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Dynamax: Thoughts, Feelings, or Concerns

It's a monster house!
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So because people don't bother to think of ways to counter something it has to be banned?
As I stated above, people repeatedly tried to figure out ways to make Dynamax balanced, including searching for counters.

Read the posts, someone linked them earlier in the thread.
 
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So because people don't bother to think of ways to counter something it has to be banned?
Or maybe because the counters it has are few and far between, not to mention very specific and, thus, very limiting? I mean, I may not be the most competitive of players when it comes to games in general, but if something is very broken or has the potential to be far too overpowered, then chances are that said thing is not healthy for the competitive scene of the game, even if it sounds cool in concept. And, based on this little paragraph that I found here, Dynamax seems to fit that bill:
The reasoning behind the Dynamax ban involves the increase in power, the impact of the secondary effects each type's move has, the defensive merit gained through doubling the HP of any Dynamax user, and the element of unpredictability that comes alongside being able to Dynamax with any Pokemon at any point of the game. As Jajoken touches on in his post here, crusty discusses in his post here, and Colonel M alludes to throughout his post here many of the max moves can be devastating and they can be fired off repeatedly while the user's bulk is increased twofold. There is no true limit to how potent Dynamax moves can be given that each type provides different benefits that can potentially be game-changing; some of the most versatile Pokemon that are already great in the current metagame are made much stronger due to this, which makes finding reliable counterplay a virtual impossibility at times, as touched on by peng in his post here. B1001 also goes into detail on the various effects and benefits of Dynamax moves beyond sheer power and versatility in his post here. The ability for some of the most threatening Pokemon in the game to fire off consecutive boosted attacks, especially without being confined to a choice lock, opens up a lot of unmanageable breaking possibilities. In addition, you also are immune to being phased out, Encored, and Disabled while bypassing Protect to do 1/4th damage like Z-moves. However, this is just the start as the secondary effects that occur through using a move of any type oftentimes lead to the the game largely being decided by this three-turn sequence, especially if the Dynamaxed Pokemon has the ability to use specific boosts to snowball into a sweep. The sweeping aspect of Dynamaxing is so problematic that Ditto has quickly risen to the near the top of the usage statistics, which is a sign of a problematic metagame state as outlined by this post by Darvin. This overwhelming prospect is also bolstered by the fact that Dynamaxed Pokemon have double the HP, allowing for many offensive Pokemon to avoid being taken out by otherwise troublesome threats as well as opening up the game to many defensive exploits of Dynamaxing.
 
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Or maybe because the counters it has are few and far between, not to mention very specific and, thus, very limiting? I mean, I may not be the most competitive of players when it comes to games in general, but if something is very broken or has the potential to be far too overpowered, then chances are that said thing is not healthy for the competitive scene of the game, even if it sounds cool in concept. And, based on this little paragraph that I found here, Dynamax seems to fit that bill:
I still feel it's just slight cowardice to figure out how to deal with them proper. These are the same people that banned Galarian Darmanitan
 
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Healing Dynamaxed Pokemon is not the problem. Why on earth would you think it was?
Imagine a Dynamax pokemon transforms and activation of Heal Block would prevent the extra hp gain from it or would cause the lose of it suddently in battle.

In reality Dynamax would need only some more moves or abilities as natural counters to it for regular pokemon. Megas were powerfull but also could get handlet pretty well,

D-max on the other hand would allow you to take down or endure Mega Ryquaza or others in many cases probably longer.(taking that a mega pokemon would not be able to Dynamax bc different energies dont cope with each other)

D-max showed how important strategies in Pokemon are, that you need to give credid about the mechanic that it shaked Smogon and the fandom much more then megas and Z-moves before.

Now new niches are revelead for expansion and buffs when it comes to PP reduction importance, blocking oponents moves or making the oponent not move a turn or two...

Paralisis, Sleep and Freeze are good but abilities and moves that could cause the oponent to not move one turn or would make the turns count as 2 in one or 3 in one would be helpfull both against Dynamax, weather and moves that take turns to work well.

Imagine a pokemon that enters or faints during battle and causes time to move faster that like 3 turns pass and activate weather, "move and abilities" counts when it comes to status conditions and other things.(this would be helpfull)

If there would be a item to Gigantamax or Dynamax outside of Galar for pokemon or outside the restricted areas then maybe even Embargo could block that? but hard to say taking how they handled Megas... Embargo should work against something taking the amount of turns. Or both Embargo and Heal block at least could reduce the turn limit of Dynamax of one turn to 2 turns or something in that way.

Dynamax also adds another layer of unpredictability. You have to worry about which pokemon the opponent is gonna use, which sets they have and so on, and now who's gonna Dynamax. With Megas you could almost instantly notice who was the mega and to a noticeable lesser extent which pokemon had a Z-move. Dynamax being universal makes this so much harder.

Then there's the fact that Dynamax can remove four moveslots syndrome from a lot of pokemon since a lot of moves also boost a stat on top of dealing high damage. Now you don't have to run Swords Dance, Dragon dance and so on, you can just Dynamax and go to town.
The same predictability what regular or hidden abilities and items could the oponent have...

1 pokemon... one for 3 turns only... mostly slow and high hp and defences gain the most from Dynamax if you think about it. Fast sweepers or pokemon that loose their moves effects need a double strategy when using it.

Dynamax is good bc secret card but Gigantamax should realy stay for those few who got it, would make that you need a item outside of Galar and need a special training and leveling up.

Outside of Galar would imagine that both trainer would need Y-ring and a item to activate it.
_______________

I think that there is not enough polls done about moves, abilities, mechanics that people like or would want to change.
 
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Fast sweepers or pokemon that loose their moves effects need a double strategy when using it.
Completely wrong here. Fast Pokémon are the best Dynamax users since they've got attacking power. Their balancing point was usually low defences but they get unseen level of bulk with Dynamax and have the potential to boost their stats to attack even more. And remove the choice item limitation too.

There’s a reason Gyarados is the most used Dynamax Pokémon.
I think that there is not enough polls done about moves, abilities, mechanics that people like or would want to change
Smogon banning Dynamax was a result of a poll. Do you only like voting and polls as long as people vote for the result you like?
 
Pokemon Gotta Catch ... Some Of Em ???
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Smogon are a little trigger happy when it comes to banning. I remember a friend joked to me once, How many Smogon players does it take to change a light bulb... none they'd just ban it." There is a certain reputation.

I don't feel like Dynamax changed the outcome of the battle at all really. It only last 3 turns, at least 2 of which any other Pokemon can just block with Max guard. So there little more than a Z move and temporary health boost (effectively a temporary defence boost as it just halves damage taken)

And eventually I got quite interested in Piers philosophy of taken down Dynamaxed Pokemon without Dynamaxing your own Pokemon.
 
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Completely wrong here. Fast Pokémon are the best Dynamax users since they've got attacking power. Their balancing point was usually low defences but they get unseen level of bulk with Dynamax and have the potential to boost their stats to attack even more. And remove the choice item limitation too.

There’s a reason Gyarados is the most used Dynamax Pokémon.

Smogon banning Dynamax was a result of a poll. Do you only like voting and polls as long as people vote for the result you like?
how much people voted?
what were the questions?
what time frame for response in that poll?
Smogon could have waited longer taking the games are what 2 or 3 months out... to judge a game properly and objetive players need half a year. Also we don't know how games will change with expansions.

Gyarados... weird, would think Wishiwashi should be it.
Slow Gyarados? electric types and electric moves? or Freeze Dry(if its in the game)?
 
It's a monster house!
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Smogon are a little trigger happy when it comes to banning.
They're so trigger happy that they spent several pages worth debating over whether or not to ban this mechanic, then had a test on it, and then had a vote. I'm pretty certain a lot more thought and consideration went into this ban than just "lol ban it." I believe most people on Smogon are actually not too keen on quick-bans, but I could be wrong.
There is a certain reputation.
From what I've seen, that reputation comes mostly from people who have very little experience with Smogon and/or competitive Pokemon in general, and just get offended by its bans. There was this PokeTuber, for example, who was staunchly anti-Smogon and yet never played in any Smogon supported format if I remember correctly.

That's not to say Smogon isn't completely innocent here, but more often than not their ban-happy reputation is greatly exaggerated from what I've seen.
I don't feel like Dynamax changed the outcome of the battle at all really.
You don't think setting up weather, gaining stat boosts, and/or lowering your opponents own stats doesn't have any affect on the battle at all? I mean, weather alone can be pretty influential.
It only last 3 turns, at least 2 of which any other Pokemon can just block with Max guard.
Three turns is still enough to set up weather and gain some stat boosts, and you are also able to break out of your choice lock in a pinch. Also, I figure most people don't run Max Guard in Singles for the same reason they don't run Protect. Once they de-Dynamax, I'd imagine those status moves wouldn't be all that useful.
 
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*sees people complaining about Smogon being trigger happy* I don't know, from what I have seen, other series are worse in those regards.

EDIT: I mean, hasn't there been card games where they have banned unreleased cards?
 
Now with Mega Evolution
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Y’all do realize that:
a) You don’t have to use Smogon at all
b) Smogon is not the end-all-be-all to the competitive Pokémon scene
c) Smogon has formats without any bans or restrictions

If you don’t like the way Smogon bans things then just...don’t use it? Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
 
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Imagine a Dynamax pokemon transforms and activation of Heal Block would prevent the extra hp gain from it or would cause the lose of it suddently in battle.
Considering Heal Block didn't prevent Z-Moves healing, I seriously doubt they'd change it for Dynamax.

Now new niches are revelead for expansion and buffs when it comes to PP reduction importance, blocking oponents moves or making the oponent not move a turn or two...
Do you honestly think anyone could manage to deplete all of a Pokemon's PP before they Dynamaxed? And, again, Protect doesn't totally block a foe's move.
Also we don't know how games will change with expansions.
The ban is not about future expansions, it's about the games now.
Imagine a pokemon that enters or faints during battle and causes time to move faster that like 3 turns pass and activate weather, "move and abilities" counts when it comes to status conditions and other things.(this would be helpfull)
This hypothetical doesn't change the way things are now.

how much people voted?
what were the questions?
what time frame for response in that poll?
Why not just look for yourself? Announcement - np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 1 - Boom Boom Pow
 
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Y’all do realize that:
a) You don’t have to use Smogon at all
b) Smogon is not the end-all-be-all to the competitive Pokémon scene
c) Smogon has formats without any bans or restrictions

If you don’t like the way Smogon bans things then just...don’t use it? Thanks for coming to my TedTalk.
Remember this spat about smogon only started when we were going back and forth if Dynamaxing is broken or not.
 
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Also, I figure most people don't run Max Guard in Singles for the same reason they don't run Protect. Once they de-Dynamax, I'd imagine those status moves wouldn't be all that useful.
Not sure which one of us is the odd one out, but personally almost all of my Pokemon have at least 1 non damage dealing move, either something statusy to help catching Pokemon, or stats based like Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Calm Mind etc
 
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Remember this spat about smogon only started when we were going back and forth if Dynamaxing is broken or not.
Well that’s subjective, but it is certainly meta-defining which is what it was likely meant to be. Regardless of what Smogon has to say about it, and regardless of if you would specifically use the word “broken” you can pretty easily tell that it is something everyone will be using and everyone will have to be able to account for.
 
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what do you think what will be the effects of Starters G-max moves?
will drum beating become a sound move with that and reduce speed 3 stages like Kinglers G-move?

Hmmm Cinderace move looks like it could be a rolling fire ball that could destroy any defense, remove terrains and entry hazards.
 
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what do you think what will be the effects of Starters G-max moves?
will drum beating become a sound move with that and reduce speed 3 stages like Kinglers G-move?

Hmmm Cinderace move looks like it could be a rolling fire ball that could destroy any defense, remove terrains and entry hazards.
Can't remember if I stated my ideas about them here already, but I believe they'll be upgrades of their signatures. Rillaboom will have a binding move that lowers speed every turn, kinda like Octolock, Cinderace will have guaranteed burn, and Inteleon ignores all effects, meaning screens, moves, abilities, weather, and stat changes.
 
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For those of you wondering why Dynamax is busted and got banned, here's the Smogon's Monotype Council's Reasoning.

Dynamax is exceedingly unpredictable. Unlike Z-Moves and Mega Evolutions in the past, Dynamax can be used by any Pokemon at any time. It is certainly the case that there are some Pokemon that are better than others at Dynamaxing, and it is fairly obvious what the game plan might be from a teambuilding perspective. However, Dynamax is extremely flexible, so during the course of a game, that game plan will shift and every turn brings with it the question of whether Dynamax will be used or not for both sides. To make matters worse, Choice item users can break out of their Choice lock at any time as well. The value of scouting Choice users is diminished greatly when that information does not guarantee that your switch-in is safe. The notable example used in our thread was Choice Scarf Excadrill vs Toxapex, which is a huge mess of 50/50s: will Excadrill stay in to Dynamax, what move would it use if it does, will the Toxapex stay in to risk Max Quake, will it Max Guard to counter the potential Dynamax, etc. The game can devolve very quickly in scenarios like this to being 50/50s every single turn. The sheer unpredictability of this mechanic severely hinders the competitiveness of the metagame.

Dynamax is more than just unpredictable, though, as it brings ridiculous power to the table. The most obvious problem in the Dynamax suite is Max Airstream, which not only has increased damage (unlike Max Knuckle and Max Ooze) but also boosts the user's Speed by one. When considering the elevated damage output, this lets many sweepers get out of hand very quickly if they're given even a turn to set up. The easiest way to see just the extent to which Max Airstream is broken is by just looking at Flying teams, which is comprised of simply dual screens + Max Airstream sweepers. While Gyarados, with its Moxie + Max Airstream providing what's basically a free DD evrey turn, is by far the most prominent of sweepers, almost anything with Flying coverage can easily take advantage of it. For example, even Barraskewda can boost to +1 Speed in order to outspeed Choice Scarf Trace Gardevoir with non-STAB two-turn Bounce thanks to Dynamax. Slower Pokemon

Dynamax would not be what it is without Max Moves providing incredibly powerful secondary effects beyond just Max Airstream. The terrain and weather Max Moves are just as powerful in the right hands. Max Flare and Max Geyser boost their own damage by setting weather, something doubly powerful in the hands of Swift Swim sweepers. A similar story can be told for Electric-, Grass-, and Psychic-types that can set their own terrain and immediately boost their own damage. Of these, Max Mindstorm is especially notable for blocking priority, which is an incredibly powerful option for sweepers like Polteageist, Barraskewda, and Hatterene. These moves show the problem extends beyond just particular Max Moves. Even the "less powerful" Max Moves in Max Knuckle and Max Ooze can be snowbally in the right hands.

Dynamax brings insane defensive utility as well that makes fast sweepers all the more dangerous. Doubling health effectively halves damage taken, which turns every sweeper into a tank that's difficult to take out. Setting up your sweeper becomes so much easier when you can rest assured that even a double into a supposed check is unlikely to stop your sweep. For example, for Dragon teams, double switching out to Duraludon on Gyarados as it Dragon Dances is almost worthless, as even a Max Lightning fails to OHKO a Dynamax-boosted Gyarados, which means it has much more leeway in trying to set up. Trace Gardevoir can give up its Choice Scarf boost temporarily in order to fire off powerful Max Mindstorms and Max Overgrowths against Water teams, as even rain-boosted Choice Band Barraskewda can't OHKO it from full. Pokemon like Barraskewda, Excadrill, and Hatterene that abuse Life Orb during Dynamax are even more durable because the recoil is halved to 5%.

For all of these reasons, the council agrees with the overall consensus from the Dynamax in Monotype thread: Dynamax is simply too good for our metagame.
 
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For those of you wondering why Dynamax is busted and got banned, here's the Smogon's Monotype Council's Reasoning.

Dynamax is exceedingly unpredictable. Unlike Z-Moves and Mega Evolutions in the past, Dynamax can be used by any Pokemon at any time. It is certainly the case that there are some Pokemon that are better than others at Dynamaxing, and it is fairly obvious what the game plan might be from a teambuilding perspective. However, Dynamax is extremely flexible, so during the course of a game, that game plan will shift and every turn brings with it the question of whether Dynamax will be used or not for both sides. To make matters worse, Choice item users can break out of their Choice lock at any time as well. The value of scouting Choice users is diminished greatly when that information does not guarantee that your switch-in is safe. The notable example used in our thread was Choice Scarf Excadrill vs Toxapex, which is a huge mess of 50/50s: will Excadrill stay in to Dynamax, what move would it use if it does, will the Toxapex stay in to risk Max Quake, will it Max Guard to counter the potential Dynamax, etc. The game can devolve very quickly in scenarios like this to being 50/50s every single turn. The sheer unpredictability of this mechanic severely hinders the competitiveness of the metagame.

Dynamax is more than just unpredictable, though, as it brings ridiculous power to the table. The most obvious problem in the Dynamax suite is Max Airstream, which not only has increased damage (unlike Max Knuckle and Max Ooze) but also boosts the user's Speed by one. When considering the elevated damage output, this lets many sweepers get out of hand very quickly if they're given even a turn to set up. The easiest way to see just the extent to which Max Airstream is broken is by just looking at Flying teams, which is comprised of simply dual screens + Max Airstream sweepers. While Gyarados, with its Moxie + Max Airstream providing what's basically a free DD evrey turn, is by far the most prominent of sweepers, almost anything with Flying coverage can easily take advantage of it. For example, even Barraskewda can boost to +1 Speed in order to outspeed Choice Scarf Trace Gardevoir with non-STAB two-turn Bounce thanks to Dynamax. Slower Pokemon

Dynamax would not be what it is without Max Moves providing incredibly powerful secondary effects beyond just Max Airstream. The terrain and weather Max Moves are just as powerful in the right hands. Max Flare and Max Geyser boost their own damage by setting weather, something doubly powerful in the hands of Swift Swim sweepers. A similar story can be told for Electric-, Grass-, and Psychic-types that can set their own terrain and immediately boost their own damage. Of these, Max Mindstorm is especially notable for blocking priority, which is an incredibly powerful option for sweepers like Polteageist, Barraskewda, and Hatterene. These moves show the problem extends beyond just particular Max Moves. Even the "less powerful" Max Moves in Max Knuckle and Max Ooze can be snowbally in the right hands.

Dynamax brings insane defensive utility as well that makes fast sweepers all the more dangerous. Doubling health effectively halves damage taken, which turns every sweeper into a tank that's difficult to take out. Setting up your sweeper becomes so much easier when you can rest assured that even a double into a supposed check is unlikely to stop your sweep. For example, for Dragon teams, double switching out to Duraludon on Gyarados as it Dragon Dances is almost worthless, as even a Max Lightning fails to OHKO a Dynamax-boosted Gyarados, which means it has much more leeway in trying to set up. Trace Gardevoir can give up its Choice Scarf boost temporarily in order to fire off powerful Max Mindstorms and Max Overgrowths against Water teams, as even rain-boosted Choice Band Barraskewda can't OHKO it from full. Pokemon like Barraskewda, Excadrill, and Hatterene that abuse Life Orb during Dynamax are even more durable because the recoil is halved to 5%.

For all of these reasons, the council agrees with the overall consensus from the Dynamax in Monotype thread: Dynamax is simply too good for our metagame.
Eh, let smogon play they're own way.
 
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