Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

[Iteru]

Though I dislike the way Dento gets a special treatment over Iris by fans because he does funny stuff and is voiced by Mamoru Miyano. I don't see anyone complaining at all over Dento taking on Shuuti and calling him a Sue if he possibly beats Shuuti. I don't see anyone complaining over him "taking over Satoshi's rivalry" or "Interacting with Shuuti" when him and Satoshi don't have a "solid rivalry" yet. At that point, I've come to the conclusion Dento is getting special treatment. Even though for a long long long time, I've been telling myself that he isn't and that I shouldn't come off as bias. But, he is getting special treatment to some extent when it comes right down to it.

Dent is not the topic of this thread, and does not have relevancy to the topic either. Please keep on the subject of Iris, otherwise Banned/Wrong Topic infractions shall be handed out.

 

[Miar]

Considering she's already got (I think) more backstory than Ash, and her own mission (to evolve Axew), and bit by bit she's overcome a few obstacles (such as making up with Excadrill), yes. Iris has gained significant development from the girl who would always belittle Ash less than 40 episodes ago to now, and it won't stop there.

 

[Hellion]

I'm glad they do, because girls don't have to follow the stereotype of Princessy, Girly girl, and damsel in distress thing we see in every cartoon.

Except a character can be girly and feminine, and yet also be smart, capable and not a damsel in distress. Neither is mutually exclusive. The opposite is also true, as a character can be tomboyish or more active/outdoorsy, and still be a damsel in distress. Which brings me to my next point...

Iris can run, jump, and swing and do a lot of things way better Satoshi even though he's the male of the group. In other popular Anime the main girls are usually the lesser treated members of the group compared to the males, weaker, and the ones who are saved all the time, "Sakura", "Orihime","Nami", "Pink Ranger", things like that. Great to see a girl who's not like that.

Except that if you take out the "girliness", Iris is pretty much exactly like that. In BW002, she watches as Satoshi runs up a tree and jumps to save Pikachu and Kibago; she stood on the sidelines of counteless battles despite the writers having portrayer her as a knowledgeable and capable trainer (as recently seen in BW029, BW030, BW035, BW039, etc.) she's pretty much the medic and emotional component of the trio (read, she's The Chick) and so far, she has really been portrayed as a Faux Action Girl, which only highlights are really not doing enough in terms of developing the character.

I honestly don't see what's wrong with her "Kodomo Ne"

That's been addressed before, but Iris's catchphrase is putting down other people, making her seem like she's superior to them, whereas all of the other catchphrases or character quirks really defined the character and were positive. Again, the writers are writing Iris's story with having in mind creating a pathos, an emotional appeal to the audience, and yet they give her characteristics that instead of endearing the audience, instead of making the audience feel invested in the character, is pretty much making the character seem overly critical. If she doesn't feel anything in the face of her "friends's" (and I use the term loosely here) failings and obstacles, why should the audience feel anything in the face of her failings and obstacles. Oh wait... she would need to have some for us to feel something in the first place... There's a disconnect between the writers's intended role for Iris on the show and the decisions they're making, ultimately making her into a character that really doesn't fulfill the role she was created for, and therefore brings next to nothing as far as entertainement value or dramatic quality.

 

[Sweet Veil]

Except a character can be girly and feminine, and yet also be smart, capable and not a damsel in distress. Neither is mutually exclusive. The opposite is also true, as a character can be tomboyish or more active/outdoorsy, and still be a damsel in distress. Which brings me to my next point...

Never said they couldn't.

Except that if you take out the "girliness", Iris is pretty much exactly like that. In BW002, she watches as Satoshi runs up a tree and jumps to save Pikachu and Kibago; she stood on the sidelines of counteless battles despite the writers having portrayer her as a knowledgeable and capable trainer (as recently seen in BW029, BW030, BW035, BW039, etc.) she's pretty much the medic and emotional component of the trio (read, she's The Chick) and so far, she has really been portrayed as a Faux Action Girl, which only highlights are really not doing enough in terms of developing the character.

Did you really not see Iris scale a tree in order to save Kibago and Pikachu too? Or are you just ignoring that part of things? What the heck was she suppose to be doing in ep 29 with a disobeying Doryuuzu, a weak Kibago, and a lazy Emonga the same question goes for ep 30. Ep 35 was obviously a ep to give Mijumaru and Satoshi focus as well as have Dento and Satoshi catch new Pokemon, she was tending to the sick Pokemon being the only medic on the team. I don't know what you mean in 39 either, no one else had any battle focus either except Satoshi's Dangoro, Pikachu, and Mijumaru helping with the fire and Team Rocket. No one was really doing anything except Satoshi who was attempting to help Archen learn how to fly. Iris brought out Emonga to help, why Dento did the filming.

That's been addressed before, but Iris's catchphrase is putting down other people, making her seem like she's superior to them, whereas all of the other catchphrases or character quirks really defined the character and were positive. Again, the writers are writing Iris's story with having in mind creating a pathos, an emotional appeal to the audience, and yet they give her characteristics that instead of endearing the audience, instead of making the audience feel invested in the character, is pretty much making the character seem overly critical. If she doesn't feel anything in the face of her "friends's" (and I use the term loosely here) failings and obstacles, why should the audience feel anything in the face of her failings and obstacles. Oh wait... she would need to have some for us to feel something in the first place... There's a disconnect between the writers's intended role for Iris on the show and the decisions they're making, ultimately making her into a character that really doesn't fulfill the role she was created for, and therefore brings next to nothing as far as entertainement value or dramatic quality.

Iris has said that to three people, Satoshi who is a kid. But, despite her saying that there still very good friends and if that wasn't true she wouldn't have saved Zuruggu and Pikachu from dying or attempt to ask her Doryuuzu to help find Satoshi. Or would have been amazed at Satoshi's skills with helping Pokabu and using Mamepato. She obviously likes him.

Langley and Shuuti were both being smug assholes so they deserved it. Iris did that partly to help Satoshi get his battle against Shuuti.

You don't find Iris interesting or really like her character, ok. I thought we discussed that a billion times already. I find Iris relatable in many aspects. You can't really gauge your opinion as the sort of poster child opinion for everyone.

 

[CrackFox]

Exactly. The difference between sidekick and co-star is the number of episodes that focus on them, but that number has ultimately no bearing on what role the writers want the characters to play. Co-star or sidekick, if the writers gear a character towards building a pathos, make an emotional appeal to the audience make them feel as they feel, make them care when they care, which is what they're attempting and failing to do with Iris, they need ultimately to make the character vulnerable and relatable so that he/she's easy to understand and easy to identify with. But in Iris's case, they're trying to make us feel about a character who's already very strong, already very knowledgeable, already possess the skills necessary for the goal she's pursuing and saddled with other characters's problems that she solves by showing them how selfless and caring she is... It's not relatable. I don't identify or feel compelled to care about little Miss can do no wrong.

You've pretty much described the reason I never identified with Dawn, but anyway. Staying on topic. How do you come to the conclusion that Iris is anything more than an acceptable rookie? She's not a great battler, and she lacks the confidence that others did. She's apprehensive to battle, that's been demonstrated a few times. I think you're confusing her personality with her ability. She puts Ash down and she's quite feisty. That doesn't indicate that she's better than anyone, if anything it only indicates how immature she really is.
She's been shown to be emotional over her treatment of Excadrill. Dent made her realize that she'd failed Excadrill and she promised to be a better trainer to it.

That is not the scenario of a character who has nothing more to learn. She's arrogant but she's very emotional and childish. She has a lot of developing to do.

 

[Lafayette Excadrill]

I think that Iris is one of more developed characters in Best Wishes as a whole and is probably going to fulfill Axew's goal by the end of the series. I just think she is overlooked because she isn't as flashy and outgoing as Cilan and doesn't have a as much attention as the previous girls and their contest arcs.

 

[Hellion]

Did you really not see Iris scale a tree in order to save Kibago and Pikachu too?

You mean jump on 1-2 branches, stop and watch as Satoshi climbs higher than she does, jumps, and actually tries to save them while she does nothing but watch...

What the heck was she suppose to be doing in ep 29 with a disobeying Doryuuzu, a weak Kibago, and a lazy Emonga the same question goes for ep 30. Ep 35 was obviously a ep to give Mijumaru and Satoshi focus as well as have Dento and Satoshi catch new Pokemon, she was tending to the sick Pokemon being the only medic on the team. I don't know what you mean in 39 either, no one else had any battle focus either except Satoshi's Dangoro, Pikachu, and Mijumaru helping with the fire and Team Rocket.

And you're proving my point. If you read the "Faux Action Girl" page I linked, you'd see that what you've just described fits the description perfectly. She's been portrayed as being knowledgeable, capable, good battler, physically active, with action-oriented skills, and yet whenever there's actually some action to be had, she's mysteriously playing medic or sporting a worried look on her face on the sidelines. Sure, rarely, she's been shown to contribute in taking out some low-level enemies (TR in 1-2 occasions) and has once been shown to have one "good chick v bad chick episode" but that's nothing more than all of the textbook faux action girls examples you've listed. Iris is no different than any of these characters and suffers essentially from the same flaws.

Iris has said that to three people

And Doryuuzu... but it ultimately doesn't matter to how many people she said it. You asked what was perceived as wrong with Iris's catchphrase by part of the fandom, and I'm simply realying what myself and others expressed in the thread that was dedicated to that subject: the catchphrase is used to put people down, and is therefore perceived as negative and not a positive trait for Iris, and generally doesn't make her an endearing character.

How do you come to the conclusion that Iris is anything more than an acceptable rookie?

Because I've kept up with the latest Japanese episodes including BW030 in which she's already shown to be very knowledgeable about Dragons, already knows how to bring their full power, can already understand, calm and communicate with them, basically showing already possessing all of the skills necessary to become a Dragon Master. Then in BW036, she's shown to already have 99 wins under her belt before Ash even had his first pokémon, she was shown to be able to win local tournaments, and Shaga, himsel a Dragon Master and Gym Leader, is impressed with her battling so much that he assumes she studied battling intensely, but no, she got it all from chilling and playing with wild pokémon, hinting that she's a natural at battling, some kind of prodigy.

All of those characteristics ultimately make any developpement for Iris impossible, and therefore make her story very unappealing to me.

 

[CrackFox]

Because I've kept up with the latest Japanese episodes including BW030 in which she's already shown to be very knowledgeable about Dragons, already knows how to bring their full power, can already understand, calm and communicate with them, basically showing already possessing all of the skills necessary to become a Dragon Master. Then in BW036, she's shown to already have 99 wins under her belt before Ash even had his first pokémon, she was shown to be able to win local tournaments, and Shaga, himsel a Dragon Master and Gym Leader, is impressed with her battling so much that he assumes she studied battling intensely, but no, she got it all from chilling and playing with wild pokémon, hinting that she's a natural at battling, some kind of prodigy.

All of those characteristics ultimately make any developpement for Iris impossible, and therefore make her story very unappealing to me.

Ash has ten times that amount of wins and achievements, and everyone accepts that his character still needs developing. Because despite that he still makes mistakes and his battle skills need improving. We don't really know exactly what Iris hopes to achieve and she may not ever achieve anything substantial, but both her character and her training skills are open to development. As I said before, she's unsure of herself, apprehensive to partake in battles because she's scared of losing. She didn't understand her Pokemon's feelings.
I think she's quite complex and she's interesting to me. I totally disagree that there's nothing more the writers could do with her.

 

[Masurao]

Ash has ten times that amount of wins and achievements, and everyone accepts that his character still needs developing. Because despite that he still makes mistakes and his battle skills need improving.

I chalk it up to terrible writing. Yes, he has accomplished more than her, and would probably destroy her in a battle if he really wanted to. However, none of his Pokemon were handed wins as easily as Excadrill was, especially when all it seems to do is attack, attack, attack with very little strategy at all.

As I said before, she's unsure of herself, apprehensive to partake in battles because she's scared of losing. She didn't understand her Pokemon's feelings.

Her entering the tournament ( which she better lose) says otherwise. If she does win this upcoming tournament, I might actually have to agree with the "sue" stuff Hellion is talking about Right now, no...but if she get's further than Ash, and beats Trip where both Cilan, and Ash don't I'm going to call absolute BS. But I could see Axew evolving here, or Emolga obeying her after some emotional exposition to save her butt like Ash before her. Looking at the image with it fight the Sawk, it seems like "Static' was activated, which could imply it's been battling for extended period of time...aka obeying her. So, I could see Excadrill losing then Emolga coming out and winning the fight after some desperate pleas and friendship talk.

Given that the tournament is 4 episodes, it's safe to say either Ash or Iris will make it to the final round, otherwise I don't think the writers would waste their time. While unlikely, I wouldn't put it past the writers to have her win just for the purposes of hyping her more ( and because I don't think the writers would allow Ash to win a tournament in Nimbasa, and then go win a badge right after).

 

[Lafayette Excadrill]

It would be funny if Iris and Trip began to have a rivalry starting with this tournament, and Kenyan turned out to be Ash's main rival.

Iris could be a real contender in this tournament, Excadrill is a major beast, Emolga is very deceitful and has good attacks, and Axew is getting really stronger. I really think you guys are underestimating her.

 

[Masurao]

It would be funny if Iris and Trip began to have a rivalry starting with this tournament, and Kenyan turned out to be Ash's main rival.

No

I really think you guys are underestimating her.

Underestimating? Really? You've got entirely the wrong idea.

 

[Lafayette Excadrill]

Underestimating? Really? You've got entirely the wrong idea.

So what is it you are trying to say? At this point in the series, I'd expect Iris to make it farther than Ash in the tournament since his team is really lackluster in terms of training and power. Just because she has 3 powerful pokemon rather than 6 average ones that Ash has doesn't mean he should go farther.

Quality over quantity

I chalk it up to terrible writing. Yes, he has accomplished more than her, and would probably destroy her in a battle if he really wanted to. However, none of his Pokemon were handed wins as easily as Excadrill was, especially when all it seems to do is attack, attack, attack with very little strategy at all.

Ash does the same thing, especailly in this series

 

[Masurao]

So what is it you are trying to say? At this point in the series, I'd expect Iris to make it farther than Ash in the tournament since his team is really lackluster in terms of training and power. Just because she has 3 powerful pokemon rather than 6 average ones that Ash has doesn't mean he should go farther.

3 powerful Pokemon? She only has one. Besides, what exactly would have her getting further than Ash accomplish? She'll just become even more arrogant, than she already is. I really rather not see some lame-ass story line where she is "superior" to Ash until the end when he "surpasses" her. Her winning here would just give her even more hype which she doesn't need after episode 36 based on her Excadrill's protrayal. Why does she need to shine here above Ash or Trip? This is a perfect opportunity to allow Ash's other Pokemon to get some screen time. Besides her winning with her current party would be terrible writing. It would also take away completely from Ash, and Trip's rivalry since she will be viewed as superior to her traveling companions...making her the one he wants to battle, not his ACTUAL rival.

Ash does the same thing, especailly in this series

But his Pokemon never gotten 99 straight wins, now have they?

 

[Lafayette Excadrill]

It would be nice if Ash and Iris did battle eachother in the tournament. That way it would showcase how much stronger both of them have become with their pokemon, and showcase ash's other pokemon if he doesnt used oshawott, snivy, or tepig.

And the more Iris battles, the more Emolga might grow more reliable and listen. And i doubt Trip actually views Ash a rival. Ash is just delusional At least Paul took Ash seriously at times.

 

[Sweet Veil]

You mean jump on 1-2 branches, stop and watch as Satoshi climbs higher than she does, jumps, and actually tries to save them while she does nothing but watch...

What the hell? She was attempting to help she was being realistic about it and wasn't gonna risk hurting herself attempting to jump 20 feet to Team Rocket Balloon.

And you're proving my point. If you read the "Faux Action Girl" page I linked, you'd see that what you've just described fits the description perfectly. She's been portrayed as being knowledgeable, capable, good battler, physically active, with action-oriented skills, and yet whenever there's actually some action to be had, she's mysteriously playing medic or sporting a worried look on her face on the sidelines. Sure, rarely, she's been shown to contribute in taking out some low-level enemies (TR in 1-2 occasions) and has once been shown to have one "good chick v bad chick episode" but that's nothing more than all of the textbook faux action girls examples you've listed. Iris is no different than any of these characters and suffers essentially from the same flaws.

Huh? I don't know how you can even attempt to compare characters like Sakura Haruno to Iris. I watch Naruto and let me tell, Sakura is a character with a sweet heart who wants to help and has the ability to help but, either her fears or insecurities get the best of her and she fizzles. Relying on Naruto, Rock Lee, or another male character to save her from certain death on a regular basis. Iris on the other hand didn't have the ability to help her friends unless it involved her directly. Meaning the only way she could help her friends is if she did things like used her M.A.D jungle skills and medic abilities. She doesn't freeze up in a very bad situation and not try to help the way Sakura does. Plus the minute Kibago mastered Dragon Rage she used it to beat Kojirou's Desmas. The minute she got the chance to help battling wise she used it, she did the same with Doryuuzu's Dig in Dangoro's episode. Your going really really far in a attempt to make Iris look bad. And I'm not gonna get sucked far in to the subject of that "faux girl" whatever.

And Doryuuzu... but it ultimately doesn't matter to how many people she said it. You asked what was perceived as wrong with Iris's catchphrase by part of the fandom, and I'm simply realying what myself and others expressed in the thread that was dedicated to that subject: the catchphrase is used to put people down, and is therefore perceived as negative and not a positive trait for Iris, and generally doesn't make her an endearing character.

That's why I said people

Shuuti and Langley had no problem "putting down people" with there words did they?

Like I said, Satoshi and Iris are good friends despite Iris calling him a kid. Or else she wouldn't do things like play with him, gather food for him, and help him out and worry about him would she?

Satoshi isn't on the phone every night at 12AM crying to him mom about how the evil overlord Iris calls him a kid now is he?

 

[Hellion]

What the hell? She was attempting to help she was being realistic about it and wasn't gonna risk hurting herself attempting to jump 20 feet to Team Rocket Balloon.

Satoshi did, and that's my point. We saw how far Satoshi was willing to go to save Pikachu and Kibago only watched him. He was endearing in that situation, he was the hero, Iris was just there despite, as you said, showing more profficiency at climbing and jumping. Again there's a disconnect between the set of skills that the writers gave Iris and what they're actually having her do with them, hence outside of the very few moments where we saw her use her athleticism to legit help around, like in BW003, most of the time she's just watching Satoshi play hero while she plays medic, stands about bitching, and that even after she got Doryuuzu listening to her and Kibago mastering Dragon Rage. Ergo, faux action girl.

The description in the page I linked described Iris's involvement on the show so far, though that may change.

Shuuti and Langley had no problem "putting down people" with there words did they?

Again, you're approaching the question with a divisionist mind frame as opposed to look at things from a holistic point of view. Shooti and Langley are rivals. Their job is to create conflict with the hero, to present an obstacle to the hero, so that we then root for them. It's totally acceptable for them to have stank attitude and it actually allows the story to carry on because of the conflict they create. Whereas a rival is there to make me care about the main character, the main character is there to make me care about them, which Iris abusing a catchphrase that puts down others doesn't really contributes to.

Like I said, Satoshi and Iris are good friends despite Iris calling him a kid.

That Satoshi doesn't call Iris on her attitude in no way makes me care more about her; I dare say it even makes me care less. At least if he did, it'd help his development, but right now, it serves no narrative purpose and is just annoying to me. At least the writers are having her say it less and less.

Your going really really far in a attempt to make Iris look bad.

I have no preconceived opinions on Iris. My opinion on her character is solely based on what I've observed, and whether or not the direction the writers are taking with her character is fulfilling the role the writers want her to play on the show and whether it makes me care about the character. So far it hasn't on both counts, for the various reasons I've already stated. The writers are gearing Iris towards trying to create pathos, but by making her already very capable, knowledgeable, already possessing the qualities of a Dragon Master, with none of her problems stemming from her which heightens the sense that she's perfect and waiting for her pokémon to start listening to her because of how much of a great trainer she is, with everyone liking her and not calling her out on her flaws and mistakes. Yet, with all this skill and knowledge, the writers are just having her stand around watching Satoshi save the day, playing medic, and just not being all that proactive except defeating low level mooks and the one Evil Chick, who of course has no redeeming qualities and is totally evil. They're just no story, no developement, and ultimately, after seeing all of those elements pile up, and seeing what could have been a very interesting character reduce to this.

Long story short, the writer's choices in regards to Iris's character dictate my opinions, not the other way around.

 

[Sweet Veil]

He was endearing in that situation, he was the hero, Iris was just there despite, as you said, showing more profficiency at climbing and jumping. Again there's a disconnect between the set of skills that the writers gave Iris and what they're actually having her do with them, hence outside of the very few moments where we saw her use her athleticism to legit help around, like in BW003, most of the time she's just watching Satoshi play hero while she plays medic, stands about bitching, and that even after she got Doryuuzu listening to her and Kibago mastering Dragon Rage. Ergo, faux action girl.

The description in the page I linked described Iris's involvement on the show so far, though that may change.

Um no. In Sunglasses Meguroco's episode she saved Satoshi and the Meguroco from falling in the hot boiling water, she also was more concerned about finding Mijumaru then Satoshi was who simply just wanted to play in the hot sand. Satoshi has always been head strong like that, jumping in hot water and jumping in front of attacks is his thing. Iris saved Moguryuu from falling even though the two were just fighting a minute ago and formed a relationship with him through hard work, she was willing to swing on a cable cord just to save Satoshi's Pikachu. She went and fought a wild Pokemon herself to save Minezumi's nest. She's endearing, sweet, kind, and caring and showing how nice a character she is going through all that trouble for her friend. If your really trying to compare her to characters like Sakura and Orihime, your way off.

Again, you're approaching the question with a divisionist mind frame as opposed to look at things from a holistic point of view. Shooti and Langley are rivals. Their job is to create conflict with the hero, to present an obstacle to the hero, so that we then root for them. It's totally acceptable for them to have stank attitude and it actually allows the story to carry on because of the conflict they create. Whereas a rival is there to make me care about the main character, the main character is there to make me care about them, which Iris abusing a catchphrase that puts down others doesn't really contributes to.

Ok, so her calling Satoshi a kid is really just that horrible apparently

Children in real life, and many friends of the main character insult the character all the time. It's not anything new, Usagi Tsukino's friends insult her , so do Doremi's friends, so do Goku's friends, and so do Naruto's friends. It's hard to view your questions in a neutral way.

That Satoshi doesn't call Iris on her attitude in no way makes me care more about her; I dare say it even makes me care less. At least if he did, it'd help his development, but right now, it serves no narrative purpose and is just annoying to me. At least the writers are having her say it less and less.

Satoshi did in Meguroco's episode.

I have no preconceived opinions on Iris. My opinion on her character is solely based on what I've observed, and whether or not the direction the writers are taking with her character is fulfilling the role the writers want her to play on the show and whether it makes me care about the character. So far it hasn't on both counts, for the various reasons I've already stated. The writers are gearing Iris towards trying to create pathos, but by making her already very capable, knowledgeable, already possessing the qualities of a Dragon Master, with none of her problems stemming from her which heightens the sense that she's perfect and waiting for her pokémon to start listening to her because of how much of a great trainer she is, with everyone liking her and not calling her out on her flaws and mistakes. Yet, with all this skill and knowledge, the writers are just having her stand around watching Satoshi save the day, playing medic, and just not being all that proactive except defeating low level mooks and the one Evil Chick, who of course has no redeeming qualities and is totally evil. They're just no story, no developement, and ultimately, after seeing all of those elements pile up, and seeing what could have been a very interesting character reduce to this.

Long story short, the writer's choices in regards to Iris's character dictate my opinions, not the other way around.

Your literally dissecting her character in an attempt to find reasons to dislike her. You never do this for any character except her. You always look at aspects of her character in a negative light no matter what she does, that makes me think you have ill opinions of her character. And frankly I've been done trying about this part of the argument with you for a long while now. That's why I'm not really looking at this whole, "no story, no development, no problems" stuff, it's been answered a million times before you aren't gonna except it. You obviously have your mind made up and am not going to like her no matter what she does, you say it's because of the things she does. Just curious are mad about there not being another female coordinator this region?

But, just for the hell of it. I'll answer your questions in a very complete way.

Her Doryuuzu problem stemmed from her, it was her inconsideration and not understanding her Pokemon's feelings that caused her Pokemon to close itself away from her, she apologized for what she did and took responsibilities for herself which is blantant character development. Since now she is more careful of her Pokemon's feelings, even saying Doryuuzu didn't have to battle anymore if it didn't want too. That shows she doesn't want to pressure her Pokemon like Emonga and Kibago into battling and training hard, the whole point of the show is keeping your Pokemon happy and not forcing it to do things it doesn't want. Iris cheer pressured Doryuuzu in almost the same way, Shinji pressured to Hikozaru which caused problems it was Shinji's fault in the same way it was Iris's fault.

I don't see what you mean by knowledgeable, you don't seem to want to mention other characters being knowledgeable but, her. How do you know what qualities a Dragon Master needs? The only thing knowledgeable she seems to know about is medicine and a few attacks.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

You mean jump on 1-2 branches, stop and watch as Satoshi climbs higher than she does, jumps, and actually tries to save them while she does nothing but watch...

There is something i dont get.
On one hand you complain about Iris not contributing anything to episode plot and when she does you pin it on bad writing not being enough.

It seems to me people already formed opinion on Iris and i doubt anyone will change their stance toward it no matter what writers do and how much they invest in her story.

And you're proving my point. If you read the "Faux Action Girl" page I linked, you'd see that what you've just described fits the description perfectly. She's been portrayed as being knowledgeable, capable, good battler, physically active, with action-oriented skills, and yet whenever there's actually some action to be had, she's mysteriously playing medic or sporting a worried look on her face on the sidelines.

And didnt Iris manage to defend her reputation as trainer when she battled Langley?
Didnt she managed to display her skills and knowledge about dragon types when she helped Amy and Druddigon and in what way its best to raise them?
Isnt she helping when that is possible and relevant to storyline as other mentioned?

We didnt see more of it because how active character will be dictates amount of focus he receives with Iris not being "faux action girl" because of that.

And Doryuuzu... but it ultimately doesn't matter to how many people she said it. You asked what was perceived as wrong with Iris's catchphrase by part of the fandom, and I'm simply realying what myself and others expressed in the thread that was dedicated to that subject: the catchphrase is used to put people down, and is therefore perceived as negative and not a positive trait for Iris, and generally doesn't make her an endearing character.

Some people are looking to deep in Iris catchphrase.Its nothing more than running gag really which serves to point out Iris immaturity a character tending to criticize others without being able to handle critic herself.

All of those characteristics ultimately make any developpement for Iris impossible, and therefore make her story very unappealing to me.

I cant take this post seriously.If there is no room left to develop Iris character more would make her existence in show pointless with writers not having need to include her in show in first place.

Like others pointed out Iris is unsure of herself,she is very immature not being able to take constructive criticism,has trouble understanding her own pokemon feelings like Excadrill example showed,lacks authority having unstable pokemon team being filled with disobedient pokemon,didnt came to realization in what direction to go and how to accomplish her goal of becoming dragon master which overlaps with task of evolving Axew being given by elder in dragon village etc.

It seems that you tend to identify character development with amount of emotional struggles and number of flaws which are deriving out of him which is false because there is more than one way through which character can be taken and developed further,.
Someone doesnt always need to experience emotional breakdowns left and right being portrayed as incapable and weak to learn and develop further as person.
Take a look at Cilan,Brock,Paul etc,they were portrayed as mature and capable but that didnt/doesnt mean thy dont have flaws in other areas which needs to be expanded having them grow more.

I certainly dont find nothing wrong in Iris being portrayed as confident and capable trainer for a change whose own look on things and tempo she created over the years is standing on her way to go forward and grow more with bad experiences from past leaving negative experience on character itself.
Her problems with pokemon,hesitation and insecurity in some fields are flaws which were in one way or another caused by herself serving as vector for her future progress.

And who is to say Iris couldnt in future step on obstacle which would cause inner struggle within character having to find way to get out of loop?

3 powerful Pokemon? She only has one.

Axew is on good way if BW 30th episode was anything to go by.

But his Pokemon never gotten 99 straight wins, now have they?

And how many of those 99 wins were against skilled trainers?
Just because we saw Exadrill beating Druddigon doesnt mean how trainer himself was strong.Having strong pokemon doesnt mean much if trainer is bad with tournament which Iris and Drillbur prior to evolving entered being on local basis along with at least half of mole wins being against wild pokemon.

Also Iris battled with pokemon training them long before Ash even started his journey having years of advantage so im not sure what is exactly problem in here.
I would understand this frustration if Iris caught Excadrill recently already being that strong but there was foreplay prior to that having it for years and enough time to make its current level and amount of skill believable.

My opinion on her character is solely based on what I've observed, and whether or not the direction the writers are taking with her character is fulfilling the role the writers want her to play on the show and whether it makes me care about the character. S

Correction your assuming in what way writers are intending to go with Iris perceiving it as failure from their part to fulfill expectations from viewer.
However we dont know in what direction they are planning to go with her and in what way they are trying to make people care about character.

If they are doing bad job howcome majority of viewers managed to feel connected with Iris problems and past actually caring for character itself?
There is no some generally set criteria which needs to be fulfilled to have viewer start caring.

 

[Hellion]

On one hand you complain about Iris not contributing anything to episode plot and when she does you pin it on bad writing not being enough.

Watching Satoshi be the hero while not doing anything is still watching Satoshi be the hero while not doing anything even if you're on branch. It's not an actual contribution. The only time the writers really used Iris's being more than The Chick, is in BW003, otherwise she relegated to medic, bystander, emotional component, occasional fighter or low level opponents and that one Evil Chick, and as Faux Action Girl as Faux Action Girls can get. The writers have consistantly been portraying Iris as being very knowledgeable and capable when it comes to battle and being capable of acrobatics feats, but it really hasn't played a consistant part on when there was actual legit action situations, even after her pokémon got over their problems.

It seems to me people already formed opinion on Iris and i doubt anyone will change their stance toward it no matter what writers do and how much they invest in her story.

Its nothing more than running gag really which serves to point out Iris immaturity a character tending to criticize others without being able to handle critic herself.

Running gags are meant to be funny, this isn't. I'd even argue it isn't a running gag at all. But, ultimately, this is like that It's like Brock hitting on girls, just because it's a running gag doesn't mean that trait makes me like the character more, and the same logic applies to Iris's catchphrase. Especially as there's no a whole lot of redeeming qualities or vulnerable moments with Iris to counterbalance her

If there is no room left to develop Iris character more would make her existence in show pointless

Exactly, and that's the problem. There's no justification right now for Iris's presence on the show and she stops various storylines dead in their tracks and stunts her own and other characters's developpement.

 

[Shinneth]

To be perfectly honest i didnt noticed anyone claiming how "everything about Iris was treated perfectly".People acknowledged some mistakes that writers did but at same time they disagree how everything so far "was treated poorly" finding way in which writers expand on Iris background and her goal to be done in more or less satisfactory manner.

I'm totally fine with Iris fans who acknowledge her mistakes or areas where the writers aren't doing her character justice. That's... y'know, honesty. I sure don't hestitate to point out where the writers are messing up with my own favorite characters, so I simply can't comprehend people who want to believe the everything is going perfectly just to spite the people who think the opposite when that accomplishes nothing. That right there is the definition of denial. And there are people here who've gone out of their way to say this. I considered combing through older threads to find the comments where it's been said the writers are doing, literally, a perfect job with Iris, but I decided against doing that since it'd be hypocritical of me, who's been so adamant about not targeting users here in these debates, to showcase their views that I personally think is crazy-talk.

Bottom line is, yes, I respect the people who like Iris who are honest enough to speak their minds about where she could use improvement. This topic's about how the writers are handling Iris, after all, and I haven't seen one person who ever claimed perfection on the writers' end bring up any proof of this. But that's because it can't be proven; there's no such thing as perfection in this context. I wouldn't be talking about this if I hadn't seen these kinds of comments with my own eyes, you know?

For the rest of this post I'm not bothering to address because I have no idea why you'd rip apart my posts to tell me things that A) I already know, B) Have already said be it in this thread or a prior one, and C) Don't apply to me, as you said.

Anwyay...

There is something i dont get.
On one hand you complain about Iris not contributing anything to episode plot and when she does you pin it on bad writing not being enough.

It seems to me people already formed opinion on Iris and i doubt anyone will change their stance toward it no matter what writers do and how much they invest in her story.

So we can only dislike a character for one reason and one reason only? No. For me as well, my dislike of Iris is founded both by her character as a whole in addition to the bad writing of the series that, at best, gives us many "too little, too late" scenarios.

Bad writing really can make or break a character. For example, I normally really like Ash as a character. While I don't hate him in BW, I like him a lot less than I did in previous series because I believe BW's writers are handling him poorly for numerous reasons. For Iris, it's just a double-whammy situation because some of us already dislike Iris based on the characteristics given to her by the show, so when she's the target of bad writing, that's naturally not going to help Iris' case regardless of what she's doing. And I agree with Hellion on how Iris' natural talents for vine-swinging and tree-climbing often aren't showcased in a way that shows how "cool" Iris is or anything, such as the second episode where she's not only outclassed by Ash in the tree-climbing thing, but is shown to not nearly be the kind of risk-taker that Ash is and doesn't try nearly as hard to get her Pokemon back. The fact that she often does stand around and do nothing even in tense situations is something that's hard to overlook.

So no, it's not that we're tearing the show or the character open and dissecting either one to go out of our way to find things we don't like. The show itself is giving us more and more reasons to dislike Iris and to find the writing behind her stories terrible right in front of our faces. I came into this series very excited for Iris, so no one can tell me I've had some irrational hatred for Iris from the beginning and I'm going out of my way to fabricate reasons to dislike her and warping my perceptions intentionally so that all of Iris' focused episodes make me hate her more instead of liking her. No, I'm giving these episodes a fair chance to tell me Iris isn't a lost cause.

But the more the series presses on, it's not out of sheer spite that I like Iris less and less. It's the show's failure to connect Iris with the general audience by making her an unrealistic protagonist with a convoluted backstory.

Yes, subjective/objective blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that we truly feel the writing and the character is awful just as others feel the writing and the character is amazing. Like I said, there's no right or wrong here. No one has a right to judge how we're perceiving a show just because somehow, our opinion is inconceivable from your perspective.

Some people are looking to deep in Iris catchphrase.Its nothing more than running gag really which serves to point out Iris immaturity a character tending to criticize others without being able to handle critic herself.

First problem: running gag or not, we don't find it funny or endearing so we're well within our rights to find it annoying.

Second: how is this supposed to make us like Iris? It's all well and fine if you can find charm in it (and I feel like I have to say this so you won't go on a tangent about "not everyone sees it that way"), but we don't. Like Hellion said, it's a very negative thing to associate Iris' character with and since she's not an antagonist or a rival, it's not well-suited for her. It's nice she's using it less (though now she's just choosing even more inappropriate moments to use it, such as with Excadrill), but that doesn't erase/undo the past offenses that were grating for some of us to watch.

I mean, really...

Is it really that hard to accept that there are genuinely good reasons to not like Iris and believe that the writers are doing a poor job with her?