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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

darksteel6

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I truly never realized the pokemon dub is still a mess since the beginning. We were just super lucky they kept some of the Japanese OST.
4Kids actually kept more of the background music then TCPI ever has(at least in the show, strange how they don't replace the OST in the movies yet they do it with the show) which is weird to think of considering 4Kids totally replaced the soundtrack of every other show they dubbed. Guess they didn't have the budget to replace all of the music with Pokemon since it was their first time dubbing anime.
 

snowmint

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4Kids actually kept more of the background music then TCPI ever has(at least in the show, strange how they don't replace the OST in the movies yet they do it with the show) which is weird to think of considering 4Kids totally replaced the soundtrack of every other show they dubbed. Guess they didn't have the budget to replace all of the music with Pokemon since it was their first time dubbing anime.
Supposedly, the dinosaur king dub keeps some Japanese OST, but I've never been able to find any moment like that while bizarrely I've found an instance of Japanese OST being kept in the fighting foodons dub.
 
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4Kids actually kept more of the background music then TCPI ever has(at least in the show, strange how they don't replace the OST in the movies yet they do it with the show) which is weird to think of considering 4Kids totally replaced the soundtrack of every other show they dubbed. Guess they didn't have the budget to replace all of the music with Pokemon since it was their first time dubbing anime.
They did for a fact keep more on the whole than TPCI did if you average both runs out in the main Series, and that's a genuine point in the 4Kids' dub favor (for me, want to clarify that's just my opinion, everyone has their own), despite its flaws.

Even at their very worst in this aspect, the music situation was still better than TPCI has been about it the last 8 years now oddly (especially in the Anime dub, that's what has suffered the most musically overall- it was also true for the Movie dubs from Diancie to I Choose You!, though, but now they're going the late AG/late BW route of "Anime gets more music changes, Movies no" yet still absolutely worse musically since The Power of Us...as a larger %'age of the OST is still replaced in mid-late SM & Journeys than either too...and that's still not good enough in 2022, IMO, replacement scores were very commonplace in many dubs in the late 90s/early 00s so that's why I'm not as harsh on the first 3 Movies' rescoring though the 2nd Movie did keep 2 pieces of Japanese OST IIRC-- in addition to TPCI having had 4 Movies total with dub majority scored music to 4Kids' first 3 only objectively).

If there's a new thread on the dub, trust me, I'll say a lot about it. I don't want to deviate much, but I actually appreciate Dogasu's compares because we know what episodes/Movies/specials are actually done well in all the runs & what to avoid/not spend valuable time in each one on re-watching again IMO.
 
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PaperSplash

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I know I'm late but great comparison as always with "Meowth Rules!", Dogasu. Here are my personal takeaways:

  • Meowth from Team Rocket not being able to learn Pay Day is pretty common knowledge, I agree. I do know however that there was a minor but incorrect rumor surrounding the reasoning in English-speaking communities though (to the point where I had to take it off a Bulbapedia page), that Meowth talking was considered one of his moves and thus learning Pay Day would have exceeded the four-move limit (I know this wasn't really a thing in the anime at that point, but bear with me). This seems to have originated from a misheard line from this episode's dub, where Meowth saying "I used up all my smarts just learning how to talk" was misheard by some as "I used up all my slots just learning how to talk" (as in move slots). I always doubted this claim because it would be very out of character for 4Kids to directly reference mechanics from the games, especially now knowing that 4Kids glossed over an explicit reference to experience points from the games in the same episode as simply "experience". Anyway, I have yet to actually watch the episode in Japanese but I'm guessing he just said "all my energy" like how you referred to it?
  • Your mention of the Batman Beyond episode Kids' WB! allowed to air got me thinking It could just be the network's censors being fickle like you mentioned, but some of the content that American animated series got away with on there were almost never allowed in something like Pokémon or Yu-Gi-Oh. Although not on the same network, 4Kids' own American-produced Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series was noticeably more violent and intense than any of their anime licenses (barring Shaman King). I know in the context of this particular episode it's what didn't get censored rather than what did, but I can't help but wonder if there's at least somewhat of a double standard at play where foreign shows are normally subject to much more scrutiny than local ones are.
  • I've been pondering a potential alternative localization for the "Neko ni Koban" move that would incorporate an English cat-related idiom (seeing as "Pay Day" loses that entirely, as you pointed out). I ended up coming up with "Fat Cat". It ironically has the complete opposite meaning of "Neko ni Koban" (referring to someone who takes advantage of their wealth, rather than one who's unaware of it), but at least keeps the humorous cat-related idiom wordplay in English in a way that "Pay Day" or a literal translation of "Coin for a Cat" does not. I'd be interested in hearing other suggestions though.
  • Interesting that the coin jingling sound was toned down in this episode but four episodes ago they added it in when Nurse Joy was pouring the pills into Magikarp's mouth.
  • I feel like with the prophecy the cuts were because 4Kids added a mostly-superfluous fluff sentence at the beginning ("Tonight is the night we have long awaited, the night we finally see the ancient prophecy fulfilled") and so they didn't have room to keep some the existing parts as a result. Of course, it wouldn't have been an issue at all had they simply just not added that extra sentence.
  • I've noticed that some of the dub script writers seem to have an aversion to Meowth making cat noises at all for whatever reason, instead choosing to give him regular dialogue even when it doesn't make sense for him to talk like in the scene you mentioned it.
  • I can't say I'm really a fan of when dub scripts throw in those kinds of corny references, especially super dated references like the Popeye one, unless something similar was present in the original script and it clearly wasn't in this case.
  • I agree that "don't let the cat out of the bag" was a very clever way to translate "neko o kaburu" in this context.
  • To be fair, very few westerners would have known what "ganmo" is without it being explained to them, and there wasn't really any room for the dub to do so. But they could have simplified it to just tofu instead of changing it entirely to meatballs.
  • Unlike before, I'm coming up with a blank thinking of any English idiom that's comparable to the Japanese "cat's tongue" one, let alone a cat-related one. I guess I can't blame 4Kids for rewriting that line since the joke is just Meowth being picky about his food, whether it's the temperature or amount of it. (I also noticed that the second Orange Islands episode where the idiom was also used had the same writer, and that writer also wrote the Rumika/Jessebelle episode where "neko o kaburu" was previously used. I guess Junki Takegemi really likes his cat idioms.)
  • I actually found out about the "acolyte" and "druid" names for Mikeosu and Shimajio in the Prime Video closed captions myself and added that information to Bulbapedia. I don't want to brag but I do feel kind of honored that I indirectly helped with this comparison in some way.
  • I noticed that Meowth seems to say variations on the phrase "is it really OK"/"will it really be OK" several times in the Japanese version of this episode. I wonder if that's intentional or just arbitrary repetition, which seems to be frowned upon a lot less in Japanese writing compared to English writing.
  • I will admit that the "I got a lot of people to disappoint" dub line is pretty amusing even if it has virtually nothing to do with the original one. I can see how it eventually became a meme.
  • The only possible explanation I have for the sound effect thing is that 4Kids was probably unreasonably worried that their target audience would be confused if they saw a bunch of things happening on screen without any sound effects whatsoever. American TV execs seem to really like underestimating kids' attention span and intelligence.
  • Heh, nickels. As an American myself sometimes I fail to realize just how America-centric the dub of this show can be.
  • Man, some 4Kids writers must have a lot of spare time on their hands to rewrite whole conversations from scratch. Wouldn't it just be easier to take the already translated script and reword it slightly to sound more natural and match the mouth movements? Or is it actually easier for them to make up stuff from scratch? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way; I'm legitimately curious if anyone has answers. And no, it isn't just you, Dogasu. You've said as much yourself in the past, but the dub indeed seems to love making each member of the Team Rocket trio act ruder towards their teammates, especially Jessie.
 

snowmint

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I still wish Dogasu would Interview Michael Haigney, the dub script writer for the early seasons!
 

SammyW27

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Though something I'd like to say about the episode comparison about the Popeye reference:

thanks to the Genndy T movie, people looked into Popeye a little more for a while. Also, there was a home media movie released about the time the episode aired.

Besides, some references are classic and timeless.

Though let us all be grateful 4Kids didn't use the natives' cat cosplay & obsession as an excuse to reference Cats... ^shudder^ :sick:
 
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JinksChow

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Though something I'd like to say about the episode comparison about the Popeye reference:

thanks to the Genndy T movie, people looked into Popeye a little more for a while. Also, there was a home media movie released about the time the episode aired.

Besides, some references are classic and timeless.

Though let us all be grateful 4Kids didn't use the natives' cat cosplay & obsession as an excuse to reference Cats... shudder :sick:

I mean, wouldn't you say Meowth is so clever that it's almost... magical?

♪ And you'll all say ♪
♪ Oh, well I never, was there ever ♪
♪ A cat so clever as magical...
 

darksteel6

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I know I'm late but great comparison as always with "Meowth Rules!", Dogasu. Here are my personal takeaways:

  • Meowth from Team Rocket not being able to learn Pay Day is pretty common knowledge, I agree. I do know however that there was a minor but incorrect rumor surrounding the reasoning in English-speaking communities though (to the point where I had to take it off a Bulbapedia page), that Meowth talking was considered one of his moves and thus learning Pay Day would have exceeded the four-move limit (I know this wasn't really a thing in the anime at that point, but bear with me). This seems to have originated from a misheard line from this episode's dub, where Meowth saying "I used up all my smarts just learning how to talk" was misheard by some as "I used up all my slots just learning how to talk" (as in move slots). I always doubted this claim because it would be very out of character for 4Kids to directly reference mechanics from the games, especially now knowing that 4Kids glossed over an explicit reference to experience points from the games in the same episode as simply "experience". Anyway, I have yet to actually watch the episode in Japanese but I'm guessing he just said "all my energy" like how you referred to it?
  • Your mention of the Batman Beyond episode Kids' WB! allowed to air got me thinking It could just be the network's censors being fickle like you mentioned, but some of the content that American animated series got away with on there were almost never allowed in something like Pokémon or Yu-Gi-Oh. Although not on the same network, 4Kids' own American-produced Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series was noticeably more violent and intense than any of their anime licenses (barring Shaman King). I know in the context of this particular episode it's what didn't get censored rather than what did, but I can't help but wonder if there's at least somewhat of a double standard at play where foreign shows are normally subject to much more scrutiny than local ones are.
  • I've been pondering a potential alternative localization for the "Neko ni Koban" move that would incorporate an English cat-related idiom (seeing as "Pay Day" loses that entirely, as you pointed out). I ended up coming up with "Fat Cat". It ironically has the complete opposite meaning of "Neko ni Koban" (referring to someone who takes advantage of their wealth, rather than one who's unaware of it), but at least keeps the humorous cat-related idiom wordplay in English in a way that "Pay Day" or a literal translation of "Coin for a Cat" does not. I'd be interested in hearing other suggestions though.
  • Interesting that the coin jingling sound was toned down in this episode but four episodes ago they added it in when Nurse Joy was pouring the pills into Magikarp's mouth.
  • I feel like with the prophecy the cuts were because 4Kids added a mostly-superfluous fluff sentence at the beginning ("Tonight is the night we have long awaited, the night we finally see the ancient prophecy fulfilled") and so they didn't have room to keep some the existing parts as a result. Of course, it wouldn't have been an issue at all had they simply just not added that extra sentence.
  • I've noticed that some of the dub script writers seem to have an aversion to Meowth making cat noises at all for whatever reason, instead choosing to give him regular dialogue even when it doesn't make sense for him to talk like in the scene you mentioned it.
  • I can't say I'm really a fan of when dub scripts throw in those kinds of corny references, especially super dated references like the Popeye one, unless something similar was present in the original script and it clearly wasn't in this case.
  • I agree that "don't let the cat out of the bag" was a very clever way to translate "neko o kaburu" in this context.
  • To be fair, very few westerners would have known what "ganmo" is without it being explained to them, and there wasn't really any room for the dub to do so. But they could have simplified it to just tofu instead of changing it entirely to meatballs.
  • Unlike before, I'm coming up with a blank thinking of any English idiom that's comparable to the Japanese "cat's tongue" one, let alone a cat-related one. I guess I can't blame 4Kids for rewriting that line since the joke is just Meowth being picky about his food, whether it's the temperature or amount of it. (I also noticed that the second Orange Islands episode where the idiom was also used had the same writer, and that writer also wrote the Rumika/Jessebelle episode where "neko o kaburu" was previously used. I guess Junki Takegemi really likes his cat idioms.)
  • I actually found out about the "acolyte" and "druid" names for Mikeosu and Shimajio in the Prime Video closed captions myself and added that information to Bulbapedia. I don't want to brag but I do feel kind of honored that I indirectly helped with this comparison in some way.
  • I noticed that Meowth seems to say variations on the phrase "is it really OK"/"will it really be OK" several times in the Japanese version of this episode. I wonder if that's intentional or just arbitrary repetition, which seems to be frowned upon a lot less in Japanese writing compared to English writing.
  • I will admit that the "I got a lot of people to disappoint" dub line is pretty amusing even if it has virtually nothing to do with the original one. I can see how it eventually became a meme.
  • The only possible explanation I have for the sound effect thing is that 4Kids was probably unreasonably worried that their target audience would be confused if they saw a bunch of things happening on screen without any sound effects whatsoever. American TV execs seem to really like underestimating kids' attention span and intelligence.
  • Heh, nickels. As an American myself sometimes I fail to realize just how America-centric the dub of this show can be.
  • Man, some 4Kids writers must have a lot of spare time on their hands to rewrite whole conversations from scratch. Wouldn't it just be easier to take the already translated script and reword it slightly to sound more natural and match the mouth movements? Or is it actually easier for them to make up stuff from scratch? That's not a rhetorical question, by the way; I'm legitimately curious if anyone has answers. And no, it isn't just you, Dogasu. You've said as much yourself in the past, but the dub indeed seems to love making each member of the Team Rocket trio act ruder towards their teammates, especially Jessie.
That's interesting because 4Kids was kind of the opposite with Yugioh as Joey's friends Tristan and Tea made fun of him pretty much all the time in the original anime to the point where you wonder why he's even friends with them at all and it gets to the point where Kaiba bullying him doesn't really stand out at all, whereas the dub greatly toned that aspect down so that Tristan and Tea are way more supportive of Joey so that way Kaiba picking on him stands out all the more.
 

darksteel6

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Though something I'd like to say about the episode comparison about the Popeye reference:

thanks to the Genndy T movie, people looked into Popeye a little more for a while. Also, there was a home media movie released about the time the episode aired.

Besides, some references are classic and timeless.

Though let us all be grateful 4Kids didn't use the natives' cat cosplay & obsession as an excuse to reference Cats... shudder :sick:
That would've have been that out of place as I actually did know what Cats was back then due to Hey Arnold making fun of it by having Big Bob take Helga to some crappy play called "Rats".
 

Antiyonder

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Your mention of the Batman Beyond episode Kids' WB! allowed to air got me thinking It could just be the network's censors being fickle like you mentioned, but some of the content that American animated series got away with on there were almost never allowed in something like Pokémon or Yu-Gi-Oh. Although not on the same network, 4Kids' own American-produced Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series was noticeably more violent and intense than any of their anime licenses (barring Shaman King). I know in the context of this particular episode it's what didn't get censored rather than what did, but I can't help but wonder if there's at least somewhat of a double standard at play where foreign shows are normally subject to much more scrutiny than local ones are.
Yeah, I think parents expect foreign material for kids to be risqué.

But also going after what's popular. Like how Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Season 2 had to tone down Lord Zedd's more evil mannerisms through his wedding to Rita (though I think Linkara made a good case as to how he still made a good threat in Season 3).

Yet Darkonda from In Space was a lot more terrifying than even pre-marriage Zedd. Looking scary and also kidnapping a little girl. Cause while PR wasn't exactly unsuccessful, it was far from a top rated show at that point.
 

prog rocker

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That's interesting because 4Kids was kind of the opposite with Yugioh as Joey's friends Tristan and Tea made fun of him pretty much all the time in the original anime to the point where you wonder why he's even friends with them at all and it gets to the point where Kaiba bullying him doesn't really stand out at all, whereas the dub greatly toned that aspect down so that Tristan and Tea are way more supportive of Joey so that way Kaiba picking on him stands out all the more.
I mean, Tristan is kinda questionable considering the whole situation with Serenity, but that's my brother instinct talking. Surprised about learning this about Téa, though.
 

PaperSplash

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Yeah, I think parents expect foreign material for kids to be risqué.

But also going after what's popular. Like how Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Season 2 had to tone down Lord Zedd's more evil mannerisms through his wedding to Rita (though I think Linkara made a good case as to how he still made a good threat in Season 3).

Yet Darkonda from In Space was a lot more terrifying than even pre-marriage Zedd. Looking scary and also kidnapping a little girl. Cause while PR wasn't exactly unsuccessful, it was far from a top rated show at that point.
Hmm, interesting theory. But while most of them never quite reached Pokémon-level ratings, I don't think stuff like Batman Beyond and 2003 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were ever outside the realm of "popular" when they were first airing either. Especially since Batman and the Turtles were already incredibly recognizable names at that point. which might have actually helped ward off larger-scale parental complaints due to there being more trust in the brand. Perhaps this is also the actual reason why later seasons of Power Rangers got away with more intense content, although ironically, the opposite happened for later seasons of Batman Beyond and 2003 TMNT, which were toned down like season 2 of PR was.

Back to Pokémon, I also find it kind of amusing that despite Nintendo and 4Kids' best efforts to sanitize the series for a western audience, at the peak of its popularity it still received numerous complaints from parental groups accusing the series of promoting violence and various forms of blasphemy (up to and including Satanism). It makes me wonder how many more complaints it would have received if several of the more overt physical violence and religious references were allowed to remain intact, or if such controversy was equally inevitable either way.
 

darksteel6

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Hmm, interesting theory. But while most of them never quite reached Pokémon-level ratings, I don't think stuff like Batman Beyond and 2003 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were ever outside the realm of "popular" when they were first airing either. Especially since Batman and the Turtles were already incredibly recognizable names at that point. which might have actually helped ward off larger-scale parental complaints due to there being more trust in the brand. Perhaps this is also the actual reason why later seasons of Power Rangers got away with more intense content, although ironically, the opposite happened for later seasons of Batman Beyond and 2003 TMNT, which were toned down like season 2 of PR was.

Back to Pokémon, I also find it kind of amusing that despite Nintendo and 4Kids' best efforts to sanitize the series for a western audience, at the peak of its popularity it still received numerous complaints from parental groups accusing the series of promoting violence and various forms of blasphemy (up to and including Satanism). It makes me wonder how many more complaints it would have received if several of the more overt physical violence and religious references were allowed to remain intact, or if such controversy was equally inevitable either way.
Exactly, and despite how much 4Kids censored Shaman King they still got a crapton of complaints from parents over that one.
 

prog rocker

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They also got lots of complains for Yu-Gi-Oh!, if I recall correctly, partly because their censorship made things worse (at least here, it did).
 

prog rocker

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What? Like kids pointing their fingers in an intimidating fashion? :LOL:
The whole Shadow Realm thing caused my parents to destroy my cards...

I still want to vomit remembering that since I had a card that could have been worth a lot at the time... (or at least, I think so).
 

Antiyonder

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The whole Shadow Realm thing caused my parents to destroy my cards...

I still want to vomit remembering that since I had a card that could have been worth a lot at the time... (or at least, I think so).
Wow! Hope they made it up to you or at least that you got back at them.:sneaky:
 
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