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Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

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Except it was her fault. Had she understood him all of that would have never happened.

Had she allowed him to give up on the battle like he wanted? Fostering in the process Doryuuzu's feeling of weakness and inadequacy? That would have really been her fault. That would have portrayed her in a negative light, that would have then caused a problem, like Doryuuzu having no confidence and not wanting to battle. That would have forced Iris to take a look at herself and realize she should have believe in him in the first place, allowing both her and Doryuuzu to grow alongside one another... In short, that would have been developement. Instead we have 100% of the problem solely on Doryuuzu's shoulder, Iris being shown as capable, skillful, knowledgeable, caring, encouraging, but misunderstood by her pokémon, then she apologizes for doing nothing wrong, prompting her pokémon to realize she was right all along. In short, what we had was uninteresting and held no developement for Iris.
 
In the BW036 flashback, she is shown trying, and she later states in present times that she tried to encourage Doryuuzu many times over the years. The writers went out of their way to disprove your statement.

She never tried to talk her, just want to "encourage" him by forced him to battle, like what happened in BW09...

Her Drilburr mainly being the cause of the issue. Are we to believe that she had trained that Pokemon any longer Paul for instance trained some of his Pokemon?

Yes. Remember her age?
 
Nowhere near as much as they tried with Dawn but I don't think they're trying and failing. I think they're deliberately not trying because they intended to go back to the Kanto dynamic for Gen 5, and that means less focus on the sidekicks and more focus on Ash.
I personally, love this kind of dynamic the most. I just think it works the best (well in terms of my enjoyment anyway) >.>
 
The problem is that so many fans got used to Dawn being focused on so much, that when Iris came along and she was merely a sidekick and not a co-star it caused disappointment among some of the fandom. I, personally, am in the part of the fandom that loves Iris and thinks she's a great character for who she is. I really enjoy her personality, her Pokemon, and how she interacts with Ash, Cilan and all the other characters. I'm very happy with the way things are and aside from maybe a bit more focus, I couldn't ask the writers for anything better.
 
The problem is that so many fans got used to Dawn being focused on so much, that when Iris came along and she was merely a sidekick and not a co-star it caused disappointment among some of the fandom.

For all the times I've seen this reason cited, I've not seen one person who dislikes Iris bring this up when discussing her. It's definitely not the case with me; if Iris had the screentime and focus that Dawn had, I don't think I would dislike her any less than I do now. In fact, I suspect I'd dislike her even more given that I don't find her personality charming or cute in the least.

It is not the co-star/sidekick shift that makes anyone dislike Iris. Even sidekicks in this series normally get better, more sensible development than what we're getting with Iris now. Max was probably the best example of a sidekick with a limited role, but he still had endearing traits along with annoying ones, he did get called out on for hypocrisy, whenever he was wrong, or whenever he misjudged Ash, and Max had to own up for mistakes he made due to his personality flaws. And he wasn't even a trainer. Max had to endure these things well within his duration of 30-40 episodes for certain, and since BW's pace is more akin to Hoenn's/Kanto's than any other series, I'd say it's a fair analogy to make here. So it's not that we were too used to a female co-star that Iris annoys some of us; it's that we were too used to any character in this series, be they star, co-star, sidekick, secondary recurring, or rival, having cohesive character development that both makes sense and helps the viewer understand the character better.

All of Iris' focused episodes only highlight how much "better" she is than we initially perceived, which makes her behavior in the early episodes even harder to understand. Any problem Iris has, the fault is eventually shown to be on anyone other than herself, even if she blames herself for it. Her attitude with Ash is almost always uncalled for, and she conveniently gets away with it because Ash won't stoop to her level. I can recall maybe two times she's "called out" on her hypocrisy or unwarranted behavior, and both time were just for the sake of a two-second gag that bears no effect on the story or her character, and her general behavior remains unchanged. The series glorifies things like Iris' "slow-but-steady pace", but never really reference it even though it wouldn't take that much time out of any episode (many of which have a good percentage of filler that could be axed without affecting the episode at all) to do so and remind the audience that she's dedicated and responsible.

The show could've made a plot point out of Iris not following through with her vows so she could have an easily-relatable character flaw that could be addressed so Iris can better herself, but instead they contradict it and decide to make Iris even more senselessly experienced for the weakest reason I ever heard (playing with the woodland creatures makes you capable of a 99-victory winning streak? riiiiight), make the Pokemon solely responsible for the incompatibility issues with Iris even though she rarely (if ever) shows concern, care, or persistence in trying to work things out like any other main character would've done.

But I think Iris being so "different" from other main characters is the main problem, since that's the main problem with the BW series in general: it's only being different for the sake of being different. They tried to fix what wasn't broken in previous series and that results in things not making a lot of sense. I could go on forever about that, but for here, the bottom line is that based on what I've seen and read, people don't dislike Iris because she's a side-kick - they dislike her because she's a poorly-conceived, badly-written and badly-developed character.

And really, I think people who say the writers are doing absolutely everything right with Iris aren't being honest with themselves. There are characters in Pokemon I love to death, but I'd never say that any of them were handled perfectly by the writers. One way or another, every character's had a missed opportunity the writers never took advantage of or the writers take a route with a character that they could've done a better job with. So no, my bias against Iris has nothing to do with my feelings about that; I just think it's unnecessary, dishonest praise.
 
Since i wasnt given chance to reply:

Except it wasn't her fault. Doryuuzu misunderstood her, that's why it retreated back in its shell. Iris is apologizing because she hadn't figure out that... Doryuuzu misunderstood her caring and encouraging for carelessness. But, in the end, was she portrayed as being wrong? No and that's the problem. Once, she apologizes for doing absolutely nothing wrong, Doryuuzu then realizes she cared all along and... gets back to training as she told him to do before, proving her right in the end.

Doryuuzu developed, as he realizes that Iris had cared all along and that it should trust its trainer in fighting stronger opponents, but nothing about Iris's methods or core characteristics are shaken in that episode.

And didnt Iris admitted how it was her own fault of not understanding Excadrill feelings?
Didnt she managed to regain confidence of her pokemon back?

Before this incident Iris didnt realized what was real problem behind her pokemon which is indeed a flaw because she was oblivious to it not trying to break through shell under which mole was hiding just expecting from him to start listening to her.
You said how passive approach she is using when training and developing her own pokmon is not a flaw but flashbacks from past and hesitation she showed when battling with Axew are more nus-product of her own character fearing that something might go wrong ending up with another disobedient pokenmon than it was truly because she "didnt wanted that baby pookemon gets hurt".Later battles with Axew in anime disproves argument of this happening because Axew was too young.

Perhaps im going too deep when analyzing this but its needed to take in account how Iris also used to criticize Ash because of his mistakes,same mistakes she used to do in past being reckless and stubborn with his actions reminding her of herself and what happened in past.

Speaking of Emolga i cant say i entirely agree with argument how all problems regarding her disobedience are coming from her personality because with more authoritative trainer those imperfections would be managed to put under control.
You could say problem lies in Emolga but to some extent Iris is responsible for this as well because of not being tough enough to put her own pokemon under control not understanding how to resolve current problem with passive approach she is using being flaw in this case because of not being determinative enough.

Had she allowed him to give up on the battle like he wanted? Fostering in the process Doryuuzu's feeling of weakness and inadequacy? That would have really been her fault. That would have portrayed her in a negative light, that would have then caused a problem, like Doryuuzu having no confidence and not wanting to battle.

Character doesnt always need to be portrayed in negative light to point out his flaws.Character not being able to understand what he did wrong counts as his own flaw being ignorant and oblivious to his mistakes.

In short, what we had was uninteresting and held no developement for Iris.

I dont know about you but many people(including myself)enjoyed in this episode with Iris breakdown and bond she established with Excadrill making people feeling sympathy for her.

If that was writers intention i must say they did pretty good job.

For all the times I've seen this reason cited, I've not seen one person who dislikes Iris bring this up when discussing her. It's definitely not the case with me; if Iris had the screentime and focus that Dawn had, I don't think I would dislike her any less than I do now. In fact, I suspect I'd dislike her even more given that I don't find her personality charming or cute in the least.

But Insanish Danish brings up valid and accurate point.Perhaps this may be not present very often in here but i encountered good chunk pf people who dislike Iris only because she has smaller role than Dawn did viewing her because of that as useless and pointless..

Bulbagarden is just one forum.

And really, I think people who say the writers are doing absolutely everything right with Iris aren't being honest with themselves. There are characters in Pokemon I love to death, but I'd never say that any of them were handled perfectly by the writers.

Ultimate problem in here is that quality can be often subjective with something which someone may recognize as "poor writing"others might view as "job being done good".

Personally i like Iris personality and interacting she brings to group,i like amount of focus she receives and she got some development contrary to popular belief(more than i can say for Dento whose situation is alarming).
What i view as mistake from writers side is fact of everything happening slowly sometimes not being consistent enough with their intentions.
 
Just because Iris doesn't get called out on things, doesn't mean it's automatically not a flaw anymore. If I see someone wearing an ugly outfit, but don't tell them that it's ugly, it's not suddenly a glamorous one.

IIRC, Cilan called Iris out on her "you're such a kid" thing anyway. Does she have to be called out every time she says it? Iris may not have a lot of flaws to overcome, but she does have a couple of them. I don't get why Iris has to have a lot of problems anyways, this is Ash's journey, not hers. Ash is the main character; the writers obviously don't want to focus on Iris and Cilan too much so that it detracts from Ash's story.

I see Iris and Cilan as both being characters meant for entertainment purposes, but in different ways. Cilan is more carefree, yet knowledgeable, and Iris is more sassy and naive. When I look at it this way, I think when Iris is given episodes like BW036, it adds depth to her character, rather than making her somehow look bad to some of you.

Honestly, when I look at it, I think the writers are doing decently with her overall. At some points, I did feel kind of blah about her, and still somewhat do, but lately, I've grown to like her inch by inch as the episodes go along. There are a lot of qualities about her that I like, such as how in-tune with nature she is. I really don't see Iris as being flawless at all, and she still has a lot of progressing to do as a character. If you all focus too much on her not-so-great points, of course she's going to come off as incredibly lackluster. If you look at her as a whole, you'd see that she really isn't as bad as you think.
 
But Insanish Danish brings up valid and accurate point.Perhaps this may be not present very often in here but i encountered good chunk pf people who dislike Iris only because she has smaller role than Dawn did viewing her because of that as useless and pointless..

Bulbagarden is just one forum.

That's nice, but I was only referring to this forum, as I don't keep track of, nor care of what goes on in other forums. And since as far as this forum is concerned I can think of only one person who wanted Iris to have more screentime and wasn't even that vocal about it; the rest of us here have never ever ever felt this way, we've stated several times over why that isn't the case, hence the point is null and void as far as this forum is concerned.



Ultimate problem in here is that quality can be often subjective with something which someone may recognize as "poor writing"others might view as "job being done good".

Oh boy, this again. Try looking at it this way, though: subjective views or not, perfection in this context is an impossibility. That is what my point is; you can praise the writing and whatnot all you like, but calling it perfect and saying the writers "can do no wrong" is just an outright lie no matter how biased or impartial you are, because nobody is perfect. Like I said, even with my favorite characters, I'd never go as far to say "there's absolutely nothing these writers can do wrong for this character and everything they create is absolutely flawless" because honestly, they can do wrong and nobody is flawless.

Personally i like Iris personality and interacting she brings to group,i like amount of focus she receives and she got some development contrary to popular belief(more than i can say for Dento whose situation is alarming).

And guess what, Cilan has absolutely nothing to do with this topic. All of this scapegoating of him does absolutely nothing for any aspect of this discussion. If you want to roast the guy and cry "Sue!" at Cilan, do that on his thread. Not here. It's pointless.

Just because Iris doesn't get called out on things, doesn't mean it's automatically not a flaw anymore.

No one's saying that the flaw ceases to be a flaw. It's that the flaw is not treated as a flaw, and therefore what weight does the flaw hold when it isn't acknowledged in its own canon?

IIRC, Cilan called Iris out on her "you're such a kid" thing anyway. Does she have to be called out every time she says it?

Yeah, that was the two-second inconsequential gag that I mentioned earlier. Even if she does get called out on it, nothing changes. It lasts all of a few seconds and then gets completely ignored afterwards. She doesn't have to be called out every time, no, but when she REALLY gives Ash shit that he doesn't deserve (like insulting him for not knowing what Battle Clubs are since they don't exist in his region or holding up his end of a bet), it would be nice to see Iris not get away with that kind of rude behavior all the time. Like I said, main characters before BW who had these kinds of attitudes were often called out on and/or scolded, and rightfully so. Even if Iris isn't malicious, she really overdid the shtick early on in the series and it honestly did nothing but eat up time that could've been used for something more useful and worthwhile.

Iris may not have a lot of flaws to overcome, but she does have a couple of them. I don't get why Iris has to have a lot of problems anyways, this is Ash's journey, not hers. Ash is the main character; the writers obviously don't want to focus on Iris and Cilan too much so that it detracts from Ash's story.

I suppose you're new to this, because we've explained dozens of times that we don't want Iris getting the kind of exposure that Dawn had and the amount of screentime she gets is just fine. It's how they use the time that I have a problem with; being a sidekick is no excuse to be lazy with character development, especially when the writers establish a major subplot for Iris and completely and totally half-ass it after dragging it out for half a year with barely any mention of it since it was established.

And really, Iris has more than just a "couple" of flaws, IMO. But like I said, most of her flaws aren't even recognized as such in the show even if the viewers can see the flaws plain as day.

I see Iris and Cilan as both being characters meant for entertainment purposes, but in different ways. Cilan is more carefree, yet knowledgeable, and Iris is more sassy and naive. When I look at it this way, I think when Iris is given episodes like BW036, it adds depth to her character, rather than making her somehow look bad to some of you.

Cilan entertains me; he's doing just fine in his role, so I have no issues with him. Iris, on the other hand, does not entertain me in the least. Her bickering with Ash is repetitive, annoying, and a chore to sit through. That's how I feel about it, anyway. I dislike her personality and while the flaws she has now should in theory help her grow to be more well-rounded by the end, with every passing episode that focuses on her, she only gets more inconsistent, unjustified, and harder to like. And in episodes that don't focus on Iris, she's often standing there in the background and on occasion spouting negative remarks that are usually uncalled for. There've been plenty of opportunities that passed that could've fleshed Iris out a little more in subtle ways, but instead they just leave her there as background fodder. Sure, you can say that's because she's a sidekick, except Cilan tends to be much more involved and proactive even when the episodes don't focus on him.

Yes, I'm sure this'll be torn to bits with "subjective blah blah blah" but the point is that our disdain for the character and the writers who we believe are mishandling her is not unfounded, it is not blind hatred and rage, it is not a "warped point of view", and it's not wrong. There is no "right" or "wrong" here.

If you all focus too much on her not-so-great points, of course she's going to come off as incredibly lackluster. If you look at her as a whole, you'd see that she really isn't as bad as you think.

Yeah. Problem is, I've honestly tried to think about aspects of Iris that I like - that appeal to me. And you know what? I can't think of one single thing. Not one trait, detail, or reason so far shines out to me and that's not me just focusing on the negative traits. I really cannot see a reason to like her. And for as long as these kinds of debates have transpired, not one person here has even tried bringing up a good point that is unique to her (because saying "she likes her friends" or "she cares about her Pokemon" are not unique good traits; those are prerequisite traits for every main character in this show).
 
Yeah, I think it's enough.

Her role might be different, but it's not like she's doing nothing at all.
 
That's nice, but I was only referring to this forum, as I don't keep track of, nor care of what goes on in other forums. And since as far as this forum is concerned I can think of only one person who wanted Iris to have more screentime and wasn't even that vocal about it; the rest of us here have never ever ever felt this way, we've stated several times over why that isn't the case, hence the point is null and void as far as this forum is concerned.

I guess you werent too much around here when it was revealed how female co-star is going to be replaced with sidekick.I can think of at least 10 fans in here who are annoyed by this.

Oh boy, this again. Try looking at it this way, though: subjective views or not, perfection in this context is an impossibility. That is what my point is; you can praise the writing and whatnot all you like, but calling it perfect and saying the writers "can do no wrong" is just an outright lie no matter how biased or impartial you are, because nobody is perfect. Like I said, even with my favorite characters, I'd never go as far to say "there's absolutely nothing these writers can do wrong for this character and everything they create is absolutely flawless" because honestly, they can do wrong and nobody is flawless.

I already acknowledged what i see as poor writing from writers side being that they are taking Iris development at speed of nail pace not being consistent with her plots or fears.one of examples is her supposed fear from ice types just to act perfectly normal not being bothered with it when she battled Langley.

What i dont agree with and dont see as "bad writing"is treatment of Iris character so far getting solid amount of focus with writers delivering nice character development regarding Excadrill by exploring more on her past,having Iris acknowledge her mistake and flaw of being oblivious to her own pokemon feelings actually admitting what she was doing wrong which ignite change in character.
Not to extent as we would like but it was step forward nonetheless along with restoring confidence from her pokemon back.

Some people will continue to nitpick how way in which writers executed this was poorly but i dont agree with them with there being a small line between good and bad writing.
Judging by reactions of fandom at least in here it seems writers got what they intended by having people starting to care more for character.

No one's saying that the flaw ceases to be a flaw. It's that the flaw is not treated as a flaw, and therefore what weight does the flaw hold when it isn't acknowledged in its own canon?

Iris passive attitude toward training her pokemon was portrayed as flaw since her pokemon slowly develop having unstable team at moment.For problems which are being caused by pokemon trainer is on some part responsible for their actions too like its case with Emolga.

Yeah. Problem is, I've honestly tried to think about aspects of Iris that I like - that appeal to me. And you know what? I can't think of one single thing. Not one trait, detail, or reason so far shines out to me and that's not me just focusing on the negative traits. I really cannot see a reason to like her.[/QUUOTE]

Even if everything in Iris story gets treated perfectly if someone doesnt find Iris personality and plots in her story entertaining that cannot be helped.
Iris character is already established and while she will change to some extent through development her main traits which define her(core)will stay intact.

Same thing happened with previous girls like Misty,May or Dawn.They became more mature changing abit but majority of main traits which defined their characters from start are kept.

And for as long as these kinds of debates have transpired, not one person here has even tried bringing up a good point that is unique to her (because saying "she likes her friends" or "she cares about her Pokemon" are not unique good traits; those are prerequisite traits for every main character in this show).

Unique traits pertaining to her character is that she is a bit wild liking to climb on trees,tends to be invasive with pokemon being overly hyperactive.

Another unique trait is that she has her own tempo when developing dragons learning what is best way to train them.
 
No one's saying that the flaw ceases to be a flaw. It's that the flaw is not treated as a flaw, and therefore what weight does the flaw hold when it isn't acknowledged in its own canon?

I'm not sure which flaw we're actually referring to, but in the case of Excadrill, I'm pretty sure that was treated as a flaw. No, it wasn't just Excadrill's problem, it was Iris too, and you are in denial if you say otherwise. You personally may have not said this (I dunno, I never really see your posts) but I know some people have said that Excadrill's issues were solely due to its own issues. Iris wasn't understanding her Pokemon well enough, which is why it secluded itself from her. That was definitely addressed by Iris herself in the show, so I don't see how that isn't a flaw, but whatever.

Yeah, that was the two-second inconsequential gag that I mentioned earlier. Even if she does get called out on it, nothing changes. It lasts all of a few seconds and then gets completely ignored afterwards. She doesn't have to be called out every time, no, but when she REALLY gives Ash shit that he doesn't deserve (like insulting him for not knowing what Battle Clubs are since they don't exist in his region or holding up his end of a bet), it would be nice to see Iris not get away with that kind of rude behavior all the time. Like I said, main characters before BW who had these kinds of attitudes were often called out on and/or scolded, and rightfully so. Even if Iris isn't malicious, she really overdid the shtick early on in the series and it honestly did nothing but eat up time that could've been used for something more useful and worthwhile.

Because it takes so long to say "you're such a kid." I don't really care for the phrase either, but I don't see why a big deal is being made out of it. Granted, it did annoy me a little at first, but friends call each other names (playfully) all the time. And the only main character I can think of that has a personality/attitude similar to Iris' is Misty. None of the other main characters, as far as I know, ever called Ash names on a regular basis. Nor do I remember any of them being scolded numerous times either, at least in regards to their personality, besides Brock. But that's getting off-topic.

I suppose you're new to this, because we've explained dozens of times that we don't want Iris getting the kind of exposure that Dawn had and the amount of screentime she gets is just fine. It's how they use the time that I have a problem with; being a sidekick is no excuse to be lazy with character development, especially when the writers establish a major subplot for Iris and completely and totally half-ass it after dragging it out for half a year with barely any mention of it since it was established.

The Excadrill thing should've been handled better, I agree, but I don't think Iris' development is that lazy. I honestly can't help but think you are comparing her to Dawn and May, at least subconciously, because none of the sidekicks were ever really developed that much. Iris has no goal besides evolving Axew and becoming a Dragon Master, which it's not clear as to what that even means. Maybe you should explain how exactly Iris should be developed then, because right now, it just seems to me like you are just bitter than she's even on the show in the first place.

And really, Iris has more than just a "couple" of flaws, IMO. But like I said, most of her flaws aren't even recognized as such in the show even if the viewers can see the flaws plain as day.

If the viewers can see it plain as day, then why does it take it being called out on for you to be content? Is Iris supposed to be punished before you can relate to her? Also, what exactly is Iris supposed to learn from somebody telling her that calling someone a kid is mean? All that will really happen is that she won't say it anymore. That's not much development at all in my eyes.

Cilan entertains me; he's doing just fine in his role, so I have no issues with him. Iris, on the other hand, does not entertain me in the least. Her bickering with Ash is repetitive, annoying, and a chore to sit through. That's how I feel about it, anyway. I dislike her personality and while the flaws she has now should in theory help her grow to be more well-rounded by the end, with every passing episode that focuses on her, she only gets more inconsistent, unjustified, and harder to like. And in episodes that don't focus on Iris, she's often standing there in the background and on occasion spouting negative remarks that are usually uncalled for. There've been plenty of opportunities that passed that could've fleshed Iris out a little more in subtle ways, but instead they just leave her there as background fodder. Sure, you can say that's because she's a sidekick, except Cilan tends to be much more involved and proactive even when the episodes don't focus on him.

First off, her and Ash hardly ever bicker. And I think Cilan is more involved because the writers are making a point that they don't want him to be another Brock. That should be obvious though.

Yes, I'm sure this'll be torn to bits with "subjective blah blah blah" buit the point is that our disdain for the character and the writers who we believe are mishandling her is not unfounded, it is not blind hatred and rage, it is not a "warped point of view", and it's not wrong. There is no "right" or "wrong" here.

That's cool and all, but it seems there's some unnecessary double standards between Cilan and Iris, who I feel are meant to fulfill almost the same purposes: entertainment. If you don't find Iris entertaining, great, but it's not fair that one thing can work for Cilan but not Iris.

Yeah. Problem is, I've honestly tried to think about aspects of Iris that I like - that appeal to me. And you know what? I can't think of one single thing. Not one trait, detail, or reason so far shines out to me and that's not me just focusing on the negative traits. I really cannot see a reason to like her. And for as long as these kinds of debates have transpired, not one person here has even tried bringing up a good point that is unique to her (because saying "she likes her friends" or "she cares about her Pokemon" are not unique good traits; those are prerequisite traits for every main character in this show).

You aren't thinking hard enough then. Iris enjoys nature and isn't afraid to get her hands dirty. Some people would find that to be an appealing and unique trait (for girls on this show, at least) but I suppose you don't. The writers can't please everybody though, so maybe she will never be likable to some. Oh well.
 
It is not the co-star/sidekick shift that makes anyone dislike Iris. Even sidekicks in this series normally get better, more sensible development than what we're getting with Iris now. Max was probably the best example of a sidekick with a limited role, but he still had endearing traits along with annoying ones, he did get called out on for hypocrisy, whenever he was wrong, or whenever he misjudged Ash, and Max had to own up for mistakes he made due to his personality flaws. And he wasn't even a trainer. Max had to endure these things well within his duration of 30-40 episodes for certain, and since BW's pace is more akin to Hoenn's/Kanto's than any other series, I'd say it's a fair analogy to make here. So it's not that we were too used to a female co-star that Iris annoys some of us; it's that we were too used to any character in this series, be they star, co-star, sidekick, secondary recurring, or rival, having cohesive character development that both makes sense and helps the viewer understand the character better.

Exactly. The difference between sidekick and co-star is the number of episodes that focus on them, but that number has ultimately no bearing on what role the writers want the characters to play. Co-star or sidekick, if the writers gear a character towards building a pathos, make an emotional appeal to the audience make them feel as they feel, make them care when they care, which is what they're attempting and failing to do with Iris, they need ultimately to make the character vulnerable and relatable so that he/she's easy to understand and easy to identify with. But in Iris's case, they're trying to make us feel about a character who's already very strong, already very knowledgeable, already possess the skills necessary for the goal she's pursuing and saddled with other characters's problems that she solves by showing them how selfless and caring she is... It's not relatable. I don't identify or feel compelled to care about little Miss can do no wrong.

All of Iris' focused episodes only highlight how much "better" she is than we initially perceived, which makes her behavior in the early episodes even harder to understand. Any problem Iris has, the fault is eventually shown to be on anyone other than herself, even if she blames herself for it.

Exactly. That Iris takes the blame on herself in BW036 means in no way that the problem stems from her, since nobody in canon (no, not Dento) portrayed this as a problem that stemmed from Iris. The "I'm sorry I didn't understand that you read my encouragements as carelessness Doryuuzu, cause see, I was too busy cheering you on, caring about your well being and trying to get us to train together again," speech was one of the most glaring example of broken aesop and character derailment that has ever been seen in the anime. The worst part is the rest of the episode is a glaring "Iris was right all along" fest, with Doryuuzu realizing he was wrong and that Iris had cared about him all along and had done nothing wrong. That she was right about getting back to training, using long range attacks and that he shouldn't give up no matter how strong the opponent is. To cap it all off, the writers had Iris call Doryuuzu a kid at the end of the episode because he read her wrong. There was no developpement here for Iris, she did nothing wrong then, she was proven right in the end, and still was portrayed as selflessly taking on the blame because she such a pure radiant saint.

But I think Iris being so "different" from other main characters is the main problem, since that's the main problem with the BW series in general: it's only being different for the sake of being different. They tried to fix what wasn't broken in previous series and that results in things not making a lot of sense. I could go on forever about that, but for here, the bottom line is that based on what I've seen and read, people don't dislike Iris because she's a side-kick - they dislike her because she's a poorly-conceived, badly-written and badly-developed character.

Precisely. I made the point above, but the amount of broken aesops that make no sense, the number of ideals that the writers backtracked on when it comes to Iris, and BW in general is staggering, and that there's no rhyme or reason to this just heightens the feelings that Iris is dangerously close to being a Mary Sue, since she can get away with everything that would have been portrayed in a negative light or cost other characters, and that Best Wishes as a whole is just being different for the sake of being different, as opposed to have a cohesive storyline and a point to make.
 
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Sheesh. The seventh circle of hell is more of an inviting place than this topic.

I'm not sure which flaw we're actually referring to, but in the case of Excadrill, I'm pretty sure that was treated as a flaw. No, it wasn't just Excadrill's problem, it was Iris too, and you are in denial if you say otherwise.

Hellion just covered that whole scenario nice and good for me, so refer to that, since that's what I'm going with. If you want to interpret that as being in denial, go right ahead. I'm suited just fine to debating without throwing direct, baseless accusations at people.


Because it takes so long to say "you're such a kid." I don't really care for the phrase either, but I don't see why a big deal is being made out of it.

Considering she abused the phrase ad nauseum for a good chunk of the early episodes and throwing in all of the pointless bickering Ash and Iris did that went absolutely nowhere and amounted to nothing, then yeah. The time adds up. Plus, it's not a crime to find it terribly annoying and the opposite of entertaining. This was also a huge chunk of Iris' first impression, which is a pretty big deal for any new character. Making a poor first impression means - for me at least - that it'll be harder to make up for it as the series progresses, especially if they're stunting character development along the way.

The Excadrill thing should've been handled better, I agree, but I don't think Iris' development is that lazy. I honestly can't help but think you are comparing her to Dawn and May, at least subconciously, because none of the sidekicks were ever really developed that much.

The Excadrill thing was the epitome of lazy writing. Iris and Emolga was handled lazily. Iris had this Dragon Master goal all along and since the writers were too lazy to ever throw hints/foreshadowing out before it was revealed after thirty episodes in, it felt like it came right out of left field and if it wasn't a well-known fact that Iris is a Dragon-type Gym Leader in the games, then it would've had even more of a random WTF effect. Also, I'm not comparing her to Dawn and May; I've compared her to the typical execution of the development of Ash's traveling partners in general. I just had a huge analogy involving Max in a previous post, did I not? The sidekick thing is not a legitimate excuse to have lazy development; even if they didn't get as much attention or development as the top-tier characters, they still got more than this.

Maybe you should explain how exactly Iris should be developed then, because right now, it just seems to me like you are just bitter than she's even on the show in the first place.

Maybe you should look up the dozens of Iris discussions that already transpired where there were some very excellent suggestions made on the original Iris debate thread. I really don't feel obligated to repeat myself over and over again because no one wants to take the time to look at what's already been covered on this subject. Hell, the majority of these questions being asked were already covered at one point or another. And when I'm being personally accused, that doesn't make me feel inclined to go through the trouble when odds are it'll just result in more mud-slinging.

First off, her and Ash hardly ever bicker. And I think Cilan is more involved because the writers are making a point that they don't want him to be another Brock. That should be obvious though.

They bicker enough to annoy me; I've watched the show, so this is not something worth nitpicking over. And regardless of the reason, Cilan's still doing more than the bare minimum of his role, so there's no reason why Iris can't do the same.

That's cool and all, but it seems there's some unnecessary double standards between Cilan and Iris, who I feel are meant to fulfill almost the same purposes: entertainment. If you don't find Iris entertaining, great, but it's not fair that one thing can work for Cilan but not Iris.

Uh, Cilan and Iris are completely different characters. They're both sidekicks, presumably both are there to entertain, but I'm not getting how it's supposedly wrong or inconceivable that one succeeds in this function while the other fails. Iris' faults don't somehow magically spread and make everyone as unlikable as her. That's not how entertainment works.

You aren't thinking hard enough then.

That's not your call to make.

pokemon fan 132 said:
I guess you werent too much around here when it was revealed how female co-star is going to be replaced with sidekick.I can think of at least 10 fans in here who are annoyed by this.

You mean were, considering you're talking about stuff that occurred when BW was just beginning over half a year ago. And since I'm not seeing ten people harp on this today, I'm assuming they've accepted it and moved on or whatever, which still makes this a moot point.

Some people will continue to nitpick how way in which writers executed this was poorly but i dont agree with them with there being a small line between good and bad writing.
Judging by reactions of fandom at least in here it seems writers got what they intended by having people starting to care more for character.

That... was not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about how perfection is impossible in this context, not... whatever the hell you're going on about. Also, for someone so insistent on bringing up subjectivity every time I say something sucks, you're being pretty hypocritical with your last line. Reminds me of what Hellion said about how lots of people like Big Macs, but that doesn't magically make it fine dining.

Iris passive attitude toward training her pokemon was portrayed as flaw since her pokemon slowly develop having unstable team at moment.For problems which are being caused by pokemon trainer is on some part responsible for their actions too like its case with Emolga.

Yes, that much has been inferred. But the canon itself is not directly treating this as a flaw, still. If the writers are willing to contradict all of the evidence showing Iris being completely negligent with her Excadrill within one episode for no reason, I'm sure they'd be willing to do the same with Emolga down the road.

Even if everything in Iris story gets treated perfectly if someone doesnt find Iris personality and plots in her story entertaining that cannot be helped.

You really need to stop saying things I already know and have already said elsewhere.

Unique traits pertaining to her character is that she is a bit wild liking to climb on trees,tends to be invasive with pokemon being overly hyperactive.

Another unique trait is that she has her own tempo when developing dragons learning what is best way to train them.

I think you're missing the point of what I said: I meant unique, likable traits. So she's a jungle girl, invasive with Pokemon, and hyperactive. Yeah, not only are those traits horrendously downplayed most of the time, but Sapphire from Pokemon Special did pretty much all of this better without being horrendously annoying to boot. So nope, that doesn't count for me.

The "own tempo" thing is something the writers are outrageously failing at maintaining, pretty much to the point where it's backfired, so I don't consider that a likable trait, either.
 
Sheesh. The seventh circle of hell is more of an inviting place than this topic.
No one is forcing you to post here.

You say everything was covered ... so what's to debate? I'm not telling you to stop posting here, but this is all simply going in circles. This mindless debate .... It's obvious that you won't change your opinion and neither will the others. I'm not gonna stop you, feel free to debate but at one point you'll just have to see that all points have been made. Everyone expressed their opinions, especially you in those long, constructive posts so why bother doing this over and over again?
 
Topic. Get back on it now. If you're sick of a thread, report it and state good reasons.
 
Er, my reason for posting in the first place was pretty straightforward: there's a popular misconception that the "main" reason people don't like Iris and believe the writers are screwing up with her is because she isn't a co-star like Dawn and hence doesn't get the kind of limelight and development that she "should" be getting. My intention was to clear that up, because I especially never had any desire to see Iris be on Dawn's level or be anything even remotely like the previous two girls. If that were to happen, I really believe I'd dislike the character even more than I do already. I'm not the only one here who feels that way, and like I said, presently I haven't really seen anyone save for one person who doesn't like Iris who actually feels that way. Not on this forum, anyway, which is the only place that should matter.

So, uh, yeah. Just sayin', there are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike or otherwise be dissatisfied with the way the show is handling Iris.
 
Hellion just covered that whole scenario nice and good for me, so refer to that, since that's what I'm going with. If you want to interpret that as being in denial, go right ahead. I'm suited just fine to debating without throwing direct, baseless accusations at people.

And there is one simple thing people tend to overlook about whole problem with Iris and Excadrill with whole issue not deriving only from pokemon but his trainer as well.

Iris failed to understand her own pokemon feelings not being able to understand reason which started whole problem in first place and why defeat from Drayden caused Excadrill to cover up in his "own little world".
By having Iris being ready to admit how this was her own fault in said episode she changed being willing to take up responsibility behind her mistakes.

Iris had this Dragon Master goal all along and since the writers were too lazy to ever throw hints/foreshadowing out before it was revealed after thirty episodes in, it felt like it came right out of left field and if it wasn't a well-known fact that Iris is a Dragon-type Gym Leader in the games, then it would've had even more of a random WTF effect.

I thought this was already covered.,Reason is because writers wanted to try something new using approach of keeping audience in suspense by keeping Iris story at first in mystery slowly revealing components of it step by step.

Maybe you should look up the dozens of Iris discussions that already transpired where there were some very excellent suggestions made on the original Iris debate thread. I really don't feel obligated to repeat myself over and over again because no one wants to take the time to look at what's already been covered on this subject. Hell, the majority of these questions being asked were already covered at one point or another.

Considering how many of fan suggestions are terrible which would make this show only worse im actually thankful with way writers are handling things in this show.

There comes up some brilliant suggestion and scenario once in awhile but they are in minority.

You mean were, considering you're talking about stuff that occurred when BW was just beginning over half a year ago. And since I'm not seeing ten people harp on this today, I'm assuming they've accepted it and moved on or whatever, which still makes this a moot point.

Not really,they still hang around here,they just dont come very often in anime section.

That... was not what I was talking about at all. I was talking about how perfection is impossible in this context, not... whatever the hell you're going on about. Also, for someone so insistent on bringing up subjectivity every time I say something sucks, you're being pretty hypocritical with your last line. Reminds me of what Hellion said about how lots of people like Big Macs, but that doesn't magically make it fine dining.

My point was that while some things were poorly treated about Iris there were also things which were handled well with some credit being deserved to be given to it.

And i think your missing the point in here.Whether episode about Iris and Excadrill was badly written or not is up to debate,but way in which Excadrill and Iris bonded with writers revealing their past and re-establishing their friendship showing emotions between two characters left impact writers wanted to achieve being to make people care for character they wrote.

Of course this doesnt apply to everyone but just because they didnt managed to fulfill expectations from everyone doesnt make this episode bad.Trying to claim otherwise would be like insulting people intelligence "being ignorant to recognize good writing"which works for both sides in reality than.

Yes, that much has been inferred. But the canon itself is not directly treating this as a flaw, still. If the writers are willing to contradict all of the evidence showing Iris being completely negligent with her Excadrill within one episode for no reason, I'm sure they'd be willing to do the same with Emolga down the road.

And how exactly episode with Excadrill contradicted any evidence about Iris being passive when training pokemon prior to that?

Difference between Axew,Emolga and Excadrill is in fact of Iris having mole pokemon for much longer than she had those two being her first pokemon wit stronger bond between them being created,Whole point of episode was to have Iris gain thrust and confidence from her pokemon back restoring bond between trainer and pokemon they used to have in past.

Going by past and Iris active approach toward training Drillbur should tell us how main reason why she is even being passive when training her other pokemon like Emolga is because of having negative experience with Excadrill in past with her character changing because of that.

By resolving issue with Excadrill writers didnt negated everything they done before because they simply addressed on already established relationship between Iris and pokemon they shared in past with writers creating pathway for Iris character to regain confidence she used to have before being step toward her change becoming again active in training pokmoin.

You really need to stop saying things I already know and have already said elsewhere.

Point taken but when people often exclude to point out how they are expressing their own opinion someone might get wrong assumption out of it making it seem like people are trying to pass their thoughts as facts.

I think you're missing the point of what I said: I meant unique, likable traits. So she's a jungle girl, invasive with Pokemon, and hyperactive. Yeah, not only are those traits horrendously downplayed most of the time, but Sapphire from Pokemon Special did pretty much all of this better without being horrendously annoying to boot. So nope, that doesn't count for me.

The "own tempo" thing is something the writers are outrageously failing at maintaining, pretty much to the point where it's backfired, so I don't consider that a likable trait, either.

Fair enough you dont view this as unique and likable traits and i respect that but that doesnt apply to everyone.All things you mentioned of being unoriginal and annoying about Iris i consider to be entertaining and something new we havent seen before.

Like Callisto nicely summed it up,you cant please everyone.
 
I thought this was already covered.,Reason is because writers wanted to try something new using approach of keeping audience in suspense by keeping Iris story at first in mystery slowly revealing components of it step by step.

The "new approach" had absolutely nothing of the sort. Being tasked with raising an Axew and coming from a dragon-worshipping village aren't exactly "components" of this goal - otherwise, we'd have to assume that everybody from Iris' village are or will be Dragon Masters, which was not insinuated as far as I recall. Plus, for all this "experience" Iris has, she still only has one Dragon-type in her possession and the rest of her Pokemon aren't Dragon-typed at all. Small things like identifying a Dragonite skeleton and her mission to fully evolve Axew don't really count as "hints" to me, because Iris could've simply just been interested in Dragon-types as a hobby and nothing more. The anime already deviated Iris as a whole by not making her a Gym Leader, so that combined with her total lack of urgency to evolve Axew says nothing about her Dragon Master goal and there were no real signs prior to BW030 that pointed towards said goal. She allegedly already had this aspiration from the beginning (since she said it was a secret way early on), but it was not obvious at all and no one could have suspected before BW030 that she would have this goal. It came out of nowhere, there was no build-up, and I'm not delusional/in denial/missing the point/misunderstanding the show. Swear to god, do not say any of these in response to this.


Considering how many of fan suggestions are terrible which would make this show only worse im actually thankful with way writers are handling things in this show.

There comes up some brilliant suggestion and scenario once in awhile but they are in minority.

Gee, what a subjective thing to say.

Not really,they still hang around here,they just dont come very often in anime section.

Then they don't matter. Drop it.

My point was that while some things were poorly treated about Iris there were also things which were handled well with some credit being deserved to be given to it.

And i think your missing the point in here.Whether episode about Iris and Excadrill was badly written or not is up to debate,but way in which Excadrill and Iris bonded with writers revealing their past and re-establishing their friendship showing emotions between two characters left impact writers wanted to achieve being to make people care for character they wrote.

You overlooked the part where I said anyone's free to praise the writing all they want if they truly think it's good. There is nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with are the people who claim the writing is PERFECT. Like, literally, PERFECT. As in, "there is nothing these writers can do wrong for Iris" because they are PERFECT, i.e. exempt from any and all flaws.

People who say that are not being honest; they're overcompensating for who-knows-what reason. This is because nobody is perfect. Perfection in this context is impossible. Paul's my favorite character, I am content with how the writers handled him, but I would not say that they were PERFECT and that they could do no wrong with him no matter what. This is the point I was making here. Quality of the writing is up to the eye of the beholder - trust me, I get that - so please stop derailing a very fair wake-up call I was attempting to make.

I'm also skipping a lot of these questions because they were already answered elsewhere. Several times. I'm not a one-trick pony, people.


Point taken but when people often exclude to point out how they are expressing their own opinion someone might get wrong assumption out of it making it seem like people are trying to pass their thoughts as facts.

I have made it very clear - several times - that I am not trying to pass my opinions off as facts. I really don't think I have to add some mandatory "btw this is just my opinion I'm not passing it off as a fact" clause to every other sentence I make. We are human beings, not goldfish. Our long/short-term memory spans should be functional here.

Fair enough you dont view this as unique and likable traits and i respect that but that doesnt apply to everyone.

Golly, I had no idea. Say, did I say I was speaking for everyone when I talked about how there isn't a single aspect about Iris that I like? Oh hey, I didn't! Because who would honestly be so narrow-minded, egotistical, and short-sighted to think they can speak for everybody? Not me, believe it or not.

All things you mentioned of being unoriginal and annoying about Iris i consider to be entertaining and something new we havent seen before.

Good for you.
 
Yeah, I feel there doing a lot with Iris. I think one of the things about Pokemon that annoyed me was that every girl was treated in a girly girl light. Well, the little girls I babysit who watch Pokemon enjoy Iris. I'm glad they do, because girls don't have to follow the stereotype of Princessy, Girly girl, and damsel in distress thing we see in every cartoon. She reminds me of Kim Possible kinda. Iris can run, jump, and swing and do a lot of things way better Satoshi even though he's the male of the group. In other popular Anime the main girls are usually the lesser treated members of the group compared to the males, weaker, and the ones who are saved all the time, "Sakura", "Orihime","Nami", "Pink Ranger", things like that. Great to see a girl who's not like that. I also feel she has the most character out of Satoshi-Tachi.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with her "Kodomo Ne", it takes up as much time to say as "Daijoubou", "Kamo", Dento sparkling, Takeshi's flirting, and "Going My Steady". Though I dislike the way Dento gets a special treatment over Iris by fans because he does funny stuff and is voiced by Mamoru Miyano. I don't see anyone complaining at all over Dento taking on Shuuti and calling him a Sue if he possibly beats Shuuti. I don't see anyone complaining over him "taking over Satoshi's rivalry" or "Interacting with Shuuti" when him and Satoshi don't have a "solid rivalry" yet. At that point, I've come to the conclusion Dento is getting special treatment. Even though for a long long long time, I've been telling myself that he isn't and that I shouldn't come off as bias. But, he is getting special treatment to some extent when it comes right down to it.
 
The "new approach" had absolutely nothing of the sort. Being tasked with raising an Axew and coming from a dragon-worshipping village aren't exactly "components" of this goal - otherwise, we'd have to assume that everybody from Iris' village are or will be Dragon Masters, which was not insinuated as far as I recall.

Point of new approach was to keep people in dark by not revealing someones story fully at beginning purposely dragging out with it until goal and problems surrounding Iris character and pokemon got revealed.

As it can be noticed writers are trying out several new concepts in BW with Ash catching alot of pokemon being one of them,How successful they are with it is another story but i can say i like their bold and new approach they are trying out.

As saying goes:"No pain,no gain!".

Plus, for all this "experience" Iris has, she still only has one Dragon-type in her possession and the rest of her Pokemon aren't Dragon-typed at all. Small things like identifying a Dragonite skeleton and her mission to fully evolve Axew don't really count as "hints" to me, because Iris could've simply just been interested in Dragon-types as a hobby and nothing more.
It came out of nowhere, there was no build-up, and I'm not delusional/in denial/missing the point/misunderstanding the show. Swear to god, do not say any of these in response to this.

If writers made hints too obvious it would have ruined suspense builder to audience rather wanting people to keep guessing until Iris secret of wanting to become dragon master got revealed in 30th episode.

As you said there were some hints like Iris coming from dragon village with task of evolving Axew as well having some secret but this was kept along the lines of having ambiguous meaning until "secret"gets revealed late being kept until than as mystery.BW 36th episode gave answer to a lot of unanswered questions about Iris past and connections to Drayden.

Then they don't matter. Drop it.

Except they do if their only reason for hating Iris is because she has smaller role than Dawn did.Just because you dont see such complaining in here doesnt make it non existent.

This reminds me days when Misty was complained about just because she was supporting character making such arguments invalid.

You overlooked the part where I said anyone's free to praise the writing all they want if they truly think it's good. There is nothing wrong with that. What I have a problem with are the people who claim the writing is PERFECT. Like, literally, PERFECT. As in, "there is nothing these writers can do wrong for Iris" because they are PERFECT, i.e. exempt from any and all flaws.

To be perfectly honest i didnt noticed anyone claiming how "everything about Iris was treated perfectly".People acknowledged some mistakes that writers did but at same time they disagree how everything so far "was treated poorly" finding way in which writers expand on Iris background and her goal to be done in more or less satisfactory manner.

Personally i already stated what i view as flaws coming from writers side when it comes to treatment of Iris story but at same time i wont and cannot deny how writers did some pretty good job with character so far as well.

I have made it very clear - several times - that I am not trying to pass my opinions off as facts. I really don't think I have to add some mandatory "btw this is just my opinion I'm not passing it off as a fact" clause to every other sentence I make. We are human beings, not goldfish. Our long/short-term memory spans should be functional here.

I wasnt referring to anyone specifically but some people try to do that in here.

Golly, I had no idea. Say, did I say I was speaking for everyone when I talked about how there isn't a single aspect about Iris that I like? Oh hey, I didn't! Because who would honestly be so narrow-minded, egotistical, and short-sighted to think they can speak for everybody? Not me, believe it or not.

I never said you did.
 
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