Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

[darksteel6]

I don't think they ever wanted most of the 4kids cast to reprise their roles after 2008. For example Veronica Taylor could have voiced May again in DP but they decided not to bring her back. Rachael Lillis could have voiced Misty in her SM cameos but they chose not to use her even 15 years later.

The CG Mewtwo movie also would have made sense nostalgia wise to use the 4kids cast for instead of the modern one and they still chose not to.

Yeah that was a very baffling move on TCPI's part.

 

[darksteel6]

Personally, I can believe Kahn saying that he and 4Kids were the ones to convince Nintendo to localize Pokémon, but I don't believe that another company wouldn't have done the same if 4Kids hadn't first.


Not the same roles, no, because those were already recast at that point, and that would require recasting them again. Regardless of how you feel about the initial recast, two wrongs don't make a right; those roles belong to Natochenny, Knotz and the others now just as much as they did to Taylor, Lillis and the others back then.

I'm not so sure recasting them would be "wrong", i've heard plenty of stories about James current VA being a real dick towards fans and saying disparaging things about the 4Kids cast, so I can't say i'd be shedding any tears if he got replaced.

 

[snowmint]

I'm not so sure recasting them would be "wrong", i've heard plenty of stories about James current VA being a real dick towards fans and saying disparaging things about the 4Kids cast, so I can't say i'd be shedding any tears if he got repl

Yeah, there's a reason he's barely in any other anime dubs now.

 

[darksteel6]

There was an article on LinkedIn on some December 2021 business magazine article about Al Khan that discussed this too. Those don't seem up there anymore. I wished I saved them. I still can't believe 4kids botched mega hits like Tama and friends, Ultraman Tiga, magical Doremi, one piece etc. There's this YouTube link at around 4:30 minutes. Also at 22:30

Special Interview with Al Kahn and the ECOMI/VeVe Co-founders!

In this special interview, the #VeVe Co-Founders sit down with our SVP of licensing- Al Kahn to discuss the story behind VeVe, and paint a picture for the fu...

youtu.be

The story of Veve's head of licensing, AL Kahn. A reading by Randy Chavez! this is the article as well read by a person.

Tama and Friends? Can't say i've heard of that one before. I vaguely remember Magical Doremei, it was OK but as the show was seemingly aimed at a younger demographic then I was when it was airing it wasn't a show I regularly went out of my way to see.

Speaking of Ultraman Tiga there's actually been an ongoing effort in the Lost Media community to find the lost episodes that 4Kids dubbed which never made it to air(same with F-Zero: GP Legend, I grew up watching that show so I was pretty pissed when it got cut short like that):https://forums.lostmediawiki.com/thread/5523/lost-media-4kids-ultraman-english

 

[Pkmndub]

I don't think they ever wanted most of the 4kids cast to reprise their roles after 2008. For example Veronica Taylor could have voiced May again in DP but they decided not to bring her back. Rachael Lillis could have voiced Misty in her SM cameos but they chose not to use her even 15 years later.

The CG Mewtwo movie also would have made sense nostalgia wise to use the 4kids cast for instead of the modern one and they still chose not to.

They did, for those still on the show that hadn't been recast. Mewtwo was reprised, Corey was reprised, Neesha, Fergus, Miranda, Giovanni has been Ted Lewis since S12. What it seems people mean by "4Kids cast" is they want them to recast Ash's VA that have been doing it longer than 4Kids (16 years!) have to suit nostalgia....

Other reprisals include Lance, Koga, Mr. Contesta, Nurse Joy S23-onwards. Show is voice directed by a 4Kids cast member. I could go on and on but that isn't the real point right?

 

[snowmint]

I'm honestly surprised Sarah has stayed on to voice ash and never went on to be an on screen actor. I guess she really does love voice work.

 

[Yash]

He left after Season 6, more than enough time.

As far as I know, he also didn't really do any work for 4Kids aside from Pokemon, so even if there was any pressure on the 4Kids actors to not return I could see him not really caring.

I think the fact that TPCI hired him back after recasting shows a good faith effort to get as much of the original crew back as possible. I'd assume the reason we never saw any of the main characters return to their roles is probably to maintain consistency than anything - anytime a role reverted back to a 4Kids actor (like Joy or Giovanni) it was for a pretty minor character, and often because the TPCI voice actor left the show anyway. Giovanni had just two speaking parts done by Craig Blair before the part went back to Ted Lewis (who I assume would also return to playing Tracey if he ever showed up again). Quite different from having say, May be voiced again by Veronica Taylor during her DP appearance after Michele Knotz played her for a full season and was still on the show playing Jessie.

I'm honestly surprised Sarah has stayed on to voice ash and never went on to be an on screen actor. I guess she really does love voice work.

Show business is hard, I'd bet most voice actors working in anime (which is notoriously low-paying) would love to "move up" and never look back. Nearly anytime Netflix's Shaman King dub recast a character from the 4Kids era is because dubbing anime is below that actor's pay grade. Andrew Rannells is probably the most prominent example, becoming a very accomplished live-action and stage actor in his own right. A friend of mine read his autobiography and it sounds like he had an absolutely miserable time working on Pokemon Live and doing roles for 4Kids, so I doubt we'll ever see him return to anime again (he seems to have felt it was beneath him).

Sean Schemmel is an interesting example because he's just recently broken into voice acting for Western animation and video games, and has barely done anything anime since. He comes back to play Goku and Kai in Dragon Ball, but that's about it. I just find the apparent "big fish/small pond" thing going on with him fascinating - plays one of the most iconic anime characters in the world by far, but has largely left that industry to play bit parts on Disney shows and direct-to-video schlock.

 

[snowmint]

As far as I know, he also didn't really do any work for 4Kids aside from Pokemon, so even if there was any pressure on the 4Kids actors to not return I could see him not really caring.

I think the fact that TPCI hired him back after recasting shows a good faith effort to get as much of the original crew back as possible. I'd assume the reason we never saw any of the main characters return to their roles is probably to maintain consistency than anything - anytime a role reverted back to a 4Kids actor (like Joy or Giovanni) it was for a pretty minor character, and often because the TPCI voice actor left the show anyway. Giovanni had just two speaking parts done by Craig Blair before the part went back to Ted Lewis (who I assume would also return to playing Tracey if he ever showed up again). Quite different from having say, May be voiced again by Veronica Taylor during her DP appearance after Michele Knotz played her for a full season and was still on the show playing Jessie.


Show business is hard, I'd bet most voice actors working in anime (which is notoriously low-paying) would love to "move up" and never look back. Nearly anytime Netflix's Shaman King dub recast a character from the 4Kids era is because dubbing anime is below that actor's pay grade. Andrew Rannells is probably the most prominent example, becoming a very accomplished live-action and stage actor in his own right. A friend of mine read his autobiography and it sounds like he had an absolutely miserable time working on Pokemon Live and doing roles for 4Kids, so I doubt we'll ever see him return to anime again (he seems to have felt it was beneath him).

Sean Schemmel is an interesting example because he's just recently broken into voice acting for Western animation and video games, and has barely done anything anime since. He comes back to play Goku and Kai in Dragon Ball, but that's about it. I just find the apparent "big fish/small pond" thing going on with him fascinating - plays one of the most iconic anime characters in the world by far, but has largely left that industry to play bit parts on Disney shows and direct-to-video schlock.

Don't forget that Andrew is in American animation Netflix and Amazon shows like Big Mouth and Invincible.

 

[Antiyonder]

Not the same roles, no, because those were already recast at that point, and that would require recasting them again. Regardless of how you feel about the initial recast, two wrongs don't make a right; those roles belong to Natochenny, Knotz and the others now just as much as they did to Taylor, Lillis and the others back then.

I mean I definitely agree with your sentiment and do think Natochenny and Rogers improved a lot on Ash and Brock since the start of the recasting.

But keeping Knotz as Misty as of the BW flashback (first time she voice the character after the Mirage special) is something I never got. Unless the very few times she voiced her was very sentimental to her, I don't see how bringing Lillis back for the role would be disrespectful. And yeah in contrast to Natochenny's Ash and Roger's Brock, she definitely doesn't sound quite so right.

 

[snowmint]

I mean I definitely agree with your sentiment and do think Natochenny and Rogers improved a lot on Ash and Brock since the start of the recasting.

But keeping Knotz as Misty as of the BW flashback (first time she voice the character after the Mirage special) is something I never got. Unless the very few times she voiced her was very sentimental to her, I don't see how bringing Lillis back for the role would be disrespectful. And yeah in contrast to Natochenny's Ash and Roger's Brock, she definitely doesn't sound quite so right.

At that point, didn't Rachel Lillis move to LA?

 

[PaperSplash]

I mean I definitely agree with your sentiment and do think Natochenny and Rogers improved a lot on Ash and Brock since the start of the recasting.

But keeping Knotz as Misty as of the BW flashback (first time she voice the character after the Mirage special) is something I never got. Unless the very few times she voiced her was very sentimental to her, I don't see how bringing Lillis back for the role would be disrespectful. And yeah in contrast to Natochenny's Ash and Roger's Brock, she definitely doesn't sound quite so right.

I guess it wouldn't have exactly been disrespectful to being Lillis back as Misty but it would have personally felt weird to me for her to be the only one of the original trio to regain her VA. It also would have arguably been unfair to Taylor and Stuart for Lillis to be able to reprise Misty simply because the character happened to stop regularly appearing after the recast unlike Ash and Brock.

I guess you could say the same thing about Ted Lewis being able to reprise Giovanni but 1) it was an abnormal case and the reasoning behind why it was able to happen has never been disclosed; for all we know Craig Blair willingly stepped down from the role, 2) Blair would end up leaving the series anyway a season and a half later, so Ted Lewis would have ended up getting the role back regardless and 3) Giovanni was never really comparable to Ash, his friends and the Team Rocket trio in terms of prominence.

 

[snowmint]

Interesting new comparison, Dogasu. Yes, there was a recent galaxy con online panel where Michael Haigney and Eric Stuart and a couple other actors were baffled at how Jynx got through the episode pipeline... The video hasn't been posted yet.

 

[MizuTaipu]

Yeah, Dan's pedophilic flirting towards Kasumi is always uncomfortable to watch, same with the doctor from Kanto's hospital episode.

I'm glad the anime writers have moved away from dialogue like that. I guess the "under that girl's skirt" lyric from Aim to be a Pokémon Master is a remnant from that time in the 90s where shounen anime made jokes like that.

 

[darksteel6]

Yeah, Dan's pedophilic flirting towards Kasumi is always uncomfortable to watch, same with the doctor from Kanto's hospital episode.

I'm glad the anime writers have moved away from dialogue like that. I guess the "under that girl's skirt" lyric from Aim to be a Pokémon Master is a remnant from that time in the 90s where shounen anime made jokes like that.

Yeah I don't get why certain Japanese creators have that weird obsession, I know the age of consent is much lower in Japan then it is in the West but still putting that sort of thing in a show largely aimed at kids just strikes me as very weird.

Never heard of the Mills Brothers until now, that's an odd choice for a quote.

Also was honestly not aware until now the Misty/Kasumi is supposed to be 10-years old, I always assumed she was a teenager(what with her having her own gym and all).

The Who Wants to be a Millionaire? reference is interesting because I distinctly remember watching an episode of Millionaire as a kid where one guy blew a good run by completely whiffing a question that was actually about Pokemon(It was "which one of these is not a Pokemon?", don't remember all four answers but I think Jigglypuff and Pikachu were two of the answers)I couldn't believe the guy got the answer wrong, that was the first time where I knew something an adult didn't know, pretty surreal. So maybe that's why 4Kids threw in that reference?

 

[PaperSplash]

I've seen "It's all downhill from here" used to mean that things will get worse but I've actually also seen it used to mean that they will get better. I'm not sure if one of the senses is a "could care less"-style misinterpretation or it's just the English language being confusing and contradictory as usual.

 

[Sai]

I always disliked how those episodes used Misty for fanservice so often too, like having her wear a bikini for a swimsuit show or having old men creep on her like Moe, Danny and Doctor Proctor. This is definitely something they never did with any of the female companions after her. Like any of the other girls got crushed on by characters their age, like Tierno with Serena or May with that Sid character from the Deoxys movie.

Or the stuff with Misty in the Cinnibar hot springs merely wrapped in a towel or the Diglett episode hot springs. Honestly reminds me of other 90's anime like Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon that had similar scenes like that before Pokemon got toned down for international audiences.

Most of Misty's scenes especially in the first two seasons would have never been able to fly in the modern era as opposed to the 90's.

 

[Antiyonder]

1. Going off course for this one in several regards. And really the appropriate episode to point to.

- I definitely can respect if shipping isn't one's cup of tea simply out of disinterest or if people find us annoying. I even try to keep any lengthy/heavy stuff restricted to threads and such where it's appropriate aside from small comments.

But never really got avoiding due to the fear of being branded/assumed to be pervy.

Sometimes it can be done with a Y or G Rated view. And in the case of episodes like this one or say Episode 18 which had an old man perving on Misty as well as her entering a swimsuit contest, yeah there's a lot of hobbies/fandoms one would have to cut ties with to avoid being mistaken as a perv. Depending on who you ask, anime as a whole.

- Funny incidentally how animes were even allowed to have iffy moments like this (and arguably the Sun and Moon ep at the hot springs), but something like the Ash/Serena kiss wouldn't be allowed onscreen. Not even an Amourshipper, but yeah... Do the episodes get approval by politicians in training or something?

2.

So first of all, Dan's Gym Challenge is ableist AF. I guess if you have some sort of mobility or respiratory issue you should just give up now because one of the things you have to do to qualify to compete in the league is climb a whole ass mountain all by yourself.

2. I definitely like Suede's interpretation/abridged type portrayal of him. Basically Dan wanting to weed out the ahem, undesirables.

Heck he or anyone factoring it might be reading into it to much, but it almost seems like The Ultimate Test ("The Pokemon Certification Exam!?") inferred that you could still be involved with competitions even if say you had a physical handicap.

Oh, and you can't get help from any of your Pokémon, either! Like, WTF! There is actually an official Pokémon Gym out there that will straight up disqualify you for using a Pokémon!

3. Meowths and Growlithes living together! Mass hysteria!

4. While I don't think he had anything to do with the ep, wonder if this was an episode that Shudo favored:-D.

How did the English dub manage to make Kasumi's dialogue even more inappropriate?

5. Easy. The same way they took a couple of "She'll be fun in 8 years scenes and made them extremely wrong":

- The School of Hard Knocks ("The Pokemon Ensured-Victory Manual")- Takeshi comment towards a character of the day translated to Brock's "She can violate my rights anytime".

No other way that you could interpret that and it seems like age isn't even a problem for the guy who in the English Dub has no interest in 10 year olds.

- Beauty and the Beach (Holiday at Aopulco)- Ryuu's usage of the phrase being changed to him likening Misty to his granddaughter.

Hope in Dub continuity her parents have a restraining order on Gramps.

It's a shame unique artwork like the one on the left never made it to American airwaves since it does make this little silhouette guessing game that much more fun.

And unlike the Purin/Jigglypuff seen from above, it doesn't come off as a lie debunked from the games past Gen 1.:-D

 

[darksteel6]

1. Going off course for this one in several regards. And really the appropriate episode to point to.

- I definitely can respect if shipping isn't one's cup of tea simply out of disinterest or if people find us annoying. I even try to keep any lengthy/heavy stuff restricted to threads and such where it's appropriate aside from small comments.

But never really got avoiding due to the fear of being branded/assumed to be pervy.

Sometimes it can be done with a Y or G Rated view. And in the case of episodes like this one or say Episode 18 which had an old man perving on Misty as well as her entering a swimsuit contest, yeah there's a lot of hobbies/fandoms one would have to cut ties with to avoid being mistaken as a perv. Depending on who you ask, anime as a whole.

- Funny incidentally how animes were even allowed to have iffy moments like this (and arguably the Sun and Moon ep at the hot springs), but something like the Ash/Serena kiss wouldn't be allowed onscreen. Not even an Amourshipper, but yeah... Do the episodes get approval by politicians in training or something?

2.

2. I definitely like Suede's interpretation/abridged type portrayal of him. Basically Dan wanting to weed out the ahem, undesirables.

Heck he or anyone factoring it might be reading into it to much, but it almost seems like The Ultimate Test ("The Pokemon Certification Exam!?") inferred that you could still be involved with competitions even if say you had a physical handicap.



3. Meowths and Growlithes living together! Mass hysteria!

4. While I don't think he had anything to do with the ep, wonder if this was an episode that Shudo favored:-D.



5. Easy. The same way they took a couple of "She'll be fun in 8 years scenes and made them extremely wrong":

- The School of Hard Knocks ("The Pokemon Ensured-Victory Manual")- Takeshi comment towards a character of the day translated to Brock's "She can violate my rights anytime".

No other way that you could interpret that and it seems like age isn't even a problem for the guy who in the English Dub has no interest in 10 year olds.

- Beauty and the Beach (Holiday at Aopulco)- Ryuu's usage of the phrase being changed to him likening Misty to his granddaughter.

Hope in Dub continuity her parents have a restraining order on Gramps.



And unlike the Purin/Jigglypuff seen from above, it doesn't come off as a lie debunked from the games past Gen 1.:-D

Oh yeah I can definitely relate to the whole "getting unfairly branded as a perv just for having certain interests" thing as a few weeks ago I had someone else on another forum randomly accuse me of being a "pedophile" in a PM just because i'd written a few stories for AO3(Archive of our Own) that featured underaged fictional characters engaging in sexual activity(and mind you my stories are downright tame compared to a lot of the other stuff on that site as I don't write in rape or violence into any of my stories)after I told the admin of the forum that, he told me that he couldn't punish anyone for what they said in PMs and could only punish them for public posts(which blew my mind as i'd NEVER heard of a forum that allowed that kind of behavior to go unpunished) and he also kind of engaged in victim-blaming with me, telling me I "shouldn't have been surprised" that some people called me a "pedo" over my stories, a few days later after a minor disagreement with a mod I found myself IP banned from that site with no explanation at all(even though the site has an actual warning system where you get negative points for certain infractions and the increase in punishments is supposed to be gradual, with first getting temp-bans for 1 week and then 2 weeks and then a month and only then a permaban)and i'm wondering if it was because this other user had somehow convinced the admins and mods that I was a pedo(either that or they didn't like me poking around and asking questions about why they refused to punish users for sending other users abusive PMs, either way the fact that they hid every single one of my posts from public view after my ban was very telling), the user who accused me had been a member of that forum for a long time(15 years)and was all chummy with the mods, so I got the sense none of them wanted me in their little exclusive club and they were only tolerating me temporarily because they didn't want to look biased by not letting in any new members(as it's one of those forums where the admin has to approve your account before you can post)and cooked up some half-assed excuse to get rid of me so they could all get back to their little circle-jerk.

Sorry for the long rant, but I really take issue with being falsely accused like that and being banned for essentially no reason at all(not the first time i've been unfairly banned from a forum either, but at least the previous one had the decency to give me temp bans first).


Back to the subject of Pokemon I've never actually been able to find a clip of Brock saying the full line of "She can violate my rights anytime" every official release i've seen has his line abruptly cut off(including the original Sisters of Cerulean City DVD release, though perhaps the VHS release has it intact).

It does seem like a ridiculous double-standard that innocent kissing isn't allowed but implied older men creeping on under-aged girls is totally A-OK.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

I never see Dan as someone romantically interested in Kasumi, he's more of a charming cool big brother type character, he even teased them about how they secretly care about each other.

There aren't really anime YouTubers in Japan correct?

There is many anime youtubers, but they don't use episode clips, only screencaps.

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youtube.com

 

[darksteel6]

I never see Dan as someone romantically interested in Kasumi, he's more of a charming cool big brother type character, he even teased them about how they secretly care about each other.

There is many anime youtubers, but they don't use episode clips, only screencaps.

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youtube.com

Ever western Youtubers like Yugioh Everything that only used screencaps still got hit with bullshit copyright claims though.