Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

[snowmint]

I thought the current digimon 2020 reboot dub actually dubbed it's openings from the Japanese version?

 

[darksteel6]

The funny thing about this is that Nelvana did dubbed all 70 episodes of Cardcaptors and they were shown in Canada, the UK, and Australia. While in the US, it was Kids WB that cut it up to 39 episodes and try to made the show appeal only for boys and make Li the main character.

Yeah and there was one 4Kids dubbed episode of One Piece that had a violent scene uncut on DVD, which proves at least some of that shows censorship was more due to TV network censors then 4Kids themselves.

 

[snowmint]

Same thing with some wacky kidswb only edits to pokemon.

 

[darksteel6]

The next addition of Dogasu's backpack will be an interesting one

Wow 22 pages for only the first half! Out of all the 4Kids episodes this one sounds like it takes the record for the most changes.

 

[Charmander4]

PUSA and TPCI always had “control” or oversight even when 4Kids dubbed it. Which is why the notion they “took it back” isn’t really true. It’s still to this day handled by a third party.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

PUSA and TPCI always had “control” or oversight even when 4Kids dubbed it. Which is why the notion they “took it back” isn’t really true. It’s still to this day handled by a third party.

If this is true, then I SERIOUSLY want to know what Armen Mazlumian of TAJ (also now defunct like 4Kids & DuArt) who PUSA/TPCI handed the rights back to after 4Kids got canned, was on when he thought the current cast "sounded-alike" at any remote point to the original cast, that's for sure, it's like PUSA/TPCi didn't even LISTEN to the 4Kids cast to me before casting who they did back then (vividly remember that I strongly disagreed with Dogasu on Lilian Meridian & Scott in his Reviews re: the former who I thought had inhaled helium and was another Kayzie Rogers sounds like a grandmother instead of a young woman role IIRC, I thought Scott sounded slimy AFTER the change-- but I strongly agreed with his takes on Harley though back then & Sukizo though- yes, I read all of his Reviews as a child still remembering all those minor incidental characters that never appeared post-DP really as well & I think I hated DP005's the most and loved DP153's the most personally).

How JCC & Kayzie got to make the jump others couldn't or weren't asked to back then, will always rub me the wrong way, among how he talked down to the late Blaustein on the forums here back then on that note (that being said, may he recover from cancer, I'm not heartless- and Kayzie has retired from VA in 2017, all the best to her I suppose).

Side Note: The script writing team all getting laid off but Mr. Cathcart was also something I was sad about, surprisingly.

It's ironic that TPCi is now doing all the same stuff 4Kids did in practices, years after the latter went out of business, and even replaced more of the OST in #pokeAni than the latter by this point no less (among chopping the OPs in half the length of the old ones in the dub) via their Iyuno Group studio they supervise that said these days.

 

[Poke Trey]

Nothing wrong with in-house dubbing. Good amount of cartoons and dubs these days are usually done from a specific place anyways. Pokemon is literally no different than any of them.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

Nothing wrong with in-house dubbing. Good amount of cartoons and dubs these days are usually done from a specific place anyways. Pokemon is literally no different than any of them.

FUNimation did this too with Dragonball Z originally to reduce costs on the production in late 1999 at that time, for a similar reason as TPCi did with Pokémon in late 2006 (I find the former was more justified a change personally though, just me, because Barry Watson back then legitimately couldn't make flights to Canada from Texas in those days as to why it was too expensive, whereas in this case, TAJ was based in New York just like 4Kids in late 2006 and they could've obviously kept the VAs & writers not just JCC in the latter case that...TAJ/PUSA had LITERALLY worked with in the past for close to 5 years...it will forever shock me TAJ Productions cast both the original English voice cast and the current English voice casts, considering that whichever one you prefer or if you prefer some roles from one or another etc., they all sound VERY different from each other & no one sane bought the "sound-alike" claims from PUSA at the time of the change). It also happened after only 2 years, whereas this occurred after 8 years, as well.

It's normal and commonplace these days (Sonic has gone through tons of English cast changes, even the 2010 Studiopolis LA Cast just got changed in 2021 to a Canadian cast for Sonic Prime), but back in those Eras, it was exceedingly rare in comparison.

Side Note to keep this relevant: Looks like "The Mandarin Island Mismatch" was probably the worst episode script-wise in Season 2's dub, yikes, looks like they just made stuff up here! I agree with what Tommy told Dogasu on Twitter, though, technically they did keep 100% of the OST even if they did fill in silent moments with their own dub BGM & I'm not someone hard on them for that personally.

I wonder if I'll like this episode more in Japanese, always remember Ash was acting OOC to me vs other eps there? We'll see.

 

[darksteel6]

FUNimation did this too with Dragonball Z originally to reduce costs on the production in late 1999 at that time, for a similar reason as TPCi did with Pokémon in late 2006 (I find the former was more justified a change personally though, just me, because Barry Watson back then legitimately couldn't make flights to Canada from Texas in those days as to why it was too expensive, whereas in this case, TAJ was based in New York just like 4Kids in late 2006 and they could've obviously kept the VAs & writers not just JCC in the latter case that...TAJ/PUSA had LITERALLY worked with in the past for close to 5 years...it will forever shock me TAJ Productions cast both the original English voice cast and the current English voice casts, considering that whichever one you prefer or if you prefer some roles from one or another etc., they all sound VERY different from each other & no one sane bought the "sound-alike" claims from PUSA at the time of the change). It also happened after only 2 years, whereas this occurred after 8 years, as well.

It's normal and commonplace these days (Sonic has gone through tons of English cast changes, even the 2010 Studiopolis LA Cast just got changed in 2021 to a Canadian cast for Sonic Prime), but back in those Eras, it was exceedingly rare in comparison.

Side Note to keep this relevant: Looks like "The Mandarin Island Mismatch" was probably the worst episode script-wise in Season 2's dub, yikes, looks like they just made stuff up here! I agree with what Tommy told Dogasu on Twitter, though, technically they did keep 100% of the OST even if they did fill in silent moments with their own dub BGM & I'm not someone hard on them for that personally.

I wonder if I'll like this episode more in Japanese, always remember Ash was acting OOC to me vs other eps there? We'll see.

Yeah personally I don't really care if silent moments get filled in with music, besides it's not like 4Kids invented that practice, Disney were actually the first ones to do it(at least I believe so) with their English dub of Kiki's Delivery Service. Michael Eisner asked for permission from the original creators to add in more music to fill in silent scenes, saying that American kids weren't used to silent moments in animated movies. Though some changes were later reverted for the 2010 DVD release.

 

[snowmint]

It was a different time back then... But TPCi sadly still lives in the past.

 

[PaperSplash]

I think a lot of people here give the 4Kids era of Pokémon's dub too much credit (and that's not to say it doesn't have its own issues now). The main things it had going for it was (arguably) the voice acting and some of Team Rocket's rewritten dialogue was genuinely amusing. But it was still rewritten dialogue, and it wasn't limited to Team Rocket back then either. Entire conversations were frequently rewritten in a way that simply doesn't happen anymore. You could make other subjective arguments like the replacement music being better but again, still replacement music. They honestly shouldn't have been messing with the music at all and when people argue about the quality or amount kept, it feels like arguing over table scraps to be blunt.

 

[HylianBelmont]

I think a lot of people here give the 4Kids era of Pokémon's dub too much credit (and that's not to say it doesn't have its own issues now). The main things it had going for it was (arguably) the voice acting and some of Team Rocket's rewritten dialogue was genuinely amusing. But it was still rewritten dialogue, and it wasn't limited to Team Rocket back then either. Entire conversations were frequently rewritten in a way that simply doesn't happen anymore. You could make other subjective arguments like the replacement music being better but again, still replacement music. They honestly shouldn't have been messing with the music at all and when people argue about the quality or amount kept, it feels like arguing over table scraps to be blunt.

I definitely understand where you're coming from here, and I'm saying that as someone who appreciates both dubs for what they are.

In regards to the music... While I agree it would have been for the better had they always kept the original OST, I do think there are some standout tracks from the dub's composers (Even from XY-onward) that I wish they could officially release. It would be nice to be able to enjoy them outside of the "wall-to-wall" placement in the show itself, I feel.

 

[Poke Trey]

They include a pop soundtrack in the first two Pokémon movie in order to make the film seem more Hollywood than the Japanese version.

I like pop music. In fact, I appreciate mainstream music more than most people I know. Those movie soundtracks does make me wince admittedly.

 

[PaperSplash]

They include a pop soundtrack in the first two Pokémon movie in order to make the film seem more Hollywood than the Japanese version.

That to me betrays a lack of confidence that the product they were trying to sell would do well on its own merits without needing to match the commercial zeitgeist of the time.

If anything could have gotten away with not doing that, it would have been Pokémon which sold like hotcakes mostly from brand awareness and momentum alone.

The pop songs the first two movie dubs did go with were largely forgotten to time in any case, with only each movie's leading ending theme ("We're a Miracle" by Christina Aguilera and "The Power of One" by Donna Summer) seeming to have any sort of lasting positive impact (many also remember the "Pikachu's Vacation" songs, "Brother My Brother" from the first movie and Weird Al's "Polkamon" from the second, but mostly out of notoriety with them being "so bad, they're good" at best).

But most importantly, contrary to Norman J. Grossfeld's infamous comment on the matter, I especially don't see how American kids (and other non-American kids in the west, an audience 4Kids often seemed to treat as an afterthought) wouldn't "respond" well to the first movie's original ending theme, "Kaze to Issho ni"/"Together With the Wind". Even with the enka singer, I don't even see how it could be considered "too Japanese" or anything. While it may not have been in line with the latest trends of the time (and again, it didn't need to be) I think it was reminiscent enough of the songs you'd hear in classic Hollywood movies that it would have worked just fine in the west if it was dubbed with the rest of the movie.

 

[Yami-no-Game]

Tbh one of the things that irks me about DB (aside from the manga updates since hardly anyone cares about the manga or the Lucky Lucky song translation that nobody wanted that has tons of forced wordplay that just doesn't make much sense anyways) is the double standard when it comes to wordplay in general.

I've read pretty much every episode comparison on the site and I noticed that one of the recurring complaints in them is how 4Kids will use wordplay or puns that don't translate well in other languages (Spanish, German, Italian, etc.), but there's never any negative comments about how the Japanese episodes have tons more wordplay and puns too that don't translate well into English. So why is it okay for the Japanese version to have copious amounts of hard-to-translate jokes yet the English 4Kids version is constantly bashed for the same exact thing...?

That to me betrays a lack of confidence that the product they were trying to sell would do well on its own merits without needing to match the commercial zeitgeist of the time.

If anything could have gotten away with not doing that, it would have been Pokémon which sold like hotcakes mostly from brand awareness and momentum alone.

The pop songs the first two movie dubs did go with were largely forgotten to time in any case, with only each movie's leading ending theme ("We're a Miracle" by Christina Aguilera and "The Power of One" by Donna Summer) seeming to have any sort of lasting positive impact (many also remember the "Pikachu's Vacation" songs, "Brother My Brother" from the first movie and Weird Al's "Polkamon" from the second, but mostly out of notoriety with them being "so bad, they're good" at best).

But most importantly, contrary to Norman J. Grossfeld's infamous comment on the matter, I especially don't see how American kids (and other non-American kids in the west, an audience 4Kids often seemed to treat as an afterthought) wouldn't "respond" well to the first movie's original ending theme, "Kaze to Issho ni"/"Together With the Wind". Even with the enka singer, I don't even see how it could be considered "too Japanese" or anything. While it may not have been in line with the latest trends of the time (and again, it didn't need to be) I think it was reminiscent enough of the songs you'd hear in classic Hollywood movies that it would have worked just fine in the west if it was dubbed with the rest of the movie.

Do people really believe that the audience would've wanted to hear a vocal song in Japanese with lyrics that they wouldn't even understand over generic late 90's English pop songs? Not that the English movie's soundtrack was anything special, but that Don't Say You Love Me song for example was at least a moderate hit in part because it was so catchy and generic enough for radio. The Kaze to Issho ni song is pretty and has novelty appeal to some English fans, but it wouldn't have been remotely as popular nor as successful as some of the English songs that we got.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

I think a lot of people here give the 4Kids era of Pokémon's dub too much credit (and that's not to say it doesn't have its own issues now). The main things it had going for it was (arguably) the voice acting and some of Team Rocket's rewritten dialogue was genuinely amusing. But it was still rewritten dialogue, and it wasn't limited to Team Rocket back then either. Entire conversations were frequently rewritten in a way that simply doesn't happen anymore. You could make other subjective arguments like the replacement music being better but again, still replacement music. They honestly shouldn't have been messing with the music at all and when people argue about the quality or amount kept, it feels like arguing over table scraps to be blunt.

I do feel the quality of the dub score and the amount kept does matter, even if it may be table scraps to some, it at least makes the dub more bearable to me depending on both those factors. At least we never got <20% kept of the OST in the Anime dub until XY (or replacement scores from the Movies from mid-Johto in OS onward to the end of BW until then, too, didn't stop until Movie 21), what we get nowadays, is just...I don't even know what to say, on that front.

Something else the 4Kids era of Pokémon did a lot better than TPCi Era besides what you've mentioned (in my book, and yes, it was the voice acting I found substantially better than really anything TPCi has done since including their side productions & TRio's amusing dialogue as points I would argue in its favor), are the opening themes/intros and Ash's dialogue/script writing, respectively. Their shortest OP is still 45 seconds long, and the longest TPCi OP was 32 ish seconds, and on top of that, they seemed to lose variety in lyrics after the change-over. Not saying they were as good as the Japanese OPs still, but they were pretty solid entries in the 8 they did produce (Chronicles excluded, I don't care about the side stories though personally). Regarding Ash's dialogue, outside of The Mandarin Island Mismatch as an exception, I found them to write him in a way that wasn't obnoxiously rude, patronizing, and endearingly warm: he was also quite savage at times early on, whereas he got more dull as time progressed in that department. It may have been only dub exclusive dialogue at times, but they made him come across like your everyday young boy-- and he never felt like he talked down to me most of the time. TPCi, on the other hand, the stuff they've had him say like "I'm not a noob," "Pikachu's gonna be wiped," "That's the way we roll," "Alright, Froakie, this is where we really need to step on the gas," etc. just rubbed me the wrong way. It was particularly bad in BF & DP dubbed, though, all the "And a'course," "Ya see," "Ya know."

The thing I think gets too much credit is TPCi's dub of DP: a lot of people think that DP kept a lot of the OST, which is an untrue statement, even the "best" TPCi dubbed season of that is still under half kept like the 4Kids dub of mid Johto onward in the Anime (so how was it that great in that department, outside the random episode that kept the OST and such, few and far between?), the voice acting is some truly subpar stuff for their first full saga (subjective, I know, but given the hype many have claimed re: "improvement" I felt the opposite) with for some reason confusing deepening voices and gruff acting as solid for some reason for the male characters in particular (when no one aged), JCC's script writing was outright unbearable for the Team Rocket Trio throughout that Series-- plus even Brock rhymed and alliterated sometimes when he flirted in the dub when he didn't in Japanese, etc (e.g. from Season 13 = "Like limpid pools on a babbling brook, let me draw closer so I can have a good look! Because when it comes to the beauty of Officer Jenny, I always get good and shook. Date me, break me!"). I remember that is the saga that soured me the most on the current dub, as a child (I didn't like the BF dub change either, but I remember getting increasingly angry as DP went on the most). Before XY, this was the dub at its worst on the whole for me, the common opinion these days is XY-JN is the worst of the dub for many (I share that opinion) but I never thought things were good unlike many in DP (BF is the saga most panned dub-wise before Goldfarb's Era, from what I can tell).

I prefer the "style" in which 4Kids rewrote the scripts to TPCi's: this is the only time I will actively defend 4Kids' script writing for a Series in Pokémon, compared to what we've had the last 17 years, overall. JCC's style in the TPCi dub felt robotic and stiff at best to me (his best work was, much like the current dub itself, Season 14 of BW) and at worst, just...look at Ash in BF/early DP's writing, TR in DP or XY's writing in particular, Bonnie's "Coochy coo," "Try, try, try," and Max's "Wow, you talk great!" as some examples, it was particularly annoying in Seasons 10-13 in DP for me).

Do people really believe that the audience would've wanted to hear a vocal song in Japanese with lyrics that they wouldn't even understand over generic late 90's English pop songs? Not that the English movie's soundtrack was anything special, but that Don't Say You Love Me song for example was at least a moderate hit in part because it was so catchy and generic enough for radio. The Kaze to Issho ni song is pretty and has novelty appeal to some English fans, but it wouldn't have been remotely as popular nor as successful as some of the English songs that we got.

I love the old dub compared to what it was permanently replaced with, but even I agree w/PaperSplash on this one: it was misguided. I have nostalgia for the first Movie dub, but it is truly a train-wreck from an objective standpoint. That's not to say I thought M22's dub was good, either, they couldn't decide what they wanted it to be and it appeals to no one but fans of the current dub as a result as well (jelly donuts back, dumb, still copying 4Kids' re-written script in the second half, dumb, and lastly, trying to pretend TPCi's VA roster was there from the outset in those roles, offensive even though I'm aware they've been the current dub cast since September 2006-- all adding up to a soulless rehash of an already not great film dubbed).

 

[PaperSplash]

Tbh one of the things that irks me about DB (aside from the manga updates since hardly anyone cares about the manga or the Lucky Lucky song translation that nobody wanted that has tons of forced wordplay that just doesn't make much sense anyways) is the double standard when it comes to wordplay in general.

I think comments like this are more than a little uncalled for, if not flat-out rude. You know Dogasu is doing this all during his free time for no compensation whatsoever, right? Frankly, he doesn't owe us anything. Constructive criticism is one thing but if you simply don't care about the content, I have to ask why you even bothered posting here.

I've read pretty much every episode comparison on the site and I noticed that one of the recurring complaints in them is how 4Kids will use wordplay or puns that don't translate well in other languages (Spanish, German, Italian, etc.), but there's never any comments about how the Japanese episodes have tons more wordplay and puns too that don't translate well into English. So why is it okay for the Japanese version to have copious amounts of hard-to-translate jokes yet the English 4Kids version is constantly bashed for the same exact thing...?

One of the most common explanations former 4Kids staffers (Michael Haigney, Eric Stuart and the like) used (and often still use) for why they did what they did is that they were trying to make the shows they dubbed "internationally friendly" – understandable by anyone regardless of native language or country. Inserting a bunch of hard-to-translate English puns and American-centric pop culture references goes against that stated ethos. They were well aware most countries used the "international" English version they make as a basis for their own dubs (and not necessarily by choice either) and claim to have designed it around that, so why did they make the non-English localizers' work harder in that regard by including all those puns and references?

The Japanese version, on the other hand, was originally not designed with an international audience in mind – Kanto makes that quite clear – and even when they started taking international audiences into account, they only really made surface-level aesthetic changes to compensate like phasing out Japanese text on signs and attempting to do the same with Takeshi/Brock. But most importantly, they never explicitly promised a fully "internationally-friendly" version like 4Kids did on multiple occasions.

Do people really believe that the audience would've wanted to hear a vocal song in Japanese with lyrics that they wouldn't even understand over generic late 90's English pop songs? Not that the English movie's soundtrack was anything special, but that Don't Say You Love Me song for example was at least a moderate hit in part because it was so catchy and generic enough for radio. The Kaze to Issho ni song is pretty and has novelty appeal to some English fans, but it wouldn't have been remotely as popular nor as successful as some of the English songs that we got.

That's why I made sure to mention it would be dubbed with the rest of the movie. And is "generic" supposed to be a good thing in this case...? I mean, to each their own and all that – genuinely – but personally I prefer my Pokémon movie songs to actually fit the film, if not the franchise as a whole. And I don't think being a hit on the radio should be the be-all end-all for songs in general. Of course, some songs have that as their end goal, and that's fine, but I think making that a blanket expectation for songs in general would only limit the potential for creativity in the medium. Popular songs in any given language already get accused of sounding samey enough as is.

 

[darksteel6]

That to me betrays a lack of confidence that the product they were trying to sell would do well on its own merits without needing to match the commercial zeitgeist of the time.

If anything could have gotten away with not doing that, it would have been Pokémon which sold like hotcakes mostly from brand awareness and momentum alone.

The pop songs the first two movie dubs did go with were largely forgotten to time in any case, with only each movie's leading ending theme ("We're a Miracle" by Christina Aguilera and "The Power of One" by Donna Summer) seeming to have any sort of lasting positive impact (many also remember the "Pikachu's Vacation" songs, "Brother My Brother" from the first movie and Weird Al's "Polkamon" from the second, but mostly out of notoriety with them being "so bad, they're good" at best).

But most importantly, contrary to Norman J. Grossfeld's infamous comment on the matter, I especially don't see how American kids (and other non-American kids in the west, an audience 4Kids often seemed to treat as an afterthought) wouldn't "respond" well to the first movie's original ending theme, "Kaze to Issho ni"/"Together With the Wind". Even with the enka singer, I don't even see how it could be considered "too Japanese" or anything. While it may not have been in line with the latest trends of the time (and again, it didn't need to be) I think it was reminiscent enough of the songs you'd hear in classic Hollywood movies that it would have worked just fine in the west if it was dubbed with the rest of the movie.

M2M's "Don't Say You Love Me" seems to have been fondly remembered, it's got quite a few views on Youtube. I'd love to see Todd in the Shadows do a "One Hit Wonderland" episode on that song one of these days.
I was personally fine with the soundtrack and I totally get why it was done that way at the time as back then there was a separation between "real anime" like Miyazaki's films that were distributed by Disney and stayed pretty faithful to the original dub and stuff like Pokemon that was mostly aimed at younger audiences, so the logic must've been to put in pop songs to appeal to the kids. It certainly worked on me at any rate and I remember renting the Pokemon CDs from my local library and listening to them many times.
I don't think 4Kids made more work for other localizers personally. As from what i've heard many foreign dubs of anime 4Kids dubbed like F-Zero GP Legend keep 4Kids scripts pretty much intact.

 

[AgedVeteranofShow]

M2M's "Don't Say You Love Me" seems to have been fondly remembered, it's got quite a few views on Youtube. I'd love to see Todd in the Shadows do a "One Hit Wonderland" episode on that song one of these days.
I was personally fine with the soundtrack and I totally get why it was done that way at the time as back then there was a separation between "real anime" like Miyazaki's films that were distributed by Disney and stayed pretty faithful to the original dub and stuff like Pokemon that was mostly aimed at younger audiences, so the logic must've been to put in pop songs to appeal to the kids. It certainly worked on me at any rate and I remember renting the Pokemon CDs from my local library and listening to them many times.
I don't think 4Kids made more work for other localizers personally. As from what i've heard many foreign dubs of anime 4Kids dubbed like F-Zero GP Legend keep 4Kids scripts pretty much intact.

I think 4Kids' best dub exclusive Movie score was probably The Movie 2000, and best of the first 3 dub-scored Movies (again, I have to praise them for cutting this out afterward w/4Ever to their end though, once again Goldfarb's Diancie-I Choose You made this stand out in consistency from TPCi's run, the last 5 they did all kept their OSTs they handled before "the violent purge" as I call it), Entei/Spell of the Unown in general, but there was no need for all this in reality.

That said, it was a different time, it was the late 1990s-2001 after all and most dubs were still not treated well back then so this was the normal way of thinking in those times. It worked on me as well, but it hasn't aged well either, per se.

If it were up to me, I'd never have re-scored, re-written, anything etc. back then, but Anime was much more niche back and dubbing standards in general were not very high outside of some Anime like Cowboy Bebop so I'm more merciful of it then than in 2023 right now.

 

[snowmint]

Tbh one of the things that irks me about DB (aside from the manga updates since hardly anyone cares about the manga or the Lucky Lucky song translation that nobody wanted that has tons of forced wordplay that just doesn't make much sense anyways) is the double standard when it comes to wordplay in general.

I've read pretty much every episode comparison on the site and I noticed that one of the recurring complaints in them is how 4Kids will use wordplay or puns that don't translate well in other languages (Spanish, German, Italian, etc.), but there's never any negative comments about how the Japanese episodes have tons more wordplay and puns too that don't translate well into English. So why is it okay for the Japanese version to have copious amounts of hard-to-translate jokes yet the English 4Kids version is constantly bashed for the same exact thing...?


Do people really believe that the audience would've wanted to hear a vocal song in Japanese with lyrics that they wouldn't even understand over generic late 90's English pop songs? Not that the English movie's soundtrack was anything special, but that Don't Say You Love Me song for example was at least a moderate hit in part because it was so catchy and generic enough for radio. The Kaze to Issho ni song is pretty and has novelty appeal to some English fans, but it wouldn't have been remotely as popular nor as successful as some of the English songs that we got.

I'm sure a lot of the dialogue in the Japanese eversion is just played straight. This is why the current dub is pretty sterile for years since it follows the Japanese version pretty closely barring team rocket apparently.