Garchomp's Tier Shift

[ShinyFlareon]

Source: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45619

So, now according to Smogon's Test Voting Site,Garchomp has now officially been moved into the Uber tier. Thoughts, concerns, opinions?

 

[Blackjack Gabbiani]

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Anyway, how is it that Smogon got to be the ones that everyone listens to about things like this? What if someone disagrees? And it's not like Game Freak gives a damn, so what's the big deal?

 

[Pokemon Coordinator]

Anyway, how is it that Smogon got to be the ones that everyone listens to about things like this? What if someone disagrees? And it's not like Game Freak gives a damn, so what's the big deal?

It's because they're serious business. I dunno, I will always see the Chomp as OU.

 

[PDL]

Gamefreak doesn't know shit about competitive Pokemon. That's our job, and so we make rules.

Correction, these "rules" aren't really rules, more like guidelines to the competitive metagame.

You have absolutely no obligation to follow them. They just exist because people have actually tested out to see what works best.

Any game with multiplayer that has differences between the playing pieces is going to have a metagame to it.

Also, I'm pretty damn certain that the designers of the game themselves know how their own battle system works, they just don't really know or care about how their system will turn out. They just introduce a new concept and see how that works in the existing metagame. If it intergrates well, they don't change it, however, if a problem arises, they fix it by introducing new elements. Such as giving a Pokémon a move or changing the effects of the move.

 

[Psychotic_Darkrai]

They're rules no matter what. They're rules that are restricting the competitive field from actually being challenging. This uber shifting crap, and this sleep clause crap drives me crazy. When I battle online or with friends, I don't care what they use. Just as long as no pokemon are hacked, I'm fine. I don't care if anyone's team has six ubers on it. I just have fun.

 

[Cheesus Is Lord]

If someone knows what they are doing, a team with six ubers is practically unbeatable without also using ubers. This makes the game boring very fast, as there aren't many options there. If you don't mind playing with ubers, that's fine, but the rule makes sense.

Back on topic, I don't know. In many ways, Garchomp was very difficult to counter in the OU, but to say that its lack of counters was enough to move it into ubers... I don't know. I'm on the fence about this one. It did certainly centralize the metagame somewhat around it, but I'm not sure whether it was enough for the tier shift.

 

[PDL]

It'll probably end up like Wobba and drift in and out of OU and Uber for a while.

Until the 5th gen introduces something even more powerful.

 

[The Outrage]

Anyway, how is it that Smogon got to be the ones that everyone listens to about things like this? What if someone disagrees? And it's not like Game Freak gives a damn, so what's the big deal?

I don't know, maybe it was because Smogon was basically one of the first competitive fansites and is the largest english speaking one. Oh yeah and the hundreds of competitive battlers who actually went out and tested this stuff, but obviously they don't count at all.

Oh and the big deal is that it allows for a more balanced metagame.

And if you disagree, make an account and put up a legitamate arguement. They encourage it. What they don't encourage is people who have no prior experience in competitive battling (and wifi battles with your friends don't really count as experience) randomly attacking what hundreds of users have spent hours testing to see whether it is banned or not.

They're rules no matter what. They're rules that are restricting the competitive field from actually being challenging. This uber shifting crap, and this sleep clause crap drives me crazy.

Funny, the whole point of banning the Pokemon in the uber metagame is to make it less constricting for other Pokemon who can't compete. I mean Pokemon like Nidoqueen were actually seeing a vast change in usage in the test ladder, and Magnezone was poping up again.

Oh yeah, obviously the sleep clause is so bad when it keeps from Chocie Scarf breloom from sporing you to death. Oh and ffyi Sleep Clause was a standard clause in most Pokemon games that had tournaments in them up until Generation IV.

And I see no one stopping you from using a team of UUs in ubers if you want a challenge so badly. I mean I see a lot of good players using UU in OU for a challenge and win. Less talk more action.

Originally Posted by shedinjask
Gamefreak doesn't know shit about competitive Pokemon. That's our job, and so we make rules.

Dark and steel types beg to differ, aswell as Hypnosis apparantly chanigng in accuracy within the same generation.


Also why does it matter to the majority of Bulbagarden-users? Its not like this place is that big on competitive battling. Most of you guys aren't even what one would consider a competitive battler and these guidelines don't apply to you.

Its not as if I give a shit that Garchomp is uber if I'm using it in the Battle Frontier.

 

[PDL]

I honestly don't expect Garchomp to be in Ubers for too long either. He'll probably end up being like bottom rung since ubers is well... Ubers.

I also expect him to be nerfed somehow by the 5th generation and made about equal as Tyranitar is now.

 

[Psychotic_Darkrai]

I don't know, maybe it was because Smogon was basically one of the first competitive fansites and is the largest english speaking one. Oh yeah and the hundreds of competitive battlers who actually went out and tested this stuff, but obviously they don't count at all.

Oh and the big deal is that it allows for a more balanced metagame.

And if you disagree, make an account and put up a legitamate arguement. They encourage it. What they don't encourage is people who have no prior experience in competitive battling (and wifi battles with your friends don't really count as experience) randomly attacking what hundreds of users have spent hours testing to see whether it is banned or not.



Funny, the whole point of banning the Pokemon in the uber metagame is to make it less constricting for other Pokemon who can't compete. I mean Pokemon like Nidoqueen were actually seeing a vast change in usage in the test ladder, and Magnezone was poping up again.

Oh yeah, obviously the sleep clause is so bad when it keeps from Chocie Scarf breloom from sporing you to death. Oh and ffyi Sleep Clause was a standard clause in most Pokemon games that had tournaments in them up until Generation IV.

And I see no one stopping you from using a team of UUs in ubers if you want a challenge so badly. I mean I see a lot of good players using UU in OU for a challenge and win. Less talk more action.


Dark and steel types beg to differ, aswell as Hypnosis apparantly chanigng in accuracy within the same generation.


Also why does it matter to the majority of Bulbagarden-users? Its not like this place is that big on competitive battling. Most of you guys aren't even what one would consider a competitive battler and these guidelines don't apply to you.

Its not as if I give a shit that Garchomp is uber if I'm using it in the Battle Frontier.

Ooh, aren't you all cool? I want to be like you. /sarcasm/ I don't see you on serebii beating the best of the best, I don't see you tutoring others in smogon. Don't talk too much about yourself, its the internet, being too full of yourself makes you look like an idiot.

 

[The Outrage]

I honestly don't expect Garchomp to be in Ubers for too long either. He'll probably end up being like bottom rung since ubers is well... Ubers.

I also expect him to be nerfed somehow by the 5th generation and made about equal as Tyranitar is now.

Yeah seriosuly, Tyranitar was a pretty big threat last generation. I doubt Garchomp's uberness would be reversed just because it suck at uber though. Uber is merely meant as a ban tier eventhough it is its own competitive metagame. It won't go down a tier because it sucks there. There's the option of a BL Uber, but that just becomse redundant aswell since if everyone starts playing BL Uber for Garchomp, then it becomes the new "Standard" and the whole cycle starts again. If people leave it alone as much as they've left BL, then Garchomp is jsut in limbo. Rather than being remembered as "too awsome for OU" it may begin to be seen as "too crap for ubers"

Unfortunate that whatever the case, it is now in limbo. Though, who knows, being faster than Rayquaza, people may still opt to use him, especially if they use the less common Sand Storm team in uber just to screw with Kyogre and Groudon.

 

[empoleon dynamite]

Also why does it matter to the majority of Bulbagarden-users? Its not like this place is that big on competitive battling. Most of you guys aren't even what one would consider a competitive battler and these guidelines don't apply to you.

Have the Smogon elitists brainwashed you Outrage? Regardless of whether bulbagarden is a competetive site, pretty much everyone who plays wifi has to put up with the rules. I'm getting pretty sick of how big Smogon's ego is getting and their What-we-say-goes policy. Don't get me wrong, Garchomp IS broken.

Regardless of what Smogon thinks, I consider myself a competetive battler. Although I probibly don't fit under this catagory anyway since I know a lot when it comes to battling.

Ooh, aren't you all cool? I want to be like you. /sarcasm/ I don't see you on serebii beating the best of the best, I don't see you tutoring others in smogon. Don't talk too much about yourself, its the internet, being too full of yourself makes you look like an idiot.

This was a childish way to go around it. I wouldn't consider Serebii as a site to have "the best of the best".

 

[The Outrage]

Why do you refer to us as if we are a singular entity? Smogon is a community of people, and I'm positive most of them don't know who you are. Stop trying to play the victim, we aren't out to get you for whatever reason.

Yeah seriously. I'm always amazed at the statement "Why does Smogon get to decide the tiers" as if it was one being doing it all. A more correct statement would be "Why do hundreds of people who spend hours testing these Pokemon get to decide the tier list for their community?" Of course, if they ask it that way, then they've just answered their own question.

Have the Smogon elitists brainwashed you Outrage? Regardless of whether bulbagarden is a competetive site, pretty much everyone who plays wifi has to put up with the rules. I'm getting pretty sick of how big Smogon's ego is getting and their What-we-say-goes policy. Don't get me wrong, Garchomp IS broken.

Weird statement. I'm not speaking on behalf of Smogon, but my understanding of why things are the way they are; why there is a tier list and why almost everyone has adopted some part of Smogon when battling competitively.

This is why I don't get most people who complain about this issue. Unless you are challenging someone who wishes to use those guidelines or are on Shoddy (smogon server) then you are not bound by them. If you challenge someone else on wifi, then it is common courtesy for you to follow the guidelines that they want to abide by. If someone challenges you, then they should follow the guidelines you wish to follow.

If its PBR wifi, go ahead, have a free-for-all.

 

[Trainer-c]

To be honest, I am not surprised one bit to see Garchomp move to Ubers. But then, I have been watching the discussions, and developments on Garchomp since it first emerged as a dominating force in OU. I agree with the thoughts that Garchomp probably will float between the two tiers until Gen V where it will likely lose some of it's edge, and become much like Tyranitar is today.

This decision should open up the OU tier a little more. Players will be a little more willing to experiment and user different Pokémon without the "OMG Garchomp will destroy me" factor.

 

[empoleon dynamite]

I did'nt think I'd have to post in this thread again. Then again, I didn't think I would get much reply from my statement.

It seems as if you are angry because we did not take your opinion into account for this decision.

Actualy, I never stated my opinion. If I did I would have probibly agreed. The only other option I see is downgrading the Lati's but that might bring more problems.

I'd rather say "Smogon" than "hundreds of people who spend hours testing these Pokemon get to decide the tier list for their community?" As if it's some sort of chore. It's not a charity case. If it was really so hard for them to do, I feel sorry for them, there are harder and more admirable things to do in life than testing Pokemon.

However, I guess I should apoligize to you chaos. Spending time on shoddy battle, i've realised the majority of admins there have horrible attitudes. There's pride, then there's plain bigheadedness.

 

[Sketch]

Personally? I don't care that it's Uber now. I'm still going to use it. Why you ask? Because I don't care. I just bred an excellent Gible so I don't want it to go to waste.

 

[The Outrage]

... and finally, if you're not taking tiers into consideration, why post in this topic... it doesn't apply to you...

Because there is this insane mentality going around that just because a competitive battling site has decided something for their community, and that other people adapt these rules outside of said community, that it must be an unjust law that all must follow or else.

Also chaos is a mod on Bulbagarden?

You get italics if you are affiliated with them, so no he's not.

Personally, I've never had trouble with Garchomp, but that's because I ran a Hail team which made it fairly hard for it to come in on me in the first place. I'm more concerned right now about Salamence in bed with Outrage.

Perhaps if this was posted in the RMT section we'd get more people who actually are concerned with tiers posting and less people who seem to think that they are bound by it outside of competitive battling as if it were law.

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Because there is this insane mentality going around that just because a competitive battling site has decided something for their community, and that other people adapt these rules outside of said community, that it must be an unjust law that all must follow or else.

Well, when it's referred to as "standard battle", how else CAN you take it?

 

[The Outrage]

Well, when it's referred to as "standard battle", how else CAN you take it?

Well I guess a lesson in fanon terminology is in order. When one refers to a "standard" battle, they mean it in terms of competitive battling. The "Standard" tier if I recall is merely the tier which the majority of competitive players play. In this case it is Overused. So when one is a competitive battler using the term "standard" they mean OU (or whatever tier had become standard). Though I begin to wonder if UU can ever really be standard. If enough people played it to make it standard then those Pokemon would be OU now themselves ._.

Its the "Standard" rules because those are the rules the majority of competitive battlers are playing by.

Besides, most people I see complaining about tiers don't even know anything about them and probably don't even know what the "standard" tier is.

Now can this just turn back into a discussion about what we think of Garchomp being uber rather than implications of Smogon being a tyrant being bent on taking the world of battling?

 

[GrnMarvl14]

Well I guess a lesson in fanon terminology is in order. When one refers to a "standard" battle, they mean it in terms of competitive battling. The "Standard" tier if I recall is merely the tier which the majority of competitive players play. In this case it is Overused. So when one is a competitive battler using the term "standard" they mean OU (or whatever tier had become standard). Though I begin to wonder if UU can ever really be standard. If enough people played it to make it standard then those Pokemon would be OU now themselves ._.

Its the "Standard" rules because those are the rules the majority of competitive battlers are playing by.

Eh, usually standards are decided upon by an official organization. While it's nice to see the fans pooling together for once, I think you can see where all of the issues come from.

It's the old "I wasn't consulted when the rules were made, so fuck 'em, those who follow them, and those who enforce them" argument.