Do you think Grass Starters have fallen off in the Anime?

[Rainbow-Rain]

You may recall I made a Thread analyzing the treatment Water Starters get in the anime a while back
Thread 'Why are Water Starters always the worst handled Starters in the Anime?' https://forums.bulbagarden.net/index.php?threads/why-are-water-starters-always-the-worst-handled-starters-in-the-anime.290445/

But lately I have also been wondering about the way Grass and Fire Starters get treated also

Anyways, since How do you feel about the way Grass Starters have been treated in the last few Generations?

I thought Bulbasaur, Bayleef, and Sceptile were handled nicely but starting with Torterra.... Well things have gotten really spotty since then....

- Torterra you poor sweet summer child. You started off so well as a Turtwig and things just went on a downwards spiral from there.

- Snivy. Sigh What a sad waste of potential this was. Remember when it was hinted that she used to have a Trainer before Ash? The writers surely didn't.

- Chespin. Yeah he was done dirty. His fate was pretty much sealed the moment he went to Clemont

- Rowlet. Now this one wasn't TOO bad overall but his sleeping gag and the battle against his Final Form led to him becoming one of the most controversial of Ash's Pokemon

- Grookey. JEEZ I don't even know where to start?


So I wanted to know if you guys agree or disagree on whether Grass Starters in the anime have fallen off since Gen 3?
(I'll make a thread on Fire Starters later)

 

[P_S_B]

I hope they manage to bring them back up for Gen 9 since Sprigatito is my favorite of the Gen 9 starters and I will know how Grookey fans feel if they treat it just as badly.

 

[Silktree]

Now that you mention it...

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

I hope they manage to bring them back up for Gen 9 since Sprigatito is my favorite of the Gen 9 starters and I will know how Grookey fans feel if they treat it just as badly.

Given how popular Sprigatito seems to be atm, I feel like it won't be ignored at least

But it'll also depend on how it's evolution line pans out and how popular that'll be

 

[Sai]

Grass starters fell off after Sceptile. Bulbasaur, Bayleaf, and Sceptile were major pokemon on each team. Turtwig started off with a lot of screentime but fell off the moment Ash got Chimchar.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

@Ghost Diplocaulus @Hidden Mew @Enzo @PkmnTrainerV @Unireon @A Wild Luxray @Kurolegacy


Since you guys have some of the best takes on this website I'd like to know some of your opinions on this.

I used to think Water Starters got the worst treatment in the anime but now after thinking about it I wonder if Grass Starters have it even worse?

 

[Sai]

I actually think fire starters have it the best too. Besides Charizard, Infernape, and Incineroar, we have two Quilava with Ash and Dawn, Pignite got better focus than the other two in BW.

Then Combusken and Braixen were handled fairly well with May and Serena too. And Go's Cinderace is his best treated starter.

 

[Unireon]

At least there were more Grass Starters that had good, or decent, developments.
Even Naetoru was going well, but it got screwed by the staff after evolving.
We should have taken it as a sign of the decline that will come......
Though, they should have given the green gremlin to a Cotd; it is too annoying and unbearable.

But for the Water ones; only Zenigame and Keromatsu, and to a lesser extent Pocchama, were treated well.
And even then, Kameiru got too little compared to both its Pre-evolution and Evolution.
The rest got subpar writing at best and lack of focus at worst.

I agree that we should wait for the Citerian/Hispanian Starters full lines to be revealed.
Remember that Fokko/Teerunaa began popular, but then Mahoxy happened and plummeted.
However, being popular now doesn't mean so much; just look at how they mishandled Inteleon.

Just wishing that, for once, they could neglect the Fire one, and focus only on Nyaoha and Kuwassu.
Personal bias, maybe, since I already dislike Hogaata due to its silly-looking design.

 

[Sai]

It also likely has to do with the final evolutions of many grass starters not being that popular after Sceptile, and in Rowlett case its first form was too marketable like Piplup was. Decidueye is pretty well liked design wise.

 

[Rainbow-Rain]

It also likely has to do with the final evolutions of many grass starters not being that popular after Sceptile, and in Rowlett case its first form was too marketable like Piplup was. Decidueye is pretty well liked design wise.

Serperior was just as if not moreso popular than Snivy

 

[RetroPokeFan]

It will still forever baffle me as to why Snivy never evolved especially since I think it would have been great for her but alas it became one of the victims of Ash trying to juggle way too many mons.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

I think the Grass type starters are more so a mixed bag. They don't get the love the Fire type starters get, but they're not nearly as lackluster as Water type starters.

The first three Grass starters got it pretty good. Bulbasaur was well developed and a reliable Pokemon for Ash. Bayleef was another who got decent development, had a nice personality, and did well enough in battle. Sceptile is another one of the best handled Grass type starters, with it being among Ash's best Pokemon. He also had some personality and development.

Things went downhill with Torterra. Started out great as a Turtwig, though consistently jobbed after evolving. The development they went through after having Turtwig evolve was mediocre, with most of it not even mattering because Torterra STILL jobbed frequently.

Snivy was pretty bad. Snivy was set up with a lot of potential. She had a solid personality, but they went nowhere with the storline that she abandon her previous trainer. She hsd no development. She was very stagnat, with her moveset not going through a single change even. She was just wasted potential.

People tend to say Chespin is the worst, but I disagree. While I wish they did more and developed him, he wasn't bad at all. I think people exaggerate him. I thought he was adorable and I enjoyed his antics and his friendship with Serena's Pancham. He still came in handy at times and we did see him participating in battles a bit, though he could have been better.

Rowlet...I found Rowlet kinda ehhhhh. I think people overhype Rowlet, but he's not terrible Rowlet wasn't a bad starter and he tended to be reliable in battle when he wasn't sleeping, but I hate that they never did anything with his sleeping gag. That was something they should have done something with, like teaching Rowlet Sleep Talk. The whole battle against Hau was among the worst because of that fakeout loss. He's not the worst though. He was still adorable and his relationship with Meltan/'Melmetal was wholesome.

Grookey...Now HE IS THE WORST. I think giving him to a character that doesn't battle was a mistake. I mean, Grookey has only used a move ONCE and it wasn't even in battle. Grookey is consistently a nuisance and unlike Chespin's antics, Grookey's actually cause problems. Grookey has had no real development, no battles, or any meaningful interactions. Grookey has been proving to be one of the most poorly handled starters in Pokemon anime history.

Overall, Grass starters after Gen 3 became more or so a mixed bag.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Grass starters fell off after Sceptile. Bulbasaur, Bayleaf, and Sceptile were major pokemon on each team. Turtwig started off with a lot of screentime but fell off the moment Ash got Chimchar.

I think Turtwig still got a good amount of focus after Chimchar was caught. It might have been less than before, but I don't think to a huge degree, at least not until after it evolved into Grotle. It still got a decent amount of attention, but losing all the time, especially after it became a Torterra, definitely didn't help.

I don't think that the Grass starters as a whole have been handled that poorly, especially compared to the Water starters, but some of them do leave something to be desired. Bulbasaur was handled fairly well. It had a decent amount of focus, a good personality and was shown to be strong despite not wanting to evolve. I think it should have been put at Professor Oak's Lab a lot sooner. It really didn't do enough to justify being with Ash for most of Johto, but it was fine. Bayleef also worked out pretty well. It had a good amount of focus, a personality to make it stand out and it got to evolve. It really should have become a Meganium, but other than that, I thought it was fine. Sceptile is easily the best Grass starter thus far. It had a consistent amount of focus throughout AG, a cool personality and was easily Ash's ace throughout the series. Defeating Darkrai was a cool moment too, but even before that, Sceptile was easily one of Ash's best Pokemon.

Despite how Torterra was ultimately handled, I think I'd call it more of frustrating than flat out bad. It got a lot of attention as a Turtwig and I still think it had a decent amount of attention as Grotle too. Torterra never getting a proper victory and losing all the time were the major problems. If Torterra had gotten at least a couple of victories, I think people would have been okay with it, or at least I don't think it would have become so infamous.

Snivy had a unique personality, an interesting backstory and was used frequently throughout BW, but it didn't really develop. Not getting any new moves was definitely a poor choice. Not evolving was also a bit of a shame, but that could have been fine if it learned some new moves and they explored more of its past.

Chespin was pretty annoying. It did have some nice moments to make it funny or more endearing, but I never was a fan of its gags and sometimes its behavior could make it come off as pretty unlikable.

I think that Rowlet might be my least favorite of the Grass starters. I didn't mind it at first. It was always a gag Pokemon, but they still showed how strong it could be in battle even with it falling asleep all the time. Once Rowlet couldn't fly over a small hill to grab a berry right in front of its face without falling asleep, the gag officially went too far for me. It spent so much time in SM sleeping away that the writers had to quickly make it useful for the Alola League with new moves. It just didn't make Rowlet's strength feel believable for me and the fake out loss due to it falling asleep was definitely going overboard too. If they had balance out Rowlet's gag and strength throughout the series instead of keeping it mainly as a gag Pokemon, I probably would have been okay with it.

I still haven't seen enough to Grookey to comment on it yet, but I also think that Grass starters are more mixed than flat out poorly handled consistently like the Water starters have been.

 

[PaperSplash]

I think Grass-type starters have always been out of focus to an extent when it comes to the franchise as a whole, likely because they've never been the most popular or marketable compared to Water-type starters and especially Fire-type starters. Sceptile was the closest there was to an exception, but even then it ultimately had to share or give up the spotlight for Blaziken on many occasions. But I do agree that things have only gotten worse for them after Hoenn.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

Yeah, Grass Starters on the whole have been a mixed bag, but on average they do tend to fare better than the Water Starters. It's just that the Fire Starters are almost always given more importance compared to the other two, and even the two exceptions, the Torchic line and the Fennekin line, were still well-handled overall.

 

[Alola]

It's interesting that since Torterra, none of the Grass Starters among the main cast have been allowed to evolve; technically there is still a possibility for Grookey, though. Granted, it isn't like a big precedent for that was established with Bulbasaur's long and significant tenure, but coming off of Bayleef, Sceptile, and Torterra into just primary stage evolutions makes you consider what goes on in the writer's room.

Regarding the question, I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, I do find it deplorable that the recent Starters haven't seen as many notable battles as the first half of the Starters or any evolutions. Bulbasaur, Chikorita, Treecko, and Turtwig were all used quite a bit within their respective sagas (with Bulbasaur even coming back at the end of Treecko's, and Treecko's Turtwig's), with the latter three able to evolve and two of those three reaching their full evolution. All of their evolutions felt earned due to feats we saw them do and the focus they received. In comparison:

• Snivy started out as Ash's Unova tour de force, but became eclipsed by her teammates (it didn't help that Leavanny also shared some of that Grass-type screentime) - eventually, she was reduced to just squabbling with Emolga or being called for random skirmishes rather than actual battles. She had lackluster Gym showings and wasn't allowed to be the star of anything barring her battle with Georgia. And she didn't learn any new moves whatsoever; she effectively only had three moves by the end as Ash stopped using Attract after hearing Clay's opinion on it. She still had notable characterization though, which was consistent up until the end.
• Chespin wasn't owned by Ash and we all know a non-Ash Pokémon will get few if next to nothing regarding substantial battling. I'm struggling to even recall a proper battle Clemont used Chespin in from start to finish aside from the Triple Tag Battle at that camp. Instead, they relegated Chespin to "comic relief" and Clemont's designated Pokémon to have out and about at most given times.
• Rowlet, for all its arguable controversy, actually saw a lot of use, had good amounts of focus, and even got to use more than one Z-Move. Ash used it in both his Trials, half the Grand Trials, the League, and other random battles. Like Chespin, it too was comic relief but actually was allowed to demonstrate its combat effectiveness and species characteristics more often than its predecessors - something we hadn't seen since Turtwig.
• And then we have Grookey, who is not only "comic relief" like the two Grass Starters before it, but a pet at that, who Go doesn't have do anything; it also showed up pretty late into its saga unlike the others, being the last of the Galarian Starters to do so. It's also the second Grass Starter the writers saw not to give to Ash, and has similar beats to Chespin.

Of the recent four, only Rowlet ultimately feels as substantial as the Grass Starters of yore to me. However, where the recent Starters have lacked in one of the main components of the show, they have excelled where their predecessors didn't as much in my opinion - with more characterization and character interactions. Say what we want about Chespin, Rowlet, and Grookey, but they have been the most expressive of the Grass Starters and are usually out of their Poke Balls. They often get to visibly interact with their party members or other CoTD, they were/are present for a lot of the daily ongoings of the group, and they've even been allowed to have at least one personal relationship key to them (such as Chespin and Pancham or Rowlet and Melmetal); Snivy in particular was shown several times as being the Cool Big Sis of her group whenever present, as well as her frenemy relationship with Emolga. I don't think these aspects that the writers have explicitly reinforced should be disregarded, when contemplating how the Grass Starters have been handled. So, I guess while the recent Grass Starters have had shortcomings and areas with something to be desired (Grookey still hasn't actually battled...sigh), they have also had different successes in comparison to their peers. Thus, ultimately I would say no - they haven't fallen off.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

I also forgot to mention the infamous "Water-type curse" that plagued Ash's team for quite some time in that none of his Water-types besides Kingler ever evolved, a trend that wasn't broken until Greninja. Also, the first two Water-type starters Ash had, Squirtle and Totodile, both have the dubious honor of having participated in only one Gym in their respective sagas, and not only was neither Water-type the star, but they just jobbed and had the worst performances out of the Pokemon that participated in those battles. Totodile at least has the excuse that the Pokemon that clobbered him was Whitney's infamous Miltank, but poor Squirtle got literally fried in a single attack by a Fire-type and not even Blaine's ace. Granted, both Pokemon did get some good wins outside of Gym Battles, especially Squirtle, but still.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Chespin wasn't owned by Ash and we all know a non-Ash Pokémon will get few if next to nothing regarding substantial battling. I'm struggling to even recall a proper battle Clemont used Chespin in from start to finish aside from the Triple Tag Battle at that camp. Instead, they relegated Chespin to "comic relief" and Clemont's designated Pokémon to have out and about at most given times.

I can recall at least 4 other times Chespin was used in battle. The first was against Team Rocket in the episode he caught Chespin. Second was against a Delphox in XY015, which saw his ability being activated. Third was a teamup with Pancham against the TRio. Then Clemont used him against Xerosic. Alongside the triple battle in the summer camp arc, I'm sure there's others

 

[Alola]

I can recall at least 4 other times Chespin was used in battle. The first was against Team Rocket in the episode he caught Chespin. Second was against a Delphox in XY015, which saw his ability being activated. Third was a teamup with Pancham against the TRio. Then Clemont used him against Xerosic. Alongside the tripple battle in the summer camp arc, I'm sure there's others

I said a proper battle though, as in a Trainer Battle with a clear victor and the losing Pokémon being incapacitated with swirly eyes/etc. How many of those has Chespin completely done throughout the entire XY saga?

I'll give you Xerosic, but the Delphox fight was cancelled and your other references are Team Rocket battles that every Starter typically does at some point; even then, most Team Rocket battles lack the nuance, as Pokémon can wildly vary in effectiveness (i.e. one episode Pikachu OHKOes Seviper with a single Thunderbolt, while another they're going back and forth), and completeness of a Trainer Battle.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

I said a proper battle though, as in a Trainer Battle with a clear victor and the losing Pokémon being incapacitated with swirly eyes/etc. How many of those has Chespin completely done throughout the entire XY saga?

I'll give you Xerosic, but the Delphox fight was cancelled and your other references are Team Rocket battles that every Starter typically does at some point; even then, most Team Rocket battles lack the nuance, as Pokémon can wildly vary in effectiveness (i.e. one episode Pikachu OHKOes Seviper with a single Thunderbolt, while another they're going back and forth), and completeness of a Trainer Battle.

I don't really agree about the Delphox in XY015. It might have been called off, but it still counts to me. There was enough going on to call it a battle, even if it had no conclusion. But even still. Its not a lot, but that's at least three proper battles that didn't involve the TRio. Its still significantly more than Grookey has ever done. Chespin at least has had a much better showing in terms of his battle skills and usefulness than Grookey ever has.