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Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

Blackjack Gabbiani

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But they also have things like the Shamouti Island festival, and I don't know about you, but that island looked like it was full of Inuit symbols to me, the way all the art looked. And Shamouti is what, 100 miles off the Kanto coast? It'd still be "Japan", but it's decidedly un-Japanese. It doesn't even look Ainu, as rare is it is for Japanese media to include Ainu trappings in their stuff.

And Snake Bandage, that was the confirmed version. The myth was that 4Kids or someone on the English end *told* them to do it because they thought a character who looked like Brock wouldn't be popular.
 

Weedle Mchairybug

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So the only people in Japanese cartoons who are actually Japanese are the ones who are drawn to look Japanese?

I think it's pretty effing obvious that the characters are supposed to be Japanese here. They all have Japanese names, like Japanese food, celebrate Japanese holidays, and follow a number of Japanese customs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_test
No, no, no, no... I was just mentioning how Masamitsu Hidaka mentioned in the interview that they feared that Brock would be considered a racial stereotype due to the fact that he was the only one of the Main Cast to be oriental in WPM's interview (Or at least, he hinted that it was the case, due to the fact that he said that "it was his eyes".).

Also, in regards to the height of Lt. Surge being deliberate... Umm, correct me if I'm mistaken, but Hidaka stated that they modeled Tracey Sketchitt off of an Anglo-saxon kind of Guy (in other words, a white american person) in order to play it safe just in case Brock WAS Percieved as a racial stereotype, and he's barely as tall as Brock.
 

Pokemaster Justin

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I think their Pokemon characters with no ethnicity what so ever, they are drawings...

Also wasn't Santa Claus in an episode, I wasn't aware that Japanese people celebreate Christmas in that fashion.
 

KuwabaraTheMan

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Also, in regards to the height of Lt. Surge being deliberate... Umm, correct me if I'm mistaken, but Hidaka stated that they modeled Tracey Sketchitt off of an Anglo-saxon kind of Guy (in other words, a white american person) in order to play it safe just in case Brock WAS Percieved as a racial stereotype, and he's barely as tall as Brock.
I think the difference is that Kenji was just supposed to look decidedly 'un-Japanese', with light skin, clear eyes, etc.

Machisu was the epitome of every single Japanese stereotype of Americans rolled into one. Extremely tall and large, blond hair, arrogant, very showboaty, etc.
 

Jorah

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Sure, speaking English doesn't mean that you're American, but the fact that she does means that there's a possibility.

Besides, Americans aren't the only foreigners who are taller than Japanese people.
It looked like Fantina was drinking tea. Tea and scones are the currency of which country? Yup...England. (unless they're drinking some Japanese drink, now I look like an idiot)
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4953/sipbz1.jpg
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/3897/sippingteamaybeyv8.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6135/teaforalloe5.jpg
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8625/spoonsjj5.jpg

But I've never seen them drink tea before in Pokemon.
 

Weedle Mchairybug

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Machisu was the epitome of every single Japanese stereotype of Americans rolled into one. Extremely tall and large, blond hair, arrogant, very showboaty, etc.
Ironically, Gaston, a frenchman, has most of those qualities as well (He obviously doesn't have blonde hair, but he was definitely extremely tall and large, arrogant, very showboaty, among other things.).

Also, I thought that Fantina, in the original games, spoke with a distinct accent?
 

Jorah

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Oh, well when I started watching Advanced Battle I had no idea what was going on because of May and everything haha so I forgot a lot from when I got back into Pokemon. But yeah, I remember him having tea now.
 

Dogasu

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How in the world does tea = instantly British??

Weedle Mchairybug said:
Also, in regards to the height of Lt. Surge being deliberate... Umm, correct me if I'm mistaken, but Hidaka stated that they modeled Tracey Sketchitt off of an Anglo-saxon kind of Guy (in other words, a white american person) in order to play it safe just in case Brock WAS Percieved as a racial stereotype, and he's barely as tall as Brock.
Kenji's also closer to being the same age as Satoshi and the others. While Machisu, we can assume, is at least ten years older than everyone who came into the gym that day.

Besides, no one ever said that Kenji was supposed to be American. Just that he was supposed to look less Japanese. There are plenty of Japanese people in Japan who, for some reason or another, don't look "as Japanese" as other Japanese people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Hirai

Pokemaster Justin said:
Also wasn't Santa Claus in an episode, I wasn't aware that Japanese people celebreate Christmas in that fashion.
True, but you also have shows like Neon Genesis Evangelion that's full of Christian imagery even though less than 1% of the country is actually of that faith.
 

Dogasu

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OK. Replace the word "American" in my post with the word "white." My point's still the same.
 

Weedle Mchairybug

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if you were referring to the saying "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck", Part of that falls apart with the "looks like a duck" part, as the only main character who looks Japanese is Brock. As for japanese names, Machisu is a japanese name, yet his nationality is an American (Not to mention his character's that of the American Stereotype). Just because someone has a Japanese name doesn't necessarily mean they ARE Japanese.

As for Japanese Holidays, even you yourself stated that practicing holidays doesn't make you of a nationality (the whole Santa Clause thing), I mean, if only 1% of Japan actually celebrates Christmas, then what makes you think that these characters are Japanese just because they participated in holidays?

For Japanese customs, err all right, you kinda got me there, but some of the customs (like manners, a working hard work ethic, among other things) are also available in the States and in the states.

I'm only stating these things because, unless they are explicitly stated as being from Japan, I won't say they are Japanese (just because they came from a Japanese anime doesn't mean that the characters in themselves are Japanese. Besides, Dragon Ball Z is made in Japan, has some Japanese references (Kareoki, some holidays, hard work ethic, Sakuras, among other things, even some of the names (Son Goku, for example, is the Japanese translation of Sun Wukong)), and yet it's been canonically proven that DBZ takes place on a separate earth.), it's not meant to be an attack.
 

Blackjack Gabbiani

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If Brock looks so obviously Japanese, how come most of the (English-speaking) fandom thinks he looks Hispanic?

Also I've heard Machisu written as Mattise...which is French (although I suppose that goes with the topic I just put up about Romanization). Also he could have taken a name in the local tradition when he moved there, like a lot of people do when they move to a new area of the world.

Although I do think you have a point about the DB-verse.
 

Mooites

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I think Brock looks Phillipno. Dark skin with Aisan eyes? dont mean to be racist but dont you see it?
 

Zeta

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I think Brock looks like Chad from Bleach - dark skin with Asian features and curly hair, which sort of points to the same background Chad has - Japanese people who immigrated to South America during WWII and then immigrated back into Japan in the '80s and '90s with mixed-race children. It sort of fits with the theme of Latin music Brock has going with Ludicolo and Takeshi no Paradise.
 

Jorah

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JB88

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I wonder happened to Joe. I wonder what happened to all of those "next time we meet, we'll battle, ok?" people.
 

Dogasu

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Weedle Mchairybug said:
if you were referring to the saying "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck", Part of that falls apart with the "looks like a duck" part, as the only main character who looks Japanese is Brock.
By that logic, nobody in Japan ever makes any cartoons about Japanese people EVER because anime characters don't "look" Japanese (which I'm assuming you mean dark hair + almond-shaped eyes).

The "looks like a duck" saying basically means that if something has a combination of similarities, then it's safe to assume that that's what it is. Alone, the individual traits mean little, but when one looks at them as a whole, that person has a much better argument for something being what he or she claims.

The idea that Satoshi-tachi aren't Japanese just because they don't look Japanese is pretty short-sighted, IMO.

Besides...have you seen the clothes that our heroes wear? That short sleeved hoodie Satoshi wore throughout Advanced Generation just SCREAMS Japan to me.

As for japanese names, Machisu is a japanese name, yet his nationality is an American
Like Blackjack said, lots of foreigners live in Japan and adopt more Japanese-sounding names after living there for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debito_Arudou

As for Japanese Holidays, even you yourself stated that practicing holidays doesn't make you of a nationality (the whole Santa Clause thing)
Again...it's a combination of characteristics. Celebrating Japanese holidays by itself doesn't mean much, but celebrating Japanese holidays and eating a very Japanese diet and having Japanese names and following Japanese customs does.

Besides, Christmas is present in Japan as well. Most people couldn't tell you that it's on December 25th or that it's supposed to be a celebration of Christ's birthday, but they are aware that it exists.

Meanwhile...how many people in America know about (much less celebrate) Girls' Day? Or summer festival?

Jorah said:
Eh...I'm not seeing it :/
 

Weedle Mchairybug

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By that logic, nobody in Japan ever makes any cartoons about Japanese people EVER because anime characters don't "look" Japanese (which I'm assuming you mean dark hair + almond-shaped eyes).
Well, if we want to get technical, the Pokemon world isn't exactly Japan (it may be based off of it, but that doesn't mean that it IS Japan), I mean, Porta Vista was based off of Aculapo, Mexico, and yet it took place in Kanto, even though, if it were Japan, it would take several months by a Cruise ship to get from aculapo to Japan, and that's not even taking into account of the stops said Cruise Liner would have to take in order to make it. A similar kind of thing happened with "Go West, Young Meowth", where they apparantly went to Hollywood for a movie premier in some sort of van, where it would be downright impossible to actually do that, plus, even IF they took a plane (when it was never mentioned that they did.), it would still be too far away for them to visit it AND still have time to train for another month for the Pokemon League. Also, the town they briefly visited in Kanto, Neon City, was obviously based off of Las Vegas, so I think it's obvious that, what ever the Pokemon World is, it's NOT Japan, in fact, it's probably not even Earth, either.

BTW, that reminds me, why DID Hollywood look like a victim of Ground Zero in that episode (the dub never made it quite clear, and in fact, other than Spielblum [actually, he almsot reminded me of King Kai, now that I think about it], the only humsn residents in the place left is that couple that Meowth overhears Bickering when touring (overhearing is more of an overstatement, since he couldn't help but hear what they were saying as they were shouting.)?

As for your assumption as to what I meant, it's somewhat that, and it's official thanks to that interview with Hidaka. I mean, why would he say that they themselves removed Brock for fears of being accused of a racial stereotype if he was based off of their nationality? Why would they go as far as to replace him with someone who DOESN'T Look japanese if the characters were Japanese anyways? I mean, I kinda viewed it as a pointless decision, since, if they feared the possibility of America's criticism of Brock bing a Japanese stereotype, they shouldn't have even given it to America.

The "looks like a duck" saying basically means that if something has a combination of similarities, then it's safe to assume that that's what it is. Alone, the individual traits mean little, but when one looks at them as a whole, that person has a much better argument for something being what he or she claims.

The idea that Satoshi-tachi aren't Japanese just because they don't look Japanese is pretty short-sighted, IMO.
Hidaka and WPM stated that the reason why Brock was removed was because of fear that the Americans would find him offensive for some reason, which, if that was the case, why did they even BOTHER allowing it to air in America?

Besides...have you seen the clothes that our heroes wear? That short sleeved hoodie Satoshi wore throughout Advanced Generation just SCREAMS Japan to me.
That... didn't exactly look Japanese. I mean, some kids seem to wear that kind of outfit outside of Japan, anyways.

Again...it's a combination of characteristics. Celebrating Japanese holidays by itself doesn't mean much, but celebrating Japanese holidays and eating a very Japanese diet and having Japanese names and following Japanese customs does.
Err...
I'm a roman catholic, I am trying out italian food (and had Pizza on occasion), I try to observe feast days (which are the same thing as holidays, anyways), yet, despite fitting 3/4ths of the duck test, I'm not italian.
So, I don't exactly get it.

Also, the Pokemon version of the Summer festival was the exact opposite in meaning since, as you yourself stated in your comparison of "The Ghost of Maiden's Peak" that the real Summer Festival actually takes place at the beginning of the Summer season, not at the end of it as the episode implies.

Meanwhile...how many people in America know about (much less celebrate) Girls' Day? Or summer festival?
I don't know about celebrating it, but I do know that several people know about Girls day and Summer Festival (mainly thanks to Pokemon, but if they do research, then, Pokemon or not, Anime in general or not, they'd still find out about it, anyways.)

EDIT: Due to security measures, I put one of my counterarguements in Spoiler tags, since it does deal with my personal background.
 
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