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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

Discussion in 'Pokémon Anime and Manga' started by Pokemaster Justin, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. Duke Spubber

    Duke Spubber New Member

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    One of the things that always pisses me off about Kanto (which I wonder if Dogasu will talk about whenever he does "Pallet Party Panic") was how Pidgeotto was just kind of thrown aside once the starters entered the story. On one hand I can kind of understand since the battles here are slightly more "realistic" than what they'll become post-Johto, but Pidgeotto getting the shaft over and over again really annoyed me all throughout the saga. And its most significant victory was not only downplayed, but happened in a way that's just as BS as Pikachu electrocuting a Ground-type. So when this episode had that whole TR subplot that seemed to exist JUST to tire out Pidgeotto and force Ash to use Charizard, that was the last straw regarding this League for me.

    Back when Season 2 first started airing, I had seen some clips of the Orange Islands and found out that Ash wouldn't be facing the Elite Four, so I figured he'd lose at some point along the way. I was racking my brain trying to figure out how Ash could conceivably win against Lance or Agatha with his blah team, so seeing him lose was more of a relief in my mind than anything.

    I think the whole "Don't blame the characters, blame the writer!" is a bit wrong, though. By blaming Team Rocket taking up so much time and wearing out Ash's Pokémon, people pretty much ARE blaming the writers.

    One thing I will give the ref credit is DQing Charizard. I mean, it literally refused to get up and battle, and likely wouldn't have unless Ritchie attacked it. You refuse to compete, you lose.

    Something I've always wondered about this arc though: Who's watching the lab? The Professor doesn't have an assistant yet, so who's feeding all the Pokémon? Also, how did Ash send Muk and Kingler back to the lab if there's no one there to receive the Poké Ball?
     
    #2961 Duke Spubber, Dec 29, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2017
  2. jennytablina

    jennytablina New Member

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    While I don't think 4Kids is entirely innocent - I feel like they never entirely cared about properties they dubbed enough for actually hate their origins or anything. I mean considering their later history, they clearly did deeply believe that the success of their shows depended on localizing them not just for sake of audience comprehension - but also so they were Americanized (westernized certainly isn't the case - 4Kids did themselves much a disservice in other English speaking regions by using very US-centric references in their other shows which made them completely tank in other places)

    I don't think they were so much xenophobic as they were just underestimating their audience and more focused on making $$ They played themselves really by making poor business decisions based on that over time. For a time the stupid was likely reigned in because Nintendo/GF demanded a certain quality for the dub and it was 4Kids bread and butter. They needed the show, and that need stopped them going too silly for a time.

    Then compare to final year of 4Kids contract where they did plain bonkers things like the giant sub sandwich, and pretty much just throwing the whole script out the window for a majority of "Pokemon Chronicles" . They were at their height arguably at this point, and the stupid edits had already started happening with One Piece and Tokyo Mew Mew. In comparison to those shows, they were rather restrained with Pokemon - but the lax approach seeped into Pokemon too. Because they were at a point where they didn't feel the show needed the priority given to it so much anymore. Thus losing the contract as TPCi decided they could do it better on their own.

    I did love the strong japanese cultural references in Kanto, I think one thing the series could of done going forward was to base each region on a real world culture and then use that 5 minute slot to discuss it. (ie. after The Girls Day episode, a short film on the real-world version like Mysterious Cities of Gold did for Inca culture, covers the E/I stipulation and saves work!) - They did sort of have the idea with Orange Islands (but everything is like a made up festival and event rather than really based on anything real...) but Johto really lost this aspect and everything became more generic.

    I mean in general it feels like at the beginning up to "Porygon-shock" they were focused on this Japanese-based world-building. Then the event happened, and they got a bit of a bum-kicking and told they needed to also think about making a show more favourable to an international audience with the global launch coming soon after the hiatus lifted. So these real cultural festivals outside Christmas get chucked out & then we get Orange Islands with mostly made up traditions and festivals.
     
  3. technickal

    technickal Member

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    I already agreed with Dogasu on Ash losing making sense but being poorly executed. I have more mixed feelings on Ritchie though. I think what they were going for with him was a more down-to-earth rival to Ash on equal footing with him, compared to Gary who was already way ahead of him. But doesn’t that make him even less believable in a way...? I mean, they were hyping up the battle at the end of the last episode as a test of friendship between the two, but he literally didn’t know him any longer than your average CoTD. I understand that they didn’t want to make him a Gary lite, but I do think it would be better if he was introduced earlier in the League arc like the other rivals.

    The dub continues to vary the quality of its edits from “meh”-tier to “actually pretty funny”-tier to “what the heck did they find wrong with the original”-tier. And even though the original has already started to make an apparently self-imposed effort to keep the series as international-friendly as possible (“Tajirian” will show itself as early as the next episode) the 4Kids dub will mostly continue to get even looser adaptation-wise. I do think the dub is one of 4Kids’ best but it’s definitely still full of the company’s quirks, for better or worse.
     
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  4. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder New Member

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    If anything this makes me wonder why the cultural stuff had to be an issue with 4Kids. I mean if anything the Pokémon world was different enough from ours that I could see things like Riceballs, festivals and yen being associated with said setting.
     
  5. MizuTaipu

    MizuTaipu The Metal Idol

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    Congrats to you, Dogasu!!! You deserve some good rest. :)

    I'm excited for future comparisons, maybe for your sake not on a weekly basis.
     
  6. kantoskies

    kantoskies Prepare for over-used stock animation!

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    Only barely related to the new comparison but I always thought the digitally-colored Johto episodes looked like hot garbage so it's surprising to see something like this post-episode segment look pretty decent. I used to think it was just the technology and they must have gotten an upgrade for Advanced Generation but looking at stuff like these Dr. Orchid segments, OK!, and Mewtwo Returns it shows that they had the capability for making digital coloring look nice. Apparently they applied a filter to those Johto episodes to make them look more like the cel-painted episodes but it absolutely did not work and further pushes my idea that they should have made the full switch to digital in AG001.

    Anyways, good job finishing up Kanto2017 before the end of the year! If Episode Comparisons become too time-consuming you could always try an Episode Review section, kind of like the "Thoughts" sections of comparisons but expanded? I haven't really heard much of your impressions of the franchise post-BW so it would be interesting to see you talk about episodes that don't have many interesting dub edits.
     
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  7. jennytablina

    jennytablina New Member

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    I mused on the idea in my first post but it really would of had to come from a company that actually had the *passion* to put that work in or at least some motive for doing so. The example I used was a show that was a joint Japan-Europe co-production and they clearly had people on their teams passionate enough to research and make clips about lost inca cultures and paid money to film their educational segments.

    4Kids probably could of just reused clip content in show, but then the only real additional effort they put in was the "Pikachu Jukebox" segments which were just spliced episode clips with songs (on a CD you can buy kids! *shakes the coin cain*) . But they really could of saved themselves lots of paint edits by just having a segment at the end with some educational use. It's not like it's a new idea to the US as well, as a lot of shows in the 90's had a "informative" end segment

    But it's more how the dubbing industry was in 1995-2003ish - it's not like it was only 4Kids who employed the habit of taking a japanese anime show and attempting to "Americanize" it. DiC's Sailor Moon is quite horrid by todays standards, but even the cut to shreds version of Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon couldn't quite entirely hide the more mature themes of that show vs a lot of western cartoons of the time. Nelvana's treatment of Cardcaptor Sakura was even worse as core themes of the show were slashed away and episode numbers flipped about with no respect to the ongoing plot so they could rush into the "interesting stuff"

    The 2003 Astro Boy series had an interesting extra on it's DVD release detailing it's making of and dubbing process. There's quite a telling moment between the US executive team at Sony and the Japanese one in a meeting about the dub. The adaption deals a lot of Atom's desire to find belonging and his complicated relationship with his "father" Dr Tenma. The first few episodes have Atom acting like an actual child growing up, he can't talk loads, his understanding limited, but incredibly curious while also seeking comfort in a guardian figure. The US exec says to the Japanese team in the meeting about what they've seen so far "can we do away with some of this kid stuff? focus more on the action!"

    The standards being employed at this point in the dub is fairly commonplace for the time these episodes aired. The US got some luck with some shows getting "uncut" Japanese audio releases on DVD. But the rest of us had to put up with DiC or Nelvana's take on good shows to be able to follow it.
     
  8. Yash

    Yash CHOCOLATE

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    Congrats on getting through Kanto 2017, Dogasu! As someone who tried to run his own “uncensored” site back in the day, I’ve got to admire the hustle. Really appreciate the insight.

    Interesting to see that Fred Rogers quote come up - along with the xenophobia comments. Nice to see you’re keeping up with the thread!
     
  9. Charmander4

    Charmander4 Member

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    I remember watching “Here’s looking at you, Elekid” when it premiered and the jump to digital was definitely noticeable. I always thought the episodes looked like they were green or tan tinted. I kind of liked it. It got more subdued during AG and then was different season 7 or 8.
     
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  10. ii kanji

    ii kanji Rocket Cheerleader

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    Hey, fantastic job mate. Waiting for and reading your scathing reviews of the underrated 2nd half of Kanto has been such a ride this year! Hope you celebrate ringing in the New Year with some time away from this life-sucking franchise :p
     
  11. Duke Spubber

    Duke Spubber New Member

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    Even back in the day I saw that Spearow vs. Tentacool battle and said to myself: "Really? THAT'S the best you guys could come up with?"
     
  12. Yash

    Yash CHOCOLATE

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    Reminds me of this gem, some invaluable advice from the world's top authority on Pokemon:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. SammyW27

    SammyW27 Well-Known Member

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    Hey, take your time on your next project, Big D. We can wait. You accomplished something major over this year and deserve a break. You have SO much going on with personal stuff and the rest of the site we understand. There's so much more to it besides "Pokemon Uncensored". You just do what you gotta do and many of us will go with it :)

    And don't feel bad about the predictions. All things Pocket Monsters have been kind of unpredictable in recent years, so can tell what those crazy bastards will do these days.
     
    #2973 SammyW27, Jan 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  14. technickal

    technickal Member

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    The last episode was mostly light on edits, but I enjoyed reading about the subtle character differences between versions. Ash and Ritchie are a little haughtier, Misty is a little moodier and Team Rocket is a little punnier. Of course, this could be another example of 4Kids liking to exaggerate things in general, but that leads me to wonder why Delia came off as less strict in the dub. Perhaps it's a culture thing? I always got the impression that American parents were some of the strictest though. Maybe someone could shed some light on this.

    Yeah, I always thought the Spearow was Ritchie's too, though I didn't know about the eyecatch thing. I just figured that since all of Ritchie's other Pokémon – besides the Eevee that 4Kids gave him – Ash has owned or has had some connection to at some point. And Ash definitely has more of a connection to Spearow than Tentacruel. Not to mention it follows the pattern the other battle clips did: Ritchie's Pokémon first, Assunta's second.

    I am a bit disappointed to hear that you won't be working on any big comparison project anytime soon, but I can understand you being exhausted after all that time you dedicated to Kanto 2017. But this project has really gone to show how little about 4Kids' edits past early Kanto was known up until now. I don't think having changes made to a product when it's brought overseas is an inherently bad thing – far from it – but besides "jelly-filled doughnuts", they certainly weren't transparent about it. Information about the changes to the modern TPCi episodes is only a few clicks away, but there still is a lot of demand for more 4Kids comparisons. And echoing what kantoskies said, we'd love to hear your thoughts on the post-Season 14 episodes even if comparisons are mostly unnecessary.
     
  15. Yash

    Yash CHOCOLATE

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    The stereotype I've always heard is that Asian parents are extremely strict, whereas American parents are far more coddling by comparison (see the "High Expectations Asian Father" meme).

    Of course, I've known some very strict American parents as well, and I imagine there are some lax Japanese parents too.
     
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  16. Gabo2oo

    Gabo2oo Well-Known Member

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    Weird, I've always got the impression they're overprotective, and not very strict. Hence the "problem child" stereotype being more prominent in (and associated with) North American culture.
     
  17. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder New Member

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    Well, I'm more halfway about Ash losing because of Team Rocket. Cheap in that it felt like the writers couldn't demonstrate that he really wasn't ready to go further than four rounds.

    But aside from how he really made it through more with luck, it could be argued that his Pokémon wouldn't be so easily worn out if better trained.

    Regardless the Unova League loss really was another in the long line of attempts to hammer it in that Satoshi was a newbie (like say Dazzling the Nimbasa Gym), whereas the first season for the most part didn't have to go as far to sabotage the story to prove such.

    Now on that note, I have to say that Kanto's big offenders would be the fact that they felt like they had to make the Cascade and Rainbow Badges a pity handout. I mean Misty and Erika are strong enough sure, but not to the point that it's out of the realms of believability for him to get legit wins in (especially since the he was actually about to beat Misty*).

    *At least providing that recalling Staryu counted against her.
     
  18. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

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    Removing all Japanese text is silly.
    I always see English text in translated American shows.
     
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  19. ii kanji

    ii kanji Rocket Cheerleader

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    Waaah the TRio sounds like they had loads to do & were good fun in the planetarium show! :cry:



    Anyway thanks for the write-up!
     
  20. Gabo2oo

    Gabo2oo Well-Known Member

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    Nice to see the Nyarth balloon not being completely forgotten yet.