Do you think the writers are doing enough with Iris?

[pokemon fan 132]

Watching Satoshi be the hero while not doing anything is still watching Satoshi be the hero while not doing anything even if you're on branch. It's not an actual contribution. The only time the writers really used Iris's being more than The Chick, is in BW003, otherwise she relegated to medic, bystander, emotional component, occasional fighter or low level opponents and that one Evil Chick, and as Faux Action Girl as Faux Action Girls can get. The writers have consistantly been portraying Iris as being very knowledgeable and capable when it comes to battle and being capable of acrobatics feats, but it really hasn't played a consistant part on when there was actual legit action situations, even after her pokémon got over their problems.

And we get to see:
-Iris contributing to resolution of plot in museum episode(to be precise BW episode14)
-it was Iris who helped Amy and her problems with Druddigon in Bw 30 episode displaying her knowledge when it comes to raising dragon types
-Iris also played role in Emolga focused episodes in BW 27 and BW 28
etc,etc.

Also for Iris to be able to properly demonstrate her battling skills she would need obedient pokemon:something which didnt happened with Excadrill under 36th episode and something which didnt happened so far with Emolga.

Running gags are meant to be funny, this isn't. I'd even argue it isn't a running gag at all. But, ultimately, this is like that It's like Brock hitting on girls, just because it's a running gag doesn't mean that trait makes me like the character more, and the same logic applies to Iris's catchphrase. Especially as there's no a whole lot of redeeming qualities or vulnerable moments with Iris to counterbalance her

Depends for who because i actually started to like her catchphrase/"kodomo-ne" being fitting for character reflecting her own immaturity and how she still has long way to go.

To counter your argument there have been moments of vulnerability with Iris.When her Excadrill lost battle against Langley we saw character having emotional breakdown feeling guilt of not being able to understand her own pokemon feelings and how he felt for years admitting her own mistakes.

That was very significant in Iris character because she started to change deciding to change her approach becoming better trainer.
Another example can be noticed in her inability to handle criticism reacting inappropriately because of being reminded with Ash mistakes of her own arrogance and stubbornness in past.

In this case character is by showing his own imperfections showing his sensitive side reacting impulsively.

Exactly, and that's the problem. There's no justification right now for Iris's presence on the show and she stops various storylines dead in their tracks and stunts her own and other characters's developpement.

Did you purposely skipped everything i wrote about Iris imperfections and room to grow more as character?
People already stated several times what are Iris flaws,what are vectors through which her character can be developed and in what way her story might continue.
What makes you think otherwise is beyond me.

So we can only dislike a character for one reason and one reason only? No. For me as well, my dislike of Iris is founded both by her character as a whole in addition to the bad writing of the series that, at best, gives us many "too little, too late" scenarios.

I never said such thing not being point of my post.

The fact that she often does stand around and do nothing even in tense situations is something that's hard to overlook.

Im not sure if you noticed but lately Iris screen time now that all plots which for her story has been revealed she is getting quite a lot of focus and attention lately playing some role in almost every episode with writers addressing how she is present in those episodes.

But the more the series presses on, it's not out of sheer spite that I like Iris less and less. It's the show's failure to connect Iris with the general audience by making her an unrealistic protagonist with a convoluted backstory.

To each their own i guess.
Fact that writers decided to break mold going out of their way gained them respect from my side by being brave and motivated enough to try different kind of path through which Iris story will develop compared to previous characters.

Their attempt of keeping Iris components of story like goal of becoming dragon master,problems with pokemon like Excadrill and Axew and reasons from which they stem etc as mystery in beginning starting to gradually reveal more and more of them brought new dimension to Iris character creating nice suspense for audience increasing their interest while at same time leaving so many things unanswered with ambiguous meaning.Like what exactly her goal of becoming dragon master really means and how her task to evolve Axew overlaps with it,is Langley supposed to be her rival and push for Iris future character development? etc..

Not for everyone of course but there is no denying how several people along with me welcomed their different approach.
For me good writing is present when writers reveal only that much about character to give them some rough picture but at same time they are making sure not to play all of their cards right away making several things undefined with double meaning leaving audience to guess by themselves what might happen next and in what direction character story will continue making it more complicated when you have several things overlaping in process.

Thats why i thought how Misty dream of becoming water pokemon master was unique and complicated because of not knowing enough about it to get full picture only knowing how its similar to Ashs requiring traveling,entering water competitions with E4 position being basically highest place for someone who strive to become this.

Grated writers blew it dropping ball with Misty thing leaving it unexplored with no closure being given to it but since than they had 8 years to improve becoming better learning on their mistakes.That and in Misty favor didnt went fact how ex had writer didnt cared for character not wanting to do much with it.

With Iris that sort of handicap from writers doesnt exist and judging by more active approach they have taken with Iris goal her story will without doubt be treated better by receiving more attention and substance.

Yes, subjective/objective blah blah blah, but the fact of the matter is that we truly feel the writing and the character is awful just as others feel the writing and the character is amazing. Like I said, there's no right or wrong here. No one has a right to judge how we're perceiving a show just because somehow, our opinion is inconceivable from your perspective.

I never said that i find different point of view inconceivable.Some people view Iris as epitome of bad writing,others see Iris qualities in flaws which are addressed by dislikers finding how there exist good writing in her story bringing up one simple problem.

If people cant agree on what can be considered as bad or good writing in Iris story having different definition of it and perspective that would lead to disagreement with pro and anti side not being on same mind-lenght.

Is it really that hard to accept that there are genuinely good reasons to not like Iris and believe that the writers are doing a poor job with her?

Problem is that i dont consider everything which writers did with Iris so far badly with her story being poorly treated.

 

[Hellion]

-Iris contributing to resolution of plot in museum episode(to be precise BW episode14)

She tries and fails to talk to Desumasu, but Dent, Satoshi and Aloe are doing the fighting, are taking part in the action while she's on the sidelines.

-it was Iris who helped Amy and her problems with Druddigon in Bw 30 episode displaying her knowledge when it comes to raising dragon types

And that's exactly my point, the writers portrayed Iris in that episode as someone who already knew how to talk to Dragons, unlock their inner powers, she was shown to be confidant around them, never hesitating, being able to sense them, as well as displaying vast knowledge of pokémon battles, but when it came time to fight Team Rocket, Emmy's Crimgan took out Desumasu and Pikachu took out Koromori while Iris was waiting and watching for them to be totally defenseless and order Kibago to attack them. Textbook Faux Action Girl.

Iris also played role in Emolga focused episodes in BW 27 and BW 28

Very little actual action and battling on Iris's part in those episode. In BW027, Iris was throughout the episode the damsel in distress until Satoshi came to save her. In BW028, she really didn't have any action oriented moment. That's the thing.

Also for Iris to be able to properly demonstrate her battling skills she would need obedient pokemon

She did so through her commentary on Ash's battles, consistantly being portrayed as having a vast knowledge of type matchups, attacks and battling through her commentary of Satoshi's battles, and through her mentoring or Emmy. Notice that in both those instances, she herself is not applying the skills, ergo Faux Action Girl.

there have been moments of vulnerability with Iris.

Iris showing emotion is not the same thing as being vulnerable. So far, there really hasn't been any mistake done by Iris, nothing about her is ever called out on, heck, the writers are even having her apologize for things she didn't cause. Because they've effectively made every problem exterior to her just stops the story dead in its track and makes any developement impossible.

People already stated several times what are Iris flaws,what are vectors through which her character can be developed and in what way her story might continue.

And those elements that have been stated are either proven wrong by the way the writers are handling the characters and the storylines, and how most of those "flaws" are actually exterior to Iris, not something that she has to work to overcome.

 

[Shinneth]

To each their own i guess.
Fact that writers decided to break mold going out of their way gained them respect from my side by being brave and motivated enough to try different kind of path through which Iris story will develop compared to previous characters.

I really wouldn't have a problem with the writers "breaking the mold" if they knew what the hell they were doing half the time. As far as writing in BW goes, Iris isn't the only problem for me. It'd take forever to go through every single thing I dislike about BW's writing, but all areas share a thing in common: being different for the sake of being different. That is - to me, at least - the worst reason to do this kind of thing. It's an extremely shallow reason.

And really, there was nothing wrong with their usual formula in bulding up the main cast. They tried to fix what wasn't broken, and to me that's a huge part of why Iris' character, quest, and backstory is a huge, vague mess. Really, I think one would be hard-pressed to argue that they aren't being vague with Iris, given that people are able to interpret her in vastly different ways, much moreso than I've seen with any other main character.

I mean yeah, I can see where one would find it admirable that the writers are going against a lot of their routines to make something new or fresh, presumably, but I'm not one of those people who's a fan of the change. Not because I'm against change, but beause I believe the change is being horribly executed, and for all the experience the writers have accumulated over the years, they have no excuse to suck at what they do at this stage, so it's hard for me to pardon them for the experimentation.

Problem is that i dont consider everything which writers did with Iris so far badly with her story being poorly treated.

Well, that's fairly obvious. But that wasn't my question. I'm not saying anyone should agree with our views at all; I'm just saying that it shouldn't be impossible for people who like Iris to see why others don't feel the same way. For the most part, the very idea of not liking Iris has been treated like a completely alien concept here and I don't think that's very fair or open-minded. Much as I don't like Iris, I can see and understand why people would like her. That's why I'm not interrogating every Iris fan how they could possibly like her; I don't feel the need for that.

But after all this time, it's still being assumed that people who don't like Iris have very shallow reasons from blind hatred, rage, spite from her fans, and her not being a co-star like Dawn. That's just completely incorrect in so many ways, and we've been trying to express how the writing is a large part of why Iris is getting harder and harder for us to like. There's really no clearer way for me express that.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

She tries and fails to talk to Desumasu, but Dent, Satoshi and Aloe are doing the fighting, are taking part in the action while she's on the sidelines.

Your not being fair in here,at that time Iris had not a single pokemon being able to properly battle so her passiveness can be excused in here.However she indirectly contributed to resolution of episode plot by talking to Hawes how he must have done something to make Yamask angry as well asking possessed Cilan why he became angry revealing how mask was cause.

And that's exactly my point, the writers portrayed Iris in that episode as someone who already knew how to talk to Dragons, unlock their inner powers, she was shown to be confidant around them, never hesitating, being able to sense them, as well as displaying vast knowledge of pokémon battles, but when it came time to fight Team Rocket, Emmy's Crimgan took out Desumasu and Pikachu took out Koromori while Iris was waiting and watching for them to be totally defenseless and order Kibago to attack them. Textbook Faux Action Girl.

One example doesnt make someone faux action girl.I could count several examples where other girls like May,Dawn,Misty etc were defenseless not doing anything despite being portrayed as someone who posses knowledge and required skill about something.
Same goes for males.

Also didnt Iris justified her portrayment as skilled dragon trainer knowing how to properly battle with them displaying knowledge?
She was the one who helped Amy teaching her what attacks to use with Druddigon,it was her who recognized dragon rage explaining how it works.
Needless to say thanks to her training and confidence in her Axew repeating same attack countless times in past until it reaches perfection helped him to master dragon rage.

This is her way of training as it was further proved in BW 36th episode when she was doing same thing with Excadrill repeating focus blast again and again showing confidence and how she believes in her pokemon until attack gets properly done.Same kind of training she applied in past if flashbacks of Drillbur were anything to go by.
And your forgetting how Iris also tried to save Druddigon and Axew by trying to jump on the ship in that same episode.

Very little actual action and battling on Iris's part in those episode. In BW027, Iris was throughout the episode the damsel in distress until Satoshi came to save her. In BW028, she really didn't have any action oriented moment. That's the thing.

Yet she actually saved Emolga and Axew from almost falling of a cliff,tried to battle with Emolga against Be and send her Excadrill to try to help.
Fact that Emolga was disobedient and Excadrill didnt want to listen to her limited number of options Iris would have on her disposal in those episodes.

She showed to have knowledge but as it was evidenced in recent episode about Excadrill she is unable to properly understand her pokemon feelings having sometimes too passive approach.
Those things were treated as Iris flaws needing to overcome them to become better trainer.

She did so through her commentary on Ash's battles, consistantly being portrayed as having a vast knowledge of type matchups, attacks and battling through her commentary of Satoshi's battles, and through her mentoring or Emmy. Notice that in both those instances, she herself is not applying the skills, ergo Faux Action Girl.

Explained above.She may have showed to have knowledge but her way of approaching things and negative experiences from past are holding her back to properly flourish.

For someone who had almost every pokemon in her team basically useless Iris showed surprising amount of initiative and action packed moments utilizing her skills and knowledge by helping others like Amy example showed making her not a faux action girl.

Iris showing emotion is not the same thing as being vulnerable. So far, there really hasn't been any mistake done by Iris, nothing about her is ever called out on, heck, the writers are even having her apologize for things she didn't cause. Because they've effectively made every problem exterior to her just stops the story dead in its track and makes any developement impossible.

pro-tip:if you want to make your point look valid you shouldnt pull words out of context using only moments from episodes which support your opinion.
-Iris not being able to understand her own pokemon feelings has been portrayed as flaw coming out from character itself which caused Excadrill to stay disobedient for such a long time.
-Iris being passive with her own pokemon has been depicted as flaw deriving from her causing unbalanced pokemon team full of disobedient pokemon

-Iris not coming to realization how to advance further and achieve her goals is causing her development to stop dead in its tracks preventing it from going forward.
-inability to handle criticism herself while not having problem to criticize others is showing how immature she is having to learn a lot.
Lot of those criticism is coming out from fact of Iris seeing in Ash flaws herself and mistakes she did before not being good enough to read her own pokemon feelings as Excadrill example showed.

This was one of factors why she is passive toward training her own pokemon being hesitated about it.

Considering how above mentioned things are preventing Iris from developing as person and trainer are providing lot of room to have character develop forward taking it forward.

And those elements that have been stated are either proven wrong by the way the writers are handling the characters and the storylines, and how most of those "flaws" are actually exterior to Iris, not something that she has to work to overcome.

Nothing has been proven wrong,you are only providing your own opinion being disappointed with way Iris flaws are being treated.Like i said there is more than one direction through which character can grow,with narration not being limited to only one form of character development.

Most of flaws i mentioned are in one way or another connected with Iris character as well not lying solly on her own pokmon.

Even if Iris doesnt have any flaws to overcome(which she has)there is no restraints which would stop writers from creating some obstacle down the road shaking character to the core causing flaws which he would need to jump over and deal with them.

You seem to be under impression how if someone is confident and capable as person(with Iris being portrayed as such) he cannot develop and grow anymore which is ultimately wrong and can be proven wrong by dozen of examples in literature.

I really wouldn't have a problem with the writers "breaking the mold" if they knew what the hell they were doing half the time. As far as writing in BW goes, Iris isn't the only problem for me. It'd take forever to go through every single thing I dislike about BW's writing, but all areas share a thing in common: being different for the sake of being different. That is - to me, at least - the worst reason to do this kind of thing. It's an extremely shallow reason.

And really, there was nothing wrong with their usual formula in bulding up the main cast. They tried to fix what wasn't broken, and to me that's a huge part of why Iris' character, quest, and backstory is a huge, vague mess. Really, I think one would be hard-pressed to argue that they aren't being vague with Iris, given that people are able to interpret her in vastly different ways, much moreso than I've seen with any other main character.

I mean yeah, I can see where one would find it admirable that the writers are going against a lot of their routines to make something new or fresh, presumably, but I'm not one of those people who's a fan of the change. Not because I'm against change, but beause I believe the change is being horribly executed, and for all the experience the writers have accumulated over the years, they have no excuse to suck at what they do at this stage, so it's hard for me to pardon them for the experimentation.

If you want to experiment with something new,sometimes you need to take a risk to truly know if new approach is going to work or not.For example if writers werent willing to do so with contests they would never become able to find out if this is going to work never stepping in this show.
Like saying goes"no pain,no gain!"

You say why change formula and repair something which isnt broken?Sure they could use already established pattern going with Iris through predictable route and way her character is going to be developed,just like thy could keep contests going with third coordinator in a row,.

However fresh face can only get you so far with there being needed to implement certain changes in order to mantain viewers interest.Its for same reason why people started becoming sick of character replacing for example becoming more and more unpopular among fandom with people wanting twists and something unexpected finding current formula to be stale and pointless.

Problem with people is that they are beings which can get easily fed up with anything being required some change in order to keep their interest.

How much successful have they been with Iris so far is matter of personal interpretation and whether he finds if writers are doing good job with it or not,but credit should be given to writers of being inspired and brave enough to try something new.
For a change they gave us girl which is already capable and confident not being a rookie,thy tried to keep her story veiled with mystery revealing it piece by piece,introduced several things going for Iris career which overlaps with each other making it harder to figure out in what way writers are going to take Iris character making it harder to predict as well introducing flaws which are connected both between trainer and pokemon causing it to have ambiguous meaning.

Some things are admittedly being messed up but at same time some things were if you ask me treated pretty good from writers side allowing for some quality character development and establishment of bond between Iris and her own pokemon,

But after all this time, it's still being assumed that people who don't like Iris have very shallow reasons from blind hatred, rage, spite from her fans, and her not being a co-star like Dawn. That's just completely incorrect in so many ways, and we've been trying to express how the writing is a large part of why Iris is getting harder and harder for us to like. There's really no clearer way for me express that.

Which is fine but at same time people opinions who find Iris being good character with writers doing something right with her should be respected as well with anti side trying to understand from where they are coming from instead of disregarding everything they said becoming at times how to say obtrusive with their own opinions.

Like you said there is no right or wrong in here with both sides bringing up their own views having justified reasons for liking and disliking character.

 

[Hellion]

Your not being fair in here,at that time Iris had not a single pokemon being able to properly battle so her passiveness can be excused in here.However she indirectly contributed to resolution of episode plot by talking to Hawes how he must have done something to make Yamask angry as well asking possessed Cilan why he became angry revealing how mask was cause.

But you're proving my point. Again.

I'm arguing against the idea that Iris being shown to be active and capable of some acrobatic prowess suddenly makes her an "Action Girl", since those skills rarely play a part in the resolution of episodes. More often than not, she's talks her way out of problems; she plays medic; she's the "emotional"/"spiritual" component of the main cast, basically, she's a Faux Action Girl, suffering from the same flaws as characters from other series that were mentioned above.

Also didnt Iris justified her portrayment as skilled dragon trainer knowing how to properly battle with them displaying knowledge?
She was the one who helped Amy teaching her what attacks to use with Druddigon,it was her who recognized dragon rage explaining how it works.

Exactly, again you're proving my point. She's there to encourage Emmy, you're constantly reminded throughout the episode that she's knowledgeable, confident, capable, but when it comes down to it... Emmy and Satoshi are doing the heavy lifting while Iris watches, and only when Team Rocket's pokémon are down does she actually get on the action, but does nothing as Team Rocket escape.

Those things were treated as Iris flaws needing to overcome them to become better trainer.

Not at all. The entire episode portrays Doryuuzu misunderstanding Iris's encouragements, and that's what Dento's saying, but then, after losing, Doryuuzu realizes she had cared all along and that she was right about training harder after a loss. Basically, this episode was a tribute at how Doryuuzu was wrong about Iris, with Iris being shown as doing nothing wrong, and that any other trainer that cares about his pokémon would have acted the same way she did. She apologizes for something that Dento has already told her isn't her fault.

Iris being passive with her own pokemon has been depicted as flaw deriving from her causing unbalanced pokemon team full of disobedient pokemon

But neither Doryuuzu or Emonga are/were disobedient because of Iris, but because of themselves with Iris being shown to do nothing wrong.

Iris not coming to realization how to advance further and achieve her goals is causing her development to stop dead in its tracks preventing it from going forward.

That's because the writers haven't portrayed Iris as having any flaws, doing any mistakes, and that they've already shown her to be a very knowledgeable and capable trainer, and already having all the capacities of a Dragon Master. There's nowhere for her to go because the writer have cut off any and all avenues of developement with her character. Not even content with that, they're also using Iris to stunt the developement of other storylines, like Satoshi and Shooti.

You seem to be under impression how if someone is confident and capable as person(with Iris being portrayed as such) he cannot develop and grow anymore which is ultimately wrong and can be proven wrong by dozen of examples in literature.

There is more than one way to develop a character and more than one role a character can play, but the writers have already decided on the role Iris is playing in Best Wishes, as the pathos provider. I also agree that characters that are already knowledgeable, capable, strong in their field CAN be developed through other factors, the problem with Iris is... there are no other factors. The writers are tieing what they try to pass of as developement to her pokémon and her quest, while already showing her as making no mistakes in that area, with the fault totally being rejected on her pokémon and she's just waiting for them to get their act together to match her level.

 

[Shinneth]

If you want to experiment with something new,sometimes you need to take a risk to truly know if new approach is going to work or not.For example if writers werent willing to do so with contests they would never become able to find out if this is going to work never stepping in this show.

Yes, I am very well aware of how risk-taking is involved when you're trying something new. Yes, I see how the introduction of Contests probably went through the same ordeal. The difference between the writers trying something new in AG opposed to BW is that the writers implemented the Contests in a way that showed obvious effort and a good reason for doing this in the first place. I'm keeping in mind that the writers probably knew very well that the series needed some kind of change after Johto in order to stay fresh and last four years without getting stale. Johto, despite not being the longest arc of the show, honestly felt like the longest to many fans, myself included, because there was no secondary quest alongside Ash's, and Ash's quest alone just couldn't adequately fill three to four years' worth of episodes.

Back then, I think change was pretty much necessary for the show. That didn't necessarily mean that the risks involved in Contest implementation were lower, but the writers managed to pull off a well-done major secondary quest and gave us a relatable, endearing prototype of a co-star in May. By watching her quest in AG, I could tell the writers were putting a lot of effort into making this new addition to the series the solution for keeping the show fresh. There was so much focus on it that Ash's quest honestly seemed like kind of a side-note in AG. Not that it was bad, but without a rival and Ash no longer the newb of the group, I believe it's obvious that the majority of the writers' efforts went into making the Contest arc an acceptable staple of the Pokemon anime formula. And for me, it worked. It was very enjoyable and though it was definitely not perfect (I agree that May's BS wins were mostly due to the fact that Contests were still a new concept and the writers wanted to glorify it as much as possible), it was truly a testament to the writers improving more and more as time went by, which was even more evident in DP's rendition of Pokemon Contests. The writers were still putting a lot of effort into DP's Contest arc to rectify the mistakes made in AG (in a way, I see May admitting her battling style being too similar to Ash's being sort of a meta message for what was probably the main flaw of how the writers handled AG Contests) as well as doing their best to make Dawn distinguishable from May, since many fans weren't thrilled of the prospect of another Coordinator at first. While I personally didn't enjoy Dawn's story as much as I did May's, it was still a very cohesive story from beginning to end, Dawn was a relatable character just as May was and things were justified.

So with Contests gone in Gen V and no one wanting a third Coordinator in Ash's posse, this was the only part of the show's formula that needed a change in my opinion. However, I don't believe the need for change was as dire as it was a decade ago. DP pretty much perfected the co-star formula with Ash and Dawn (no doubt the best way to stretch the anime out for 4 years without getting horrifically stale), but for whatever reason the writers decided to go back to basics by giving only Ash the center stage. While I don't oppose that decision, I do think it wasn't really necessary because I don't believe the co-star formula had gotten worn out or anything.

A lot of my speculation for the motives behind the creative decisions of BW are just educated guesses, admittedly, since it's pretty apparent that BW's pace is much faster than DP's, and since we don't know what else is in store for us in Gen V as of now, we can't hazard a guess how they'll stretch BW out to four years if they keep at the pace they're going now (seriously, we could be through 5 gyms by the end of this year). But the rushed pace does explain why BW has no co-star, which relegates Iris and Cilan to sidekick roles. That's another reason why it doesn't bother me that the writers decided to make Iris a sidekick.

However, what the creative staff is doing with BW largely lacks rhyme or reason to it. Contests were brought in because the show direly needed a fresh concept, and since effort was put in to said concept, Contests were well-accepted additions to the anime. With BW, they changed a lot more than the status quo and axing the secondary quest; changes that weren't necessary to keep the show fresh, and because of the lazy handling of these changes, it results in poor writing that leaves us with many unjustified characters and events. These were risks that didn't need to be taken (the way I see it) and consequently they aren't paying off.

All in all, I praise the writers for trying something new when it's needed and when they do a good job with it. The vast majority of the changes made in BW, regardless of their ambitions, are lazily handled and greatly impede my ability to enjoy the show. Yes, I know you don't see it that way and other people probably see it that way, but I'm talking about me here; I'm not speaking for anyone else and I'm not passing off what I'm saying as a fact. My point is that I don't give praise that easily.

You say why change formula and repair something which isnt broken?Sure they could use already established pattern going with Iris through predictable route and way her character is going to be developed,just like thy could keep contests going with third coordinator in a row,.

I'm pretty sure nobody here wanted a third coordinator. That's the only part of the formula that did warrant a change, especially since Contests are absent in the Black & White games. But it's very evident that the BW series as a whole skewed their how-to-run-a-series formula way more than they needed to. I'm sure that was the intention, since the games themselves have a similar feel to it, but I think the anime went way overboard in their attempt to replicate it.

And for the record, predictability isn't always a bad thing. This is a kids show and always has been, so predictability will always be present in Pokemon no matter what series we're in. But predictability rarely hampers my ability to enjoy the series as long as it's pulled off well. Like it's predictable that Ash will beat 8 Gym Leaders and qualify for the region's league; that's painfully obvious, but as long as the battles are enjoyable, then predictability really isn't any issue here. We all knew Ash and Paul's rivalry would be resolved by Ash defeating Paul in the end, but that didn't affect how expertly-handled the rivalry was from beginning to end. We knew that every Pokemon that had incompatibility issues with their trainers would eventually be won over, but that doesn't affect the quality of that level of character development.

The series' determination to not make Iris "predictable" has so far not done her any favors from what I've seen. All of these plot twists that reveal Iris being anything but what you'd expect her to be (given her behavior before these big reveals contradict it and it's never adequately explained) just make her harder to comprehend... and consequently, harder to like. Even some Iris fans admit that the Excadrill subplot was not well-handled, and a lot of that was due to the fact that it didn't follow the so-called "predictable" phases of this sort of subplot. To be established in an early episode, then barely mentioned in a six-month (our time) gap before it's addressed again and simultaneously resolved in a rushed manner is a prime example of the lazy writing I'm talking about. And initially, when I looked through the episode review thread, this was initially praised. Why was it praised? For being different.

No real reason other than that. Just that it was different from the Ash/Charizard and Dawn/Mamoswine scenarios. But being different does not automatically make anything good.

Its for same reason why people started becoming sick of character replacing for example becoming more and more unpopular among fandom with people wanting twists and something unexpected finding current formula to be stale and pointless.

You're like the only person I've ever seen who's hated the entire concept of shuffling the main cast between series. But that's because everyone else I've seen who's bitter over Misty being axed off the show don't seem to care one way or the other about May, Dawn, Max, or Tracey's departures - I don't consider that the same thing as hating the whole concept. Point is, I don't think that statement holds a lot of weight. Aside from that, anyone expecting complex plot twists out of this show clearly forgot what kind of show Pokemon is.

but credit should be given to writers of being inspired and brave enough to try something new.

Only if they're doing a good job with it, which I don't believe they are. Most of the time it doesn't feel like the writers are trying because of the lack of effort being put into justifying so many of these changes. And I don't like to give props for laziness, honestly.

Which is fine but at same time people opinions who find Iris being good character with writers doing something right with her should be respected as well with anti side trying to understand from where they are coming from instead of disregarding everything they said becoming at times how to say obtrusive with their own opinions. Like you said there is no right or wrong in here with both sides bringing up their own views having justified reasons for liking and disliking character.

I'll reply to this more thoroughly in a VM or something since I don't want to risk getting off-track and end up with another penalty, but I can assure this is something myself, Hellion, and everyone else who dislikes Iris who's voiced their opinions here at one point or another have understood from the very beginning.

 

[CommanderPigg]

As yet another reminder in this thread, please refer only to the show when posting arguments. DO NOT make general stabs or comments about any particular group in the fandom or at specific members. This will result in an infraction. Thank you.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

But you're proving my point. Again.

I'm arguing against the idea that Iris being shown to be active and capable of some acrobatic prowess suddenly makes her an "Action Girl", since those skills rarely play a part in the resolution of episodes. More often than not, she's talks her way out of problems; she plays medic; she's the "emotional"/"spiritual" component of the main cast, basically, she's a Faux Action Girl, suffering from the same flaws as characters from other series that were mentioned above.

Iris skills and knowledge about dragon types helped to resolution of BW 30th episode making Amy more capable as trainer aswell merit going to her for Axew learning dragon rage thanks to invested effort prior to that.

Iris being able to admit her own fault of not understanding Excadrill feelings allowed for bond between trainer and pokemon to become established again helping him to learn focus blast.

Her curiosity and some sort of "sixth sense"contributed to resolution of plot in BW 14 episode by revealing true cause behind Yamask getting angry.
Iris is also displaying her knowledge about pokemon battling in general on frequent basis being active in one way or another in other episodes which doesnt focus on her despite not battling.

Having team full of disobedient and unstable pokemon doesnt make her faux action girl with her activity being decreased because of limited number of options she had on her disposal.If she had obedient pokmon from start she would battle little more presumably.

Exactly, again you're proving my point. She's there to encourage Emmy, you're constantly reminded throughout the episode that she's knowledgeable, confident, capable, but when it comes down to it... Emmy and Satoshi are doing the heavy lifting while Iris watches, and only when Team Rocket's pokémon are down does she actually get on the action, but does nothing as Team Rocket escape.

Faux action girl is usually someone who is showed in competent light being knowledgeable and capable without displaying those qualities when situation calls for it.
This dosnt apply to Iris in this episode considering how:
a)she helped Amy to grow as trainer utilizing her knowledge and understanding about dragon types when teaching her how to properly battle with Druddigon,identifying dragon rage etc
b)didnt stand on sidelines actually helping to resolution of plot indirectly with merit going to her because of dragon trainer being able to battle with her pokemon properly
c)being active when trying to save Axew and Druddigon from TR as well credit going to her because of Axew mastering dragon rage.

Her pokemon being able to learn new attack is testament to her skills as dragon trainer and knowledge about them thanks to her patient approach when training dragon types knowing what is best way to raise them which she shared with Amy.

In order for character to be active he doesnt need always to risk his life and battle with there existing many other ways through which he can contribute.

Not at all. The entire episode portrays Doryuuzu misunderstanding Iris's encouragements, and that's what Dento's saying, but then, after losing, Doryuuzu realizes she had cared all along and that she was right about training harder after a loss. Basically, this episode was a tribute at how Doryuuzu was wrong about Iris, with Iris being shown as doing nothing wrong, and that any other trainer that cares about his pokémon would have acted the same way she did. She apologizes for something that Dento has already told her isn't her fault.

Your reading between lines in here.It was also revealed how Iris was unable to read her pokemon feelings properly not understanding when its time to stop causing Excadrill to lose faith in his trainer not wanting to disappoint her anymore,.

Iris flaw was in fact of not understanding her pokemon feelings well enough to prevent Excadrilll from becoming disobedient in first place as well being unable to figure out what was problem for all this years.She knew something wasnt done right but never came to realization what was root of problem.
Fact that Dento needed to point out what was cause of problem showed how little Iris actually knew about her pokemon being unable to understand Excadrill feelings being willing to admit how it was her fault of not knowing better.

That right here was treated as her flaw having a lot to learn in that aspect.

But neither Doryuuzu or Emonga are/were disobedient because of Iris, but because of themselves with Iris being shown to do nothing wrong.

One doesnt exclude the other.
Iris lack of authority and too passive approach of not being strong enough is causing Emolga to do whatever she please,while with Excadrill her failure to understand his feelings caused that problem happens in first place.

That's because the writers haven't portrayed Iris as having any flaws, doing any mistakes, and that they've already shown her to be a very knowledgeable and capable trainer, and already having all the capacities of a Dragon Master. There's nowhere for her to go because the writer have cut off any and all avenues of developement with her character.

Explained below.

Not even content with that, they're also using Iris to stunt the developement of other storylines, like Satoshi and Shooti.

Care to explain?

There is more than one way to develop a character and more than one role a character can play, but the writers have already decided on the role Iris is playing in Best Wishes, as the pathos provider.

And thy have done more or less successful job for me growing found of her character after her caring side was exposed restoring long time lost connection with Excadrill providing nice emotional touch to whole resolution.

Granted it was rushed not being done excellently but i actually started to care more for Iris character.
As expected this wont leave same impression on everyone with you not finding anything appealing or worthy to root for but that doesnt apply to everyone.

I also agree that characters that are already knowledgeable, capable, strong in their field CAN be developed through other factors, the problem with Iris is... there are no other factors. The writers are tieing what they try to pass of as developement to her pokémon and her quest, while already showing her as making no mistakes in that area, with the fault totally being rejected on her pokémon and she's just waiting for them to get their act together to match her level.

Im not sure from where you get such impression but each of problems surrounding Iris pokemon is in one way or another connected with her character with problems deriving from her as well.

Factors through which she can be developed further are:
-not being able to understand her pokemon feelings properly which often leads to mistakes being made as mole example showed.
-lack of authority and too passive approach when it comes to train her own pokemon
-rather high doze of immaturity not being able to take herself any critic.

Through problems which are ignited by her pokemon and character itself Iris can grow in sense of becoming more experienced trainer leaning how to understand her pokemon properly becoming closer with them,learning how to accept constrictive critic not viewing it as personal attack but way of someone providing his help becoming more mature,finding in what way she can accomplish her dram if becoming dragon master becoming more confident in her abilities as trainer as well becoming more knowledgeable in general.

Iris may have showed talent and some knowledge when it comes to her skill as trainer but it will take a lot more than that in order to catch up with Drayden and become dragon master one day as well fulfilling tasks of evolving Axew.
She still has alot to learn how to improve more as trainer just like this applies to any other character.

Yes, I am very well aware of how risk-taking is involved when you're trying something new. Yes, I see how the introduction of Contests probably went through the same ordeal. The difference between the writers trying something new in AG opposed to BW is that the writers implemented the Contests in a way that showed obvious effort and a good reason for doing this in the first place.

Its not like writers havent invested effort in making changes which happened in BW justified and better defined as well.Difference between AG and Unova is that in this case writers are trying to implement changes through several minor plots and components as opposed to one big change like contests were in Hoenn back than.,

Like with Iris situation for example.I know you disagree with this but i find their attempt of keeping her storyline hide compared to previous girl examples where all plots were revealed relatively early to be more or less successfully done making her character to stand out/be different from others.

They purposely waited with her goal and problems with her pokemon being revealed introducing hints which had ambiguous meaning leaving audience to interpret it in their own way serving as some sort of foreplay.
Same with problems surrounding her pokemon,they portrayed it in manner of making it seem like problems are deriving both from them and Iris as trainer herself drawing parallel/connection between her and their flaws.

Like with Excadrill for example,some may get impression how problem was only caused by himself because of not wanting to disappoint its trainer but as its been revealed Iris had connection with it being partially responsible as well considering how she failed to understand her own pokemon feelings not knowing when its time to stop which caused such state of things.

Johto, despite not being the longest arc of the show, honestly felt like the longest to many fans, myself included, because there was no secondary quest alongside Ash's, and Ash's quest alone just couldn't adequately fill three to four years' worth of episodes.

Problem with Johto wasnt so much in lack of second quest but more in fact of writers at that time being inexperienced with several things not knowing how to handle things properly.This was their first longer saga which needed to be stretched for 3 years finding themselves in front of a wall.
They had workable group of main characters which was already iconic and popular but unfortunately they didnt used them to full potential not having enough knowledge to execute storyline in proper manner while giving more of arole to other characters beside Ash which would gave effectively reduce number of fillers making plot more coherent.

So with Contests gone in Gen V and no one wanting a third Coordinator in Ash's posse, this was the only part of the show's formula that needed a change in my opinion. However, I don't believe the need for change was as dire as it was a decade ago. DP pretty much perfected the co-star formula with Ash and Dawn (no doubt the best way to stretch the anime out for 4 years without getting horrifically stale), but for whatever reason the writers decided to go back to basics by giving only Ash the center stage. While I don't oppose that decision, I do think it wasn't really necessary because I don't believe the co-star formula had gotten worn out or anything.

Co-star role may have had some potential left in it to try it out for another region but fact of the matter is how pokemon anime is in reality just one giant marketing tool through which new games are being promoted.

Most of changes which happened in anime is result of BW games experiencing several adjustments and changes making it as more of a fresh start than it was case before.
With writers attempt of mirroring games this was probably reason behind Brock being axed and new character getting added as well contests being gone with formula going back to Ash as only co-star with two gym leaders/supporting characters)being his companions.

A lot of my speculation for the motives behind the creative decisions of BW are just educated guesses, admittedly, since it's pretty apparent that BW's pace is much faster than DP's, and since we don't know what else is in store for us in Gen V as of now, we can't hazard a guess how they'll stretch BW out to four years if they keep at the pace they're going now (seriously, we could be through 5 gyms by the end of this year).

I gather how there will most likely be made some filler arc similar to how Battle Frontier was after Unova ends in order to fill up gap until new games get released.
I doubt BW will manage to last for four years,especially with current pacing which is considerably faster compared to get go DP.

However, what the creative staff is doing with BW largely lacks rhyme or reason to it. Contests were brought in because the show direly needed a fresh concept, and since effort was put in to said concept, Contests were well-accepted additions to the anime. With BW, they changed a lot more than the status quo and axing the secondary quest; changes that weren't necessary to keep the show fresh, and because of the lazy handling of these changes, it results in poor writing that leaves us with many unjustified characters and events. These were risks that didn't need to be taken (the way I see it) and consequently they aren't paying off.

As long viewers are interested in those changes welcoming them, writers new approach is in reality paying of at very end.
Pokemon anime was never some especially complex show with deep and well executed storyline being primarily made for children.However from time to time writers flourish in true sense of that word mantaining quality while making sure that their priority of show not losing entertainment value stays intact.

You may see changes like Ash catching more pokemon than usual starting to rotating them to be nus-product of poor writing but i view it as nice attempt of making Ash growth as trainer more believable allowing for bigger variety when choosing pokemon allowing for two parallel teams.
Some may find Team Rocket being taken to higher level not serving only as comic relief anymore to be terrible way from writers side but i actually appreciate how they finally get to play some important role which directly influence plot being more important.

Same with Iris and Cilan.I welcome new approach which is taken with Iris character introducing several plots which in some way or another are connected between themselves giving writers to have more options at their disposal and in what way they can take her character to develop her more which adds to overall unpredictability.

Sure some mistakes and rushed development is expected to follow after something new is for first time being tried out but so far writers did more good than bad in my opinion making Unova series to be acceptable from my point of view.

And for the record, predictability isn't always a bad thing. This is a kids show and always has been, so predictability will always be present in Pokemon no matter what series we're in. But predictability rarely hampers my ability to enjoy the series as long as it's pulled off well. Like it's predictable that Ash will beat 8 Gym Leaders and qualify for the region's league; that's painfully obvious, but as long as the battles are enjoyable, then predictability really isn't any issue here.

Agreed,but its much more desired if its harder to expect what will happen next in this show adding to overall enjoyment especially if some suspense is being build from start.

Thats why i liked Orange Islands,it was completely anime exclusive arc not existing anywhere in games allowing writers to release their creativity with whole concept of gym leaders,league and region location being something new and unexpected being hard to tell what you can expect next.Compared to game regions where you can get some rough picture of possible future outcomes being needed in that case to add some twists in already established routine which anime needs to follow in order to keep audience interested in it.

The series' determination to not make Iris "predictable" has so far not done her any favors from what I've seen. All of these plot twists that reveal Iris being anything but what you'd expect her to be (given her behavior before these big reveals contradict it and it's never adequately explained) just make her harder to comprehend... and consequently, harder to like.
Even some Iris fans admit that the Excadrill subplot was not well-handled, and a lot of that was due to the fact that it didn't follow the so-called "predictable" phases of this sort of subplot.

Depends how you look at it,personally i find several plots in her story which overlap with each other to be writers attempt of making her story more complex giving more substance to it.
And as far as Iris behavior goes i like her hyperactive and energetic nature being somehow wild and invasive about pokemon but also showing to have caring side and "good heart"which can be noticed in her express of feelings toward Excadrill and Axew,going out of her way to save Emolga as well starting to respect Ash as trainer more using her catchphrase less often in his case with friendship within her and main group gradually growing.

I will agree how Excadrill plot was rushed with writers cramping too many things in too short period of time but final product of it was executed well imo successfully re-establishing bond between Iris and pokemon giving it some development.
Maybe its not visible on first glance but some growth contrary to some belief did happened in it.

You're like the only person I've ever seen who's hated the entire concept of shuffling the main cast between series.

I dont hate it,i just find it pointless and unneeded.
As for other question,many feel that way preferring keeping instead of shuffling just not being very vocal about it in here while being opposite in some other places.

Only if they're doing a good job with it, which I don't believe they are. Most of the time it doesn't feel like the writers are trying because of the lack of effort being put into justifying so many of these changes. And I don't like to give props for laziness, honestly.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on this.

 

[Hellion]

Iris skills and knowledge about dragon types helped to resolution of BW 30th episode

Exactly, the entire episodes shows us that Iris is a capable knowledgeable trainer, but when it comes time to take part in some actual action, Iris is nowhere to be seen, with Ash and Emmy doing the heavy lifting. Ergo, Faux Action Girl.

Her curiosity and some sort of "sixth sense"contributed to resolution of plot in BW 14 episode by revealing true cause behind Yamask getting angry.

While the men and Aloe fight, Iris tries to talks things out. Ergo Faux Action Girl.

Iris is also displaying her knowledge about pokemon battling in general on frequent basis being active in one way or another in other episodes which doesnt focus on her despite not battling.

Ergo Faux Action Girl. All the examples provided actually prove that Iris isn't a real Action Girl, but more often then not, the typical anime Chick character.

If she had obedient pokmon from start she would battle little more presumably.

And yet she didn't battle in the episodes following BW036.

It was also revealed how Iris was unable to read her pokemon feelings properly not understanding when its time to stop causing Excadrill to lose faith in his trainer not wanting to disappoint her anymore,.

Absolutely not. It's the exact opposite that was portrayed as happening throughout the episode. Doryuuzu didn't stop obeying Iris because she misunderstood him; he stopped because he misunderstood Iris.

In the episode, Dento says to Iris that Doryuuzu stopped trusting Iris, not that Iris had done something that made Doryuuzu stop trusting him. Nobody at the scene treated was Iris had done as wrong. The episode thoroughly portrayed Iris as caring, encouraging, and hammered the point that Doryuuzu realized that Iris had been right the whole time. He realizes that he was wrong when he realizes that Iris had cared about him the whole time.

Iris lack of authority and too passive approach of not being strong enough is causing Emolga to do whatever she please

No. Emonga would have disobeyed no matter whom had caught it.

Care to explain?

Already did several times, the writers using Iris to spark confrontations between Shooti and Satoshi stunts the developpement of both those characters and that rivalry. Shooti seems more interested in Iris and battling her than he is in battling Satoshi. They're having her hijack that storyline and since none of her storyline can provide developpement... She just stops the story dead in its track in whichever storyline she's inserted in. If she's not hijacking, she's making stank faces on the sidelines... Neither of which is actually endearing me to her character.

Basically, she's not living to the Action Girl status the writers seemed to originally want her to have, making her fall prey to the SHS (Sakura Haruno Syndrome), none of her storylines derive from her flaws or problems, she stunts other characters' developement... The intentions of the writers are good, as they seemed to want to make into a sidekick, Action Girl, with problems coming from her which she would struggle to overcome making the audience root for them, and she'd have minor interaction with other characters that lets them grow and develop. That would have been nice, but in the execution, the writers failed to deliver on each and every single one of those things, and that's the problem in a nutshell.

 

[Karpi]

I am reserving judgement on Iris until after the tournament arc is over. This is where she will make or break it. She can fall early and ultimately take the disappointing sidekick role, or she can prove to be a legitimate threat. For that to happen they need to show Axew dying horribly every time she uses it, Emolga being a varying degree of usefulness, and then ultimately Excadrill doing most of the fighting in every round she's in.

Iris can become a good character here IF she is allowed to be a serious battler and Excadrill is shown to be miles ahead of her other pokemon and thus starting a subplot with her training other pokemon.

 

[Masurao]

Hopefully the writers don't do any bad moves with her Pokemon in this tournament. Excadrill is already done development wise for the most part, it doesn't really have anything else it can really do. All Emolga needs is to obey and it's more or less done as well, which I really hope doesn't come sudden in this tournament. Axew is her only Pokemon that really needs any kind of development. While I do hope it evolves, I don't want it to happen in this upcoming tournament.

 

[Cybersai]

I'm trying to figure out where Iris will place myself. I do think she'll win at least one battle, but I am not sure she'll make it past the second round.

Either way, she's likely not to have too big a role in the tournament arc.

 

[Hellion]

Answering as it pertains more to the character than the episode itself.

Anyway, OMG how could a Mary Sue like Iris lose? Seriously? So wait, Iris loses early on, no development. Iris gets far possibly to finals, no development either? Wow, that some baffling logic some of you have.

I've said this before, but winning battles or having a very strong pokémon isn't what makes or doesn't make someone a Mary Sue. Again, those are traits, but whether or not they make the character a Mary Sue has to do with whether or not they stunt any possible development, and if they break the story. In the Doryuuzu episode, Iris didn't develop at all because the episode was about Doryuuzu realizing it had been wrong about Iris all along. That she had cared, and that she'd been right all along. They only thing she learned is that Doryuuzu had been wrong about her, but she didn't fix any problem, no change in attitude, no development to her.

The same thing is likely to happen here with Emonga. The problem falls solely on Emonga's shoulders, where she will realize that her attitude was wrong and that she should be better for Iris cause Iris is apparantly always caring, and always right. Iris never antagonized Emonga, never was angered by Emonga, all in all was never vulnerable, which in turn really doesn't allow her to struggle to overcome problems, which in turn fails to get me to root for her character, fails to develop her.

Now, if Emonga was the only storyline that was like this, I wouldn't even use the term Mary Sue, but it's also Doryuuzu; it's also Kibago where she already knows everything about dragons, and already knows how to sense and communicate with them, so she's just waiting for Kibago to match her skills; it's also the storylines she stunts, like the Satoshi/Shooti rivalry; it's also that the writers really haven't given anything really positive about Iris, as she isn't really nice, she's a Debbie Downer, she's immature, she rarely does anything, she doesn't hesitate to put her pokémon in harm's way consciously hurting them, and yet no one calls her out on it, everyone still thinks she's awesome, except Langley who's portray as the bitch from hell who's a glorified plot to make Iris look good as opposed to the writers actually showing some good sides to both characters. And that doesn't just extend to her, but also to her pokémon. Tsutarja used to have a great personality, good interactions with Satoshi and other pokémon on his team, but now she's pretty much treated only as Emonga's prop by the writers, stunting any possible development.

So yeah, while I wouldn't call Iris a Mary Sue just yet, the recent episodes that focused on her and what we now of the upcoming arc is just confirming that trend.

 

[Necrozma]

I've said this before, but winning battles or having a very strong pokémon isn't what makes or doesn't make someone a Mary Sue. Again, those are traits, but whether or not they make the character a Mary Sue has to do with whether or not they stunt any possible development, and if they break the story. In the Doryuuzu episode, Iris didn't develop at all because the episode was about Doryuuzu realizing it had been wrong about Iris all along. That she had cared, and that she'd been right all along. They only thing she learned is that Doryuuzu had been wrong about her, but she didn't fix any problem, no change in attitude, no development to her.

I'm not gonna repeat this again 'cuz you have your opinion and I have mine. And while you think Iris didn't receive any development, I think she did. Stepping up and admitting you made a mistake is a great character development. And YES, she did something wrong since she was unable to understand the meotions of her Pokémon. But there's no point in discussing this with you, nothing ever changes.

The same thing is likely to happen here with Emonga. The problem falls solely on Emonga's shoulders, where she will realize that her attitude was wrong and that she should be better for Iris cause Iris is apparantly always caring, and always right. Iris never antagonized Emonga, never was angered by Emonga, all in all was never vulnerable, which in turn really doesn't allow her to struggle to overcome problems, which in turn fails to get me to root for her character, fails to develop her.

What's there to root for? Should she cry about it? It's a fact that Iris hasn't done anything about Emonga ever since, which episode exactly? The very fact Iris is unable to or that she doesn't even try to make Emonga listen to her is a flaw on its own and the development she'll receive will be development for sure. But just like the case was with Doryuuzu, we all see things differently in our eyes.

Now, if Emonga was the only storyline that was like this, I wouldn't even use the term Mary Sue, but it's also Doryuuzu; it's also Kibago where she already knows everything about dragons, and already knows how to sense and communicate with them, so she's just waiting for Kibago to match her skills; it's also the storylines she stunts, like the Satoshi/Shooti rivalry; it's also that the writers really haven't given anything really positive about Iris, as she isn't really nice, she's a Debbie Downer, she's immature, she rarely does anything, she doesn't hesitate to put her pokémon in harm's way consciously hurting them, and yet no one calls her out on it, everyone still thinks she's awesome, except Langley who's portray as the bitch from hell who's a glorified plot to make Iris look good as opposed to the writers actually showing some good sides to both characters. And that doesn't just extend to her, but also to her pokémon.

Oh God, you had to mention Langley? Langley is a bitch and I love that. Her rivalry with Iris is far more exciting than the rivalry Dawn had, for example with Nando, Zoey and Kenny. The very fact it entertains the hell out of me and bunch of other people counts in my book, one can call it shallow, but better to have an entertaining and shallow rivalry rather than a developed and a boring one. Of course, the former might be just as well boring to a person who dislikes a certain character.

So yeah, while I wouldn't call Iris a Mary Sue just yet, the recent episodes that focused on her and what we now of the upcoming arc is just confirming that trend.

And again, that's what you think.

 

[Hellion]

Stepping up and admitting you made a mistake is a great character development.

Except she didn't make a mistake. No one in the episode, not even Iris, has said or implied that Iris did a mistake, not even Doryuuzu who realizes she was right all along and that he was wrong. There's absolutely no character development since there's no change to the character. Iris remained the same as she always was, because she was proven right on all points.

It's a fact that Iris hasn't done anything about Emonga ever since, which episode exactly?

She was shown to be willing to train Emonga, wanting to battle alongside Emonga, but Emonga's attitude got in the way. The problem is coming solely from Emonga and Emonga will be the sole character to develop.

Langley is a bitch and I love that.

I love a bitchy character, a three-dimensional, well-conceived bitchy character that can stand on its own, develop, help other characters develop, while remaining snarky, bitchy and humourous. Problem is, Langley isn't any of that. The sad thing is, Langley has the potential to be a great character, because there are traits in her that could be developped, to make her more three-dimensional had the writers not been Iris-centric in conceiving her character, but right now, they're using her as a prop to make Iris look good, which once again shows Iris stunting other characters' development.

So far, the only two problematic rivalries on the shows... are the two that Iris is involved in, Iris/Langley and Satoshi/Shooti, because she stunts every possible development in those. When you think about it, Cabernet wasn't conceived as a Dento-centric character, even though there's a lot of tension between the two and he's her main motivation, and yet the writers took the time to make her interact with other characters, stand on her own, and show a vulnerable side, so that even if she's a psycho, she's a loveable psycho. XD Same for Bel and Satoshi, Bel stands on her own, isn't there as a prop to Satoshi, she's got her own problems and her own hilarious interactions with Satoshi and Dento. But with Iris/Langley, Langley cannot stand as her own character, and she's effectively there to be Iris' prop, and then there's how the writers have all but made the Shooti/Satoshi rivalry all about Iris, stunting any possible development that could come from it.

Really, the more recent episodes sadly give more and more weight to the Iris is a Mary Sue idea.

 

[Necrozma]

Except she didn't make a mistake. No one in the episode, not even Iris, has said or implied that Iris did a mistake, not even Doryuuzu who realizes she was right all along and that he was wrong. There's absolutely no character development since there's no change to the character. Iris remained the same as she always was, because she was proven right on all points.

Let's assume Iris did not make a mistake, Iris from BW002 and BW003 would have never admitted such thing. She would just call her Doryuuzu a kid and give up. After Dento told her that she made a mistake, Iris swallowed her pride and apologized herself. ^^

She was shown to be willing to train Emonga, wanting to battle alongside Emonga, but Emonga's attitude got in the way. The problem is coming solely from Emonga and Emonga will be the sole character to develop.

The first time we saw Emonga after 10 episodes was in BW035, and then we saw her in BW039 where she disobeyed Iris again. In the episodes before that we didn't even see Iris send her out and try to do something about it. My conclusion: if Iris were such a good trainer as everyone claim she would have no issues making Emonga listen to her in no time.

I love a bitchy character, a three-dimensional, well-conceived bitchy character that can stand on its own, develop, help other characters develop, while remaining snarky, bitchy and humourous. Problem is, Langley isn't any of that. The sad thing is, Langley has the potential to be a great character, because there are traits in her that could be developped, to make her more three-dimensional had the writers not been Iris-centric in conceiving her character, but right now, they're using her as a prop to make Iris look good, which once again shows Iris stunting other characters' development.

So far, the only two problematic rivalries on the shows... are the two that Iris is involved in, Iris/Langley and Satoshi/Shooti, because she stunts every possible development in those. When you think about it, Cabernet wasn't conceived as a Dento-centric character, even though there's a lot of tension between the two and he's her main motivation, and yet the writers took the time to make her interact with other characters, stand on her own, and show a vulnerable side, so that even if she's a psycho, she's a loveable psycho. XD Same for Bel and Satoshi, Bel stands on her own, isn't there as a prop to Satoshi, she's got her own problems and her own hilarious interactions with Satoshi and Dento. But with Iris/Langley, Langley cannot stand as her own character, and she's effectively there to be Iris' prop, and then there's how the writers have all but made the Shooti/Satoshi rivalry all about Iris, stunting any possible development that could come from it.

And again, all of this doesn't matter because their rivalry entertains me. ^^

 

[Hellion]

Let's assume Iris did not make a mistake

She didn't, nor did Dento tell her she did. Dento hints that Iris didn't understand that Doryuuzu was wrong about her, that Doryuuzu had not understood her. And therefore, there's absolutely no change in her personality, nor is there any development.

In the episodes before that we didn't even see Iris send her out and try to do something about it.

We did in BW028, where it was shown that Iris cared, Iris had all the good intentions, but Emonga is refusing to listen. Meaning, the problem comes solely from Emonga, and therefore Emonga is the one that will have to change, to develop, not Iris who'll just remained the same, and that's not development, that's not making me care.

 

[Necrozma]

She didn't, nor did Dento tell her she did. Dento hints that Iris didn't understand that Doryuuzu was wrong about her, that Doryuuzu had not understood her. And therefore, there's absolutely no change in her personality, nor is there any development.

An immature brat admitted that she made a mistake. You think she didn't make a mistake, so what? She still admitted under the belief she had. Although our opinions whether she has or hasn't done a mistake differ, she did develop and that's a fact.

 

[Shinneth]

Let's assume Iris did not make a mistake, Iris from BW002 and BW003 would have never admitted such thing. She would just call her Doryuuzu a kid and give up. After Dento told her that she made a mistake, Iris swallowed her pride and apologized herself. ^^

Uh, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Iris end up calling Excadrill a kid by the end of that episode anyway?

 

[Hellion]

she did develop and that's a fact.

Then what's the change? There's none. All her opinions about how to train Doryuuzu were proven right, she was cleared of any fault in the problem which was shown and stated to be Doryuuzu's fault.

Doryuuzu changed, Doryuuzu realized he had made a mistake, Doryuuzu developed, but Iris stayed exactly the same, being portrayed not only as someone who had learned nothing, but as someone who had nothing to learn since she had been right all along.