From an out of universe standpoint, why do you think Ash won the Alola league?

[game3524]

The league in itself isn't a game changer, but the world tournament is. It is going to be hard take another badge quest seriously after all of this, especially if Ash does really well (top 4-8).

 

[Daren]

But not the only way, as we saw with the Orange Islands and Battle Frontier.

Those don't really seem to be counted as the same level; the Frontier in particular let you rematch the Frontier Brains, which isn't an option in a league (I don't think it was specified if you have more than one shot at Drake)--you only have one shot or you have to wait for the next tournament. They also spent quite a bit of effort hyping up the Alola league win, but immediately undercut both the OI and the Frontier by having Gary beat him. In Alola's case he went on a respectably winning streak only broken by the world champion.

As for the Sinnoh League itself, it's not sufficient evidence of a mandate as any oddities can be explained by poor planning on the writing team's behalf. Even if it was a mandate, conceiving a character with two unexplained legendary Pokemon was a rubbish idea. You'd think that if they knew Ash was going to lose from the beginning that they'd establish a worthy trainer to defeat him from the get-go, wouldn't you? Yet the dream killers have always been last minute introductions, which suggests to me the outcome of any league is decided late on in the series.

It's not really evidence so much as it raises my suspicions; Tobias is so over the top he feels intentionally ridiculous.
It's not unheard of for writers to find ways to chafe against editorial meddling.
For one amusing example, when the creator of Rocko's Modern Life was told to add a "a professional woman, someone with a good hook" to the show, he created a women dentist who literally had a hook for a hand.

Tobias feels sort of similar. They could not let Ash win, but he was so ridiculous it felt like a parody; he had at least two Legendaries, one of them has been sweeping every opponent and even sweeps the finals after he loses two to Ash.
It's not proof, no, but it's pretty strange just how crazy Tobias was and just how obvious it was that Ash would have won if he wasn't there.

Ash vs Kukui and Tapu Koko was mooted as early as the second episode. Tapu Koko was very clearly established as a significant obstacle for Ash to overcome, being the reason behind his decision to do the Trials and beating him twice. While it's unlikely they had all the fine details worked out, it seems to me they had SM's climatic battles in mind from the beginning.

I do think Ash vs Kukui and Tapu Koko was always the endgame plan--in general I think the main endgame was usually planned out even if they had to change them (Brandon is a very obvious example since he didn't exist when AG started), but that didn't require him to win the league anymore than Ash Vs Gary or Ash Vs Paul had to be the league finals.

Also, I think both of you are missing the point of the Alola League in the first place. It was never meant to be a competition to prove who was the "best", but a culmination of everyone's personal journeys and a display of how much they've grown over the course of the series. Kukui said it himself: the most important thing wasn't who became Champion, but people taking part and becoming one with their Pokemon. So it absolutely fits with the overall tone and themes established in SM from the very beginning.

Well...let's just say I doubt the show's sincerity when it comes to the morals it tries to impart. I feel they mostly only apply to Ash and other characters flaws don't stop them from becoming Champions.
In regards to becoming Champion not being the most important thing; it's certainly telling from a meta standpoint that becoming Champion leads to the series where Ash doesn't reset and advances his arc, but if he'd lost I'd bet quite a bit we'd be in the middle of a Galar Gym Badge quest right now and he'd be about on schedule for his first Gym loss.

The league in itself isn't a game changer, but the world tournament is. It is going to be hard take another badge quest seriously after all of this, especially if Ash does really well (top 4-8).

That's why I expect the next series is changing things up significantly again, though how I cannot say.

 

[Venomaid]

I think that they had already thought of the region hopping and world championship angle in Journeys when they planned the Alola League finale so they probably thought that having Ash win a big League could finally happen since there was going to be a bigger championship in the future.

I don't buy the excuse that the writing staff gave into fan backlash from the Kalos League because if they cared at all about fan complaints they would've had Ash win the Unova League after his controversial loss at the Sinnoh League.

 

[Daren]

I don't buy the excuse that the writing staff gave into fan backlash from the Kalos League because if they cared at all about fan complaints they would've had Ash win the Unova League after his controversial loss at the Sinnoh League.

Social media was nowhere near as omnipresent during DP, so the Sinnoh backlash was much more contained. It was also a bit less intense in general--we knew he wasn't winning Sinnoh at that point so some people were actually pleasantly surprised he beat some of Tobias' party. Nowadays it's reputation has soured though; I think Ash doing worse in the Unova league might actually be part of the reason Sinnoh's finale has gotten more controversial over time since it made him getting closer mean less now that it was confirmed he could drop in ranking.

Also, I'm pretty sure I read Wobbufett came back because he won a popularity poll for TR's Pokémon; if that was right then we know they respond to some fan comments. I believe the TRio going back to closer to their classic selves in XY was also due to negative backlash to BW TR?

 

[Hidden Mew]

I don't buy the excuse that the writing staff gave into fan backlash from the Kalos League because if they cared at all about fan complaints they would've had Ash win the Unova League after his controversial loss at the Sinnoh League.

I'm not sure if I'd describe the Sinnoh League defeat as controversial, or at least not on the same level as the Kalos League finale. Fans knew Ash was going to lose the moment his match with Tobias was set, if not when he was introduced at the start of the League. People were and still are upset with how Ash lost, but it mostly comes down to Tobias being ridiculously overpowered with at least two Legendary Pokemon under his belt. Personally, I never had a problem with it since Ash going down in a blaze of glory against Legendary Pokemon was a cooler way to handle his defeat than if he lost to a regular trainer right after his battle with Paul. But it does understandably bother people that they effectively had to create an overpowered trainer to seemingly prevent Ash from winning the Sinnoh League. If he was going to win it back then, they would have saved Ash vs. Paul for the final round. No other match would have the same kind of emotional investment as that one considering DP spent years establishing their rivalry and building up to this last show down. Their rivalry was a major storyline throughout DP, so having that match set during the Top 8 was a clear indication that Ash was going to lose too.

The Kalos League was different due to how for once, the outcome wasn't extremely clear. Ash got to the finals for the first time and even the episode summaries for the following episodes didn't give away the results like they normally do. Fans didn't know the results until the episode had aired, which I don't think had happened before. There was a lot of hype for the Kalos League, people understandably assumed that they were hyping up Alain's own overpowered skills to build up to Ash's victory, Greninja had mastered its new power and the unclear outcome led a lot of people to believe that Ash was going to win. With all of that hype and excitement behind it, a lot of fans did get upset to see that Ash still couldn't win for seemingly no reason other than to maintain the status quo.

Social media being far more widespread during XY compared to DP is a huge factor too, but I don't think that the Sinnoh League defeat would have created the same kind of intense backlash that the Kalos League finale did if more people were commenting it on Twitter at the time. There was just far more excitement for the Kalos League than I had seen for the other ones in large part because many people thought that Ash was going to win it and seeing when it didn't go that way made people more upset and disappointed than the writers might have expected. I still don't think this was a huge factor, but the timing is just a bit suspicious to me.

 

[game3524]

I don't buy the excuse that the writing staff gave into fan backlash from the Kalos League because if they cared at all about fan complaints they would've had Ash win the Unova League after his controversial loss at the Sinnoh League.

Social media's influence on not just Pokemon, but nearly everything is overrated. Take Dexit, there was far more outrage concerning that then the Kalos League and yet GF pushed forward and SS sold very well. A loud vocal minority online is just that a loud vocal minority.

 

[Daren]

Social media's influence on not just Pokemon, but nearly everything is overrated. Take Dexit, there was far more outrage concerning that then the Kalos League and yet GF pushed forward and SS sold very well. A loud vocal minority online is just that a loud vocal minority.

I'm not sure dexit is the best example when they're re-adding a ton of the cut Pokémon this year.

 

[Panky..]

Social media's influence on not just Pokemon, but nearly everything is overrated. Take Dexit, there was far more outrage concerning that then the Kalos League and yet GF pushed forward and SS sold very well. A loud vocal minority online is just that a loud vocal minority.

Unless you've got statistical evidence that the people who complained about Dexit were a 'vocal minority', then don't push that title onto them. Because from what I recall, Dexit was definitely a huge negative point. And I like to think that they're re-adding cut content through DLCs because of that outrage.

Back on topic, social media influence is definitely a big factor, and it should be in this modern era. If I recall correctly, their stocks dropped due to the Kalos Final backlash and not co-incidentally, Ash winning a League was met with a huge wave of positivity.`

 

[game3524]

I'm not sure dexit is the best example when they're re-adding a ton of the cut Pokémon this year.

Which is something they likely were going to do anyway.

Unless you've got statistical evidence that the people who complained about Dexit were a 'vocal minority', then don't push that title onto them. Because from what I recall, Dexit was definitely a huge negative point. And I like to think that they're re-adding cut content through DLCs because of that outrage.

SS sale numbers. I don't like the games that much and yet they did very well. Those this proved that the people most upset about dexit didn't make up the majority of fans. People ended up buying the games anyway. Also, I as I said earlier re-adding Pokemon was something they had likely had planned before Dexit. It was another way for them to make money.

 

[Daren]

Back on topic, social media influence is definitely a big factor, and it should be in this modern era. If I recall correctly, their stocks dropped due to the Kalos Final backlash and not co-incidentally, Ash winning a League was met with a huge wave of positivity.`

I recall that Nintendo stock drop right after, though I'm not convinced it wasn't a coincidence.

Which is something they likely were going to do anyway.

Masuda said at first there were no plans to re-add missing Pokémon.

Game Freak currently has no plans to add missing Pokemon in Sword/Shield later on

Game Freak made it known earlier this year that not all Pokemon can be brought over to Pokemon Sword and Pokemon Shield. Based on early leaks, quite a number of creatures were cut. While some fans have held out hope that they’ll be added later on through opportunities such as updates, it sounds...

nintendoeverything.com

I suppose you could argue it was meant as "not going to add all of them" though; translation can be a tricky thing.

 

[game3524]

Yeah, I know what Masuda said and I don't buy it. Granted, I am cynical when it comes to GF.

 

[Hidden Mew]

I kind of hope that they aren't adding in older Pokemon to satisfy the National Dex crowd, but that's mainly because of how I've seen and heard way too much toxic behavior from that side of the issue. Plus, I imagine that they had plans for the DLC before the backlash and he just simply wasn't allowed to say anything about adding older Pokemon when that interview happened.

 

[ii kanji]

Also, I'm pretty sure I read Wobbufett came back because he won a popularity poll for TR's Pokémon; if that was right then we know they respond to some fan comments.

I don’t know that we can establish causality here. On one hand that poll was nearly a full year before Sonansu returned, but I strongly suspect they only ever held a poll because they knew that he'd win (I mean come on, did Manene or freaking Dokucale ever stand a chance?!) My feeling is that they already had plans to bring Sonansu back, after all he'd already appeared in the Melotta short several months prior to this poll being run...

I believe the TRio going back to closer to their classic selves in XY was also due to negative backlash to BW TR?

So we assume, but we have to be mindful that some of the most vocal critics were the TRio's own seiyuus and senior production staff such as sound editor Masafumi Mima. Not sure fan backlash would have been meaningful without this.

 

[Antiyonder]

Whether or not fan backlash factored into this event, definitely seems like the higher ups don't entirely dismiss critique/backlash. Take Ash's drop in competency in BW. The fact that they upped it again in XY would suggest that the older fans backlash got to them or the target audience isn't as easily entertained as they thought/hoped it would be.

I'm not sure if I'd describe the Sinnoh League defeat as controversial, or at least not on the same level as the Kalos League finale. Fans knew Ash was going to lose the moment his match with Tobias was set, if not when he was introduced at the start of the League. People were and still are upset with how Ash lost, but it mostly comes down to Tobias being ridiculously overpowered with at least two Legendary Pokemon under his belt. Personally, I never had a problem with it since Ash going down in a blaze of glory against Legendary Pokemon was a cooler way to handle his defeat than if he lost to a regular trainer right after his battle with Paul.

That and Tobias doesn't strike one as incompetent as to like say assuming that the Sinnoh League is in the Kanto Region .

But it does understandably bother people that they effectively had to create an overpowered trainer to seemingly prevent Ash from winning the Sinnoh League. If he was going to win it back then, they would have saved Ash vs. Paul for the final round. No other match would have the same kind of emotional investment as that one considering DP spent years establishing their rivalry and building up to this last show down. Their rivalry was a major storyline throughout DP, so having that match set during the Top 8 was a clear indication that Ash was going to lose too.

Mixed here. On the one hand prior to spoilers, one might have expected the Johto Season to be the last story with Ash or the one where he became Champion as he improved in his Gym Matches and defeated his longtime rival in a full 6-on-6 match. But he still lost and we got Advanced.

Nonetheless Sinnoh still had a few or couple aspects which understandably gave the impression that a win was possible.

1. Still need to rewatch all of Advanced (and am looking to get the DVDs in the next two months or so), so I'm prepared to be proven wrong, but DP gave focus or more focus to Ash actually training his team beyond just trainer battles and working on new moves. Reaching but it does help to make it plausible that he'd be able to win a Championship.

2. Debatable whether it counts for anything, but Tobias aside, having Ash's League opponents be recurring characters rather than ones introduced during or shortly before the League is a big deal.

3. And yeah, it does beg the question why DP finally featured appearances from all of the Region's Elite Four and Champion within it's series when only one of the Kanto members was introduced in the right arc with the rest being introduced the Orange Islands, Johto and after Hoenn. Given the short/non passage of time you could argue that Johto might not have an Elite Four, but then Hoenn is only represented by Drake, with it's Champion appearing in DP.

 

[Captain Save A Ho-Oh]

boost ratings and get out-of-fanbase attention. they wanted old fans that grew out of the anime to say "dude for realz ??? ash won pocket monst3r zomg" basically they wanted to do something that would catch people's attention. and it worked. They'll probably do "Ash turns 11" or "Ash's dad is mentioned again(?)" or "Ash tearfully comes out as gay infront his family and friends" just something to get people talking. It's a formula.

u better enjoy it too, because it's not gonna happen again ;^)

 

[Daren]

u better enjoy it too, because it's not gonna happen again ;^)

Now that the door is open the only way I see this being true is if he retires before entering another league.

 

[TheLoonyRebel]

boost ratings and get out-of-fanbase attention. they wanted old fans that grew out of the anime to say "dude for realz ??? ash won pocket monst3r zomg" basically they wanted to do something that would catch people's attention. and it worked.

Honestly Ash winning was huge enough that ESPN was hyping his win. So naturally by the time it aired on Disney XD nobody cared any more because it was months old and people who were interested either watched the fan sub or moved on.

 

[prog rocker]

I kind of hope that they aren't adding in older Pokemon to satisfy the National Dex crowd, but that's mainly because of how I've seen and heard way too much toxic behavior from that side of the issue.

Same here. At first I was sympathetic to them, but after things like the fake rape accusation towards Masuda and how they keep spamming the Pokémon Twitter destroyed any respect I had for them.

 

[TheLoonyRebel]

Same here. At first I was sympathetic to them, but after things like the fake rape accusation towards Masuda and how they keep spamming the Pokémon Twitter destroyed any respect I had for them.

Wait... what? Since I don't fully follow the Twitter drama can you fill me in on this please?

 

[prog rocker]

Wait... what? Since I don't fully follow the Twitter drama can you fill me in on this please?

If you mean the rape accusation, it was extremely over the top and was done by someone with a 1-day old Twitter account, but it was enough to stop caring about the whole situation.