably didn't shut it down because they don't care if it's graffitied or anything like that as long as the Gym Leader is still there or at least has a suitable replacement, that's not even close to true. The PIA inspector in "Cerulean Blues" ALSO mentioned that, because of the Zero tolerance policy, even IF the Gym Leader is around, if the Gym in question is Unsafe, Unclean, or Uncool, they will still shut down the Gym [and, BTW, Pewter Gym in both "A Family that Battle's together, Stay's Together" AND "Grating spaces" has met at least TWO of these qualities.].)

Cerulean's gym on the other hand was in complete shambles when it was under the care of Misty's sisters. They gave badges away for minor things such as cleaning the gym or doing errends. Which is not only against league rules, but it doesn't test out the challenging trainer's Pokémon, which is what gyms are supposed to do in the first place. It probably wasn't seen as nothing more then an ordinary aquarium/public pool/arena. Misty wants to restore the gym's reputation, which is probably more important then journeying on the road with friends.

Yeah, and restoring Pewter Gym's rep. is supposed to be far more important than journeying with Ash, and the last time I checked, Brock isn't even picking up the signs that only he can manage it properly.

Also, Pewter Gym was in complete shambles when Lola took over (and if "Grating Spaces" means anything, not only has it still not recovered from it, but it's also getting far worse than it originally was.), Heck, the Gym Leader, Forrest, didn't even try to stop his mom from letting TR do the vandalization. Heck, Lola, Flint, and Forrest (ESPECIALLY Lola) are no different than what Lily, Violet, and Daisy were. did Brock even try and follow Misty's example, and quit his own dreams just to take care of the Gym for the rest of his (BEEP)in life to restore the reputation of Pewter Gym?! No, HE DIDN'T!!

 

[ShinyAeon]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

...and Bulbagarden's back. Hooray!

Well, let's see, her reaction in GCYL was a bit obvious

Yes...obvious she resented being jerked away from her friends with no warning, no time to prepare, and not even the illusion of having a choice about it.

she still felt some resentment towards doing the Job in Cerulean Blues,

Resentment at the way it was done does not mean she hates doing it.

I think you'll find that not being given a choice pisses people off, even if what you're forcing them to do is something they actually like doing. You really can't tell by that.

she once mentioned "Why do I feel like Cinderella?" in regards to one of the Gym Duties (Usually, someone who mentions feeling like Cinderella, if you've ever read the story, would imply that they hate their job.)

If I've ever read the story? Golly, it's one of the most widely known, pervasive, and universally popular fairy tales in the entire world. It's been the basis for countless movies, television episodes, musicals, plays, ballets, fantasy novels, fan stories, and books on popular psychology.

Why would I have ever read something like that?

Now, having looked up the plot of this obscure little folk tale online, let me look for parallels...Cinderella has two stepsisters who get to run around, going to balls and parties, while she has to stay at home and do all the chores. And Misty's three sisters are off on a world tour, running around going on tours and day trips, and Misty is trapped at home doing all the chores that the three of them used to share all by her lonesome.

I mean, her sisters didn't even bother to make sure she had a supply of gym badges to start with, instead leaving her a chore she has to close up the gym for a few days to accomplish. And they didn't even tell her this, instead leading her to find out when the first challenger shows up.

(To the sisters' credit, I do think they honestly forgot they were out of badges in their excitement to go on their tour.)

There is no requirement that a person hate what they're doing to "feel like Cinderella." But having sisters off whooping it up while you're working is bound to annoy a person.

, the only time she EVER felt happy in that "Blue Badge of Courage" episode was when Sakura came over, and that's only because they were good friends.

Yeah, she looked so miserable feeding her Pokemon like that. You'd almost think she hated her Horsea and Goldeen, the way she took no pleasure in interacting with them or seeing them fed. And she's never acted like she enjoys battling or anything ever, it must be hell for her to have to do that all the time.

There's also the fact that she skipped out of the Gym to visit friends and a Togepi festival (a fake one that is, but still), visit Ash, and testing a Battling System. How is that any different than, oh, I dunno, her sisters going on a cruise around the world?

Let's look at it...Togepi festival=a long weekend. Testing a Battling system = a day, perhaps an overnight stay because of distances. Cruise around the world (according to what pops up on Google) = 100-120 days...three or four months.

Nope, not much difference there.

However, someone who truly likes their job would NOT leave the Gym and skip out for trivial things. For example, she could just deny the invitation to the Togepi Festival, she could deny the invitation to the testing of a new battle system, she could even foresake her old friends just to keep her job. Heck, how many times has Ash visited any old friends in regards to something or to say hi? (He certainly didn't visit Misty.)

Yeah, an all-expenses paid festival devoted to the Pokemon she's raised from hatching and which occupies a special place in her heart...pffft, that's nothing important. And a chance to try her battling skills against some new and therefore unexpected system, THAT would certainly be of no use to someone who battles for a living. And visiting your closest friends in the world upon their return to the region, what a pointless thing to waste time on, when she ought to be fulfilling her duties.

What a deadbeat Misty is. Next thing you know, she'll want a half day off for Christmas or something.

Wow, three times away from the job in a whole arc, how irresponsible of her...maybe her sisters should just shackle her to diving board to stop all that footloose galivantin' o'hers...

Hey, thanks for repeating my words back to me without the "quote" things around them, making it look like something YOU said. I'm so glad my opinions are so spot-on that you want to claim them as your own!

(You did know that one was meant as broad sarcasm, didn't you? Hmmmm....looking at your next argument, I see you didn't.)

Quote=ShinyAeon: (You're one of those people who think taking sick days and paid vacation is stealing from the company, aren't you?)

Actually, I think Sick days are the only exception to the rules in regards to things. Besides, getting Sick [and by that, I mean ACTUALLY getting Sick, not putting a magnifying glass on the thermometer) and skipping out are two different things.

Thanks for being so honest about your thoughtless disregard for human health, welfare, and happiness. I mean, someone who actually comes out and ADMITS that he thinks sweatshops and slave owners are the only ones who don't coddle their workers shamelessly is a really rare beast. I salute your courage in coming forward like this.

Paige Fox from "FoxTrot" cares more about hanging out with her friends than going to school (In fact, some dialogue, especially near the beginning and end of school implies that she and her friends HATE school.)

And that has to do with...what, exactly?

Oh, wait...that's right...Paige is a girl. And...Misty is also a girl.

Gosh, I forgot all girls feel and act exactly the same! [slaps forehead] How stupid of me to forget! I'm so sorry!

Well, I'm only a female myself, what do you expect? [blink. blink.]

You're right, she is responsible for keeping the Gym. But she's not responsible enough.

....yeah.

Just out of curiousity, let me ask: how much have YOU ever been responsible for? I mean, on a 24-7 basis, for months at a time (as you seem to imply that anything less is "irresponsibility").

~~~

To pokemon fan 132: I appreciate your comment, and I'm glad you see that the situation at Cerulean is complex and not easily pigeonholed. I still think Misty's reactions show resentment of her sisters pushing responsibility off on her (like for cleaning the pool for THEIR photo shoot - or for whatever reason the original episode gave – and not wanting to cover for her so she can see her best friends for the first time in however long), NOT of her dislike of being Gym Leader and the normal duties involved.


~~~

I'd like to add that Fantina is capable of leaving her gym unattended because of two reasons:

1. She started to journey in the first place to further her carrier as gym leader. She was traveling to develop a battle style she could use at the gym. Misty only left her gym a few times that were unrelated to furthering her status as gym leader.

See above. At least one task WAS useful to her battling. Another was useful to her knowledge of Pokemon.

2. There's also the reputation of the gym: Fantina's gym is...supposed to have a reputation for being an excellent gym...Cerulean's gym on the other hand was in complete shambles when it was under the care of Misty's sisters. They gave badges away for minor things such as cleaning the gym or doing errends...Misty wants to restore the gym's reputation...

That is complete fanon. I know Bulbapedia says they neglected the gym to do their water shows, but really, all we know is that they were discouraged from battling in their first episide...they tried to give away a badge to Ash because they'd just been flattened by Gary and the Unknown Pallet Trainers, and were feeling beat-up. We know that they threatened to give away badges in the Mt. Moon episode (but we don't know if they meant it, or if they just said it to get Misty back faster so they wouldn't have to battle).

As for the PIA, despite the scare tactics of the commercial Misty saw, the real Agent, Joy, was understanding, helpful, and sympathetic to Misty's position and the fact that she got thrown into the position suddenly. The problem was not neglect, or a bad reputation, it was that Gyarados had started freaking out under the care of the four guys from the sisters' fan club (and from this we see that the Sensational Sisters were responsible enough to get someone to watch the gym till Misty got there, they just didn't figure on Gyarados acting up in their absence).

 

[PDL]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

See above. At least one task WAS useful to her battling. Another was useful to her knowledge of Pokemon.

Care to elaborate on how Misty's "gym leaves" helped her with how to raise water Pokémon? We all know the Togepi arc was only created to tie up a loose end involving Togepi.

That is complete fanon. I know Bulbapedia says they neglected the gym to do their water shows, but really, all we know is that they were discouraged from battling in their first episide...they tried to give away a badge to Ash because they'd just been flattened by Gary and the Unknown Pallet Trainers, and were feeling beat-up. We know that they threatened to give away badges in the Mt. Moon episode (but we don't know if they meant it, or if they just said it to get Misty back faster so they wouldn't have to battle).

As for the PIA, despite the scare tactics of the commercial Misty saw, the real Agent, Joy, was understanding, helpful, and sympathetic to Misty's position and the fact that she got thrown into the position suddenly. The problem was not neglect, or a bad reputation, it was that Gyarados had started freaking out under the care of the four guys from the sisters' fan club (and from this we see that the Sensational Sisters were responsible enough to get someone to watch the gym till Misty got there, they just didn't figure on Gyarados acting up in their absence).

Wait, how on earth are my arguements "fanon"?

Also, since it's been well established that Misty's sisters are complete shit at battling, putting them in charge of an offical league-sanctioned Pokémon gym is not the best idea isn't it? Also, There was a Hoenn filler with Ash and friends where they meet a filler character who did visit the cerulean gym... only to get a badge from cleaning the pool.

Giving away league-sanctioned badges, proof of a Pokémon and Trainer's skill in battle, in the same way one gives out candy on Halloween is not a good way to run a gym. Hence why Misty was left with none when she first started.

Also, it really isn't like Misty is Cinderella, she is learning how to train and take care of water types specifically, something she really can't do cheering Ash on from sidelines. She isn't doing something she completely hates.

This brings us back to the main reason why characters leave in the first place. Their reasons for "leaving the show" are career-related.

1. Tracey wants to work with Professor Oak as his aide, he's doing that and he loves it.

2. May's off traveling on her own, developing her own style for Pokémon contests.

3. Max is learning lots at his father's gym, and is probably still preparing for becoming a trainer himself (although with the way characters age, this could take a while...)

4. I already mentioned how being a gym leader furthers her goal of being a "Water Pokémon Master", I mean, look at Wallace.

If other companions go off on their own journeys, they're most likely going to be related to Pokémon.

I still stand by my theory that if Brock were to leave, it would have nothing to do with romance at all, but his goal of being a breeder (setting up a school on how to take care of Pokémon would be a good way to conclude Brock's journey)

As for Dawn, I'm not entirely sure how to do it without being a carbon copy of May's reason to leave. Perhaps she actually wins a grand festival and manages to become a top coordinator and get her face on stuff (in the same way Marina's face appears on things sometimes).

 

[Cybersai]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

As for Dawn, I'm not entirely sure how to do it without being a carbon copy of May's reason to leave. Perhaps she actually wins a grand festival and manages to become a top coordinator and get her face on stuff (in the same way Marina's face appears on things sometimes).

Perhaps Dawn will travel to the same region May goes to so they can be regular rivals? They seemed to really get along well, it would be neat if they became good friends in the future.

 

[ShinyAeon]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Care to elaborate on how Misty's "gym leaves" helped her with how to raise water Pokémon? We all know the Togepi arc was only created to tie up a loose end involving Togepi.

Gym leaders specialize in types, sure, but they have to face all types from challengers. Besides, Togepi is a baby Pokemon, and Misty is likely to raise other baby Pokemon during her career as Gym Leader, so learning more about a baby species counts as "professional education."

Only the trip to see Ash come home counts as completely unrelated to the gym.

Wait, how on earth are my arguements "fanon"?

Because they're based on things not actually seen in cannon.

Also, since it's been well established that Misty's sisters are complete shit at battling,

No, it's been widely assumed that Misty's sisters are shit at battling. We saw Daisy battle with her Lovedisc (with Misty and hers) in the Chronicles episode, and she didn't seem too bad to me. Other than that, all we know is that all their Pokemon were in the Pokemon Center in their first episode (except for Seel, who they thought was not strong enough), so they couldn't battle.

Have we ever seen them battle, apart from Daisy and Loverin? Anybody know...?

Also, There was a Hoenn filler with Ash and friends where they meet a filler character who did visit the cerulean gym... only to get a badge from cleaning the pool.

I thought I remembered something like that, but couldn't find it in the Cerulean episodes...

Giving out badges for tasks still says nothing about how well they battle (though it could say something about how much they enjoy battling, or more specifically, don't).

Giving away league-sanctioned badges, proof of a Pokémon and Trainer's skill in battle, in the same way one gives out candy on Halloween is not a good way to run a gym.

Granted. But while assuming they give out badges regularly is not unreasonable, it's still speculation...all we know is they offered one to Ash, gave one to someone else for a chore, and threatened to give them out on the phone with Misty. It's also possible that what we saw is the full extent of their badge-giving activity.

The fact that they got discouraged and stopped battling because they were trounced three times in a row by rookie trainers from "some nowhere place called Pallet Town" implies that their record before that was much better.

Hence why Misty was left with none when she first started.

No, that does not follow as "hence." That's a good theory as to why, but no one in the anime (that I know of, forgive me if the original Japanese version is different) says that flat-out.

That they left her with no badges is cannon. The REASON they left her with no badges is not stated.

"Cannon" is what we see in the show, period. "Fanon" is the vast array of ideas that some fan extrapolates FROM cannon, and which then gain popularity in the fandom, until people start talking about them as if they were cannon...but they aren't.

Also, it really isn't like Misty is Cinderella, she is learning how to train and take care of water types specifically, something she really can't do cheering Ash on from sidelines. She isn't doing something she completely hates.

We're on the same side on this issue. ;-)

 

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

And WHEN did i said how gym leaders are weak?

In both of these examples:

Lol,yes because gym leaders are such a "strong trainers".

There is a reason why gym leaders arent highly leveled trainers.

You completely and utterly implied that they were weak in the grand perspective of things. First by mocking the idea that they were such great trainers, and then by claiming that they weren't highly leveled.

Now look, enough of this, because there are so many points going on, you can't even seem to trace a point back to the source argument. So right now I'm going to address a few things you said, and show you why your logic makes absolutely no sense. In the process, you'll see exactly how those quotes tie in.

On one hand, you argue that gym leaders are simply lower tier trainers who simply fulfill their goals as tests, to which you claim "pretty much explains the reason why they sometimes lose to rookies aswell."

On the other hand, you argue that they don't get too many strong challenges, and that's why Misty wouldn't get much experience from them. You even cited an example from Blaine, who claimed that he took down his official gym because too many weak sauce trainers challenged him.

So hold on a second, if gym leaders were as low leveled as you first suggested (which is shown above), then how are the challenges they get not enough for them?

If gym leaders "sometimes lose to rookies" like you claim, then what business do they have traveling anyway? If they can't beat rookies, how exactly would they perform in the Indigo Plateau?

If these Gym Leaders "sometimes lose to rookies", then doesn't that mean they can get challenges out of these people? I mean obviously they lose - so how do Gym Leaders not get tested? If a trainer's strong enough to beat you, rookie or not, then how are they not a test for you?

And if they're so weak, then how exactly is it so great that a trainer travels around and beats them? What exactly does it prove to beat a chump? And what does that make of the trainers who beat them and make it to the Plateau?

Ignore everything else, and answer these questions for me. In the process of trying to argue on two fronts, you've completely contradicted yourself with your logic.

You claim that gym leaders aren't highly leveled, and point out how they lose to rookies. Yet at the same time, you argue that Misty's not receiving enough of a challenge from trainers who come to battle her. In fact, you even claimed that Sakura "isn't exactly in category of highly skilled trainer", but Misty lost to her didn't she? So how is she not being challenged? Then what does that mean when Misty comes across a trainer like Harrison, who has shown that he's strong? And if these trainers aren't "highly skilled" and beating them, then what does that suggest about the trainer's merit by beating GLs?

Answer these. I've completely broken down to you the flaws in your arguments, the contradictions you've made, and the illogical conclusions that some of your suggestions would reach.

And if you can't grasp how these intersect, then I think I realized why we're even carrying on this argument.

 

[PDL]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Okay, so Misty's sisters aren't complete shit at battling, but they still aren't really strong enough competiters to be put in charge of an offical gym. A gym has to have at least some standards, and Misty is good enough to meet those standards, whereas her sisters aren't.

Also, it's spelt "canon", cannons are things that are used to defend castles and battleships.

 

[ShinyAeon]

Re: Do you like how the anime introduces new companions/rivals for Ash in each region

Okay, so Misty's sisters aren't complete shit at battling, but they still aren't really strong enough competiters to be put in charge of an offical gym. A gym has to have at least some standards, and Misty is good enough to meet those standards, whereas her sisters aren't.

We still don't even know if they're strong competitors or weak competitors...though the fact that their heart isn't in it implies that they're not that strong, of course. And it's a good bet that they're not very responsible about the position (I mean, maybe it was a REALLY dirty pool, but still...)

I just like to keep established fact separate from widely-held assumptions.

Also, it's spelt "canon", cannons are things that are used to defend castles and battleships.

Yeah, sorry about that...I get homonyms mixed up sometimes. I realized it later when my spellchecker objected to "cannonical."