DP Ash vs XY Ash

[HiroHunter]

Who do you guys think is the better trainer?

 

[Cookies and Creme]

XY Ash by far. His strength is shown a lot better in this arc than in any other arc, mainly thanks to 1. a really solid Kalos team and 2. Ash-Greninja. Ash did have great battles in the form of Paul and (ignoring his legendaries) Tobias, but Ash had a much better battle against Sawyer and Alain.

Ash finally beating Paul was a great 3-episode battle, however it didn't change Paul's opinion on Ash, as in the Japanese dub, he already let go of the hate that he had on Ash back in a previous battle and already respected him more. Ash vs Sawyer, however, may seem like it didn't have too much effect, unless you remember that it's kinda like a battle between student and master, a less experienced trainer vs a really experienced trainer. Sawyer losing made him realize he still had room for improvement, unlike Paul, who just walks away with even more respect towards Ash (nothing much really).

Ash had no cheap losses (like Tobias) in Kalos, since he and Alain both had strong Pokemon and an incredibly strong "ace" (Alain has Mega Charizard X and Ash has Ash-Greninja), not to mention this is the first time Ash made it to the finals and, in the process, defeating Sawyer's Mega Sceptile which had a type advantage over Greninja. For Tobias, he brought in a team of pretty OP legendaries, which obviously Ash couldn't handle that well (ignoring his Battle Frontier Battles), making his loss seem really cheap, especially since Tobias's character has not been explained or look into in depth. Alain has a goal in winning the league, which is to prove that he is a strong trainer to Lysandre (and, in the process, also unknowingly complying with Lysandre's ultimate plan). Even though Ash lost it's still justified as we know Alain has trained to be a really strong trainer, and actually deserves to win, unlike Tobias.

And that's not to say how Ash was the entire arc. In DP, he still traveled with Brock, who in a way was still his mentor. In XY, however, he was looked up to by everyone, which helped him become stronger and have more prestige. His relationship with Greninja is scrutinized, too, and how Battle Bond finally activated correctly shows that Ash and Greninja were truly strong together. Don't forget the boss battles, too. I felt like placing the villains arc after the league was a bright choice, as now Ash can show that, yes he may not have won, but he still is an insanely strong trainer. XYZ showed that he almost reached his goal to be a Pokemon Master (sadly, it seems like SM dropped that ideaology)
I feel like other factors that made him better than DP was the artstyle and that it was such a huge jumpback, but imo XY Ash is better than DP Ash

 

[Fan of Jarrus]

He got more competent in XY. Same in DP.

 

[marshiyanmisuta]

Who do you guys think is the better trainer?

Logically it should be XY Ash. You wouldn't normally regress as you experience more (he was literally fooling around in Unova), and he actually progressed to the finals first time ever.

 

[technickal]

As a trainer, XY Ash.
As a character, DP Ash.

 

[Rajas20]

XY Ash by far. His strength is shown a lot better in this arc than in any other arc, mainly thanks to 1. a really solid Kalos team and 2. Ash-Greninja. Ash did have great battles in the form of Paul and (ignoring his legendaries) Tobias, but Ash had a much better battle against Sawyer and Alain.

Ash finally beating Paul was a great 3-episode battle, however it didn't change Paul's opinion on Ash, as in the Japanese dub, he already let go of the hate that he had on Ash back in a previous battle and already respected him more. Ash vs Sawyer, however, may seem like it didn't have too much effect, unless you remember that it's kinda like a battle between student and master, a less experienced trainer vs a really experienced trainer. Sawyer losing made him realize he still had room for improvement, unlike Paul, who just walks away with even more respect towards Ash (nothing much really).

Ash had no cheap losses (like Tobias) in Kalos, since he and Alain both had strong Pokemon and an incredibly strong "ace" (Alain has Mega Charizard X and Ash has Ash-Greninja), not to mention this is the first time Ash made it to the finals and, in the process, defeating Sawyer's Mega Sceptile which had a type advantage over Greninja. For Tobias, he brought in a team of pretty OP legendaries, which obviously Ash couldn't handle that well (ignoring his Battle Frontier Battles), making his loss seem really cheap, especially since Tobias's character has not been explained or look into in depth. Alain has a goal in winning the league, which is to prove that he is a strong trainer to Lysandre (and, in the process, also unknowingly complying with Lysandre's ultimate plan). Even though Ash lost it's still justified as we know Alain has trained to be a really strong trainer, and actually deserves to win, unlike Tobias.

And that's not to say how Ash was the entire arc. In DP, he still traveled with Brock, who in a way was still his mentor. In XY, however, he was looked up to by everyone, which helped him become stronger and have more prestige. His relationship with Greninja is scrutinized, too, and how Battle Bond finally activated correctly shows that Ash and Greninja were truly strong together. Don't forget the boss battles, too. I felt like placing the villains arc after the league was a bright choice, as now Ash can show that, yes he may not have won, but he still is an insanely strong trainer. XYZ showed that he almost reached his goal to be a Pokemon Master (sadly, it seems like SM dropped that ideaology)
I feel like other factors that made him better than DP was the artstyle and that it was such a huge jumpback, but imo XY Ash is better than DP Ash

I was going to type out a long post and then saw you pretty much encapsulated some of my main point so I said why bother. Ash imo is the real Kalos champion as Alain's Charizard was only on that level from collecting so much mega evolution energy. In a way it's still a bs way for Ash to lose but it's better than getting embarrassed by Tobias or even more so by Cameron.

 

[IncineROAR]

As a trainer, XY Ash.

Overall, I like DP Ash better. He had a more interesting Pokemon team, and better character development. And Brock is funnier than Bonnie.

 

[Cresselia92]

If we are talking in terms of overall strength, I think that XY Ash is definitely the winner. He got a strong team mainly mostly of speedy attackers, which fit his battling style like a glove and allowed him to have the advantage in battle most of the times.

However, I feel like DP Ash was the best strategic Trainer, as he managed to create unique and effective techniques, like the rotating dodge and the famous Counter Shield. Also, his Sinnoh team was very well balanced, and should potentially be able to cover all their weaknesses.

If DP Ash and XY Ash were to fight, I think XY Ash would be the winner, but after a very close match.

 

[hhhhdmt]

Its close

I like them both for different reasons.

DP Ash was in great form before going to Sinnoh. He had done remarkably well in the Hoenn League with a new team and was brilliant in the Battle Frontier. He carried that momentum into Sinnoh and took it to an even higher level.

XY Ash was coming of his worst performance in Unova (outside of when he was a rookie in Kanto). XY Ash was about regaining his confidence and reaching the same level he had in Hoenn-Battle Frontier-Sinnoh. And i think he did a great job.

I will still take Sinnoh Ash because a) I liked the battles a bit more in Sinnoh especially vs Paul and b) Ash's Sinnoh team is just a bit more balanced and better in my opinion.

Infernape and Greninja are probably equals, so are Torterra and Goodra. That leaves Gliscor, Staraptor, Buizel and Gible vs Noivern, Hawlucha and Talonflame. I think the Sinnoh pokemon are just a little better.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Alain's Charizard was only on that level from collecting so much mega evolution energy.

It wasn’t 'illegal' or anything. Alain's Charizard trained more and won fair and square. You need to defeat strong Megas to get the energy.

 

[Gengarzilla]

XY Ash was an outright stronger battler, yes, but DP Ash was the consistently smarter battler, and I would always pick brain over brawn in a fight. It felt like Ash's usual "thinking outside the box" shtick that I love most about him just vanished when he started spamming Greninja's Bond Phenomenon. It's a large factor as to why XY ultimately lost my favour against DP when it finally came time to pick between the two series. Let's do a comparison:

DP: When Fantina stomped him, he agonised over it for several episodes and then came up with Counter Shield as a direct answer to her Drifblim's Hypnosis. This was pure Ash and perhaps one of my favourite Sinnoh Gym battles.

XY: When Wulfric stomped him, we got yet another Ash-Greninja bumrush which didn't directly answer his earlier problems with Avalugg's Ice Body regeneration. Compared to the above, I personally considered this a big letdown.

 

[HiroHunter]

XY Ash was an outright stronger battler, yes, but DP Ash was the consistently smarter battler, and I would always pick brain over brawn in a fight. It felt like Ash's usual "thinking outside the box" shtick that I love most about him just vanished when he started spamming Greninja's Bond Phenomenon. It's a large factor as to why XY ultimately lost my favour against DP when it finally came time to pick between the two series. Let's do a comparison:

DP: When Fantina stomped him, he agonised over it for several episodes and then came up with Counter Shield as a direct answer to her Drifblim's Hypnosis. This was pure Ash and perhaps one of my favourite Sinnoh Gym battles.

XY: When Wulfric stomped him, we got yet another Ash-Greninja bumrush which didn't directly answer his earlier problems with Avalugg's Ice Body regeneration. Compared to the above, I personally considered this a big letdown.

So because of Ash-Greninja your not going to look at all the "thinking outside the box" things that XY Ash did before that?

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

So because of Ash-Greninja your not going to look at all the "thinking outside the box" things that XY Ash did before that?

Not the person you quoted, but the only iconic and new tactic I saw Ash coming up in XY was using wood to deal with Aegislash's stance change (which also seemed unrealistic to a degree since the wood was floating around for an eternity).
I'd appreciate if more examples of Ash's outside the box thinking are provided from this series. Nothing imo in XY(Z) exceeds Counter Shield.

@Gengarzilla perfectly summed up why I 'like' DP Ash better than XY Ash, But I'm holding off on my vote in the poll for the time being.

 

[Gengarzilla]

I'd appreciate if more examples of Ash's outside the box thinking are provided from this series. Nothing imo in XY(Z) exceeds Counter Shield..

There was the Rock Tomb Climb from Froakie which spontaneously evolved into Draco Meteor Climb with Pikachu's Iron Tail, both against Grant's Pokémon, then that led to using Iron Tail to stop Aura Sphere and launch Pikachu high when he fought Korrina's Mega Lucario (a trick I'd like to think would have saved him against Cameron).

Not quite Counter Shield but very similar in how it started specifically as a method to beat one move before growing beyond that, though he never used it again afterwards.

So because of Ash-Greninja your not going to look at all the "thinking outside the box" things that XY Ash did before that?

My point is that Ash's style seemed to mysteriously devolve into something resembling button mashing in a beat 'em up game whenever he started using the fully evolved Greninja. It's not like he couldn't play clever or unorthodox with this Pokémon in its earlier forms either, look at Froakie's Rock Tomb Climb technique against Grant and how Frogadier used those Frubbles as a mask to no-sell Poison Powder against Ramos.

Supermassive Water Shurikens are a step down in this "outside the box" department for Ash's usual standards, really. It's not enough to ramp up the visuals to make a battle look epic and super glorious, I want to be left wondering how in the world our battle savant protagonist came up with his latest crazy idea, and that's where XY Ash eventually flopped for me. They went and chose style over substance.

 

[Likeitornot.]

DP Ash, by a country mile. It could be argued that yes, while XY Ash might have had the better output in terms of team strength and league ranking, I definitely feel DP Ash had the better input as a trainer and I feel the input should define what constitutes as a good trainer more, since some of the testaments to XY Ash as a trainer in the series just feel forced to me.

Firstly, I don't really believe the league is actually a good place for comparison. Since so many of the matches were so rushed and fast-paced in the Kalos League, it doesn't really give an idea of how the competitors in the league actually compare to one another, so it's hard to argue which had the more stiff competition. However, while I didn't mind Ash VS Alain, or Ash VS Sawyer, I feel they're simply not on the same level of strategy and flexibility that was demonstrated by Ash in his matches against Nando, Conway, Paul and Tobias. I found the matches in the Sinnoh League very impressive to watch, to convey how Ash would adapt his own style of battling - but channel it in a particular way to his opponent's detriment, which I don't feel many matches in XY showed this versatility as much.

Secondly, it's interesting to compare Alain and Tobias. While Ash versus Tobias was just a sloppy way to wrap up the league in time, if we examined it in-universe, as people do tend to say: it would be arguable that it showed off how strong Ash was a trainer. I don't feel simply ranking fourth versus ranking second shows your strength; you need to take it in context of the league, the competitors, and the matches. (I don't believe Ash should have even gotten to second place in the Kalos League, but that's for another day)

Thirdly, Ash-Greninja - yes, that obstruction that took up way too much screentime and focus on his other Pokemon who really could have used it. Maybe it's a matter of perspective, but Ash-Greninja is actually one of my largest gripes with Ash as a trainer in XY. (It's not to say that Ash had a whole balance on his team in DP; but rather that I didn't feel it was as poor as it was for a while in XY)

It can be argued that yes, XY definitely tried to portray Ash as a competent trainer, someone determined in his battles and they achieved that but I just do not agree that he was on par with himself as a trainer when DP was airing.

 

[Karamazov]

DP Ash, by a country mile. It could be argued that yes, while XY Ash might have had the better output in terms of team strength and league ranking, I definitely feel DP Ash had the better input as a trainer and I feel the input should define what constitutes as a good trainer more, since some of the testaments to XY Ash as a trainer in the series just feel forced to me.

This. DP put a lot of effort into Ash training his Pokemon and watching them grow. We saw him use their strengths creatively, and he even came up with unique moves and strategies to help him. Counter-Shield was such a big deal that Dawn and Paul decided to copy it.

And my problem with the XY team, as you said is that Greninja overshadowed them. Because of it, I feel like his other Pokemon (outside of Pikachu and Hawlucha) rarely got to shine or show off their skills. And when they do show off their skills, it doesn't feel as earned as it did in XY, because we don't see much of their struggles.

 

[Cookies and Creme]

I guess I need to defend my side a bit, cuz no one else is
Ash's character development was much stronger in XY, as shown after his loss to Wulfric. He was a bit too confident (I think) in winning because of Greninja's transformation, but not only did it not happen, he got destroyed. He got depressed and literally ran away, kinda like a kid. Nothing could comfort him, until Serena comes and pretty much snapped him back to reality. Serena looks up to Ash because of his "never give up" attitude, and that was what was missing after winning all those battles with Greninja. Obviously, his time alone and w/Greninja in that episode was a good bonding experience and helped perfect Ash-Greninja. So Ash's development here is crucial, or Ash-Greninja would never happen. I feel like this makes up for the missing strategies and training that DP had, since it's literally Ash and Greninja becoming one, at least through this experience. The reason he was able to almost win the league was because of this Greninja bond, however his other Pokemon also were pretty strong (except Noivern, like really he has a horrible win/lose ratio), like Goodra having a 100% win rate at one point and (I have to repeat) making it to the finals against Alain. He definitely did some training and, while probably not as obvious and strategy-based as DP, definitely does not deserve to be overlooked.
So yeah, I see your point in DP, however what I have said here and before is the reason why I think XY is better
Also, your complaint on his other Pokemon not getting enough screen time? There was a whole saga-ish for Goodra, Noivern's (albeit slightly horrible) development was present, etc. I feel like there is enough screen time, plus Ash-Greninja is what's really getting promoted.

 

[HiroHunter]

This. DP put a lot of effort into Ash training his Pokemon and watching them grow. We saw him use their strengths creatively, and he even came up with unique moves and strategies to help him. Counter-Shield was such a big deal that Dawn and Paul decided to copy it.

And my problem with the XY team, as you said is that Greninja overshadowed them. Because of it, I feel like his other Pokemon (outside of Pikachu and Hawlucha) rarely got to shine or show off their skills. And when they do show off their skills, it doesn't feel as earned as it did in XY, because we don't see much of their struggles.

Like how Infernape overshadowed the DP team?

 

[Karamazov]

Like how Infernape overshadowed the DP team?

It definitely overshadowed the rest of the team, but it didn't take that much development away from the others. Gligar got an arc where Ash helped to bring out its potential. Ash traded away Ambipom to let it follow its own path, and trained Buizel. He defended Gible, trained it, and helped it learn Draco Meteor. Even though Torterra became a jobber, it still had a ton of focus with Ash.

DP utilized its time better, and the attention Ash gave to his Pokemon makes him look much better than his XY counterpart, I think. He helped his XY team, but not nearly to the extent of DP. Granted, DP had an extra year to work with, but XY still squandered a lot of the time they did have.

 

[Gengarzilla]

Like how Infernape overshadowed the DP team?

Taking into account how much of an involved, critical, and important character Infernape was to Ash's intense rivalry with Paul, I'd say it's entirely justified in this case. This was much bigger than anything Greninja got with Sawyer's Sceptile, Infernape wanted to prove Paul, the actual trainer, wrong, not just his Electivire. You can't compare them because Infernape actually had an excuse; this was as much its feud with Paul as it was Ash's. Infernape's unique role in DP meant it needed to get more attention.

On that note, you can't just defend Greninja's inhalation of focus and screentime purely on the basis of "someone else did it before so it's fine" either. That's a pretty weak and flimsy argument if I ever saw one.