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General Discussion

Angad

Prayers to Oak Creek
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This is the spot where if things go if they have no other location. This isn't a team rating thread, but talking about certain Pokemon and wondering things. This is also the place to post and discuss new aspects introduced into competitive battling.

Conversation Starter: Espeon, Celebi, and Gastrodon all moved to OU, which was generally expected.

Blastoise, Cresselia, Umbreon, Rhyperior, Stoutland, and Golurk jump from RU to UU, which looks to shake up the RU metagame for sure, and Machamp (NO! FUCK YOU, COCKELDERP), Porygon2, Hippowdon (Holy Shit, every tier will now have sand, this single most important Pokemon to come to UU), Whimisicott (Called it), Darmanitian (A little surprising, a little expected), Chandelure (This Gen's Electivire as long as it doesn't have Shadow Tag), and Tornadus (First time a Djinn has been in UU) have all fallen from OU from UU, who all have the potential to change the face of UU as we know it.

Charizard(Needs to be in NU already), Victreebel, Tangrowth, and Sawsbuck have dropped into RU, who have all been severely affected by the banned of Drought in UU.
 
Actually, used a GOlurk in OU for a time. It really worked well, because of it's sheer power and Ghost typing, it worked as a spin blocker and took a chunk out of any switch ins. I can definitely see it making issues in the new metagame.
 
Okay, Tornadus and Chandelure being dropped to UU took me by surprise. I thought everybody would be using Chandelure, and I'm just surprised that Tornadus isn't used more than it is. Sawsbuck, too - I used one on a Drought team with massive effect. I thought Whimsicott would be dropped, too. It's a shame its usage has just been dropping since the beginning - I remember when they were everywhere.
 
Okay, Tornadus and Chandelure being dropped to UU took me by surprise. I thought everybody would be using Chandelure, and I'm just surprised that Tornadus isn't used more than it is. Sawsbuck, too - I used one on a Drought team with massive effect. I thought Whimsicott would be dropped, too. It's a shame its usage has just been dropping since the beginning - I remember when they were everywhere.

Even though I am a fan of Chandelure, apart from that 145 base spatk, it doesn't really have much going for it.


So have you guys checked out this thread.

I'm surprised to see some nominations like Volcarona. I agree that It has the best set up move but Its coverage is bad, sr screws it up, just phaze it out with something like Gyarados, use Azumarill, etc.

And I definitely think weather is centralizing the metagame. A non-weather team stands no chance in this metagame at all.

Edit:I so agree with what one of the posters said:

Auto Weather Abilities: I'd waste my time writing a few paragraphs on my thoughts about how much shit this metagame has turned into because of weather, but there are plenty already in this thread, and despite my hope, I'm very sure weather won't get banned, because it is simply too easy for people to copypaste for easy wins. Weather teams against non weather teams have a significant advantage, and unless you run your own weather (adding to the stirring pot), or are forced to run crap like hail on a random pokemon, the opponents team is set up from the start. People are even saying ridiculous things like "this is the weather meta", and usage stats show that it's so centralizing. Gastrodon, an effing RU, is now in OU, because he happens to be a good counter to rain. Celebi, formerly UU, is now in the top 20 because she is a good counter to rain as well. Tyranitar usage vs Excadrill usage has even shown that Ttar is now being used as an antiweather pokemon instead of just another goddamn sandstorm team. It is restricting. Half of the people in the tier have a weather team, and if I were to guess, I would say up to 75% of all teams have something to do with weather, be it copypasting a mindless strategy or being forced to counter weather. I have seen arguments saying that weather adds variety to the game with it's own teams and archetypes, but this is the most idiotic crap I have heard from any pro weather arguments. Yes, you are true in that it adds more viable strategies, but that doesnt matter worth a damn when it becomes the only viable strategy. I have never seen as much lack of variety than from weather, because no, it is not just another team type like trick room or gravity (those add REAL variety), it is a centralized overpowered force that everyone is starting to run because they realize they have no chance against it or they want an easy win. The bans from past rounds have seemed like holding back. Extremely holding back. Ban manaphy, ban swsw+drizzle, what's next, a ban on thundurus only? This is only showing weakness and unability to put a stop to the real problem. People keep cutting the heads off of the figurative hydra, but that will never kill it. Take away an abuser, stop the strongest ability in it's respective weather (whats next, chlorophyll + drought? ha), but the body of the hydra is still there. Every one of these nerf bans has had weather in common as the central power unit. Just ban the thing at the center, the real problem. Weather needs to gtfo.
 
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Yeah, the feeling I get looking at some of these tier changes is that a couple of things moved around, but OU is just as bad as it has been. I haven't played since Garchomp was banned. I had a non-weather team and it stands no chance right now.
 
What I cannot understand is why smogon is trying to evade complex bans. I understand that complex bans make team building tougher especially for people new to competitive battling, but bans like baton pass + magic bounce are more logical and definitely better than banning espeon or baton pass, neither of them being broken.
 
This is new territory, I think that's the main setback. The tiers have never been this complicated, and unfortunately it will probably only get worse in the future. On the subject of tiers...I was hoping I could get some opinions on something.

Last generation I did a match with someone where we only allowed the worst fully-evolved Pokemon in the game. I got a kick out of it, and I would like to try it again. Some Pokemon that were in it last gen got enough upgrade to move out, but I have expanded the scope a bit to include some Pokemon that may be useable in certain situations, but almost never are. What I'm going for is:

1) Enough parity between the worst of the worst and the top couple of Pokes to have a reasonable tier
2) Type matchups that won't lead to one thing being the obvious choice to use

Here's my draft list:
Luvdisc
Delibird
Unown
Farfetch'd
Spinda
Mawile
Delcatty
Corsola
Kricketune
Dustox
Beautifly
Beedrill
Ledian
Ariados
Plusle
Minun
Pachirisu
Sudowoodo
Magcargo
Raticate
Dunsparce*
Wormadam-S
Wormadam-G
Wormadam
Castform
Onix
Sunflora
Chimecho
Pelipper
Solrock
Lunatone
Seaking
Fearow
Noctowl
Carnivine
Banette
Seviper
Lumineon
Unfezant
Phione
Glalie
Heatmor
Pidgeot
Watchog
Cherrim

*Questionable

I'm not allowing NFE Pokes because that would get out of hand quickly due to eviolite. Any additions or subtractions are welcome :)
 
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This is new territory, I think that's the main setback. The tiers have never been this complicated, and unfortunately it will probably only get worse in the future. On the subject of tiers...I was hoping I could get some opinions on something.

Last generation I did a match with someone where we only allowed the worst fully-evolved Pokemon in the game. I got a kick out of it, and I would like to try it again. Some Pokemon that were in it last gen got enough upgrade to move out, but I have expanded the scope a bit to include some Pokemon that may be useable in certain situations, but almost never are. What I'm going for is:

1) Enough parity between the worst of the worst and the top couple of Pokes to have a reasonable tier
2) Type matchups that won't lead to one thing being the obvious choice to use

Here's my draft list:
Luvdisc
Delibird
Unown
Farfetch'd
Spinda
Mawile
Delcatty
Corsola
Kricketune
Dustox
Beautifly
Beedrill
Ledian
Ariados
Plusle
Minun
Pachirisu
Sudowoodo
Magcargo
Raticate
Dunsparce
Wormadam-S
Wormadam-G
Wormadam
Castform
Onix
Sunflora
Chimecho
Pelipper
Solrock
Lunatone
Seaking
Fearow
Noctowl
Carnivine
Banette
Seviper
Lumineon
Unfezant
Phione
Glalie
Heatmor

I'm not allowing NFE Pokes because that would get out of hand quickly due to eviolite. Any additions or subtractions are welcome :)

I think you forgot pidgeot and arbok.
Also, onix is a NFE.
This sorta reminds me of this.
 
I think you forgot pidgeot and arbok.
Also, onix is a NFE.
This sorta reminds me of this.

Oh yeah...I forgot about that thread. Same idea, it just came back to me because the main tiers are pretty unplayable right now. I think I'll keep Onix even though he is breaking my rule because he is different from his evolution and started out as a Pokemon that was stand-alone. Also, he is terrible...but is a good counter to the zillion normal and normal flying types that are in this tier.

I think Arbok is playable now, Pidgeot could probably be added. Looking at that other thread I should probably include Watchog and Cherrim. Not sure about Girafarig.

I see that Plusle/Minun were banned from the other tier, I assume it's because of Nasty Plot + Baton Pass. I guess you learn those things via testing.

I think if Baton Pass turned out to be too good...it could just be banned.
 
Oh yeah...I forgot about that thread. Same idea, it just came back to me because the main tiers are pretty unplayable right now. I think I'll keep Onix even though he is breaking my rule because he is different from his evolution and started out as a Pokemon that was stand-alone. Also, he is terrible...but is a good counter to the zillion normal and normal flying types that are in this tier.

I think Arbok is playable now, Pidgeot could probably be added. Looking at that other thread I should probably include Watchog and Cherrim. Not sure about Girafarig.

I see that Plusle/Minun were banned from the other tier, I assume it's because of Nasty Plot + Baton Pass. I guess you learn those things via testing.

I think if Baton Pass turned out to be too good...it could just be banned.

Dunsparce would become the jirachi of this tier. maybe even broken since i don't see a decent fighting type here.
 
Dunsparce would become the jirachi of this tier. maybe even broken since i don't see a decent fighting type here.

Yeah, I love Dunsparce though xD

He could definitely be trolling, but his defenses aren't that good and he doesn't have nearly as much power as something like Jirachi. I didn't see any Fighting types that would be bad enough to hang around this crew...did I miss any?

I can put Dunsparce on the questionable list.
 
What I cannot understand is why smogon is trying to evade complex bans. I understand that complex bans make team building tougher especially for people new to competitive battling, but bans like baton pass + magic bounce are more logical and definitely better than banning espeon or baton pass, neither of them being broken.
I actually don't like complex bans, and prefer the banning of individual pokemon or items. (As far as items go, that would be Focus Band, and Soul Dew.) I don't like that they outright ban various combination of pokemon on some teams. (Drizzle + Swift Swim.)

Maybe they should make an OU+ tier, with things like Kyogre being banned, but things like Ttar, Politoed, etc. present. (Blaziken could be there?)

Other than that, they could make "point limits" : Tyranitar could have 3 sand points, for example, and Garchomp would also have 3 sand points. Excadrill and Hippowdon would have 2. Your team as a whole couldn't exceed 5 sand points.
 
Well, FUCK. Hippowdon in UU is an absolute disgrace. It's going to be the bane of my existence, along with EvioSeed, Gligar, Stoutland and co. I'm really annoyed with UU right now.
 
To be fair, it's usually best to avoid complex bans, because when would you stop?
 
Darmanitan in UU, really? That probably won`t last long, it`s way too powerful. I predict it will eventually go to BL or back to OU.
 
Darmanitan's been UU for a while, and I think it belongs there. Once you get over the initial horror of seeing its stats and numbers, it's not that good at all in OU. What I don't agree with, though, is Victini being in UU (if that's still the case - I haven't seen tiers for a while).
 
Darmanitan's been UU for a while, and I think it belongs there. Once you get over the initial horror of seeing its stats and numbers, it's not that good at all in OU. What I don't agree with, though, is Victini being in UU (if that's still the case - I haven't seen tiers for a while).

Darmanitan is far more powerful than Victini.

@League and @Angad

The only way I can see smogon coming out of the baton pass and Espeon mess is a complex ban, tbh.
 
Darmanitan and Victini are quite similar, generally Scarfed or Banded Physical Fire types. Darmanitan usually plays more scout roles with U-turn while Victini acts more as a revenge killer or a very heavy-hitter if Banded or Lorbed. Both far from broken in UU. So many good counters.
 
Darmanitan and Victini are quite similar, generally Scarfed or Banded Physical Fire types. Darmanitan usually plays more scout roles with U-turn while Victini acts more as a revenge killer or a very heavy-hitter if Banded or Lorbed. Both far from broken in UU. So many good counters.

Well, Darmanitan has arguably better coverage and is slightly more difficult to revenge kill.
 
I imagine that Darmanitan will probably be a big threat in the new UU tier. Due to Sheer Force preventing LO recoil, Darmanitan might be somewhat less predictable than Victini. Victini can, however, still run mixed sets to catch people off-guard.
 
Please note: The thread is from 12 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
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