Do you think Ash's Greninja was overrated?

[FinnishPokéFan92]

As we know, Greninja as a species is quite possibly the most popular Pokémon out there. But what is your opinion on Ash's Greninja from the XY series of the Pokémon anime? Do you think it was overrated or not? Did it get too much special treatment/attention in your opinion or not?

 

[Max1996]

As much as I've come to love Greninja because of the XY&Z series, I have to agree that Ash's got a bit too much exposure.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Without a doubt. Not only was it a cop out that they invented a form for Greninja simply so they wouldn’t have to give Ash a Mega Evolution but it overshadowed everyone as a result. Heck, the existence of it is to blame for the writers having to write it out of the show at the end of the saga.

 

[Handy Man]

You could say that Ash's Greninja is overrated, and I would agree with that. With that said, I feel like there's a lot more to Ash's Greninja than that. To start, Froakie was always one of Ash's go-to Pokemon throughout XY, along with Pikachu and Fletchling. Froakie and Frogadier were used in many Kalos battles, like against Grant, Ramos, and Olympia. Froakie and Frogadier's frubbles were also used often as a plot device in order to climb or grab far-away things, and were even used sometimes during battles. With how Ash didn't get Chespin or Fennekin, plus the fact that Froakie would evolve into Frogadier, it was clear that it would become a Greninja eventually. After all, Greninja was also popular in Smash 4 and competitive Pokemon at the time, so the producers probably wanted Ash to get a Greninja no matter what. What really made Ash's Greninja overrated was the introduction of the Ash-Greninja, which I personally liked a lot but was ultimately not essential.

Ash-Greninja was great for marketing the character, as it was shown to beat Megas with type disadvantages, like Mega Abomasnow and Mega Sceptile. It also came close to beating both Diantha's Gardevoir and Alain's Mega Charizard X, both very impressive feats considering how strong Diantha and Alain are. I think the problem with the Ash-Greninja form is that Ash felt like he was forced to depend on it in order to succeed, which is what pushed Greninja into getting more screentime than the rest of his party, including Pikachu. Not only did focusing so much on Ash-Greninja take away screentime from other characters, it also made it seem like Greninja on it's own wasn't worth as much. In my opinion, that is why Ash's Greninja is overrated; the abundance of screentime resulted in plenty of action, but because it's power was much more than the other Pokémon, nothing else could stand a chance to something like Mega Charizard X or Mega Gardevoir. It didn't help that Ash didn't have any Mega Evolvtion-capable Pokemon on hand during XY, like his own Charizard or Sceptile. With that said, some of the best moments during XYZ did come from Ash-Greninja, and I'm okay with him being overrated if it meant we got some epic battles for his time on the show.

 

[R1ke]

It definitely got way too much attention and soaked up screentime from everyone else in the party as soon as it evolved. I do think it was clever of them to give it to Ash, since it allows him to battle mega evolutions without having to bring back his reserves to mega evolve, allowing his Kalos pokemon to still be in the spotlight (as a reserve would become the new centre of attention). That being said, the bond phenomenon concept was pretty silly. The fact that this Froakie is destined to take on a hero form which already looks like Ash (correct me if I’m wrong here) and that no other pokemon has this similar kind of transformation just doesn’t make sense (not even the Greninja that belongs to Ippei, which has been spending its whole life leading/defending the village in the first place).

Still, it was nice seeing Ash have his own signature pokemon (besides Pikachu), and it lead to some great battles. Greninja himself, especially base form, felt pretty underwhelming in battle and bland in personality though - Froakie/Frogadier were fine here. So yeah I think it’s pretty overrated to be honest. I even prefer his Lucario right now.

Greninja’s biggest crime though is not knowing night slash. Why does it still have cut? Ash, what are you doing man?

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Greninja’s biggest crime though is not knowing night slash though. Why does it still have cut? Ash, what are you doing man?

Seconding this. Though if I were to make a guess as to why Greninja wasn't given that move, it might be because the writers thought it sounded too "villainous" (it's Japanese name is "Crossroad Killing", which is a reference to how certain samurai would test the sharpness of their blades by ambushing and then cutting down defenseless passerbys on the road) for a character that was explicitly built up as a heroic protector and more or less the XYZ saga's main protagonist. That being said, they still could have given Greninja a better moveset. Like, why not make Aerial Ace the Cut replacement (since that too is based on a sword/cutting technique but lacks the villainous connotations) and then give Greninja something like... I don't know, I guess Extrasensory, maybe?

Then again, during the BW saga Trip's Servine was constantly one-shotting things with Cut, so I guess the writers might be under the impression that it's an awesome and powerful move and not one of the worst HMs in existence.

 

[Greninjaman]

Why did they say that only Greninja could do it? They way they laid it out (super strong bond if I recall), it could work with any Pokemon.

 

[R1ke]

Seconding this. Though if I were to make a guess as to why Greninja wasn't given that move, it might be because the writers thought it sounded too "villainous" (it's Japanese name is "Crossroad Killing", which is a reference to how certain samurai would test the sharpness of their blades by ambushing and then cutting down defenseless passerbys on the road) for a character that was explicitly built up as a heroic protector and more or less the XYZ saga's main protagonist. That being said, they still could have given Greninja a better moveset. Like, why not make Aerial Ace the Cut replacement (since that too is based on a sword/cutting technique but lacks the villainous connotations) and then give Greninja something like... I don't know, I guess Extrasensory, maybe?

Then again, during the BW saga Trip's Servine was constantly one-shotting things with Cut, so I guess the writers might be under the impression that it's an awesome and powerful move and not one of the worst HMs in existence.

Yeah Ash saying ‘Crossroad Killing’ in most of his matches would’ve been pretty aggressive I guess. It’s just kinda funny that Ippei and Sanpei’s Greninjas both have it yet Ash’s doesn’t.

Meanwhile, Farfetch’d has it of all pokemon. Wow that thing is hardcore. Though given its personality and backstory, it kinda makes sense. Him constantly beating up unsuspecting pokemon on the bridge is kinda like a more family friendly version of that samurai explanation you were talking about.

Edit: Oh I just realised that Ash Greninja in the sun and moon demo also knows night slash. Even the games knew something was up lol.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

One thing that has made me kinda recent Greninja is how many people all over the internet, such as in YouTube comments, are constantly begging for it come back. As if it didn't have more than enough time as the center of attention in XY.

 

[Max1996]

One thing that has made me kinda recent Greninja is how many people all over the internet, such as in YouTube comments, are constantly begging for it come back. As if it didn't have more than enough time as the center of attention in XY.

Well, it's to be expected now, considering the (advertised) format of the current series.

 

[FinnishPokéFan92]

Well, it's to be expected now, considering the (advertised) format of the current series.

Maybe true, but it was present even way before that.

 

[nickdt]

Yes, especially since Ash-Greninja (And as such by defeault Greninja), gets treated as the ace of the Kalos team, while in fact that was Talonflame (Participated in every gym battle except for Clemont and it didn't go down in any gym without taking at least one mon with it, except against Grant), whereas Greninja fought in only 4 gyms and only truly shined in one - vs Ramos. Talonflame as such, was more vital to Ash' Kalos Gym challenge than Greninja ever was. Heck, even in the league Talonflame didn't go down without taking down another mon. Talonflame is the strongest Kalos mon by a mile and by extentsion as such also his strongest bird.

Ash-Greninja as a whole wasn't that bad and the claim that is soaked up to much screen-time is a false one, since the only one who really suffered was Noivern (Talonflame and Hawlucha didn't really need the screentime anymore), but in the case of Noivern, that was due to a number of factors (It came way to late as an Egg in a team already full of fully evolved mons, which resulted in it getting minimal screentime and development, which made its evolution felt rushed and it didn't have enough time to put its own mark on the team, unlike Talonflame and Hawlucha) and not Ash-Greninja soaking up the screentime alone.

Ash-Greninja isn't overrated in the anime (heck, its a medicore mon looking at battle prowess), the fans make it overrated at the expense of Talonflame and Hawlucha, who both have a better battle record if we take everything into consideration and that is the main problem with Ash-Greninja.

 

[Daren]

One thing that has made me kinda recent Greninja is how many people all over the internet, such as in YouTube comments, are constantly begging for it come back. As if it didn't have more than enough time as the center of attention in XY.

There was a period of time when people were constantly asking for Charizard to come back, too. I suspect it's also being reinforced because he got all that attention but didn't defeat his rival or do anything noteworthy as a competitive battler.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Yes, especially since Ash-Greninja (And as such by defeault Greninja), gets treated as the ace of the Kalos team, while in fact that was Talonflame (Participated in every gym battle except for Clemont and it didn't go down in any gym without taking at least one mon with it, except against Grant), whereas Greninja fought in only 4 gyms and only truly shined in one - vs Ramos. Talonflame as such, was more vital to Ash' Kalos Gym challenge than Greninja ever was. Heck, even in the league Talonflame didn't go down without taking down another mon. Talonflame is the strongest Kalos mon by a mile and by extentsion as such also his strongest bird.

Ash-Greninja as a whole wasn't that bad and the claim that is soaked up to much screen-time is a false one, since the only one who really suffered was Noivern (Talonflame and Hawlucha didn't really need the screentime anymore), but in the case of Noivern, that was due to a number of factors (It came way to late as an Egg in a team already full of fully evolved mons, which resulted in it getting minimal screentime and development, which made its evolution felt rushed and it didn't have enough time to put its own mark on the team, unlike Talonflame and Hawlucha) and not Ash-Greninja soaking up the screentime alone.

Ash-Greninja isn't overrated in the anime (heck, its a medicore mon looking at battle prowess), the fans make it overrated at the expense of Talonflame and Hawlucha, who both have a better battle record if we take everything into consideration and that is the main problem with Ash-Greninja.

I think the reason Talonflame is not considered Ash's Kalos ace is because despite her participating in most Gyms and nearly always taking down at least one opponent, she was never the "star" in any of them (i.e. the final Pokemon standing who defeats the Gym Leader's ace): against Viola, Grant, and Korrina that was Pikachu. Against Valerie it was Hawlucha. Against Clemont it was Goodra. And against the rest it was Frogadier/Greninja (yes, even in Olympia's match, as although that was a double battle, the battle itself seemed to focus on Frogadier as the main fighter). Yes, it's pretty darn unfair, but unfortunately it does make sense for the Pokemon that defeats a Gym Leader's ace to be more memorable than the rest, since the fight against a Gym Leader ace is the climatic fight, so it's the one that'll inevitably stick out in viewers' memories more.

Besides, Greninja was still the one to get that super-special-unique form in the end, which only makes him stand out even more in the eyes of viewers regardless of actual win/loss ratios... and honestly, I don't think a Pokemon's strength can be accurately measured by hard numbers in a "it won/lost this many battles" way, since those statistics don't really measure things like the quality of the fights or the caliber of the opponents: if Ash caught a Sentret and only ever used them in one battle where they defeated a Magikarp, that Sentret would technically have a 100% win rate, higher than that of seasoned fighters like Bulbasaur, Charizard, Infernape, or Swellow. Would anyone argue that this hypothetical Sentret is stronger than either of those guys based on hard percentage of wins alone? I don't think so. I do agree that Greninja is probably not as strong as other regional aces and that his power is overhyped by the fandom, but I don't think those conclusions come completely out of nowhere.

 

[Islander Princess]

I think so, yes. XY bugged me for a lot of reasons and Greninja was definitely one of them. Don't get me wrong: he is a cool Pokémon, and I really like the bond they created between him and Ash, as well as the fact that a majority of their battles were extremely cool and entertaining. But it did get to a point where it not only felt like overkill, but took a lot of focus away from Ash's other Pokémon. I honestly have a hard time remembering most of Ash's other Kalos Pokémon; Greninja is all that ever comes to mind.

Also, perhaps an unpopular opinion, but I wasn't really thrilled with how it ended for him. It actually kind of felt like a waste, after all of the work and focus that went into Greninja as not just a Pokémon but as a character himself; the trials he overcame with Ash, their bond, etc. Him staying back in a forest to fight off the vines just felt very anticlimactic. Is it better than him sitting stagnant at Oak's lab? I suppose so, but after you've gone through the entirety of XY where he took up a lot of time in the series, it left me feeling pretty cold, especially considering that still doesn't guarantee we'll ever see him again.

And I will agree that the constant begging to see Greninja again that you come across online gets pretty annoying. I wouldn't mind seeing him again, but there are plenty of Pokémon of Ash's who got much less development on their first go around that I'd prefer to see first. It's fine for people to want to see him again, but the bordering on demanding it that a lot of people run with is super off-putting.

 

[Daren]

Besides, Greninja was still the one to get that super-special-unique form in the end, which only makes him stand out even more in the eyes of viewers regardless of actual win/loss ratios...

According to this chart below, Greninja actually did have a better W/L ratio than Talonflame or Hawlucha, as well as the "Ace" Gym leader wins.

Spoiler

View: https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/c2ygy8/the_total_battles_and_win_rates_of_ashs_pokemon_oc/

Goodra and Pikachu (you have to manually calc Pikachu's Kalos record yourself since the chart combined all regions for him, but it's 73%--his highest gen 6 one by a good margin) are above him, though, and that's just for XY 'mon.

I do agree that Greninja is probably not as strong as other regional aces and that his power is overhyped by the fandom, but I don't think those conclusions come completely out of nowhere.

It's tricky to say because the show doesn't give us many barometers to compare; Pikachu's power wildly fluctuates all over the place and there aren't a lot of other ways to compare them, and Pokémon doesn't really do the hard line Dragon Ball style power comparison thing anyways.

Perhaps not too surprisingly his Kanto team is probably the most accomplished; they won both the Orange League and the battle with Brandon. But are they the strongest? No way to tell.

 

[Silktree]

Let's put it this way: If Ash's Lucario gets close to that level of shilling (it's getting there), I will only watch episodes that barely feature it.

 

[Panky..]

Let's put it this way: If Ash's Lucario gets close to that level of shilling (it's getting there), I will only watch episodes that barely feature it.

At least Lucario has actually displayed far more personality and character traits in just 3 episodes, than Greninja did ever since evolution. Greninja lacked any character post-evolution and was used as a plot device for the most part when it came to the faux-Mega Evolution.

There's no question about this - it's not Greninja in general, but Ash-Greninja that is very overrated, which is made even more annoying when stans clamor for its return in most sections of the internet despite it not being that special.

I still consider Infernape to be stronger than Greninja.

 

[swiftgallade46]

“Overrated” is a highly subjective term, and I don’t personally think it was. I don’t see why it didn’t deserve to be held in high esteem. It was a competent battler, had the “cool, calm, collected” personality that some people enjoy, played a large role in several plotlines, and was given an exclusive burst mechanic. There are plenty of reasons to like it.

Plus, I doubt that most people who like it are saying it’s flawless. Just enjoyable.

 

[game3524]

One thing that has made me kinda recent Greninja is how many people all over the internet, such as in YouTube comments, are constantly begging for it come back. As if it didn't have more than enough time as the center of attention in XY.

I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that despite all of the hype Greninja really didn't have a signature win. Charizard ended Gary's career, Sceptile took out Darkari, Infernape proved Paul wrong, and Lycanroc won the league. Greninja "almost" beat Diantha, but it still lost and it beat Sawyer (but that seems inconsequential IMO). I think if Greninja had won against Zard X, a lot of these people wouldn't be clamoring for it to return.