Do you think that there is too much Kanto nostalgia lately?

[Fig]

The later, but not because the people who came back need more RBY references to keep buying (at least not primarily).

Kanto references have to continue because there's still a massive market of people who MIGHT come back (or buy the game for their sons/daughters/nephews/nieces), and many of them are not quite yet at the age where they have kids old enough to play Pokémon (eg, if you were six-eight back in the original RBY craze, you would be 24-26 now : might have a kid of your own, but he's probably not 6-8 years old.

So Kanto nostalgia will probably continue at least for a while. It might be a very long while

Even if when heavy Kanto-centric marketing ends, you should expect Gen I to continue having a bigger presence than the later Gens (except the newest one). Only one generation (V) had more Pokémon to begin with, and if you set aside legendaries and mythics, I has the most "normal" Pokémon, period.

Even worse, a lot of the later pokémon are basically local counterparts to Gen I mons (the Taillow and Starly lines get hit really hard : they'll always be in the shadow of the far more iconic Pidgey line. Swoobat is not quite as bad (it can occupy a niche of its own thanks to its distinct typing), but is never going to steal Zubat's thunder as Pokémon's defining "Goddamn bat").

 

[RileyXY1]

We don't need RBY references to have good sales. RBY references might drive people away because they are sick and tired of having Kanto shoved in their face (including me). ORAS did just fine and there were no Kanto references whatsoever.

 

[Fig]

Strange. You seem to be very active on a Pokémon forum for someone who's getting driven off from the franchise.

"I'm getting driven off from the franchise" is the Pokémon equivalent of threatening to move to Canada after the elections. Everyone says it, but only a tiny fraction actually do it.

It's not even a consumer loss worth talking about.

 

[Silktree]

ORAS' sales were good, but they received a boost this summer thanks to Go and Sun/Moon not being out yet. So to say that Generation I nostalgia had nothing to do with their success is inaccurate.

 

[Fig]

And on top of that, ORAS' sales were good - but XY's were better, and SM is barely out a month and already closing in on ORAS - it will probably end up with the best sales of the three.

You're also ignoring the fact that it's very likely that some of the people brought back by Kanto references in XY stayed for ORAS.

Plus, the question is not "Can a game do fine without Kanto references". It's "Can a game do better with Kanto references?". If the answer is yes, then there should and will be Kanto references.

Another point worth bringing up - Gen III just got LOTS of focus (in the form of a full-blown remake that's on the 3DS), and Gen IV is going to get an equal amount of focus sometime in Gen VII or VIII when we get the DPPt remakes. It's not like they're forgotten, far from.

 

[Muur]

Too much nostalgia in everything nowadays, not just Pokemon.

But to answer - yes.

 

[Foxwarrior]

It seems to me you don't know much about being a parent (or an uncle/aunt). Giving gifts isn't just about giving the kid whatever they want ; it's about giving the kid something you think they'll like (which isn't the same), and - to a large degree - something you can share with them, something that will help you build your relationship with your son/daughter/nephew/niece.

So picking the game you recognize from when you were a kid, with the critter you recognize from when you were a kid (so you can point at them and say "Oh, that's Vulpix! But why is it white?" or similar is a much better gift than picking a game you don't know the least thing about. Plus, you know the game was fun from back when you were a kid, so you know they might enjoy it.

anyway, isn't the larger part of the pokemon players adults nowadays?
all the kanto "pandering" is aimed to the kids on 90's. and not necessarily the kids nowadays that can't feel nostalgia. A perent that's not in pokemon nowadays will not buy a game to their chuldren measuring how much reference is to Kanto.

aswering the thread, yep, i think is too much. It doesn't bother me to the point of making me feel off about the franchise, but i just think other generations needs love and spotlight too. Megas and Alola forms would be better if there was more pokemons of other regions like Unova and Kalos, for example.

The fact that other games had or will have remakes one day doesn't mean much, since all games have had or will have a remake at some point, but not all received the same level of attention during the years.

Are all these Kanto references necessary? Yes, it's a good marketing strategy, but it can alienate or annoy fans of other generations to the point that some feel neglected.

Especially if one day sequel or another remake for Kanto happens, a good way to remedy it would be to refer, also, to other regions at the same level, but in a way that doesn't decharacterize the new region. Not all at once in the same game, though lol

 

[Almonds]

Plus, the question is not "Can a game do fine without Kanto references". It's "Can a game do better with Kanto references?". If the answer is yes, then there should and will be Kanto references.

Then it comes down to this: GameFreak doesn't care if the new region they worked so hard to design gets forgotten as long as it is Kanto that's boosting the sales, no? That's the impression I'm getting: playing it safe as long as there's a surefire way to rake in the cash. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing, but they can make brilliant games without dragging in Kanto for all eternity. Alola could have been so much more than being "that region with a lot of Kanto".

 

[Fig]

The idea that Alola is not its own region with its own identity and is defined by how much Kanto it has is a sad joke that doesn't stand to the slightest amount of critical thinking.

You're blowing the amount of Kanto references in the game way out of proportion.

 

[Kisu]

I don't get where the idea that your favorite past region deserves to be pandered to coming from.

Once a game is over your not owed anything,if gamefreaks chooses to redo a region,use more or less pokemon from an old region in a new game,or to even mention an old region that's their decision.

When I played thru SM I appreciated "ALL" the references to past games.

I'll be the first to admit Sun/Moon has its flaws,but Kanto pandering? That's just people mad their favorite Pokemon wasn't in the game,or that their region didn't get redone.

The problem wasn't that there was to many Kanto pokemon,the problem was that there was only 300,and just cause you may hate Kanto,or have never played Gen1 is no reason to hate on it during its anniversary.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

There's a pretty big difference between being annoyed at the prevalence of Kanto and preferring another region. Some of the people saying they thought Kanto was brought in too much aren't asking for another region to have more influence at all, but rather expressing that they feel that Kanto was brought in more instead of allowing to Alola region to develop new features.

Personally, as far as wild encounters go, I think it's a mix of both a lot of old Pokemon and a small number of new Pokemon. I got tired of seeing Magikarp, Dugtrio, Zubat, and Tentacool all the time, sure, but I also got tired of seeing Pikipek and Yangoos. A bigger PokeDex would have fixed both of these problems.

Some of the complaints in this thread seem to be overly strong, though, IMO. Including Alolan forms as Kanto Pokemon isn't really fair-they're still new designs with new types and movesets. For all purposes, they're pretty much new Pokemon, and the design origin shouldn't cause that much irritation. And, I'm sorry, but some of the original post's complaints are just flat-out petty. Having one encounter with a Pidgey is pandering? Being given one Pokemon as a gift that happens is pandering?

Also, this might be more my personal opinion, but it seems to me that part of the reason for Kanto tends to have symbolic meanings to it. One character moves from Kanto to Alola, another from Alola to Kanto. Some characters are amazed at Alolan forms, other at Kantoan forms. It's kind of a way to include both a theme of enjoying the diversity of the world and celebrate the wonderful changes since Pokemon's first games-both ideas that Sun and Moon are supposed to be about.

 

[Fig]

Just for the record, excluding the Alola forms (which are not Kanto pokémon, no matter how much some people insist they are - different typings, different movesets, different stats, different looks, that's just not the same pokémon anymore), the proportion of Gen I pokémon in the Alola dex is 23.5%. Which is essentially the same as what it was in Hoenn (21.8%) and Platinum-Sinnoh (21%).

 

[SirOni]

anyway, isn't the larger part of the pokemon players adults nowadays?

No, the majority of Pokemon players is, as it has always been, children. This is something that for some of us it's very important to remember. Internet spaces like these forums very much showcase the concept of the vocal minority.

Kanto references are usually there for the older fans who enjoy callbacks to the series' past and for the returning fans who experienced Pokemon during its peaks of popularity. But references to older regions and games are also there to show the younger fans how big the world of Pokemon really is and how much more there is for them to experience if they want more of this series.

 

[RileyXY1]

Just for the record, excluding the Alola forms (which are not Kanto pokémon, no matter how much some people insist they are - different typings, different movesets, different stats, different looks, that's just not the same pokémon anymore), the proportion of Gen I pokémon in the Alola dex is 23.5%. Which is essentially the same as what it was in Hoenn (21.8%) and Platinum-Sinnoh (21%).

Well, there's more Kanto mons than new Pokemon (counting Alola Forms as Kanto Pokemon). They're also a lot more common.

 

[Fig]

Counting Alola form as Kanto pokémon is pure and simple bullshit.

The only thing Alolan Ninetales and Ninetales have in common is a name. On every other level, they're different Pokémon - different types, different abilities, different moves, different look.

In any previous generation, they'd have just changed the name, and everyone would agree it's a brand new pokémon despite being clearly a regional replacement for one of the Kanto mon (eg, Sinnoh Pidgey/Starly, or Unova Zubat/Swoobat).

 

[Almonds]

The idea that Alola is not its own region with its own identity and is defined by how much Kanto it has is a sad joke that doesn't stand to the slightest amount of critical thinking.

You're blowing the amount of Kanto references in the game way out of proportion.

I wasn't talking about the actual proportion of Kanto references. It's that the Kanto references stood out a lot more to me enough to shadow over other aspects of the games. It's how the references over the course of the journey affects the player, regardless of actual numbers. It all comes down to opinion. Just because the actual numbers indicate there's probably less Kanto than it looks like on the surface, doesn't mean players should never complain about the games including "too much Kanto". It's about how the references had an impact on the player - a subjective thing. If the Kanto references stood out more than Alola's unique attractiveness to players over the course of the game, if that's what the players felt, then there's no reason it can't be a valid opinion. And if a lot of players felt that way... then it's a problem.

This goes back to the way they distribute the references across the story and how they balance them.. Maybe they should have reduced the number of Rattatas. Maybe they should have changed the encounter rate and make Alolan natives way more common than mons from other regions. Maybe they shouldn't have included Diglett Cave or the Nugget Bridge. Maybe there should have been a different mon for synchronize instead of all the Abras. Maybe they should have started with a bigger dex for diversity, 500 mons perhaps, and include more new pokemon.

 

[Fig]

500 mons in a regional dex is sheer insanity.

 

[Morningstar]

My points:

• I agree with Evil Figment that even with the Kanto references. Alola was very much its own thing, with its own characters, lore and atmosphere. Its not Kanto with a tropical paint job.
  
• I also agree that 500 for a regional dex is a ridiculous concept. But I also think that there should be 500 Pokemon to catch in the game regardless. It feels like Sun and Moon have the lowest amount of "foreign" (as in not in the national dex) pokemon at 84 total pokemon (over 28 3 stage lines).

With that said, I want to ask for a comparison. Game Freak once went bold and deciced to make a series of pokemon games where the regional Pokedex was 100% original. No returning pokemon until after the League, and with 150 or so new pokemon, with references to preceding generations being fewer or in less blatant methods. For this reason, I wan tto ask, How many units did Black and White move compared to Sun and Moon?

 

[Robo-Floatzel]

Yes, I believe there is far too much pandering to Kanto and Gen 1 lately, and it just feels like all the other generations are being ignored. This is especially true for anyone who didn't grow up with Gen 1 during it's original release such as me. I came into the franchise late in Gen 2 and most of my childhood was in Gen 3, so I only got to experience Gen 1 via a used copy of Yellow, FR/LG getting released, and reruns of the first season of the anime on Cartoon Network. I didn't grow up with Gen 1 during it's original release, so as someone who grew up primarily with the later generations over the earlier generations, I feel like I'm being insulted.

I mean, yes it's the 20th anniversary of the franchise, but if anything I feel like it should be a celebration of ALL generations old and new, not strictly the first one, and when the 10th and 15th anniversaries of the franchise came and went, they celebrated all generations equally, not strictly put favoritism on Gen 1 ONLY and pretend that all generations afterwards never happened, which really annoyed me this year, ESPECIALLY with Pokemon Go. I mean really, most of my favorite Pokemon are from Gen 4 (Luxray, Floatzel, Lucario, Weavile) and Gen 5 (Serperior, Excadrill, Zoroark, Mienshao), and it just feels so annoying that the Pokemon I like from the later generations are treated as if they don't even exist... well, not unless you're a base form starter, legendary, electric rodent, Lucario or Greninja, because if you're a Pokemon from after Gen 1 and you're not one of those, you basically don't exist.

This was rather annoying in Gen 6, but I felt it was even MORE annoying in Gen 7, especially since there are more Kanto Pokemon in the dex than any other generation, even Alola's own native flora and fauna is outnumbered by Kanto. Even Kalos was better at not letting Kanto Pokemon be too abundant because there were Pokemon from every generation available and there wasn't one generation that had more than any others, unlike Alola which lets Gen 1 take over the region. There's only like... ONE Alola form I even genuinely like, which is Alolan Vulpix/Ninetales. I mean, I appreciate them having regional variants, but the fact they're ALL Gen 1 Pokemon just annoys the hell out of me, since they never did this with Mega Evolutions in Gen 6, so why do this with Gen 7? I really hope that if this concept continues that they make regional variants of other gen Pokemon than strictly Gen 1 Pokemon.

If anything, Kanto has honestly grown into being my LEAST favorite region and Gen 1 my LEAST favorite generation, and it's primarily due to how overexposed it is, that and I honestly find Kanto to be a BORING region and the Gen 1 games to be extremely archaic (especially with all the glitches), being that I feel it's the generation that has aged the worst, and with all the pandering to Kanto with the franchise treating it as if it's some kind of sacred holy land, it makes Gen 1 look worse compared to the later generations rather than better.

I used to like Gen 1 a lot even though I didn't grow up with it during it's original release, and there are still some things I like about it, but honestly, I just feel like the treatment it's receiving needs to end and that other generations should have room to breathe, especially if Gen 4 remakes are to be the next games we're getting.

My points:

• I agree with Evil Figment that even with the Kanto references. Alola was very much its own thing, with its own characters, lore and atmosphere. Its not Kanto with a tropical paint job.
  
• I also agree that 500 for a regional dex is a ridiculous concept. But I also think that there should be 500 Pokemon to catch in the game regardless. It feels like Sun and Moon have the lowest amount of "foreign" (as in not in the national dex) at 84 total pokemon (over 28 3 stage lines).

With that said, I want to ask for a comparison. Game Freak once went bold and deciced to make a series of pokemon games where the regional Pokedex was 100% original. No returning pokemon until after the League, and with 150 or so new pokemon, with references to preceding generations being fewer or in less blatant methods. For this reason, I wan tto ask, How many units did Black and White move compared to Sun and Moon?

Agreed wholeheartedly with this. Gen 7 just felt so empty with only 300 or so Pokemon available, which is less than what Gen 6 had. Also, that's the one thing I liked about Gen 5 and Unova was that they wanted there to be little to no references to older generations and wanted a fresh start, since even though I hated the decision at first, it gave me a ton of new favorites to work with such as Serperior and Mienshao, and if anything, Gen 5 is pretty much my favorite generation when it comes to new Pokemon introduced. I really wish Game Freak did that again, but at this point I feel like we're going to have more generations where older Pokemon are prioritized over newer ones, especially if they're from Gen 1 in particular.

 

[Fig]

And half the rest of the fandom hated it because so many classic pokémon were kept out of it.

Personally, I loved it, and I loved the forms too.