dukeburger's unique challenge!

[dukeburger]

EDIT: Okay, this is the team based on my "simple question" posted in the Simple Questions thread; DCM said I should make it its own thread though, as it is rather long.

This is the challenge as I originally posted it:

For some stupid reason, I was challenged to a battle from a friend of a friend. The reason it's stupid is he was talking mad smack to me over the phone about it, AND his rules are no legendaries/ubers, no items. Yeah... wut. It already annoys me when people don't know the distinction between legendary and uber, but apparently I'm a "homo" for using items (his words, not mine). Clearly, he knows nothing...

But I'm thinking... what the hell kind of a team can I/should I make? He totally can't win, otherwise he's going to think he's right about items. I mean... no choice items, no focus sash, no berries... just ugh. I'm thinking a mostly bulky stally-wally team might be the way to go on this. Suggestions? I only have like, 2 weeks to prepare for this too. :/

I may just post this as a blog, but I figured it'd be better to ask here.

Edit: Oh yeah, I know he sounds like a total noob, but he does know what EVs/IVs are, somehow.

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Wow, thank you everyone for all the responses! Yes, I still appreciate the ones where you list sets with items even.

But yeah, the rules this guy wants to play by are extremely dumb, and I have no idea why he wishes to play this way. To answer what somebody brought up, I HOPE he is adhering to the standard clauses at least, and I will bring that up. I really don't want to go "hehehe" and resort to Spore/Double Team tactics, because I'd be mad if he did that to me, and I'm already agreeing to his stupid no legendaries/no items rules; I am seriously going to draw the line if he doesn't plan on playing by sleep/evasion clause.

Huh odd rules, you still going to be held to all the usual clauses and rules? well in my lowly opinion (i'm not very good at all this) it depends what you can get hold of in that time. Although if not hail I do think some weather control would be good. Sandstorm always a good but probably predictable option Tyranitar, Hippowdon, roosting Gliscor and Skarmory and swampert or another water/ground maybe gastrodon with recover and cradily as a special wall? oh or throw in some stuff like lucario or scizor...yeah I've not really got a proper team in mind and it's abit bland. I'm gonna be quiet now.

Actually, I have thought about sandstorm. In fact, it's a toss up between that and a more typical team. The only thing with sandstorm I'm worried about is having too many fighting weaknesses and reliable sweepers without items. I would love to use my sandstorm team special Lucario, for instance, but he was made for a choice scarf, and I'd be really worried about what he could pull off without that or without a focus sash. Cradily is also a nice choice, which I've considered, but I'm worried that he can be too easily taken out without lefties. Maybe I could use a Mean Look Umbreon and Baton Pass to him (another fighting weakness though). Ugh, this is so hard! Scizor is a really good choice though. I have a sort of bulky one who should be able to take a neutral beating and set up at least one Swords Dance and then Bullet Punch.

Spoiler

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he said no items.
I would raep people with ambipom, yanmega and Garchomp if i were you.
i would give sets, but they take to long to type on an Ipod.
basically, use technician ambipom, speed boost yanmega, and the chomp of your choice.

Somehow, this guy knows that Garchomp counts as uber, otherwise I'd definitely be using Chompy. He also thought Metagross was uber, and I was like um, NO, so apparently he's going to use that to rape me with (which is why I'm reconsidering a hail team, since I KNOW he'll be using Meta). I don't have experience with Yanmega actually, though I'm worried that he's too risky without focus sash. What do you think? I will consider technician Ambipom, as I think I have a decent Aipom lying around.

Still, for whatever reason, the things I think of all give me a big fighting weakness (so I'm not sure if throwing Ambipom into the mix would help). Here's a vague outline of some stuff I've been considering:

Starmie
Timid/Modest
... obvious 252/252 EV spread

- Surf
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam

I have both a Timid and Modest already trained, but I think Timid is the way to go, as it has a high base speed (and mine does have the 31 IV), and Starmie doesn't like taking many hits. I do worry that without an item, it won't hit hard enough, but I think I'd still rather sacrifice a little extra hitting power for the speed (since Modest without an item will still suck and a 2HKO is gonna be a 2HKO most of the time with either nature).

The reason I'm thinking of leading with this is that, as you will see, I have some fighting weaknesses which I want to try to cover; that and Starmie has always been my favorite lead in the Battle Tower/Frontier because it hits fast and fairly hard and gets good coverage (and since this isn't a real competitive battle...). I'm afraid of going with a sashless suicide lead, because I don't feel comfortable sacrificing a Poke right off the bat with these rules.

Starmie usually doesn't survive if it has to stay in against a Grass/Dark/Ghost/Electric type, though it can usually take a non-STAB hit. If I have to switch, then I will switch to one of the following:

Swampert
Impish
Not sure about EVs yet

- Stealth Rock
- Roar
- Waterfall
- Earthquake

Obvious counter against an electric (I kind of doubt he'll have HP grass on anything...), and I really don't mind switching it in anyway, as it will give me a chance to set up Stealth Rock. I don't know how my opponent is going to play, but I can see that coming in handy. I have the Mudkip that was destined to become this in order to replace my CB Swampert on my rain dance team for added support, but I think it could work here too. Very open to suggestions on this set and the EV spread. I want it to be primarily bulky, but opinions are welcome.

Scizor
Adamant
Technician (of course)
EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk (I retrained this a couple times, so I THINK those are the current EVs, if not, there may be a few (very few) invested in speed which would otherwise be in HP).

- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- X-Scissor
- Super Power/Brick Break

Obvious switch in for everything else Starmie doesn't like, Grass/Dark/Ghost. This is my Scizor from messing around in the Battle Frontier. It currently has Super Power, but if you think I should switch to Brick Break, I will. Not much to say here really. This Scizor primarily relies on getting a Swords Dance in and then Bullet Punches its way through everything. The investment in HP allows it to take some hits either on the switch or to set up a Swords Dance, as it won't need speed for Bullet Punch. I actually haven't changed Roost to X-Scissor yet, but I think that's the wise idea. Once again, opinions on that are welcome.

Now here is where I am unsure of things...

Umbreon
Careful
EVs: 252 SpD, the rest all over the place (mostly in Speed), willing to change

- Mean Look
- Baton Pass
- Moonlight
- Yawn

Yes, Moonlight is pretty idiotic instead of Wish, but this is my (unfinished) shiny Umbreon caught in the wild wild Trophy Garden. I am willing to rebreed if absolutely necessary, I'm just sort of reluctant to put extra work into this stupid team that's only going to be used once. I will if I have to, but I am trying to keep it at a minimum. If I keep this one though, it might be a good idea to just do away with Moonlight altogether; not sure. Anyway, the idea here is obvious. As I am doubting that my opponent is a good player, I feel that I will have a good chance of using Mean Look/Baton Pass on something that I either want dead immediately, or something that I can set up on. Opinions really needed.

Blissey
Bold
EVs: 252 Def for sure, and I think the rest is in SpD, but I will check

- Seismic Toss
- Softboiled
- Aromatherapy
- Shadow Ball

Lol, typical annoying bitch... granted I know I've got 2 special walls who are weak to fighting (though Umbreon's job isn't really to wall in this case, but yeah). I think the most likely threats my opponent would have are Infernape and Lucario, which should be taken care of by Starmie and Swampert respectively. Anyway, I also really doubt my opponent is smart enough for 101 substitutes, so this is really just a lol in his face, assuming I am not missing any possible problems. I am willing to fiddle with the moveset otherwise though (I have no access to WishBliss, much less with Seismic Toss though, so please don't suggest that). Shadow Ball should probably be replaced by Flamethrower or something; it's just there from Battle Frontier journeys.

Last slot is totally up in the air, but I'm thinking either Nasty Plot Infernape/MixApe or DD Outrage Salamence/Mixmence. Currently I don't have any of these readily available; I have lots of dragon breeding fodder with nice IVs, but not so much with Chimchar (so if I go with that, I'd be eternally grateful if someone can get me a good Chimchar, and I can help you out with a dragon if need be). Anyway, I haven't had a chance to use DD Outrage Salamence yet, and that sounds exciting, yet I think I should get another special sweeper in here. So Nasty Plot Infernape sounds good, especially if I can get it in after Umbreon hooks me up, though I am worried that it will be too fragile without an item. Sigh. So I could still resort to Mixmence (or Mixape even, since it won't have to set up), but I would like to have something other than Scizor for Umbreon to pass to that can benefit from a trapped opponent.

So, suggestions please! If this whole team sucks even, let me know, but PLEASE keep the no items thing in mind. This was the best I could come up with where I wouldn't have to worry about items too much. Also remember that sets/EVs/overall team don't have to be built around any common top threat legendaries, since this fool is banning those too. I'm also willing to incorporate Pokemon already suggested (like the Speed Boost Yanmega for instance) or new suggestions for this team.

I apologize for the length of this, and for totally hijacking the thread away from other people who have questions; let me know if this should be its own thread, but I didn't think that was appropriate.

 

[DCM]

Starmie is an excellent lead, but i believe you should add Rapid Spin to your team.
with no Recovery Items, (and although you have no big SR weakness), every little bit of damage counts. Getting rid of Rocks is essential.
I also think your team is lacking pokemon that can take a physical hit. A lot of less experienced players tend to put a lot of emphasis into physical attacks.

 

[dukeburger]

Good point about Rapid Spin. I'm concerned as to where to get it in though. I mean, I know Starmie can Rapid Spin, but should I really waste a move slot, especially on a lead? I have no idea if this guy is smart enough to realize the benefits of SR, but it would be good to be prepared.

Also really good point about physical hits, and something I had considered, but wasn't sure if I wanted a physical wall. I could replace Umbreon with Skarmory and go for the annoying Skarm/Bliss combo, which would probably work on somebody like him (even if he has an Infernape, I have Starmie and Swampert still). I'm unsure how I feel about adding another wall though, what do you think?

 

[DCM]

If it was my team, I would drop thunderbolt for rapid spin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that only hits water types from more than the other attacks. I think it would be worth it.
As for a bulky physical pokemon, forretres can fill that role and does an excellent job of laying down spikes.

 

[Tyros]

I read through a big bit of the OP, and got to the part where you were worried about your Pokemon hitting hard enough.

Just thought I'd throw in this reminder:
Remember, while you don't think your Pokemon aren't going to be hitting hard enough, his Pokemon also won't be hitting as hard as they can, without items.

Both of your strategies are significantly limited...

So, since you know one of his Pokemon, I'd suggest the fastest user of EQ you know of to deal with that.

Basically, it becomes a game of outspeeding him, and that's really all that matters. Without Choice or other item boosts, his Pokemon will probably fail to 1-Hit-KO yours. So all you need to worry about it getting more speed than him, and being able to 2-Hit-KO him. *Nods*

So... Just bring in the fastest and heaviest hitters you can, and that'll win you the game, I'm sure. Just make sure you've got type coverage.

- Tyros

 

[dukeburger]

If it was my team, I would drop thunderbolt for rapid spin. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that only hits water types from more than the other attacks. I think it would be worth it.
As for a bulky physical pokemon, forretres can fill that role and does an excellent job of laying down spikes.

I'm a little reluctant to drop Thunderbolt, as it's part of what makes Starmie a great lead; that and I really don't have anything else that on this team will get SE damage on water types. But I know water shouldn't be too threatening to my team anyway. I think I'd rather drop Ice Beam though if anything. I typically hate leaving Starmie in on grass types anyway. So I guess I'll take that route.

Forretres is good, but with Scizor, I REALLY don't want to add another steel/bug. Actually, Skarmory is probably a bad idea even. Maybe something more tankish and less wallish?

I read through a big bit of the OP, and got to the part where you were worried about your Pokemon hitting hard enough.

Just thought I'd throw in this reminder:
Remember, while you don't think your Pokemon aren't going to be hitting hard enough, his Pokemon also won't be hitting as hard as they can, without items.

Both of your strategies are significantly limited...

So, since you know one of his Pokemon, I'd suggest the fastest user of EQ you know of to deal with that.

Basically, it becomes a game of outspeeding him, and that's really all that matters. Without Choice or other item boosts, his Pokemon will probably fail to 1-Hit-KO yours. So all you need to worry about it getting more speed than him, and being able to 2-Hit-KO him. *Nods*

So... Just bring in the fastest and heaviest hitters you can, and that'll win you the game, I'm sure. Just make sure you've got type coverage.

- Tyros

You make a lot of good points. With Meta, I did think that I should probably have a faster Earthquake user. I'm fairly certain Swampert can deal with him (probably should run some calcs to see what kind of abuse he can take...) though, and if he leads with Meta, Starmie resists both his STAB Psychic/Steel... but as Starmie is rather fragile, I'll do some damage calcs on that too, as I'm sure Surf is a 2HKO at best...

Though actually, I probably will go with a physical/Mixmence Salamence anyway, so I can put Earthquake on him too.

In that case, do you think I should get in another fast special sweeper in there? Gengar perhaps? That would involve dropping the Umbreon strategy probably - which may be good to drop anyway, if I should be hitting hard and fast. I do like the potential insurance it would give me though to let things set up on him or clear the way for a late game sweep or something. Of course that can mean that I should just take Blissey out of the picture instead, but I really do lol at the thought of Seismic Toss spamming. Hrmmm.

 

[dukeburger]

What exactly is it that made you lol?

 

[DCM]

Ice Beam hits the most common "noob" pokemon 4x effective, dragons.

 

[dukeburger]

^ Another very good point. Thanks. Hmmm. I will think over this team quite a bit more!

 

[1337R34P3R]

i'd suggest umbreon, porygon2, or hitmontop for a decent wall.