Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

In Response to "#Kanto2017" being over, from a while back, just finished reading the comparisons...

The only thing I'm surprised about at "Daily 4Kids dub bash camp while ignoring TPCi is still doing the same exact stuff you bash 4Kids for doing, be it similar kinds of script rewrites 11 years later today, still changing the Pokemon eyecatches around randomly, replacing more OST than 4Kids ever did now, still having wall-to-wall music 90% of the time, and still visually editing the dub" with #Kanto2017 here is Dogasu LIKED some of the script rewrites in "A Friend in Deed" 4Kids made (which I surprisingly agree with him on, which rarely occurs).

I find that I can also in my "cold, black heart" find value in a handful of his criticisms (which most of them are equally as flawed criticisms and nitpicks to me, after reading all of his "wretched" comparisons, just like he claims the "wretched" 4Kids dub to be).

P.S.

(a) Xenophobia is by definition, the hatred of people from other countries, not just Japan, a single country. So no, Dogasu, 4Kids has shown that in this dub, they were not xenophobic by definition of the word- they changed Japanese names of characters' to French (France), Italian (Italy), Spanish (Spain), Mexican (Mexico), and even once to the alternate Japanese name of "Otoshi" as you yourself stated. They were just making cultural changes, because they didn't know how accepted Japanese culture would be in the Western world back in the late 90s/early 00s, which many kids' Anime dubbers did too at the time, not just them.

Also, if 4Kids was so "xenophobic," how come they kept more of the Japanese OST than TPCi has in the last 4 years in both the Anime & Movies, even at their worst, on average? Not buying the xenophobia claim at all now, sorry.

(b) TPCi's alliteration script rewrites for Team Rocket were/are far more commonplace than 4Kids' were, which were a practical handful in comparison, no amount of your nitpicking it will change the facts.

(c) So will it take until 2030+ for you to finish your dub comparisons of Mid Unova to Alola at your current pace, which you've never reviewed? I mean, in 2017, you chose to bash the Kanto Anime dub from 18-19 years ago, after all.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

(c) So will it take until 2030+ for you to finish your dub comparisons of Mid Unova to Alola at your current pace, which you've neverreviewed? I mean, in 2017, you chose to bash the Kanto Anime dub from 18-19 years ago, after all.

Well, you can't blame him. Ash and Gary's rivalry is too salty for Brock's tastes.

Now I need a drink!

Dogasu what do think about this video?

View: https://youtu.be/7Gd-QqTjykw

 

[Hidden Mew]

While 4Kids was definitely a factor as to why Pokemon became such a hit, I think that it would have happened regardless of who dubbed the series. The games' popularity would have guaranteed that the show would have become a hit too. 4Kids did know how to make catchy music and promote a product, but I don't think that the show wouldn't have become a hit if it wasn't for them. It could have been a different show with different people behind the scenes, but I think it would have been a hit all the same. That might have changed things for Yu-Gi-Oh! though considering that 4Kids got it primarily due to their success with Pokemon.

I also wouldn't quite say that the TPCI dub not being as widely regarded as the 4Kids dub is simply because of the changes 4Kids made. 4Kids had the series for eight years and most people would associate the Pokemon anime with the Kanto arc due to how that was when the series was in its peak of popularity. While the games are generally more popular than the show, that doesn't mean that the anime has completely fallen off the bandwagon. It aired on Cartoon Network for ten years, the ratings were pretty good despite the poor timeslots it was getting on the channel, Disney XD has been providing marathons for the SM series, they have been uploading the different seasons onto their website and they promoted the fact that they have all currently dubbed seasons on their website. The anime isn't nearly as popular as it used to be, but I don't think that's entirely due to TPCI. The games themselves are able to appeal to a wider audience than the anime as well, which would be one reason why they continue to be so successful. I'm also not sure how accurate the TPCI dub is compared to the 4Kids dub. I've heard mixed reactions on both sides.

I don't think that 4Kids was the devil like a lot of people back in the day used to say, but I do remember how people would have wanted the Japanese versions legally available. That would have been an ideal solution since they could still have their dubs aimed at kids, while still able to attract older fans through legal subs. Although, that wasn't as commonplace as it is now when they first started working on Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh! if I recall correctly. Not to mention all of their legal issues made it harder for that to happen. Although, the Toei Yu-Gi-Oh! was something that 4Kids couldn't get even if they wanted to considering that it was made by a different company than DM was. I can understand the problems people had with 4Kids. Some of their changes were understandable, but they also made a lot of unnecessary ones.

 

[kantoskies]

The only thing I'm surprised about at "Daily 4Kids dub bash camp while ignoring TPCi is still doing the same exact stuff you bash 4Kids for doing, be it similar kinds of script rewrites 11 years later today, still changing the Pokemon eyecatches around randomly, replacing more OST than 4Kids ever did now, still having wall-to-wall music 90% of the time, and still visually editing the dub"

So will it take until 2030+ for you to finish your dub comparisons of Mid Unova to Alola at your current pace, which you've never reviewed? I mean, in 2017, you chose to bash the Kanto Anime dub from 18-19 years ago, after all.

Do you just ignore every time Dogasu has explained this just so you can keep making the same post over and over?

He's not a fan of either dub. His older comparisons, the ones of TPCi episodes, were less in-depth or "nitpicky" because his Japanese wasn't as good back then (not a knock at him, mind you, he said this himself) so he didn't catch everything the dub changed. And one reason he hasn't done a comparison past mid BW is because differences between the original and the dub are much more widely-known these days. Meanwhile a lot of us didn't know that those Kanto episodes didn't actually take place in the Seafoam Islands.

If you hate his comparisons-- and TPCi's dub at that-- so much you do know you don't have to read them right? Like I don't want to be one of those people that says "don't like, don't look" at any constructive criticism but at this point you seem to just be outright angry because his views supposedly don't perfectly align with yours. It seems like you get awfully upset over his comparisons so it might do you some good not to read these things that make you so angry.

 

[GuyWhoTellsTruth]

Like I don't want to be one of those people that says "don't like, don't look" at any constructive criticism but at this point you seem to just be outright angry because his views supposedly don't perfectly align with yours. It seems like you get awfully upset over his comparisons so it might do you some good not to read these things that make you so angry.

I don't see how the constructive criticism of a dub by deeming it "wretched" or "xenophobic" is constructive, though, nor how it matters when the company has been dead for years now- not like they can change anything now, tbh. Also, one filler episode randomly taking place in the Seafoam Islands in the dub rather than the original location didn't affect the Series in any real way in the long run, so it doesn't matter much to me.

I'll give you it's probably for the best I don't read these anymore due to getting angry/upset over them, but it's not because my views don't perfectly align with his: I just don't care for his comments at times.

I'll just add one thing, though, I feel it's worth noting 4Kids kept 100% of the OST in "Friend and Foe Alike," 13 out of 13 pieces. They also kept 80%-ish in the other remaining Kanto dub eps here. Naturally, he omitted that, just to say "but filler dub music ruins it!" so all I can say there is, it's often always like that.

 

[ii kanji]

Sweet baby Jesus, I really wanted to ignore the whole post but I can't let this go...

Xenophobia is by definition, the hatred of people from other countries, not just Japan, a single country.

Can we just get one thing straight here: xenophobia doesn't have to mean a hatred of people from every other country. There are plenty of indigenous white Brits (for example) who don't have any problem with white Americans/Western Europeans but are deeply suspicious/fearly/hateful when it comes to non-white Brits.

You can hold them directly responsible or shift the blame to the cancerous vein of xenophobia that runs through US society, which they felt they had to appease, but 4Kids censorship of all things Japanese is exactly this.

If you have a problem with the word xenophobia, let's just call it racism.

 

[Antiyonder]

Yeah, I don't think that keeping the original Japanese score invalidates the claim of the crew being Xenophobic.

I mean I find the whole change to donuts for the most part to be stupidly funny, but why is it necessary to cover up such things like festivals or food like rice balls?

Sweet baby Jesus, I really wanted to ignore the whole post but I can't let this go...

Can we just get one thing straight here: xenophobia doesn't have to mean a hatred of people from every other country. There are plenty of indigenous white Brits (for example) who don't have any problem with white Americans/Western Europeans but are deeply suspicious/fearly/hateful when it comes to non-white Brits.

You can hold them directly responsible or shift the blame to the cancerous vein of xenophobia that runs through US society, which they felt they had to appease, but 4Kids censorship of all things Japanese is exactly this.

If you have a problem with the word xenophobia, let's just call it racism.

Plus as I stated before, even with the charitable idea that they think that Japanese aspects are too confusing, the uninformed viewer could just attribute it to being part of the Pokémon world and learning the truth later on through online searches.

 

[technickal]

TPCi's alliteration script rewrites for Team Rocket were/are far more commonplace than 4Kids' were, which were a practical handful in comparison, no amount of your nitpicking it will change the facts.

Regarding this point, this is both true or false. Yes, TPCi relies on rhyme and alliteration a lot more than 4Kids when it comes to Team Rocket. But 4Kids still is no stranger to it, as you would know by reading Dogasu’s comparisons. Admittedly they did do it a lot less, so I think the difference is that 4Kids knew when to stop while TPCi doesn’t.

It’s interesting you bring up rewrites, though, because ironically enough the general gist of what TR is saying is actually closer to the original in TPCi’s dub. Of course, the phrasing is all on them. I suppose their 4Kids selves must have come off that much more naturally to people if they’re generally preferred despite being more heavily rewritten.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I definitely remember 4Kids giving the Team Rocket trio rhymes and alliterations for their dialogue. It wasn't nearly as often as it is in the TPCI dub, but it wasn't uncommon. I think it generally worked because it wasn't the Team Rocket trio's default mode like it is in the TPCI dub. Team Rocket's dialogue does often sound forced with all of the rhymes and alliterations in the TPCI dub. Both dubs seem to have changed their dialogue around, so I don't think that either one would look particularly good when it comes to the Team Rocket trio's dialogue and personalities.

 

[Gabo2oo]

I suppose their 4Kids selves must have come off that much more naturally to people if they’re generally preferred despite being more heavily rewritten.

TPCI's Team Rocket comes off as completely detached from the real world at times. It's like they've deluded themselves into thinking they live in a scripted musical of sorts.

 

[kantoskies]

Honestly most of TPCi's dialogue is bad, it's not a problem exclusive to the Rocket trio (though they get the worst of it). Like I'd watch an episode TPCi dubbed and if I wasn't paying complete attention to what was being said I would be completely lost because no one is speaking naturally. They add in way too many "fluff" words and word things in just...super odd ways. It doesn't help that most of the actors sound like they're reading from cue cards.

4Kids had shitty dialogue, yeah, but it was mostly through cheesy 90s American dub-esque phrases that, to me personally, weren't always super distracting. By and large the writers of that dub could write dialogue that sounded more natural, or at the very least was easier to follow. I think the biggest issue with 4Kids script-wise was that their re-writes were more substantial. TPCi re-writes stuff, sure, but for the most part it's just altering little facts (like changing the time or renaming fruit). 4Kids made huge changes that altered entire the entire canon, like claiming Brock's mother died.

In my personal opinion I tended to mind 4Kids' edits less. This is incredibly subjective but I can stomach those rewrites if the voice acting and sound mixing is tolerable (which, lets face it, 4Kids' seasons 2 and 3 were head and shoulders above anything TPCi has put out in the past 6 or so years). This probably sounds hypocritical because I made a big deal about how it's not a dub's job to "fix" the original by changing music or dialogue, and I still believe that. And I recognize that 4Kids made flat-out bad stuff, mainly Chronicles and M01, and even their "good" work was passable at best. I just think that it's easier to ignore things like "this was different in the original" if the voice acting isn't grating.

As for the Rocket trio, I do have a soft spot for their 4Kids incarnations, partially out of nostalgia but also because I do think love and care was put into their dialogue, whereas I think the TPCi writers are just scratching their heads and thinking "do kids think this is hip and cool?".

 

[Hidden Mew]

I've never had a consistent problem with the dialogue in the TPCI dub other than with Team Rocket. That's not to say that the dialogue for the main cast is perfect. It's just not really as noticeable to me most of the time like it is with Team Rocket. At least part of that does come from how they force in a lot of rhymes and alliterations into their dialogue in the attempt to sound funny. The voice delivery would also be a big factor for that as well. While I am fine with most of the TPCI dub cast and I have been for a long time, I still really don't like Meowth's voice even after all these years and James' not quite British voice is hit or miss for me, although he's better able to pull off emotional scenes with that voice better than Meowth can at least.

 

[Antiyonder]

Honestly this kind of gets me curious, but from his page of Gardie the Police Dog/Case of the K-9 Caper:

Thanks to the 2007 reboot of Alvin and the Chipmunks there are kids today who definitely get this reference. But back in 1999 this would have been dated as hell. The Chipmunk trio's TV series ended in 1990 and while there were a few odd TV specials here and there (apparently the most recent one at that time was an Easter special in 1995?) the singing rodents were mostly yesterday's news by the time this episode debuted on Kids' WB!

Maybe my memory is fuzzy, but wasn't it common in the 90s for old cartoons to still be presented often on basic channels or basic cable through mornings on Fox in the early part of the decade to later say CN or Nickelodeon? Heck, from 2001-2002 they preceded KidsWB time with the 1970s cartoon "The New Adventures of Batman" of all things.

Even if not big, still presented enough for the kids at the time to view them.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I clearly remember watching the 80's Alvin and the Chipmunks series on Cartoon Network back in the day. Both Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network used to air a lot of older cartoon series and shorts. I think that a high pitch squeaky voice would be associated with the Chipmunks regardless due to how long they had been around by that point. It might not have been as familiar with kids back when the episode premiered compared to now with all of the live action movies, but I really doubt that it would have gone over kids' heads completely either.

 

[technickal]

I don't think it was dated at the time – just very out of place for a show like Pokémon, even taking Kanto weirdness into account.

 

[Insanish Danish]

I had an Alvin and the Chipmunks sing-along video when I was a kid that used footage from the older cartoon from back in the 60s or whenever. So I got the reference right away. I guess it was kind of a weird reference to make, but I'm sure there were plenty of kids who knew what it meant.

 

[Charmander4]

Alvin and the Chipmunks was on Nickelodeon in the late 90s and I remember watching it all the time. Garfield too and other 60s-80s cartoons.

The 4Kids writers were clever and talented. The dialogue was natural and pop culture references and puns were put together in a humorous way. Go watch The Double Trouble Header. The baseball references will have you in stitches and they are placed in beautifully.

It isn’t just the voice actors we lost when TPCI stole the show. The writing wasn’t even close to what 4Kids had done. I could care less if what was said in the Japanese version was different or said in a different way but the same point was made. As an adult you can watch the 4Kids episodes without feeling like a complete moron. The writers smartly realized parents would watch with their kids and would sprinkle in things they’d get. None of which is present in the god awful disaster we have today which is written to the lowest common denominator.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I like the 4Kids dub as much as the next person, but I think that's giving the writing way too much credit. Both dubs are clearly aimed at children and I don't think that they added things that adults would get in the writing, or at least not often enough to where that would be noticeable. I've watched the 4Kids seasons a lot over the years and it is still written as a kid's show. I do think that the deliveries helped to make the dialogue feel more natural, but I don't think that worked all the time and my nostalgia for the series could play a big part into this as well. Since I watched the series when I was little, I wouldn't notice the voice delivery and dialogue issues like I would now.

Despite how much people complain about it here, I don't think that the TPCI dub is that bad. It certainly has problems, but I don't get the impression that they're talking down to their audience in every single episode. There are times where it feels like they're trying too hard to be cool and/or funny, but I could say the same thing about the 4Kids dub too. I'd say that it's pretty watchable at the very least, but I've gotten used to the voice actors and think that most of them have genuinely improved, so that would help too.

 

[Galactic_V]

I'm aware that this is old news, now, though I came across it a little over a month ago. Have any of you seen summaries of both the skipped Plasma vs Rocket episodes surfaced on the internet. I haven't seen no one talking about it in Bulbagarden (even when it came off in 2016), so I'm bringing it up here on Dogasu's Backpack's thread.

Funny how it's a weaker version of the Meloetta finale but with Plasma-dan shoehorned on it (their roles were basically blow the helicopter Satoshi and the others rode in the end of the previous episode, steal the Meteonite from Sakaki and battle Trio). There're mentions of them doing that for their "king" and wanting the Meteonite to control the Pokemon's minds to liberate them from trainers (the strong things about the episodes).
Sakaki's role was the same as the Tempest mission, though he'd retreat before the commercial break on part 2, which for me is stunningly bad.

 

[kantoskies]

I'm not convinced one way or another if it was legit but it would make sense that it would end up being reused later on, as we know other stuff from it was.

Also I remember reading that the Rocket trio performs their motto in it, which leads me to believe that clip of their BW023 motto with the black uniforms from that early trailer was actually from this episode and was reused the following week, just recolored.