Do you think Ash/Satoshi should be replaced?

[Raidou Kuzunoha XV]

Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.

I'm curious on why you think Ash's existence "ruins a finely-made fictional work". What about Ash ruins it? What works in spite of the character? I find this to be a rather bold statement -as much as I enjoy the anime, this isn't a masterpiece of writing, and of all the flaws in it, saying that Ash ruins it seems rather extreme.

1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?

Ash is still the most recognizable human in the anime - there's always a difference between replacing the protagonist vs replacing the companions. The concept of the anime is the journey, and Ash is the POV character. He sees new things, meets new people. Replacing the POV character with another adds little to no benefit, since we're suddenly supposed to see things from another perspective from a character whose history we're not familiar with.

2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.

Somewhat agreed here. A better approach might have been to have the protagonist develop greatly within a single saga from the very start, then put in the next protagonist like the Adventures manga does. But since the anime has stuck with Ash and his resets for so long, changing routes so suddenly is too risky without alot of proper marketing and writing ahead of time.

The better solution is simply to provide proper development and continuity for Ash going forward. AG and DP were on the right track for several reasons, even if not perfect. BW really set things backwards.

3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.

This argument really misses the point. Ash's main issue as a character is the lack of growth - the argument here is that if another character can be written in with more personality, why not just develop Ash's? If Ash can't develop further, why should the new protagonist develop?

The issue isn't Ash the character. The issue is whether the writing will allow the protagonist - Ash or no - to develop.

4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.

Sounds nice, but none of the ideas are exclusive with keeping Ash the main character. He, too, can try different things (like contests, which he has), or involve himself in an arc dealing with one of the villainous teams (like the N arc).

5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.

First of all, no, not all of us expect a "dramatic story" when watching a show. My friends who enjoy Spongebob is certainly proof enough. The anime doesn't have to be some kind of epic drama to succeed.

And as an aside, Ash's character has certainly proven competent, unless you believe being the only trainer to defeat two of Tobias' pokemon in Sinnoh to be a lousy accomplishment. I will agree however, that his (and Pikachu's) competence is way too much at the mercy of plot hax, both for and against.

6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.

This part I agree with, but it's not an argument for replacing Ash. It's certainly an argument to improve the writing and sense of continuity that long-time viewers would like, though.

7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?

When did Ash stop wanting to be a Pokemon Master?

8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?

Anime =/= Game. Misty and Brock didn't travel around with Red. Red couldn't choose a Pikachu (in the original versions). In fact, Red didn't speak. Artistic deviations from the game are certainly expected, and letting Ash continue his journeys to other regions are hardly a crime.

9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.

Well, as a Satoshi fan myself, I would say replacing him without giving him a proper conclusion would be an insult. Replacing him in and of itself isn't insulting.

The argument, for me at least, is that replacing him without proper development of conclusion is pointless - that's not a sign of better writing, it's a sign of poor direction and misguided attempts at improvement. After all, if they can't properly write for a long-time protagonist, that simply doesn't bode well for a new one.

10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.

Then how will a new human protagonist help? Again, we could put in a new human protagonist, but that's not a reason for instead opting to improve the currently existing one.

11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.

Actually, sticking with old, recognizable faces in a large franchise has proven extremely fruitful.

Also, if Ash isn't a big pull because it's about the Pokemon, then why should the new hero be?

Of course, the Pokemon anime has more story writing problem than Ash only, and such problems will not be gone by just simply replacing him. The scriptwriters should work not only in developing Ash's characteristics, but also in putting more efforts in writing a more plausible and less childish plot.
Let see how the next XY saga goes in terms of story development. If Ash doesn't receive a good plausible ending in the end of XY saga, then probably his story will never end, and we as the pro-replacing-Ash group can certainly be dead set on forever disappointment and despair on Pokemon anime.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that with your basic point here. We all want a better scripted, more cohesive anime. By and large, though, I don't see replacing the current protagonist as beneficial in any way that simply improving Ash (and the writing in general) can't be.

 

[Almonds]

Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.

I'm curious on why you think Ash's existence "ruins a finely-made fictional work". What about Ash ruins it? What works in spite of the character? I find this to be a rather bold statement -as much as I enjoy the anime, this isn't a masterpiece of writing, and of all the flaws in it, saying that Ash ruins it seems rather extreme.

1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?

Ash is still the most recognizable human in the anime - there's always a difference between replacing the protagonist vs replacing the companions. The concept of the anime is the journey, and Ash is the POV character. He sees new things, meets new people. Replacing the POV character with another adds little to no benefit, since we're suddenly supposed to see things from another perspective from a character whose history we're not familiar with.

2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.

Somewhat agreed here. A better approach might have been to have the protagonist develop greatly within a single saga from the very start, then put in the next protagonist like the Adventures manga does. But since the anime has stuck with Ash and his resets for so long, changing routes so suddenly is too risky without alot of proper marketing and writing ahead of time.

The better solution is simply to provide proper development and continuity for Ash going forward. AG and DP were on the right track for several reasons, even if not perfect. BW really set things backwards.

3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.

This argument really misses the point. Ash's main issue as a character is the lack of growth - the argument here is that if another character can be written in with more personality, why not just develop Ash's? If Ash can't develop further, why should the new protagonist develop?

The issue isn't Ash the character. The issue is whether the writing will allow the protagonist - Ash or no - to develop.

4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.

Sounds nice, but none of the ideas are exclusive with keeping Ash the main character. He, too, can try different things (like contests, which he has), or involve himself in an arc dealing with one of the villainous teams (like the N arc).

5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.

First of all, no, not all of us expect a "dramatic story" when watching a show. My friends who enjoy Spongebob is certainly proof enough. The anime doesn't have to be some kind of epic drama to succeed.

And as an aside, Ash's character has certainly proven competent, unless you believe being the only trainer to defeat two of Tobias' pokemon in Sinnoh to be a lousy accomplishment. I will agree however, that his (and Pikachu's) competence is way too much at the mercy of plot hax, both for and against.

6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.

This part I agree with, but it's not an argument for replacing Ash. It's certainly an argument to improve the writing and sense of continuity that long-time viewers would like, though.

7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?

When did Ash stop wanting to be a Pokemon Master?

8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?

Anime =/= Game. Misty and Brock didn't travel around with Red. Red couldn't choose a Pikachu (in the original versions). In fact, Red didn't speak. Artistic deviations from the game are certainly expected, and letting Ash continue his journeys to other regions are hardly a crime.

9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.

Well, as a Satoshi fan myself, I would say replacing him without giving him a proper conclusion would be an insult. Replacing him in and of itself isn't insulting.

The argument, for me at least, is that replacing him without proper development of conclusion is pointless - that's not a sign of better writing, it's a sign of poor direction and misguided attempts at improvement. After all, if they can't properly write for a long-time protagonist, that simply doesn't bode well for a new one.

10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.

Then how will a new human protagonist help? Again, we could put in a new human protagonist, but that's not a reason for instead opting to improve the currently existing one.

11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.

Actually, sticking with old, recognizable faces in a large franchise has proven extremely fruitful.

Also, if Ash isn't a big pull because it's about the Pokemon, then why should the new hero be?

Of course, the Pokemon anime has more story writing problem than Ash only, and such problems will not be gone by just simply replacing him. The scriptwriters should work not only in developing Ash's characteristics, but also in putting more efforts in writing a more plausible and less childish plot.
Let see how the next XY saga goes in terms of story development. If Ash doesn't receive a good plausible ending in the end of XY saga, then probably his story will never end, and we as the pro-replacing-Ash group can certainly be dead set on forever disappointment and despair on Pokemon anime.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that with your basic point here. We all want a better scripted, more cohesive anime. By and large, though, I don't see replacing the current protagonist as beneficial in any way that simply improving Ash (and the writing in general) can't be.

Because that's exactly the problem: they aren't improving Ash OR the writing in general. How did a boy who KO'd two legendaries in the Sinnoh League crashed down horribly to lose to a noob who brought five pokemons to a 6-on-6 battle? I don't call THAT improvement.

 

[CrystaI]

@Raidou Kuzunoha XV
How interesting, that your reasons and viewpoints matches exactly to the ones I listed for the anti-replacing-Ash group right in the beginning of that post. They are mostly personal taste preference from the Ash fans, where they can tolerates bad scriptwritings, but cannot tolerate replacement of Ash no matter what.

I don't even feel like replying much to your argument, because my post also already gives the views and logics used most often by the anti-replacing-Ash group for their debates. There may be other reasons as well, and you may disapprove my points of view. But if you wanted to argue me back, first try to use some reason that is not listed in my previous post.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

You said it yourself - while Naruto, Goku, and Luffy are indeed mascots of the show, they were showing progress and development throughout the entire anime. Unlike Ash, they trained themselves a lot that when you look at the first episode and 500+ episodes later, there is a clear development. They even aged. We can see how the protagonist 'grows up' after a long adventure and many harsh battles - we find ourselves growing up with them, and while they may have tough times, have any of them regressed? Have any of them been completely became a noob? Like, Naruto suddenly doesn't know how to throw shurikens? Luffy doesn't know how to even rubber-punch? Ash has been reset each time he went to a new region (except Johto), and in Unova he doesn't even know the basics of capturing a pokemon.

Other anime where the character doesn't grow up aren't comparable - I've said this many times. Doraemon, Maruko, and Shin-chan are mere slice-of-life animes where the story revolves around the characters' everyday life. They don't go on an adventure. They don't do anything. They just stay in the same town undergoing the same comedy every single episode. Pretty much like The Simpsons, if you ask me. The exception to this would be Detective Conan - but he's been a smart kid from the start. And whatever knowledge he acquires from the many cases he solves - he doesn't forget. He doesn't age, but he's getting smarter and the knowledge he accumulated in his brains up till the recent episodes is a frightening amount. What about Ash? Wasn't there someone who lost to a kid who doesn't even know the rules of the Unova League?

Replace Ash, or just friggin develop him up. We want development and progress, not a stupid noob who gets regressed and reset. Think playing safe is a good idea? When they're showing absolutely no signs of improving the show, I doubt playing it safe is even 'safe' anymore.

To be fair Ash getting demoted in BW was possibly just one time thing, happening mainly because of reset in Bw games getting rid of previous pokemon, contests and connections to past regions treating it like "fresh start". As result writers wanted to mirror those changes through anime in best possible way which reflected unfortunately on Ash growth too.

Something which didn't worked out that well judging by decline in ratings and lack of viewer interest with references to past, return of older pokemon like Charizard etc being step toward recovery and restore of experience Ash had before.

As such writers will have to change their outlook on things and look for new ways to keep people interested, and judging by mostly negative reception established about this series and character development if this shows to not work, they might very well get Ash characterization back on right tracks changing their approach with way his story is handled. Making me belikeve how same thing wont happen in X,Y saga.

If anime comes to an end, i would rather have it that they finish it with character with who started everything (Ash)treating this series as one big continuity, not making any new alternate series after this. Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually.

Better idea imo would be if pokemon tried out cast rotation.That way we would still get new characters, while at same time people being able to see their favorites from past(like Dawn, Misty, Brock, May etc) again in action and updated.
To have pokemon do justice with its protagonists and Ash character treating this series as one big continuity making them conclude with those which hooked us into pokemon world in first place providong end to great adventure we followed over the years , not making any new alternate series after this.

Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually because quite frankly i cannot see this anime continuing forever.

Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.

People don't seem to understand how most Ash fans want more substantial growth and some direction in which Ash character will progress as well, but at same time we realize how replacing him for another character won't change anything.

Issue in this show aren't characters nor they are standing in way of anime advancing and becoming more creatively written, but writers themselves. So unless they put their heads together starting to put more effort in their creation telling more attractive story no matter who comes in this show things will remain same.

1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?

That's very bold statement to make without taking in account impact and popularity Ash long existence left on pokemon series for past decade and half.

Main difference between traveling companions and Ash is that he is driving force of pokemon series with whole story revolving around his journey.
Pokemon anime is about following Ash journey of becoming pokemon master and promoting new pokemon with show being centralized around it.
Everyone else are expendable with people being used to traveling companions getting replaced accepting it(aside from few exceptions). And even than exampšles of Misty departure at end of Johto leaving negative effect on series popularity at that time which was much less popular and recognizable should serve as lesson to people how cast changes aren't always accepted among viewers.

Trying to use examples of Brock, Misty, May, Dawn etc to support "Ash leaving"is like comparing apples to oranges.

Unlike them Ash is actually main star which is representing pokemon series with whole story revolving around it being most popular, iconic and recognized character worldwide. He and Pikachu at this point became integrated within pokemon with people getting used to them so much(many even attached) that pokemon series are associated with this two being their icons.

2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.

To see what? Watching new protagonists being added to anime endlessly failing at accomplishing or coming close toward their dreams, acting like typical shonen hero and carrying around Pikachu (he is pokemon mascot) would be much more worse and incredibly stale in my opinion compared to whats happening now.

Not to mention with Ash there exist background and predisposition to grow forward as trainer going through more substantial growth. Which can happen in future depending on writers inducement and state in which series are set in. Resetting him and failing short at winning league can't continue forever and as disappointment and drop on ratings continues sooner or later current formula is prone to being changed. This can't work for new generations endlessly either with such recipe anime currently follows compound of predictable, overused storyline, little to none continuity and unstable cast not being especially thrilling and engaging to maintain their interest for many more years to come in future.

3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.

New protagonist will still have Pikachu as main partner since he is symbol of whole franchise. New guy will still follow game quest consisted of collecting badges and entering league. As well have similar characterization to Ash's because naive, brash and clueless guys who is bound to do "right thing" is writers way to appeal to new kids making it easier for them to associate with such type of character. Exact similar traits we can found in protagonists of other animated shows like DBZ, One Piece, Yugioh, Digimon etc.

So in that case is rises up question, whats left that it will make new protagonist "so much better " than current one?
Ash is "stale"?
Well if we follow line of thought how with new protagonist anime would be more creatively written than there is no reason why increase in quality couldn't be transferred to current protagonist too through new pokemon, clothes, new subplots being introduced within story etc. Its not like older character cant bring new and unexpected twists to story too, being another reason why i dont see any point in having Ash replaced.

I would rather prefer that pokemon stays like DBZ was or Naruto,One Piece etc for example are.
Same show with same timeline,continuity and older characters actually having chance to be seen again. Quite frankly i would rather have that pokemon series end when time comes with character who started everything and his traveling companions being treated as one big continuity which introduced us to world of s pokemon giving us insight in their adventures.
I want to remember pokemon as something which played part in my childhood having good memories of it instead of everything being dropped by starting out new series with cheap attempt of replicating original show and Ash character ruining picture pokemon anime had and everything it stood for.

4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.

New protagonist wouldn't suddenly start being handled better winning leagues, going through complex growth or being deeper in characterization, even aging which many seem to expect. Leaving us with basically carbon clone passing through same things all over again learning basics, trying to win league carrying Pikachu clone with himself. Which would be rather pointless.
What difference will there be? Everything will be exactly the same except 13 years of development will go down the gutter.

Problem lies in writers, not protagonist needing first to confront directly problems by putting more effort in story and characters(like Ash), fix flaws did with them and create environment for more concrete growth building up on established plots instead of leaving things unfinished.

5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.

Lot of this is matter of opinion since it deals with character personality and personal interpretation of what is interesting and what isn't. So ill just address this:

All of things brought up which could restore series appeal and make it more attractive to follow could be done with Ash character as well. He still didn't won league, didn't challenged E4, champion etc not being even close to achievement of pokemon master dream. There are many things left unexplored about his past, such as father who could be introduced at some point being portrayed as master himself having father vs son showdown. Or his connection to Ho-oh being said how this pokemon shows himself only to special trainers out there.

Way i see it with Ash we could see already experienced trainer who has background behind himself going on bigger tasks reaching higher levels as trainer which means stable and stronger pokemon, deeper development, better battles, opportunity to dive more into someone history etc.
At least with him there exists requirements to take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth.

Something you cannot do with someone who is just starting out having to go through basics all over again.

6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.

While he may have not won league until Unova Ash was with each consecutive saga getting better developing new tactics and strategies, putting more effort in training his pokemon and adapting to different battle styles he encountered gradually improving with each passing saga as trainer and person becoming more mature and focused.
It wasn't until BW and games revamp when he was regressed in persona and skill department to better go in correlation with message of "fresh start" games send out there.

7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?

Ash still has his dream of becoming pokemon master stating it on numerous occasions. In fact in DP Lucian himself said how winning champion league is one of steps someone needs to conquer on road of becoming master, but its not only one. So we don't know what other challenges and complex tasks(like Battle Frontier was for example) Ash would need to accomplish before he becomes recognized as strongest trainer in world.

8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?

True, but there should exist balance and difference between two medias allowing them to be individual in their own ways. When you exaggerate with inclusion of game elements, show lose on its unpredictability and originality with people not having something to look forward too being kept in suspense already knowing what characters and features they can expect if game pattern is followed strictly.

Its easier and more efficient for writers to write for some show consistently by involving a character they are familiar with, who already has background and guidelines established in past through which they could do follow up and continue than somebody new who might start out with a lot of instructions and problems.
With stable protagonist you can form brand about some show, iconic mascot through which new generations could have easier time in associating anime with, assure stable income of new customers and spread over series popularity through word of mouth to other people, which eventually generates bigger number of viewers and as final result more money.

If this show replaced protagonists like Yugioh or Digimon does it wouldn't generate so much popularity in first place. Same applies to Dragon ball and similar anime which have permanent star in some show.

9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Degradation and lack of consistent development is bad, but its not any better to replace character either at this point deserving better than leaving cast without being used to full potential not getting proper closure. Like other traveling companions like Misty, Max, May etc which left before their time was up.

10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.

In order to have successful and healthy franchise you need foundations on which you can develop long lasting impact on audience, achieve devotedness among viewers and stable ratings long term wise which can only be accomplished through stable character which develops over pong period of time. In who people will invest and become emotionally attached wanting to stay within show to see their favorites grow in new directions, utilize what they learned and grow forward developing devotedness to stay in franchise and show until series ends.

Which leads toward increase of popularity, series reputation and stable constant flux of money into some franchise.

By constantly replacing protagonists which represent pokemon franchise on their own would only bring contra effect with viewers becoming less attached and interested in following anime with repeated cycling taking away loyalty and eagerness in staying tune toward it. After two regions it would become basically too repetitive with nothing being left for fans to root for.

Problem other franchise which constantly do revamps and replace whole cast are experiencing having hard time in maintaining people interest not being anymore shadow of their former selves.

Not saying current formula pokemon utilizes is more positive solution either because shallow storyline, lack of continuity and static development of its characters and constant cast changing without finishing job they started with previous ones is eroding this show credibility and chance to be more successful.
But between alternative of getting rid of everything or keeping current character by putting more effort in storyline and development , second option would be much, much better in longer run.

11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.

Or it does matter? We often forget to take in account how pokemon audience isn't only compound of kids which start watching pokemon with new generation leaving it after certain saga ends. Many of today target audience are kids which started following this anime in previous generation and on long term scale to people Ash represents brand this show established about itself being viewed along with Pikachu as face of pokemon anime.

He is main source of profit which drives new generations toward this show with both older and younger fans affiliating pokemon series with him and yellow rodent. Its not, Iris, Dawn, Misty, May, Brock etc but Ash, and when you build iconic status around some character representing pokemon anime for 15 years, he becomes synonym for some anime.
If people seriously think how Ash leaving wont leave any negative effect on young generations not bringing risk of alienating audience, than i have to say they are making baseless presumptions without taking in account all factors, both positive and negative connotations such move would pull with itself and impact character long stay left on series, viewer perception and franchise as whole.

Speaking of older fans i met over the years most want innovations, courage from writers to change approach toward handling of characters and story. Such as having Ash advance forward as trainer without resets being made, investing more in already popular characters doing build up on existing traits and story(like several other shows do) instead of constantly replacing them like they are on assembly line to start all over again with new ones.

To treat anime as continuity based story with writers staying faithful to it, as well consistent with character development.
Which cannot be hope to be achieved if you discard everything sweeping current issues under the rug starting out with someone else on who those same issues will just translate, since that way you cannot clean up mess and learn on your mistakes.

 

[Almonds]

You said it yourself - while Naruto, Goku, and Luffy are indeed mascots of the show, they were showing progress and development throughout the entire anime. Unlike Ash, they trained themselves a lot that when you look at the first episode and 500+ episodes later, there is a clear development. They even aged. We can see how the protagonist 'grows up' after a long adventure and many harsh battles - we find ourselves growing up with them, and while they may have tough times, have any of them regressed? Have any of them been completely became a noob? Like, Naruto suddenly doesn't know how to throw shurikens? Luffy doesn't know how to even rubber-punch? Ash has been reset each time he went to a new region (except Johto), and in Unova he doesn't even know the basics of capturing a pokemon.

Other anime where the character doesn't grow up aren't comparable - I've said this many times. Doraemon, Maruko, and Shin-chan are mere slice-of-life animes where the story revolves around the characters' everyday life. They don't go on an adventure. They don't do anything. They just stay in the same town undergoing the same comedy every single episode. Pretty much like The Simpsons, if you ask me. The exception to this would be Detective Conan - but he's been a smart kid from the start. And whatever knowledge he acquires from the many cases he solves - he doesn't forget. He doesn't age, but he's getting smarter and the knowledge he accumulated in his brains up till the recent episodes is a frightening amount. What about Ash? Wasn't there someone who lost to a kid who doesn't even know the rules of the Unova League?

Replace Ash, or just friggin develop him up. We want development and progress, not a stupid noob who gets regressed and reset. Think playing safe is a good idea? When they're showing absolutely no signs of improving the show, I doubt playing it safe is even 'safe' anymore.

To be fair Ash getting demoted in BW was possibly just one time thing, happening mainly because of reset in Bw games getting rid of previous pokemon, contests and connections to past regions treating it like "fresh start". As result writers wanted to mirror those changes through anime in best possible way which reflected unfortunately on Ash growth too.

Something which didn't worked out that well judging by decline in ratings and lack of viewer interest with references to past, return of older pokemon like Charizard etc being step toward recovery and restore of experience Ash had before.

As such writers will have to change their outlook on things and look for new ways to keep people interested, and judging by mostly negative reception established about this series and character development if this shows to not work, they might very well get Ash characterization back on right tracks changing their approach with way his story is handled. Making me belikeve how same thing wont happen in X,Y saga.

If anime comes to an end, i would rather have it that they finish it with character with who started everything (Ash)treating this series as one big continuity, not making any new alternate series after this. Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually.

Better idea imo would be if pokemon tried out cast rotation.That way we would still get new characters, while at same time people being able to see their favorites from past(like Dawn, Misty, Brock, May etc) again in action and updated.
To have pokemon do justice with its protagonists and Ash character treating this series as one big continuity making them conclude with those which hooked us into pokemon world in first place providong end to great adventure we followed over the years , not making any new alternate series after this.

Pokemon had pretty good run so far, and everything must come to an end eventually because quite frankly i cannot see this anime continuing forever.

Most of people in the pro-replacing-Ash group look at the Pokemon anime as a fictional literary work, hence we heavily demand Ash to be replaced because his existence ruins an finely-made fictional work. We had our plausible arguments based on our basic knowledges of what makes good story writings, basic understanding of mentality of target audience market, and of course the 16 years history of Pokemon anime itself.

People don't seem to understand how most Ash fans want more substantial growth and some direction in which Ash character will progress as well, but at same time we realize how replacing him for another character won't change anything.

Issue in this show aren't characters nor they are standing in way of anime advancing and becoming more creatively written, but writers themselves. So unless they put their heads together starting to put more effort in their creation telling more attractive story no matter who comes in this show things will remain same.

1. He may be the main protagonist for Pokemon anime for 16 years, but he is not the mascot of Pokemon as a whole franchise, so replacing him shouldn't do harm to Pokemon as a whole. Besides, they had done character replacement with all the companions around him, why just not Ash himself?

That's very bold statement to make without taking in account impact and popularity Ash long existence left on pokemon series for past decade and half.

Main difference between traveling companions and Ash is that he is driving force of pokemon series with whole story revolving around his journey.
Pokemon anime is about following Ash journey of becoming pokemon master and promoting new pokemon with show being centralized around it.
Everyone else are expendable with people being used to traveling companions getting replaced accepting it(aside from few exceptions). And even than exampšles of Misty departure at end of Johto leaving negative effect on series popularity at that time which was much less popular and recognizable should serve as lesson to people how cast changes aren't always accepted among viewers.

Trying to use examples of Brock, Misty, May, Dawn etc to support "Ash leaving"is like comparing apples to oranges.

Unlike them Ash is actually main star which is representing pokemon series with whole story revolving around it being most popular, iconic and recognized character worldwide. He and Pikachu at this point became integrated within pokemon with people getting used to them so much(many even attached) that pokemon series are associated with this two being their icons.

2. He is regress and reset as he went to a new region, which is just impossible from character development viewpoint. Who on earth will continuously experience amnesia without his head getting damage? So make him grow! If don't make him grow, then replace him! In any case, if he is a newbie for every region, rather just make a real newcomer as protagonist for every region, where in such case is more plausible.

To see what? Watching new protagonists being added to anime endlessly failing at accomplishing or coming close toward their dreams, acting like typical shonen hero and carrying around Pikachu (he is pokemon mascot) would be much more worse and incredibly stale in my opinion compared to whats happening now.

Not to mention with Ash there exist background and predisposition to grow forward as trainer going through more substantial growth. Which can happen in future depending on writers inducement and state in which series are set in. Resetting him and failing short at winning league can't continue forever and as disappointment and drop on ratings continues sooner or later current formula is prone to being changed. This can't work for new generations endlessly either with such recipe anime currently follows compound of predictable, overused storyline, little to none continuity and unstable cast not being especially thrilling and engaging to maintain their interest for many more years to come in future.

3. Make another Pokemon anime protagonist =/= Make a carbon copy of Ash. Who said the new protagonist must be Ash ver.2? Must the new protagonist has the same idiotic mind and childish behaviour and naive personality as Ash? Can we not make the new protagonist having a different personality from Ash? Like this time having a clever cool-headed guy that knows how to battle strategically and creatively, or a pervert that is soft on cute ladies, or a short-tempered guy that likes to pick fight. Such characters will certainly be more interesting than current Ash Ketchum, which will consequently make the show more enjoyable.

New protagonist will still have Pikachu as main partner since he is symbol of whole franchise. New guy will still follow game quest consisted of collecting badges and entering league. As well have similar characterization to Ash's because naive, brash and clueless guys who is bound to do "right thing" is writers way to appeal to new kids making it easier for them to associate with such type of character. Exact similar traits we can found in protagonists of other animated shows like DBZ, One Piece, Yugioh, Digimon etc.

So in that case is rises up question, whats left that it will make new protagonist "so much better " than current one?
Ash is "stale"?
Well if we follow line of thought how with new protagonist anime would be more creatively written than there is no reason why increase in quality couldn't be transferred to current protagonist too through new pokemon, clothes, new subplots being introduced within story etc. Its not like older character cant bring new and unexpected twists to story too, being another reason why i dont see any point in having Ash replaced.

I would rather prefer that pokemon stays like DBZ was or Naruto,One Piece etc for example are.
Same show with same timeline,continuity and older characters actually having chance to be seen again. Quite frankly i would rather have that pokemon series end when time comes with character who started everything and his traveling companions being treated as one big continuity which introduced us to world of s pokemon giving us insight in their adventures.
I want to remember pokemon as something which played part in my childhood having good memories of it instead of everything being dropped by starting out new series with cheap attempt of replicating original show and Ash character ruining picture pokemon anime had and everything it stood for.

4. When we had a new protagonist, the story itself will then obviously be different. The new protagonist may still go to travel the region but not necessarily be reason of League challenge and Gym Badge quest. Even the new protagonist still follows Ash footstep of Badge quest, but this time we are looking at story of this newcomer but not Ash, his way of achieving this quest will be different from Ash, and his battle style may also differs from Ash, so everything is new despite his goal is the same.

New protagonist wouldn't suddenly start being handled better winning leagues, going through complex growth or being deeper in characterization, even aging which many seem to expect. Leaving us with basically carbon clone passing through same things all over again learning basics, trying to win league carrying Pikachu clone with himself. Which would be rather pointless.
What difference will there be? Everything will be exactly the same except 13 years of development will go down the gutter.

Problem lies in writers, not protagonist needing first to confront directly problems by putting more effort in story and characters(like Ash), fix flaws did with them and create environment for more concrete growth building up on established plots instead of leaving things unfinished.

5. Whenever we as an TV audience to watch a show, we like to see a dramatic story. And in order for story (especially adventure story) to be dramatic, show should focus on a competent person. Ash Ketchum, he is surely not competent as being a Pokemon Trainer. If the anime didn't focus on Ash but some other characters like Gary Oak, the anime might turn out to be more interesting. Ash Ketchum, now feels more like an ordinary sub-character that you can meet everywhere on the road. In short: Flat and not outstanding.

Lot of this is matter of opinion since it deals with character personality and personal interpretation of what is interesting and what isn't. So ill just address this:

All of things brought up which could restore series appeal and make it more attractive to follow could be done with Ash character as well. He still didn't won league, didn't challenged E4, champion etc not being even close to achievement of pokemon master dream. There are many things left unexplored about his past, such as father who could be introduced at some point being portrayed as master himself having father vs son showdown. Or his connection to Ho-oh being said how this pokemon shows himself only to special trainers out there.

Way i see it with Ash we could see already experienced trainer who has background behind himself going on bigger tasks reaching higher levels as trainer which means stable and stronger pokemon, deeper development, better battles, opportunity to dive more into someone history etc.
At least with him there exists requirements to take established character to new, unexpected directions having more complex growth.

Something you cannot do with someone who is just starting out having to go through basics all over again.

6. Pokemon anime was originally an adventure story with continuity, so by reseting Ash was already a breaking of that continuity. Why Ash is still 10 after he had traveled 5 regions? Why the hell he forgot how to catch Pokemon? You remember your old friend Charizard that was evolved back in Kanto, and left in Johto, but you don't remember all the battle strategies you had ever used back in those regions? Your memory disorder is more severe than just incurable.

While he may have not won league until Unova Ash was with each consecutive saga getting better developing new tactics and strategies, putting more effort in training his pokemon and adapting to different battle styles he encountered gradually improving with each passing saga as trainer and person becoming more mature and focused.
It wasn't until BW and games revamp when he was regressed in persona and skill department to better go in correlation with message of "fresh start" games send out there.

7. What happened to your dream of becoming a Pokemon Master? Do you even remember it? If Ash had lose his reason to be a Pokemon Trainer, why the show still continues, other than the only reason of promoting the Pokemon franchise?

Ash still has his dream of becoming pokemon master stating it on numerous occasions. In fact in DP Lucian himself said how winning champion league is one of steps someone needs to conquer on road of becoming master, but its not only one. So we don't know what other challenges and complex tasks(like Battle Frontier was for example) Ash would need to accomplish before he becomes recognized as strongest trainer in world.

8. The Pokemon anime was originated from the main series Pokemon RPG game. But the game don't continue to use Red, the very first player of first main series Pokemon game, in later generations. What was the reason behind continue using Ash, where Ash was originated from Red?

True, but there should exist balance and difference between two medias allowing them to be individual in their own ways. When you exaggerate with inclusion of game elements, show lose on its unpredictability and originality with people not having something to look forward too being kept in suspense already knowing what characters and features they can expect if game pattern is followed strictly.

Its easier and more efficient for writers to write for some show consistently by involving a character they are familiar with, who already has background and guidelines established in past through which they could do follow up and continue than somebody new who might start out with a lot of instructions and problems.
With stable protagonist you can form brand about some show, iconic mascot through which new generations could have easier time in associating anime with, assure stable income of new customers and spread over series popularity through word of mouth to other people, which eventually generates bigger number of viewers and as final result more money.

If this show replaced protagonists like Yugioh or Digimon does it wouldn't generate so much popularity in first place. Same applies to Dragon ball and similar anime which have permanent star in some show.

9. The Ash fans said replacing him is an insult to him, but the anti-Ash fans say continue the current regression and degradation is even a bigger insult to him, because he is not a character on its own, but a marketing tool to lure audience and to promote Pokemon merchandise.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Degradation and lack of consistent development is bad, but its not any better to replace character either at this point deserving better than leaving cast without being used to full potential not getting proper closure. Like other traveling companions like Misty, Max, May etc which left before their time was up.

10. Pokemon as a franchise is popular because of the cute fictional creature called Pokemon, not Ash Ketchum. You wanted to talk about marketability and salability of the Pokemon merchandise due to Ash? His contribution is probably lower than one may expect.

In order to have successful and healthy franchise you need foundations on which you can develop long lasting impact on audience, achieve devotedness among viewers and stable ratings long term wise which can only be accomplished through stable character which develops over pong period of time. In who people will invest and become emotionally attached wanting to stay within show to see their favorites grow in new directions, utilize what they learned and grow forward developing devotedness to stay in franchise and show until series ends.

Which leads toward increase of popularity, series reputation and stable constant flux of money into some franchise.

By constantly replacing protagonists which represent pokemon franchise on their own would only bring contra effect with viewers becoming less attached and interested in following anime with repeated cycling taking away loyalty and eagerness in staying tune toward it. After two regions it would become basically too repetitive with nothing being left for fans to root for.

Problem other franchise which constantly do revamps and replace whole cast are experiencing having hard time in maintaining people interest not being anymore shadow of their former selves.

Not saying current formula pokemon utilizes is more positive solution either because shallow storyline, lack of continuity and static development of its characters and constant cast changing without finishing job they started with previous ones is eroding this show credibility and chance to be more successful.
But between alternative of getting rid of everything or keeping current character by putting more effort in storyline and development , second option would be much, much better in longer run.

11. Marketability is certainly not a good excuse to keep Ash forever, and should not become the only reason. FANG-TAN had stated already that new audience will attach to any main characters when they first introduced to the show, so actually it doesn't matter whether the protagonist of Pokemon anime is Ash or not. Also, by introducing new protagonist, it will not only attract new audience, but also keeping the old fans active, much better than using the same one over and over.

Or it does matter? We often forget to take in account how pokemon audience isn't only compound of kids which start watching pokemon with new generation leaving it after certain saga ends. Many of today target audience are kids which started following this anime in previous generation and on long term scale to people Ash represents brand this show established about itself being viewed along with Pikachu as face of pokemon anime.

He is main source of profit which drives new generations toward this show with both older and younger fans affiliating pokemon series with him and yellow rodent. Its not, Iris, Dawn, Misty, May, Brock etc but Ash, and when you build iconic status around some character representing pokemon anime for 15 years, he becomes synonym for some anime.
If people seriously think how Ash leaving wont leave any negative effect on young generations not bringing risk of alienating audience, than i have to say they are making baseless presumptions without taking in account all factors, both positive and negative connotations such move would pull with itself and impact character long stay left on series, viewer perception and franchise as whole.

Speaking of older fans i met over the years most want innovations, courage from writers to change approach toward handling of characters and story. Such as having Ash advance forward as trainer without resets being made, investing more in already popular characters doing build up on existing traits and story(like several other shows do) instead of constantly replacing them like they are on assembly line to start all over again with new ones.

To treat anime as continuity based story with writers staying faithful to it, as well consistent with character development.
Which cannot be hope to be achieved if you discard everything sweeping current issues under the rug starting out with someone else on who those same issues will just translate, since that way you cannot clean up mess and learn on your mistakes.

Learning from mistakes?

The writers learning from their mistakes?

For 15 years? Did they learn from their mistakes? Or do we need to wait another 15 years for them to actually realize what they're doing wrong?

 

[Raidou Kuzunoha XV]

Because that's exactly the problem: they aren't improving Ash OR the writing in general. How did a boy who KO'd two legendaries in the Sinnoh League crashed down horribly to lose to a noob who brought five pokemons to a 6-on-6 battle? I don't call THAT improvement.

How does replacing Ash fix the problem? Inserting another protagonist with bad writing isn't fixing the problem. It "might" fix the problem, but again, what kind of benefits or guarantees does said fix have over doing a better job with Ash?

@Raidou Kuzunoha XV
How interesting, that your reasons and viewpoints matches exactly to the ones I listed for the anti-replacing-Ash group right in the beginning of that post. They are mostly personal taste preference from the Ash fans, where they can tolerates bad scriptwritings, but cannot tolerate replacement of Ash no matter what.

I don't even feel like replying much to your argument, because my post also already gives the views and logics used most often by the anti-replacing-Ash group for their debates. There may be other reasons as well, and you may disapprove my points of view. But if you wanted to argue me back, first try to use some reason that is not listed in my previous post.

If you're talking about that list at the beginning of your post, then no, I had plenty more to say - there were also a few basic points I agreed with. Sadly, it seems like you simply had no desire to really read what I wrote and would prefer to talk down to me. Your argument mostly boils down to, "there's bad writing, so Ash must go." Basic reply, "if there's bad writing, it's not about Ash, it's about the writers."

There's no issue with wanting to see a new lead protagonist as a personal preference (or yes, keeping Ash for personal preference alone). Blaming all of the writing issues on Ash holds no water. There are ways of improving the anime while keeping the current lead, and AG and DP were steps in the right direction.

 

[Pokémon Master Ash]

Because that's exactly the problem: they aren't improving Ash OR the writing in general. How did a boy who KO'd two legendaries in the Sinnoh League crashed down horribly to lose to a noob who brought five pokemons to a 6-on-6 battle? I don't call THAT improvement.

How does replacing Ash fix the problem? Inserting another protagonist with bad writing isn't fixing the problem. It "might" fix the problem, but again, what kind of benefits or guarantees does said fix have over doing a better job with Ash?

@Raidou Kuzunoha XV
How interesting, that your reasons and viewpoints matches exactly to the ones I listed for the anti-replacing-Ash group right in the beginning of that post. They are mostly personal taste preference from the Ash fans, where they can tolerates bad scriptwritings, but cannot tolerate replacement of Ash no matter what.

I don't even feel like replying much to your argument, because my post also already gives the views and logics used most often by the anti-replacing-Ash group for their debates. There may be other reasons as well, and you may disapprove my points of view. But if you wanted to argue me back, first try to use some reason that is not listed in my previous post.

If you're talking about that list at the beginning of your post, then no, I had plenty more to say - there were also a few basic points I agreed with. Sadly, it seems like you simply had no desire to really read what I wrote and would prefer to talk down to me. Your argument mostly boils down to, "there's bad writing, so Ash must go." Basic reply, "if there's bad writing, it's not about Ash, it's about the writers."

There's no issue with wanting to see a new lead protagonist as a personal preference (or yes, keeping Ash for personal preference alone). Blaming all of the writing issues on Ash holds no water. There are ways of improving the anime while keeping the current lead, and AG and DP were steps in the right direction.

What's most frustrating is that the writers can easily fix the mess they've made out of everyone besides Tracey if they cared. They don't. Ash and company have become marketing tools for their disposal. And I'm not talking about BW. This happened much before the Unova saga in my eyes.

It's really sad. If they did do that, I'd be all for keeping them on the show. I love these guys-- I grew up with them, too: I can't hate them. I just don't want to see them disgraced and milked.

 

[Almonds]

Because that's exactly the problem: they aren't improving Ash OR the writing in general. How did a boy who KO'd two legendaries in the Sinnoh League crashed down horribly to lose to a noob who brought five pokemons to a 6-on-6 battle? I don't call THAT improvement.

How does replacing Ash fix the problem? Inserting another protagonist with bad writing isn't fixing the problem. It "might" fix the problem, but again, what kind of benefits or guarantees does said fix have over doing a better job with Ash?

@Raidou Kuzunoha XV
How interesting, that your reasons and viewpoints matches exactly to the ones I listed for the anti-replacing-Ash group right in the beginning of that post. They are mostly personal taste preference from the Ash fans, where they can tolerates bad scriptwritings, but cannot tolerate replacement of Ash no matter what.

I don't even feel like replying much to your argument, because my post also already gives the views and logics used most often by the anti-replacing-Ash group for their debates. There may be other reasons as well, and you may disapprove my points of view. But if you wanted to argue me back, first try to use some reason that is not listed in my previous post.

If you're talking about that list at the beginning of your post, then no, I had plenty more to say - there were also a few basic points I agreed with. Sadly, it seems like you simply had no desire to really read what I wrote and would prefer to talk down to me. Your argument mostly boils down to, "there's bad writing, so Ash must go." Basic reply, "if there's bad writing, it's not about Ash, it's about the writers."

There's no issue with wanting to see a new lead protagonist as a personal preference (or yes, keeping Ash for personal preference alone). Blaming all of the writing issues on Ash holds no water. There are ways of improving the anime while keeping the current lead, and AG and DP were steps in the right direction.

Maybe. If they actually cared to write something better about Ash.

 

[Odinn]

I think the one which should be replaced is Pikachu. He's way too popular to be replaced but it's been many years with a non fully evolved Pokemon to win a league. Also he gets resetted(exp. wise) every time when he moves to a new region with Ash.

 

[Hidden Mew]

What's most frustrating is that the writers can easily fix the mess they've made out of everyone besides Tracey if they cared. They don't. Ash and company have become marketing tools for their disposal. And I'm not talking about BW. This happened much before the Unova saga in my eyes.

It's really sad. If they did do that, I'd be all for keeping them on the show. I love these guys-- I grew up with them, too: I can't hate them. I just don't want to see them disgraced and milked.

They didn't become marketing tools. They've always been marketing tools. Even Tracey technically was when he had Marill before the second generation started to help foreshadow it. Ash takes the place of the male trainers in the new games, as the fact that he seems to get outfits slightly based on their outfits in every new series, so this isn't a new developing. They are going to milk them for all their worth and then some.

I can still understand why people want Ash to be replaced or think that he should, but I still don't really see an advantage to it. There's no guarantee that the new trainer would have any better writing around his character than Ash would or that he would have the same marketing appeal. The problems with Ash could be solved, or at least helped, with simply better writing. Whether or not that actually happens depends on the writers, as well as probably marketing factors, rather than Ash's presence. Personally speaking, I still like Ash for the most part. I'm not in favor of replacing him, but I wouldn't lose sleep if there was actually a chance for it to happen and it did happen either.

 

[GWrando]

I think rather than immediately replacing him, they should move Ash to the Brock role and focus on a rookie trainer. It would enable them to keep Ash, have him grow as a character and still focus on new characters.

They already did that with May, does that not count? Or did you not see the Hoenn saga?

They did it poorly in Hoenn, Ash acted as the mentor all of three episodes until Brock returned. After witch he returned to business as usual. He still gave her advice, but as time went on he regressed more and more into his old patterns until around the battle with Brawly he didn't really act like a mentor at all. So no... that doesn't count.

It was the writers mistake for bringing Brock back not Ash's for trying to help May out in the beginning. Besides, I'm sure if he didn't show up he would have probably continue doing so along with Max. As far as his regression goes, this happened in every saga and will probably happen again either with him in XY or another protagonist. If the writers wanted him to succeed than he would have already. Changing main characters won't solve this problem that they seem to have.

It is true that most of the problems lay with mistakes made to keep Ash continually in the position of a travelling trainer with a childlike wonder, the problem is continually doing so long enough, regressing him each time will eventually lead to a point where all fans, new and old, want the character replaced. This is due to certain writing tropes called "Aesop Amnesia", "The Chris Carter Effect", and "Yo-Yo Plot Points", granted I hate the names it’s the only way to make certain people understand what I am talking about; these scenarios will eventually cause all to tire of the continuous reset of the character and diminish the viewership of the series. The fact that it has lasted this long without people growing tired of it yet is nothing short of amazing. I think many Pokémon fans are beginning to suffer from Ending Fatigue... we want to see Ash's story end, just to see his story end and for no other reason.

The basic reasoning behind them not removing Ash previously is the fact that there are new viewers all the time... unfortunately they also feel to realize that with the accessibility of the internet to younger and younger fans and the growing amount of youths that base their primary opinion on what they hear and see online, added together with the numerous people online calling for the replacement of Ash will cause even the younger fans to turn against the once loved protagonist. We are headed for a perfect storm against Ash and the writers will realize it eventually, I just hope it's before it leads to the end of Pokémon.

Once again I hate using tropes when referring to things... I just don't think people have the patience to read the five page editorial I wrote on Pokémon and the current state of its primary character.

I do agree to a point.

First off Ash wont be going anywhere, his conection to the old characters and Pokemon plus his marketability and Pikachu. Pikachu alone is enough to keep him in. I also get the feeling that any new protagonist would be a carbon copy of Ash.

What really annoys me is they continue to struggle to surround Ash with the right travelling companions, reset him to being a noob at the start of every new region and not diversifying his as a trainer with the Pokemon he catches. The trio of Ash, Misty and Brock was brilliant, then i even felt they did well in Hoenn. But in Sinnoh Dawn and Piplup were new trainer and Pokemon made out to be on the same level as Ash and Pikachu. Unova was a train wreck on all fronts, the companions added nothing new, Ash regressed as a trainer and his leauge defeate was just a total mess. Not to mention that in Unova Pikachu was set back to level 1 and lost Volt Tackle, with the rival outclassing Ash being a brand new first time trainer. (I still cant get over the loss of Volt Tackle).

In Sinnoh we saw how he coped with his Pokemon and their issues, allowing them to overcome them exhibiting his skills. Torterras issues after evolution, Gligar's fear of heights and childishness, Buizel fitting into his team, the trade that with Aipom and Buizel, Infernape's blaze and Paul issues. All exhibited Ash at his best, they even snuck in a Pikachu evolution episode and Ash's battling brilliance with things like adapting the spin move and a counter shield to name a few.

The reality is that the only reason that fans are "suffer from Ending Fatigue... we want to see Ash's story end, just to see his story end and for no other reason." is because of the way the writers are portraying him, a new protagonist will not change that. I think all the writers need to do to reignite/refresh Ash is to give him the right travelling companions and rivals, stop making him a noob and allow him to display qualities as a trainer he has shown before give him a dragon type to fully train from start to finish or a ghost type, not giving him the same squad every gen, there are a number of types he has not caught yet, maybe an Eevee to see how he would handle all the evolution options. Maybe bringing back old Pokemon into rotation like with Charizard or even finding old friends like Pigeot. Even adding rare Pokemon to his team, personally i would love to see Ash with an Arcanine or Riolu/Lucario given his aura being so strong. Maybe even just to mature his character, im sure that would help, or confirm the whole Ash Misty thing.

For me the base of it is that Ash is not necessarily done, the writers just need to start doing their job..... I am enjoying the N series though look forward to seeing the return to Kanto too.

Exactly what I was trying to get across. The writers need to utilize what we've already learned about Ash to revitalize him otherwise the story will lead to what I mentioned. We need to have him face both his past and his future, finally bring the character back to relevance. There are numerous ways to do it, and a good writer could. I'm not calling for a replacement for Ash, honestly I think the character is good and could last for a while, the writers just have forgotten that they need to keep the character growing. Before the nerfed status of Ash in Unova almost nobody was calling for his replacement, mostly because despite the slow filler of Diamond and Pearl, we got to see the character grow. He even began actively learning about how to care for Pokémon from Brock, helping his Pokémon overcome their problems, and finally making it to the Semi-Finals in the Sinnoh League.

With Kalos being confirmed with having Ash, I hope they learn from their mistakes in Unova and remember what they did right throughout DP, AG, and even the Original Generation. The reason why we fans liked those series isn't just Ash, its because of how he interacted with the other characters. In the Original Generation he was a newbie, so the interactions between him and his companions was almost like a student travelling with his mentors. In Advanced Generation they tried a more family approach, making Ash, May, Brock, and Max a secondary family for each other on the road. In DP we got to see Ash stand on equal footing with both his companions, despite Dawn being a beginner herself. They had all three of them help each other grow and learn until they became equals.

And then they nerfed him...

Which led to all what I said in my previous post. Yes they did reset him in a way at the beginning of each region, but with everything before Unova, the previous series had an impact on the next continually changing the dynamics of the characters. With Unova... Ash was nerfed and the companions don't have the same connection with him they did in the past. They just seem like three people travelling together more than anything else. That doesn't mean I didn't like either of the new companions... I actually enjoyed Cilan... but without that connection, and with that nerfing...

The only thing we can do for Kalos at the moment is wait and see what will happen...

 

[Satoshi Da Ze]

Re: Do you think Satoshi should be replaced?

If they ever decided to take Satoshi out, I'd be pretty upset if they did so before he didn't even have his first match in the finals. He doesn't needs to win the league or the champion league, but at least reach the finals of the pokemon league...

 

[SlimeStack]

Ash was perfect until DP's Snowpoint City IMO. Ash went through his character development between the Indigo League and the Silver Conference, then his skills improved in Hoenn and a lot more in the Battle Frontier. Then DP was series where Ash was doing very well and becoming very strong, and it was the first series to give the E4 and champion a lot of screen time on top of giving details about the champion league. But then suddenly there's a hiccup in the writing and the pacing grinds to a halt for about a year, then suddenly Sinnoh League Victors comes off as incredibly rushed. So rushed in fact that Ash's top 4 battle becomes a one-episode sweep.

Had there been another 3-5 episodes, Ash would have easily and believably become the champion and taken on one of the elite four they paid so much attention to. Is there anything in interviews that hints any of that was ever going to happen? The end of DP seriously gives me the impression that Ash's victory was cut out in order to wrap the series up in time for the next generation.

I don't think it really needs saying what BW did to Ash. They were doing very well with Ash's growth despite going through the same badge quest 4 times, it was totally uncalled for to throw all the experience he got out of the window.

As for replacing Ash, I don't see the point. Not only would the new protagonist probably act the same as Ash, but if they're happy to destroy Ash's battle competence like that, then they're probably happy to cripple the next protagonist too. Not to mention BW handled Ash 2.0's development pretty badly, so I can't imagine the new character would ever be anything special. A new face with a new mascot would be fresh, but I care more about the writing than who the character actually is.

 

[Jonn Jonzz]

I'm against replacing Ash. The question I have for all of those who think Ash needs to be written out so that the anime can do something new is: what makes you think the writing would be any better without Ash than with Ash? In all probability, we'd get something no better than early B/W, only without even the courtesy to older viewers of having SOME degree of continuity to the show they grew up with through the presence of Ash, Pikachu, Jessie, James, and Meowth. If Ash were scrapped, all of the rest of them would have to go as well (unless Team Rocket moves on to harassing a new kid) and the series would practically be a reboot. The question is what then? A Pokemon Adventures style story, is probably the most common answer, and while I'd love to see that great manga adapted in anime form, I doubt it would be adapted due to the length of the Pokemon Adventures manga being too massive (Where would they start? Adapting the modern manga is by far the most plausible choice from a business standpoint. What most people who want to see a Pokemon Adventures anime want is to see the Kanto part, but there's no chance of that being animated, I mean the anime exists to promote the new games' Pokemon and Kanto Pokemon aren't new), as well as the chance that the change would be too jarring and alienate existing audiences, and it might be best to just leave it unspoiled and enjoy what we've got with B/W. Hey, at least Charizard's back and Team Rocket's better than they were in early B/W.

 

[Madame Pika]

The more I think about it, the more the answer is a resounding yes! For one thing, the writers have been pretty good at replacing characters. Shigeru<Shinji. Kasumi<Haruka. Takeshi<Dento. Sure, Hikari wasn't an improvement but still she was a good character. I believe that part of what made them so excellent was that they were written with the fact that they wouldn't be on the show for ever in mind. When a creator knows a character doesn't have to appeal for ever and ever, they're less scared of developing them. Takeshi remained pretty much the same up until DP: the series where he left the show. Kasumi developed. I won't deny that. But they developed her least interesting traits rather than her more interesting ones and played out the same ones again and again. She didn't really become truely interesting until the Hoso.

The only characters that were disproving this were Satoshi and Team Rocket (though by how much they were disproved depends on the series.) With Best Wishes, that argument can go out of the window though.

That said, I don't want Best Wishes to be Satoshi's last series, though I can't see him recovering form it either.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To Madame Pika: i don't think this proves anything over new character being more beneficial over Ash being kept to be honest.

Especially when examples you provided are matter of opinion depending on people criteria and taste if they will find replacement to be better than its predecessor. Since many will think exact opposite viewing Gary better than Paul, Misty more interesting to May or Brock more worthwhile than Cilan with same applying to development depending on individual perceive if someone changed for worse or better , finding myself how your example(Misty) kept main aspects which made her interesting staying consistent in personality.

Being new=/=necessarily mean he is going to be better.

As such i don't believe Ash replacement would be any more appealing, lucrative and valuable for game promotion and series storyline than Ash currently is really. Considering how most people judging by their reception don't want to follow someone growing from blank slate going through same rudimentary, simple routine Ash went through being bored of this by now.
But to see writers break new grounds with current protagonist going through more significant growth like winning league, challenging E4, entering special tasks in future regions until he becomes recognized as master etc.
People want innovations, courage from writers to change approach toward handling of characters and story. Which involves Ash not being reset building up on his story , investing more in already popular characters doing build up on existing traits and story instead of constant replacing and staying faithful to continuity and character growth.

Something which Ash fulfills predispositions to go through having history and amount of experience behind himself to go on next step developing in new, more unique yet interesting light bringing more depth to story than new protagonist could.

Granted his performance in BW wasn't something to be proud of, but at same time bad handling in one saga doesn't make statistic and prove how same thing would happen in future. Especially when ratings as staggered as they already are indicate how current approach doesn't work with writers by now having time to analyze on mistakes they did to prevent same scenario happening again. Otherwise we would still have same level of battling, development and storytelling like it was case 10 years ago. Which wasn't bad imo by any means, but as time goes on writers usually improve and learn on mistakes, regardless of potentially becoming worse on other aspects.

Unlike Ash new protagonist would have nothing behind himself dragging lot of risk factored in, since there is no groundwork and any indication to make us believe how he would be accepted among show audience and bring promotion and popularity to same success like Ash does.

It simply makes non sense imo to replace main star of some anime after such long time and risk everything ending up0with character who might be worse than Ash is damaging series reputation and integrity alienating large contingent of fandom which actually cares for current character and story .

Ditto i doubt it will happen anyway with interview with mr. Hidaka from 2008 serving as pretty good evidence how he isn't going anytime soon staying and not becoming master until pokemon anime ends for real.

 

[Madame Pika]

Pokemonfan132. I'm sorry. I didn't make my point clear and my message was rushed. What I was trying to say was that the later characters are better in terms of development, not in terms of being more interesting. They're also better in terms of leaving more completed. Being more interesting is like you said, completely opinion.

Indeed to show how much I agree that it's opinion, I'll begin with an example where I find the less developed and completed character more interesting: Kasumi and Iris. Kasumi continued in through her run getting the same developments again and again. Her battling skills improved but only so that Satoshi would still have someone to go with against her. Iris on the other hand, once she has had a development she has had it and it remains and this happens many times, as opposed to Kasumi's once (with her motherly side). Whilst you can read more developments into Kasumi's run, the fact is that Iris's are deliberate. (Of course for her haters, this only makes Iris even more unlikable.) Iris is looking to become a more rounded up character. My next example that Shinji is better developed than Shigeru comes from the fact, that Shinji does better in every area of development aside from one which is debatable (back story [as in he actually has one] and establishment [Shinji is a far more distinct character]) with change being debatable in quality. (I personally perfected it since it went in an unexpected direction.) When Shinji left there were little questions: he will become stronger. When Shigeru left we had no idea if he would become a good researcher or not.

Now, looking at Takeshi and Shigeru, it isn't until the series that they are replaced that they get any development (remaining the same in pretty much every appearance). (In Kanto, I find it hard to argue that Shigeru had a personality rather than just being a set of gags.) In Jouto though, Shigeru slowly becomes more mature (despite his lack of focus) and changes goal. Takeshi is pretty much the same in Kanto, Jouto, and Houen. In DP though his lack of development as a breeder is looked at and turned into a goal changing plot. This adds on to my point that it is replacement that gives development for the creators of pokemon.

I do regret putting Dento and Takeshi in that list though. With Dento, is very subjective how much development he has got and I think my own personal feelings got in the way there. Of course, it's impossible to reply to this thread without using opinion. Even that developed characters are better than undeveloped characters is an opinion as well as perfecting characters to be complete.

Since I want Satoshi to be complete and developed, I would like him replaced. Also since replacement tends to lead to replaced, I believe that if the next character is created as a replaceable character he would be better than Satoshi.

Of course, I am aware that this is likely to never happen simply due to it being Satoshi's story.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To Madame Pika:
Since this isn't appropriate place for it i won't talk about development of others, but ill just say how more focus don't necessarily mean better development. As such in Iris case aside from being more focused i find Misty had overall more believable growth from what she got developing on various sides gaining better depth as result of it.

With that in mind since quality can be often subjective i don't find how inclusion of new companion instead of Ash would make him necessarily more appealing and alluring to current fans, nor i think many would appreciate to have replace pokemon icon with some cheap knock off which could very well end up as much more worse than character we grew attached and who became synonym for this show is.

While way he is being treated currently saddens me, because i care and still like his character i want him to continue in XY saga and possible future ones until writers do some more notable steps with his story and do justice to character deserving to leave on high note. And that's certainly not the case now.

He hasn't won a league yet,concept of champion league which was for first time brought in DP has been relatively unexplored and Ash never officially challenged E4 and champion.

From character point Ash is still quite brash and impulsive having several flaws which are standing on his way of achieving his goal rushing into things without thinking,having problems in utilizing power of his pokemon to their true potential,being at times overconfident overestimating his abilities as trainer costing him matches in process etc. Along with very little being explored about his past, father which was apparently successful trainer, connection to Ho-Oh and why he is viewed as "special one" etc,

Even after winning league, there is plenty of left to be done with character. Like leveling up as trainer learning how to develop new battling style, enter special harder challenges like Battle Frontier was, entering other leagues he didn't won and battle stronger trainers. Heck there could be whole type of league for "Masters" someone earns right to enter after winning champion league with all of this containing potential for completely new, unseen concept and way to develop Ash character adding new light to him and making his journey seem more worthwhile.

Making me come to conclusion how there is no point in dropping everything away for new companion which will go through basics and same repetitive routine we followed Ash go through for last 15 years.

Exactly because of long stay Ash has behind himself there exist background and accumulated growth which allows to take him forward on next steps as trainer, which cannot be accomplished with new protagonist which hasn't accomplished anything yet and lacks credibility and experience to make sequel of what was established before.

Something i don't want to end up wasted being one of reasons why im in favor of Ash sticking in anime until he gets sustainable amount of development feeling like he accomplished something big enough which would justify all hard work and effort he went through on this long journey fulfilling requirements to give him satisfying, good conclusion.

Understandably enough i can understand people skepticism of way he is currently handled not leaving much hope to expect such thing. However just like "same tire on automobile cannot last forever and endure constant pressure", current formula of revamp and repetitive cycle Ash goes through cannot last forever either.

Or for some considerable amount of time in future with writers running out of ways to keep things untouched forever along with negative reception from loyal fans, constant drop in ratings and drop of series reputation serving as indication how in order to have pokemon remain attractive to upcoming generations and current fans they will have to reconsider their approach and change things up. Leading eventually toward better and more quality written story and handle of Ash character.

Which is something we don't need new protagonist for, because first step toward recovery and fix of issue doesn't lie in replacing character bit in those which write for something evaluating their flaws and learning how to clean created mess putting more effort and creativity in product they are making.

 

[Albedo]

He should have won back in the OS but since he is stuck in a infinite loop as much as he should be replaced he will stay forever. It will be bittersweet when he finally wins because it was something that should have happened long ago.

 

[Pokémon Master Ash]

He should have won back in the OS but since he is stuck in a infinite loop as much as he should be replaced he will stay forever. It will be bittersweet when he finally wins because it was something that should have happened long ago.

Agreed.