Dogasu's Backpack Discussion

[MasterTrainer]

Regarding the episode comparison,
In the bit where Kasumi's riposte gets changed from:
カスミ　「タイプのこだわりもいいけど、通常のワザも使い方次第よね」
to:
Misty: "Your Tentacruel's really strong, Marina. But it's too tired to fight off Staryu's Swift attack."

I'd say that Misty's line would make more sense simply because, right before she said this, the Tentacruel got 1 hit KO'ed by a mere ... Swift attack...

Sure it's demonstrated that 4kids might not have known what a Surf attack was, but I guess the added explanation by 4kids is valid in my opinion.

Spoiler

Yeah, I know... THIS IS BLASPHEMY!
Excellent episode comparison though!

 

[PaperSplash]

Some of 4Kids' rewrites could be considered improvements, yes, but I'm not sure how I feel about someone heavily editorializing another's writing without making the original version available, and especially without said original writer being made aware. If part of the original script doesn't translate well at all or has a blatant error or would be considered extremely offensive over here, then that's one thing, but most of the examples I've seen from 4Kids just come across as their writers having very little to no respect for the original source material... or at the very least, thinking they somehow know better.

 

[darksteel6]

Just post an article on lost media wiki. We need to find all lost media of Pokemon.

Good idea! I'll see about doing that since i'm already on there.

Also it turns out that scene was also intact on two older Australian DVD releases of the dub, this one by Beyond Entertainment that was released in 2013: https://www.fishpond.com/Movies/Pokemon-Daniel-Nicodeme/9318500053862

and this one that was released by Magna Pacific(Beyond Entertainment's old name) in 2010 as part of the "Super Wallet" series, both in single form and as part of a season set:https://www.pocketmonsters.net/dvd/view/123

So if anyone overseas happens to have either one of those DVDs and could upload the full version of that dub episode, that would be really great!

 

[darksteel6]

The Japanese voice actors said pretty much the same thing regarding Jessie and James' relationship, actually, though they do understand why some people ship them.

But yes, the American dubbers were definitely trying to insinuate James was gay without outright saying so. Even before Eric Stuart started voicing him, they had him say double entendres like "it's times like these that make me want to go straight". But a lot of it came from old stereotypes so I understand why not everyone would be a fan of that approach.

By "go straight" he meant live an honest life and leave Team Rocket, I really don't think the dub was trying to imply he was gay, I think that's a bit of stretch personally. I think that theory comes from some people on the internet back then having an overactive imagination and assuming that every guy who was vaguely non-masculine in any way was "gay"(I remember quite a few people on the Planet Namek forums claiming Freeza in DBZ was "gay").

 

[darksteel6]

Some of 4Kids' rewrites could be considered improvements, yes, but I'm not sure how I feel about someone heavily editorializing another's writing without making the original version available, and especially without said original writer being made aware. If part of the original script doesn't translate well at all or has a blatant error or would be considered extremely offensive over here, then that's one thing, but most of the examples I've seen from 4Kids just come across as their writers having very little to no respect for the original source material... or at the very least, thinking they somehow know better.

I disagree personally, I never felt like they disrespected the original source material, just changed a few things to better relate to American audiences, were some of them unnecessary? Perhaps, but I wouldn't call it blasphemous or anything like that. It's nowhere near the level of silly re-writes that the Ocean dub of DBZ had.

 

[PaperSplash]

I disagree personally, I never felt like they disrespected the original source material, just changed a few things to better relate to American audiences, were some of them unnecessary? Perhaps, but I wouldn't call it blasphemous or anything like that. It's nowhere near the level of silly re-writes that the Ocean dub of DBZ had.

Fair, perhaps I exaggerated a bit in that regard. Maybe "unprofessional" would be a better word choice. And I wasn't referring to little things that got changed due to legitimate linguistic or cultural differences, but entire conversations that got changed for seemingly no other reason than the dub writers simply feeling like it. It's true that it's not even close to DBZ levels of rewritten, and is pretty faithful by 4Kids standards, but I still find it rather questionable that any dub or localization is allowed to have those kinds of unnecessary changes.

 

[darksteel6]

Fair, perhaps I exaggerated a bit in that regard. Maybe "unprofessional" would be a better word choice. And I wasn't referring to little things that got changed due to legitimate linguistic or cultural differences, but entire conversations that got changed for seemingly no other reason than the dub writers simply feeling like it. It's true that it's not even close to DBZ levels of rewritten, and is pretty faithful by 4Kids standards, but I still find it rather questionable that any dub or localization is allowed to have those kinds of unnecessary changes.

I don't generally mind the changes too much if they aren't too distracting, I liked 4Kids style of humor quite a bit(it especially works well in their dub of Kirby, as many consider the original dub to be rather bland and forgettable by comparison).

Still that doesn't mean I'm not above making fun of them when they do screw up, like one error I just noticed when I recently rewatched Pokemon the First Movie(and I don't think the dub is nearly as bad as the site makes it out to be) and noticed that Billy Crawford(the guy who sang the Pokemon theme in the film) was mispelled in the end credits as "Bolly Crawford" I kid you not: https://i.imgur.com/dOhRfUF.png

 

[PaperSplash]

By "go straight" he meant live an honest life and leave Team Rocket, I really don't think the dub was trying to imply he was gay, I think that's a bit of stretch personally.

That's... what a double entendre is. A phrase that has two possible interpretations, one more obvious than the other. Of course from the perspective of the character himself, it was "straight" as in "straight and narrow", but that doesn't mean the line wasn't deliberately written so it could be interpreted differently out of context.

I think that theory comes from some people on the internet back then having an overactive imagination and assuming that every guy who was vaguely non-masculine in any way was "gay"(I remember quite a few people on the Planet Namek forums claiming Freeza in DBZ was "gay").

I agree; it's very ignorant to assume that any man who isn't considered sufficiently masculine is gay and vice versa. But a lot of people legitimately believed that not too long ago, as you said, though it definitely wasn't limited to the internet. That mentality was widespread enough at the time that I believe it's the main reason 4Kids added all those jokes hinting at James being gay in the first place. Hence why they could be considered to be in very poor taste.

 

[darksteel6]

That's... what a double entendre is. A phrase that has two possible interpretations, one more obvious than the other. Of course from the perspective of the character himself, it was "straight" as in "straight and narrow", but that doesn't mean the line wasn't deliberately written so it could be interpreted differently out of context.

I agree; it's very ignorant to assume that any man who isn't considered sufficiently masculine is gay and vice versa. But a lot of people legitimately believed that not too long ago, as you said, though it definitely wasn't limited to the internet. That mentality was widespread enough at the time that I believe it's the main reason 4Kids added all those jokes hinting at James being gay in the first place. Hence why they could be considered to be in very poor taste.

I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation where it's unclear what came first-did 4Kids make those jokes to piggyback off what the internet was saying or was it purely coincidental? either way i'm not comfortable assuming 4Kids was for sure intentionally making gay jokes without some actual solid evidence to back it up.

I didn't find any of those jokes in poor taste myself, at least not compared to say a lot of the humor in South Park.

 

[ii kanji]

I think it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation where it's unclear what came first-did 4Kids make those jokes to piggyback off what the internet was saying or was it purely coincidental? either way i'm not comfortable assuming 4Kids was for sure intentionally making gay jokes without some actual solid evidence to back it up.

Firstly, the ‘go straight’ line came from OS episode 7. I find it a little hard to believe that the internet was taking about James being gay when that line was written (presumably before the show had even started airing overseas and people abroad did not have easy access to the original Japanese show) or that staff would have been reading this even if they were, back in the late 90s when the internet was a little different from now…

Secondly, there are numerous examples, some of which have just been discussed, in which 4Kids made very obvious jokes implying James is gay when there was no such corresponding line in the original. What further evidence do you need that they were responsible? Who else would be responsible for that? I don’t quite get your argument here.

 

[PaperSplash]

Firstly, the ‘go straight’ line came from OS episode 7. I find it a little hard to believe that the internet was taking about James being gay when that line was written (presumably before the show had even started airing overseas and people abroad did not have easy access to the original Japanese show) or that staff would have been reading this even if they were, back in the late 90s when the internet was a little different from now…

Secondly, there are numerous examples, some of which have just been discussed, in which 4Kids made very obvious jokes implying James is gay when there was no such corresponding line in the original. What further evidence do you need that they were responsible? Who else would be responsible for that? I don’t quite get your argument here.

Also, the "effeminate = gay" stereotype predates the internet by decades at the very least.

 

[darksteel6]

Firstly, the ‘go straight’ line came from OS episode 7. I find it a little hard to believe that the internet was taking about James being gay when that line was written (presumably before the show had even started airing overseas and people abroad did not have easy access to the original Japanese show) or that staff would have been reading this even if they were, back in the late 90s when the internet was a little different from now…

Secondly, there are numerous examples, some of which have just been discussed, in which 4Kids made very obvious jokes implying James is gay when there was no such corresponding line in the original. What further evidence do you need that they were responsible? Who else would be responsible for that? I don’t quite get your argument here.

I dunno maybe someone from 4Kids actually confirming this?

Also "go straight" is also a term for a former criminal turning themself around and living an honest life:https://www.dictionary.com/browse/go--straight So you can't prove for an absolute stone cold fact that that was a gay joke they were making, that's just an assumption on your part.

I just think sometimes people like to hate on 4Kids so much that they like to invent conspiracy theories about them out of whole cloth, until I actually hear someone from 4Kids say "yeah we totally made gay jokes about James on purpose", i'm not just going to assume the worst about them because a few people on the internet say so.

Personally my definition of proof isn't "some people on the internet said so", i'm sorry but that's just not good enough for me.

 

[Konja7]

Also, the "effeminate = gay" stereotype predates the internet by decades at the very least.

James dressed and disguised as a woman many times in early OS.

"A man dressing as a woman must be gay" is the stereotype that likely made people think James was gay.

 

[snowmint]

Didn't dogasu pull out an interview from the Japanese side saying 4kids was not happy about the cross dressing?

 

[darksteel6]

James dressed and disguised as a woman many times in early OS.

"A man dressing as a woman must be gay" is the stereotype that likely made people think James was gay.

Probably.

Didn't dogasu pull out an interview from the Japanese side saying 4kids was not happy about the cross dressing?

I don't recall that ever being mentioned on the site but that could potentially be true, if that was the case, it was probably out of concern that the FCC might consider that sort-of-thing "inappropriate" for kids(after all that is why "Beauty and the Beach" only aired like twice in the U.S. and never got an official home release)they were notoriously strict when it came to Saturday morning cartoons, hell they were the reason that 4Kids dub of One Piece had to be so heavily edited.

BTW speaking of One Piece, 4Kids never actually wanted to dub that show in the first place, Toei forced them to do it as they refused to license out two of their other anime that 4Kids wanted to dub(Ultimate Muscle and Magical DoReMei)unless they also agreed to do One Piece. The reason Toei did that is because they desperately wanted One Piece to have the same success in America as DBZ did(though funnily enough the at the time shaky reputation of Funimation's in-house dub of DBZ led to them actually turning down Funimation to do the dub of One Piece back in 2003) and they figured it would get even bigger ratings from airing on public TV, so they were willing to do whatever it took for the show to get aired on network TV, approving every single edit 4Kids made to the show(they even were even the ones that asked 4Kids to do an original theme song despite them already having recorded an English version of 'We Are!" which had been shown off at conventions)and not caring about how badly butchered the show wound up in the process.

I know it's common to frame English dubbing companies as evil westerners ruining foreign media, but in reality it's often more complicated then that, Toei has repeatedly shown a complete lack of respect to their own properties(throwing out master tapes of the higher-quality broadcast audio from Dragon Ball and DBZ leading fans to have to rely on home video recordings to preserve it, leaving the original prints for Sailor Moon in poor condition hence the poor quality of ADV's sub-only releases, etc)seemingly only caring about money and nothing else.

 

[snowmint]

Michael Haigney said in an interview that 4kids before doing work on the show was thinking about combining episodes together. Crazy 4kids.

 

[darksteel6]

Michael Haigney said in an interview that 4kids before doing work on the show was thinking about combining episodes together. Crazy 4kids.

Yeah I can see that as 4Kids actually did do that with a few episodes of the 1st season of Yu-Gi-Oh- Yugi's duel with Weevil and his duel with Panik were both combined into one episode for the tv airings, but in home video and streaming releases they are both split up into two episodes.

 

[PaperSplash]

Michael Haigney said in an interview that 4kids before doing work on the show was thinking about combining episodes together. Crazy 4kids.

What interview are you referring to, by any chance?

 

[snowmint]

On YouTube if you search kirbopher Michael Haigney. There is an interview between the 10-15 minute mark.

 

[Yash]

BTW speaking of One Piece, 4Kids never actually wanted to dub that show in the first place, Toei forced them to do it as they refused to license out two of their other anime that 4Kids wanted to dub(Ultimate Muscle and Magical DoReMei)unless they also agreed to do One Piece. The reason Toei did that is because they desperately wanted One Piece to have the same success in America as DBZ did(though funnily enough the at the time shaky reputation of Funimation's in-house dub of DBZ led to them actually turning down Funimation to do the dub of One Piece back in 2003) and they figured it would get even bigger ratings from airing on public TV, so they were willing to do whatever it took for the show to get aired on network TV, approving every single edit 4Kids made to the show(they even were even the ones that asked 4Kids to do an original theme song despite them already having recorded an English version of 'We Are!" which had been shown off at conventions)and not caring about how badly butchered the show wound up in the process.

Just going to point out that I've read this explanation before, it came a community rep who didn't even work at 4Kids during the entire time in which they had One Piece, and it's always read as complete passing-the-buck BS to me. One Piece was one of Japan's hottest series (and it still is!), a ton of companies were gunning for it to the point where Funi's reps dug up three separate pilot dubs (one was produced by Funimation, two by completely separate studios), the idea that Toei had to offload it on 4Kids as part of a package deal is absurd.

The timeline doesn't even make sense, 4Kids announced they'd licensed Kinnikuman as early as January 2002, and in 2003 Funimation confirmed they were still actively negotiating for the rights to One Piece. 4Kids also confirmed they were in active negotiation for the rights to Doremi in October 2003, and only announced they'd licensed the show in November 2004. It makes zero sense to assume the three shows were bundled together as part of a package, otherwise 4Kids could have just announced they had all three in 2002, especially since they were going on a licensing spree trying to fill out their Fox Box lineup at the time and OP would have been a much bigger headliner than anything else they had at the time (compared to what, Fighting Foodons?).

I've also never heard the explanation that Toei was put off of Funimation because of their poor DBZ dub, but why would they be? Funimation's DBZ dub was massively successful, and Toei was clearly not concerned about their properties being heavily localized in America (Digimon and Sailor Moon say hi, and also, why would you be upset about how DBZ was handled and then pass off your next biggest series to 4Kids and demand the same overzealous treatment?), they were in it for the money. They saw 4Kids as the company that made Pokemon and Yugioh big in America, and went with them, simple as that. 4Kids might also have been able to offer a better deal than Funimation could.

Not to be uptight about this, I ran One Piece Uncensored back in the day (which I quickly gave up on about 40 episodes in after 4Kids started going slice-and-dice-heavy on the episodes, Dogasu even wrote up a comparison for me once which I never got around to posting, apologies for that) and followed the licensing drama closely. It just always struck me as insanely convenient that right around the time 4Kids was starting to get more involved with the online fandom and rehabilitating their image (this was around the time they started putting up subbed episodes of Yugioh and Sonic X, the only series they had by that point that still had active followings) they had a handy explanation for why they weren't really the bad guys for how they handled One Piece, it was all Toei's fault. And the thing is, One Piece was always a terrible match for their editing/localization policies, but I'm going to blame that on the executives first and foremost who thought they could handle it, these were the same suits who were gunning for InuYasha, Bleach and Naruto at various points, they clearly never stopped to think if they could, they just wanted to cash in on the anime fad as quickly as they could.

Edit: Update after doing more digging. 4Kids actually licensed Kinnikuman in January 2001, or at least announced it. Apparently this was for the original series however ("Ultimate Muscle" is a dub of the second series, Kinnikuman Nisei, which 4Kids seemed to have licensed later). Still doesn't explain the timeline discrepancies and the "OP was bundled with Kinnikuman/Doremi licenses" explanation doesn't pass the smell test for me.