1. Want to talk to fellow Pokémon fans in real time? Join the discussions on our public Discord server!

Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

Discussion in 'Pokémon Anime and Manga' started by Pokemaster Justin, Sep 9, 2008.

  1. Gabo2oo

    Gabo2oo Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,035
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    Fan backlash aside, I honestly believe there may be some internal conflict about wether keeping the TRio or not. Unlike most other characters, I doubt abandoning them at the end of a series would be an easy, unanimous agreement between whoever are in charge of that stuff.
     
  2. kantoskies

    kantoskies Prepare for over-used stock animation!

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    954
    Likes Received:
    1,653
    Kasumi by the end of Johto was more or less dead weight, and by Serena's departure traveling companions were already cyclical for over a decade so replacing her was old news. The writers knew that replacing these characters was not only doable but crucial (seriously how dull would the show be if it was still Satoshi + Kasumi + Takeshi?)

    The Rocket trio on the other hand actually serve a very easily-seen purpose. They usually are there to add conflict to an episode where there wouldn't be much otherwise. That being said, the writing team have seemed to have moved away from this "plot crutch" more in Sun&Moon than any other series. Aside from being in noticeably far fewer episodes this time around, when the Rockets are in episodes they are usually either carefully placed into the plot or have a very brief scene that doesn't add any conflict. So I guess in a way it *does* seem like the writers are phasing these characters out, it's like they're practicing writing a show without these characters. They were missing from the Akala arc, weren't on the Aether or Ultra Guardian posters, and weren't even in the Aim to be a Pokemon Master 20th Anniversary opening.

    If the Rocket trio *was* written out this series I would be more satisfied than if they were at the end of Best Wishes because they are actually acting like themselves this time around. That being said, I would need to see a few things before I would be satisfied with these characters leaving:
    • The return of their rivalry with Yamato and Kosaburo
    • Another Rumika episode
    • Something with Miyamoto, please ;;;-;;;;
    • Do something similar to that idea I had awhile back where they actually successfully catch Pikachu and make a whole mini arc out of it. Heck maybe this could be tied into Rainbow Rocket/how they actually leave or something
    • Give them like...an actual emotional goodbye instead of a cheap gag one
    • Do the original motto one final time!!!
    I hate to think of these characters leaving because they're basically my only real draw to this franchise at this point but if their departure is done well I think I'll be okay.
     
  3. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    34
    Considering they keep the lead character(s), I always found that hollow if that's truly the case. No the problem with them, plus others like say Iris is that they're added merely to just showcase more Mons, in the case of Misty and Irisi just serving tokenism roles or if heresay is true then apparently the writers thought that a one man (err boy) show wouldn't catch.

    I mean May, Dawn and Serena weren't perfect, but I felt that if traveling companions were handled like them in general (finding something to do more frequently with their screentime, especially the former two) then them becoming dull wouldn't be an issue.

    Or in short I think it merely is a case of some characters being mishandled and the production team plays them off as the problem rather than owning up to the possibility that the writing/characterization was the problem.
     
  4. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    2,078
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    Don't you feel the TRio are growing stale? This show is cyclical and has no end in sight, and any character that stays that much on it becomes stale. Look at Ash.
    Heck, look at DP Brock.
     
    SammyW27 likes this.
  5. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    34
    Especially while BW (though I sometimes get the feeling like the writers behind this installment might have been a bit cynical, especially when you consider Dogasu's comment about the Rocket Trio lacking any sense of fun) did it to an even more ridiculous degree, the anime tends to go back and forth between Ash having the skills of a newb while others times upping him to veteran when convenient.
     
    Deadman likes this.
  6. Johtohfiller

    Johtohfiller Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    1,170
    Nope.
     
  7. kantoskies

    kantoskies Prepare for over-used stock animation!

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    954
    Likes Received:
    1,653
    I can see how people might find the Rocket trio stale but I don't. Especially in Sun&Moon where it really seems like more care was put into their characterization (When they are there in the first place)

    And all Takeshi was by DP was that shitty "fall in love with every conventionally attractive lady" shtick. The Rocket trio have always been arguably the most three-dimensional main characters on this show, whereas Takeshi was usually pretty flat (like a sizeable amount of the protagonists). So of course they've stayed around longer than him
     
  8. Duke Spubber

    Duke Spubber New Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    14
    I think there will be a Rainbow Rocket arc, though not as all-encompassing as the game's Rainbow Rocket. If there is, I believe Giovanni, Ghetsis, and Lysandre are the only ones who would return, since the show doesn't use the "alternate dimensions" stuff as much as the games or the manga. I could also see Charon coming back as the DP rep instead of Cyrus, but I doubt it will happen.

    As for the next Pokémon game, I think it'll be Gen 8 first. Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon extended the Gen a bit, but not as well as, say, ORAS or B2W2 did for their previous games and there was little added to the games to extend the meta game like when ORAS gave us new Megas. Also, if the anime, in fact, DOESN'T do a Rainbow Rocket arc, they'll need a LOT of padding to make the show last for more than a year, especially since I'm willing to bet Nintendo wants to release the game during the holiday season.

    With Team Rocket, I could see it going either way. It likely does depend on what form the Gen 8 anime takes. Will it be standard comedic slice of life like Sun & Moon has, or will it go back to having Ash and the gang constantly on the road? If the latter, I doubt Team Rocket leaves. Finding them stale depends solely on the version watched. Japanese Team Rocket are still fairly entertaining, horrible designs non-withstanding, but English Team Rocket can get unbearable.
     
    Twilight-Kun likes this.
  9. martianmister

    martianmister マーシャンミスター

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Messages:
    5,204
    Likes Received:
    1,998
    Now I read it carefully and do some research, I believe it's not really true, but a fanfic based on already revealed information. Let's see:

    1. Preview and other revealed stuff:

    View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1ZW134f4MTI


    2. Dogasu's review based on revealed stuff:
    Japanese Episode "BW 023" and "BW 024"

    3. Lawrence's additions based on Dogasu's review and other revealed stuff, which later deleted:
    Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

    4. The Great Butler add stuff based on "what we know:"
    Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

    5. Lawrence adds some new info with no source:
    Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW023 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia
    Difference between revisions of "BW024 (unaired)" - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

    Whoever that Lawrence is, s/he's the one who added all this new information, the rest is based on previews and other stuff we already seen.

    From the first scenes of the preview.
    Reasoning based on what we know.
    From the preview.
    We already seen three Plasma Grunts and Liepard on the desert.
    From various preview scenes.
    I checked the previous episode and they didn't promise anything like that. Based on previews, they likely stay with the copper while Juniper, Jenny and Looker go forward.
    Based on what we alreay know.
    Based on Krokorok gag and Pikachu's sick scenes from the preview.
    Reasoning based on their scenes together in the preview.
    Reasoning that trying to connect different scenes from the preview.
    Based on game info.
    Reasoning to trying to connect different scenes from the preview.
    Based on two masked men in the preview.
    Reasoning based on what we know. Not sure about "ransom" part, isn't he want it as energy source to sold energy?
    Based on the preview but unlikely. Considering the timing between power cut and Team Plasma attack from the preview, it's more likely that Team Plasma is guilty of that.
    Based on Iris' saving Pikachu from the preview. Giovanni part contradicts the preview scene.
    Basically the narration of the preview scene.
    We already seen it in a claw-like device in the preview.
    Fanfiction to connect the storyline. If Pikachu is affected by the energy the same way the Venipede were affected, shouldn't he run away from it, instead of running towards it?
    Reasoning to explain Giovanni, Zager and Pierce's disappearances from the show.
    In the preview we seen it in sky, the rest is Fanfiction based on game info.
    As seen in the preview.
    Based on Trio's "gun" scene. Not sure about "making pokemon stronger" part. Someone's Fanfic?
    Based on previews and summaries.
    Based on preview scenes we already seen.
    Obvious conclusion based on what we know.
    Reasoning based on the next episode.

    CONCLUSION: Most of the summary is based on scenes from the preview and other things we already know about the episode. The rest is based on game info, fanfic, reasoning and conclusions based on things we already know.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
    SinnohEevee and Nicolas721 like this.
  10. SinnohEevee

    SinnohEevee Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    2,078
    Likes Received:
    1,410
    SM is handling them better than other series and it's better for them to do other stuff than stalk Ash. For 20 years, most of the time, the TRio would:
    * Stalk Ash to steal Pikachu because there aren't better Pokémon.
    * Attempt to steal Pikachu (and other Pokémon sometimes)
    * Use a mecha that ends up getting destroyed
    * Start a battle they easily lose
    * Get blasted off by Pikachu's Thunderbolt.
    And they would do that over and over for 20 years, which gets boring.
     
    SammyW27 and Kirby4ever like this.
  11. GalacticRonpa

    GalacticRonpa 私立希望ヶ峰学園の生徒なんだ

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2015
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    157
    @martianmister Wow, you went a lot farther than I did in the research. I did a little look into themattress's posts on tumblr, and got some information (fake or not), he says there's more than one source and one of them is Japanese, he mentions (as if it's a fact) that by the time the episodes got skipped, the writers were planning Pokabu's evolution (Ik that episodes are usually made 6 months in advance and said episode is way over the line, but I guess the creative staff decides things even earlier? Don't know...)

    Anyway, I can't say indeed the veracity of the tumblr acc, you brought up a few interesting points, although I think some of them can be explained, maybe:

    -I agree with you in Satoshi not being the one to cut the power, as this wouldn't make much sense if all he wanted was to stop Sakaki. It makes more sense for Plasma-dan to do it, indeed. Though can't say for certain, the episode may contain an explanation for that.
    -About Pikachu running towards Meteonite, it sorta makes sense looking the previews. There's a car scene featuring Handsome, Araragi and Satoshi-tachi, with the Pokemon clearly absent. During the battle scene it seems like it's going straight to attack without following orders, while involved in a white energy (fitting the summary more or less). About the Fushide, I can't be sure, I didn't watch the previous episode after reading that (something I'm going to do today). I really don't remember if that promise was made as well.
    -And, as stated above, the shining Pikachu has when he's going to the Meteonite might explain a possible boost in power.

    Anyway, if this turns out to be fake, I praise the writer. Connecting dots, coming up with storylines that we have no idea to know and fitting them into the released scenes. Must be a lot of work.

    (EDIT: Just finished watching the episode. While not clear, there's a passage that adds to the whole "Satoshi-tachi promised to return to Hiun City if things get dangerous", when the 3 say they'll follow Junsa's orders. Not as explicit, but it's there.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  12. technickal

    technickal Active Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    359
    I doubt someone outside OLM, ShoPro or TPC(i) would get to see a copy of the unaired BW episodes but what people have hypothesized seems very plausible. I mean, we already know about the recycled animation for Operation Tempest – it wouldn't surprise me if they borrowed a few plot points as well.

    I'm also in the skeptical group regarding Team Rocket's potential departure. Sure, they're keeping appearances down to the bare minimum, but I think it's a pretty big leap to say they're going to be gone just because of that, especially after the complete 360 they pulled in BW. They're nearly as essential to the show as Ash and Pikachu are, and I don't think Brock is a good counterexample, because he already was replaced previously during the Orange Islands arc.
     
  13. Gabo2oo

    Gabo2oo Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1,035
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    Steven Universe changed its opening, musically and visually, starting from episode 6 of season 2. Though it could be argued it's an "update" rather than an entirely new intro.

    Adventure Time also changed the opening midway through season 7 during the "Stakes" mini-series, but then again, it wasn't a completely different song.
     
    Dogasu and kantoskies like this.
  14. Sasori

    Sasori Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    60
    The new write-up is informative, yet also somewhat unnecessary imo. I mean does anyone in real life actually get triggered by how other fans define seasons? It just seems a bit nit-picky and condescending to correct something that is so trivial.
     
    Charmander4 and Gabo2oo like this.
  15. Poke Trey

    Poke Trey 2018 YEAH!

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    4,937
    Likes Received:
    2,170
    I do go by the Seasons format whenever I watch my shows. Gives me a good sense of how I should watch my things in order, though I will say it is kinda pointless because in the end not every I know even watches Pokemon in order. They'll go with anyone's order and just call it session.
     
  16. kantoskies

    kantoskies Prepare for over-used stock animation!

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    954
    Likes Received:
    1,653
    Another reason to properly define the 4Kids seasons by the 52-set rule is that it helps clarify dub trends. Aside from the music videos you mentioned it's more accurate to say "season one kept more amounts of silence in the background" when talking about the first 52 episodes rather than 80. Or "Team Rocket had more charming dub dialogue in season three" includes the end of the Orange Islands arc. Or how "season six was recorded in a different studio and as a result all of the character's voices/BGM sounded louder" includes the last leg of the Johto saga.

    No, no one has PTSD flashbacks and panic attacks over something like this.

    (Talk about misusing a term, lmao)
     
    XD375 likes this.
  17. Antiyonder

    Antiyonder Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    34
    Additionally, early episodes with Veronica Taylor's Ash had her voice sounding a little more say older, and not even too different than Natochenny's Ash.

    Plus pointless trivial details is a bread and butter of fandom. Heck in some forums, I and several others find it interesting to discuss cartoons that actually blend say US and Canadian Voice Actors of all things.
     
  18. Nicolas721

    Nicolas721 Well-Known Member

    Blog Posts:
    28
    Joined:
    May 13, 2014
    Messages:
    1,057
    Likes Received:
    977
    A few years ago I was very dismissive of the "season = 52 episodes" model. I said "How can some random DVD releases take priority over the openings?" but one day I discovered that it was the real deal, because all the real season premieres from season 2,3,4 and 5 premiered in Latin America on January 1st on different years, after long breaks since the previous season finale.

    However, it's very easy to see while people don't like it, no one is going to buy that "Adventures on the Orange Islands" begins on episode 53, or that "Advanced" includes the Johto League and all but 2 of the digitally colored OS episodes. At the end of the day, the episodes will be the same, yet it's important to clarify which is the real model.
     
  19. technickal

    technickal Active Member

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2014
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    359
    At first I wondered why you – aka the biggest English-speaking advocate of the Japanese version of Pokémon – would care so much about how fans defined a dub-only phenomenon. But after reading your write-up it all fell into line. Overall, very educational and informative article. A tinge patronizing, but that's hard to avoid with topics like this.
     
    Poke Trey likes this.
  20. Dogasu

    Dogasu ロケット団よ永遠

    Blog Posts:
    0
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    10,667
    Likes Received:
    904
    There are a few reasons I made the new write-up, and while I touched upon these in the conclusion I'd like to clarify them further:

    1) There are fans out there who genuinely have no idea why anyone would lump the 4Kids episodes into chunks of 52. They maybe weren't watching Pokémon back during the Kids' WB! days (maybe some of them weren't even born...?) and they don't remember the months and months we had to wait in between "The Breeding Center Secret" and "Princess vs. Princess."

    2) Because of this, every single time the show is re-released in the U.S. there is a 100% chance that someone will speak up and wonder "where the rest (= the remaining 27 episodes) of Season One is" or why "Season Three" is starting with a late Orange Islands episode. And what ends up happening is that these people are spending actual money on products only to be disappointed that their new DVD set doesn't contain all the episodes they thought they would.

    I don't blame fans for any of the above, of course. The 4Kids / Kids' WB! era was over a decade ago, after all. But the fact that these misunderstandings still occur, to this day, makes me feel like gathering all this information in one place is very much worth it.

    When I wrote this article I tried to be very careful that it didn't come off as condescending or patronizing. Was there any part of the article in particular that you felt could have been reworded a bit better?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2018
    SammyW27 likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.