Generation IV Remake Speculation

[TechSkylander1518]

But out of the Sinnoh Pokemon in Sword and Shield, most of non-legendaries are part of another generation's evolutionary line. There are still a large number of purely Gen 4 non-legendary Pokemon still missing from the dex, including the obvious fossils.

I mean, I already pointed that out and gave my rebuttal:

And true, it's missing the starters, Pikaclone, and regional bird/rodent, but it also has pretty well-known Sinnoh mons like the Creation Trio, the pseudo, and Lucario.

But also, if we remove all the Pokemon from Sinnoh that aren't a crossgen evo, then that reduces our pool of Sinnoh mons to 77, removing 29 Pokemon from it.

Spoiler: Crossgen evos that I've removed

Budew, Roserade, Ambipom, Mismagius, Honchkrow, Chingling, Bonsly, Mime Jr, Happiny, Mantyke, Weavile, Magnezone, Lickilicky, Rhyperior, Tangrowth, Electivire, Magmortar, Togekiss, Yanmega, Leafeon, Glaceon, Gliscor, Mamoswine, Porygon Z, Gallade, Probopass, Dusknoir, Froslass, Munchlax

And of those 77 Pokemon, we still have 36 Pokemon left.

Spoiler

Shinx, Luxio Luxray, Combee, Vespiqueen, Mothin, Cherubi, Cherrim, Shellos, Gastrodon, Drifloon, Driftblim, Buneary, Lopunny, Stunky, Skuntank, Bronzong, Bronzor, Spiritomb, Gible, Gabite, Garchomp, Riolu, Lucario, Skorupi, Drapion, Croagunk, Toxicroak, Snover, Abomasnow, Hippopotas, Hippowdown, Rotom

And personally, if I was going to cut Sinnoh Pokemon from a dex to encourage people to buy a Sinnoh game, I wouldn't leave in half of the original designs, including a fan favorite featured heavily in the anime and sidegames, the Sinnoh Champion's ace, and the three cover legendaries.

If we take it a step further and remove all legendaries from the dex, then we're down to 63, removing 14 legendaries

Spoiler: Legendaries

Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Dialga, Palkia, Heatran, Regigigas, Giratina, Cresselia, Phione, Manaphy, Darkrai, Shaymin, Arceus

And of those 63, we have 31 Pokemon.

Spoiler

Shinx, Luxio Luxray, Combee, Vespiqueen, Mothin, Cherubi, Cherrim, Shellos, Gastrodon, Drifloon, Driftblim, Buneary, Lopunny, Stunky, Skuntank, Bronzong, Bronzor, Spiritomb, Gible, Gabite, Garchomp, Riolu, Lucario, Skorupi, Drapion, Croagunk, Toxicroak, Snover, Abomasnow, Hippopotas, Hippowdown, Rotom

No matter how you slice it, the ratio of included/excluded Sinnoh Pokemon tends to hover around half. (Unless of course you divide by type, in which case Sinnoh has 0% of its representation for Fire-types that aren't crossgen evos or legendaries. )

 

[Esserise]

(Unless of course you divide by type, in which case Sinnoh has 0% of its representation for Fire-types that aren't crossgen evos or legendaries. )

The funny thing is, you could really file all of Sinnoh's Fire types under some kind of special exemption status:

- Obligatory Starter line (Chimchar, Monferno, Infernape)
- Cross-gen evo (Magmortar)
- Legendary (Heatran)
- Mythical subform (Arceus w/Flame Plate)
- Wasn't actually Fire-type until BW retconned it (Heat Rotom)

 

[RileyXY1]

Yes, each generation is actually represented pretty equally for the most part. Who is and is not included is not really indicative of a remake for any generation. Although, it does feel slightly weighted toward gen 2 and 4. Also, Gens 2 and 4 didn't receive legendary story missions in Crown Tundra. The only other gen not to have one is 6, but 6 didn't have a trio of any kind and rehashing the Zygarde cell quest would have been boring. All of this doesn't really get us anywhere because logic dictates that one of the two is the most likely candidate for a game next year.

Yeah. It's hard to decide which of the two is more likely to receive a remake. Those two are the most deserving as they have not yet been seen in full 3D, a fact also shared by Gen 5. They are also missing just as much in terms of Pokemon as each other.

 

[SinnohEevee]

After CT, not having a wild area in Sinnoh would be cruel

 

[RileyXY1]

After CT, not having a wild area in Sinnoh would be cruel

Well, it simply can't be done without drastically modifying the region's layout. And besides, the remakes don't have to include every single new feature introduced in the newest gen.

 

[lonerlotad]

That wouldn't really be a "misunderstanding", because we cannot, and might not ever, be able to transfer the missing Pokemon to SwSh.

This is actually my biggest concern because I really want my Diamond Empoleon and Platinum event Shaymin that are currently stock at Home get the Galar League Ribbon. I'm trying to complete League Ribbons for my FRLG, Emerald, and DPPT teams.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Well, it simply can't be done without drastically modifying the region's layout. And besides, the remakes don't have to include every single new feature introduced in the newest gen.

Again?

 

[SinnohEevee]

Well, it simply can't be done without drastically modifying the region's layout. And besides, the remakes don't have to include every single new feature introduced in the newest gen.

You don't need to keep repeating yourself over and over. We get it, you want the remakes to reassemble the originals. But I can tell you the fans won't complain if Sinnoh is modified to include one or more wild areas. Fans have been demanding open world for a long time and expect it to be a staple of the series.

 

[RileyXY1]

You don't need to keep repeating yourself over and over. We get it, you want the remakes to reassemble the originals. But I can tell you the fans won't complain if Sinnoh is modified to include one or more wild areas. Fans have been demanding open world for a long time and expect it to be a staple of the series.

It's basically this: if you're going to drastically redesign Sinnoh to the point of unrecognizability, why not just make a whole new region?

 

[DawningWinds]

It's basically this: if you're going to drastically redesign Sinnoh to the point of unrecognizability, why not just make a whole new region?

Adding wild areas to Sinnoh probably wouldn't require redesigning it to the point of unrecognizablility- it would require some redesigning, yes, but it wouldn't have to be to the point that you can't look at the map and tell that it's still supposed to be Sinnoh.

 

[RileyXY1]

Adding wild areas to Sinnoh probably wouldn't require redesigning it to the point of unrecognizablility- it would require some redesigning, yes, but it wouldn't have to be to the point that you can't look at the map and tell that it's still supposed to be Sinnoh.

Sinnoh's layout isn't friendly to a Wild Area. It was designed for the Nintendo DS, so the region is a lot smaller than Galar. The region is also bisected by a massive mountain range.

 

[Phosphene]

Sinnoh's layout isn't friendly to a Wild Area. It was designed for the Nintendo DS, so the region is a lot smaller than Galar. The region is also bisected by a massive mountain range.

Still, as @DawningWinds said, a redesign of the region's routes would not make it completely unrecognizable regardless of how unfriendly its layout is for Wild Areas, how small it is, or its bisecting mountain range. You can still redesign the region's routes while maintaining their spirit so to speak. If I were to take the exact layout of a route from Sinnoh and a route from Johto, and rebuilt them using RSE graphics, would you be able to tell which belongs to which region? I'm going to assume most people wouldn't. I think the actual environments, the trees and rocks and other structures, and not the routes' actual layout are more signifiers of Sinnoh's identity. And besides, you can still maintain route direction even if you completely redesign the route. It wouldn't be that difficult to make route 201 progress rightwards or at least place Sandgem Town to the right of Twinleaf, for example, even if the route itself was completely overhauled.

 

[Adelon]

For what its worth I've noticed that some of the Pokemon available in Sword and Shield seem to share their Pokedex entries with Heartgold and Soulsilver, the Seedot and Lotad lines in particular whereas Pokemon that have evolutionary relatives introduced in Gen 4 often share at least one Pokedex entry with DPP.

As an example or two, Gallade and Togekiss have unique entries while their relatives usually borrow entries from Diamond, Pearl, and Platinum or FireRed and LeafGreen.

I don't think this necessarily means anything, it's just interesting to see.

 

[AngryBinacle]

People forget that the amount of Sinnoh Pokémon was actually quite low in the regional dex; Sinnoh basically had lots of gen 1, 2 and 3 Pokes. Platinum fixed a lot of that, luckily. I saw someone not counting the cross-generational evolutions in his/her equations, which is absurd, seeing how it would hypothetically be a double-incentive to get remakes: Pokémon like Aipom, Misdreavus and Murkrow would also reappear. You shouldn't look at just the Sinnoh Pokémon, but also to the Pokémon from earlier generations appearing on the Sinnoh routes (which there are a lot of). Even better, you should look at the amount of post gen4 Pokémon still missing in the game compared to the gen1-gen4 amount. You then see that more Pokémon are missing from gen1-4 than from 5-7 (in %).

All in all, I don't even think missing/appearing Pokémon even mean anything (if it did, I think the fossils and starters missing says a lot more), seeing how most people have caught huge swathes of the Pokédex in earlier games. Point is; The Pokémon are not the main selling point of a remake; it's the returning region with its many facets and feelings of nostalgia. I already got a full box of legendaries in Ultra Moon, why should I be bothered about Sinnoh Legendaries in the Crown Tundra? Or heck, in the potential remakes?

I just want to play a HD Sinnoh-experience. That's the power of nostalgia. Old Legendaries have become mainstream enough that they aren't a selling point anymore. Back before HGSS the Legendary Beasts and Lugia/Ho-Oh were actually quite uncommon, not after that.

Oh and a Let's Go Sinnoh? No way. Don't kill the pinnacle of DS Pokémon-experiences. The Let's Go series is separate from the other main RPG's; Remakes should roughly follow the same ol' tested and tried formula.

 

[Norzan]

Back before HGSS the Legendary Beasts and Lugia/Ho-Oh were actually quite uncommon, not after that.

I got my Ho-Oh and Lugia that are sitting in my Y copy from the Colosseum games, and i remember doing that 100 battles Battle Mode in Pokemon Colosseum just to get Ho-Oh (which by the way you needed to have caught and healed all 48 Shadow Pokemon as well). I like pokemon being more accesible to get, but i also kind of miss when they were this hard to get.

 

[AngryBinacle]

I got my Ho-Oh and Lugia that are sitting in my Y copy from the Colosseum games, and i remember doing that 100 battles Battle Mode in Pokemon Colosseum just to get Ho-Oh (which by the way you needed to have caught and healed all 48 Shadow Pokemon as well). I like pokemon being more accesible to get, but i also kind of miss when they were this hard to get.

Absolutely! 'A challenge to get' should be the way for event-mythicals, as well.

The mystery gift part is nonsensical after a while. But I guess that's for another discussion.

 

[blitzle stan]

All this talk about Sinnoh dex representation as a way to refute it as evidence of remakes, and curiously always ignoring the extremely strange decision to include every fossil in SwSh except gen 4. It is so very strange... there is no in-game reason to include every single one (roaming in the wild, even) except Cranidos and Shieldon. It only points to Sinnoh remakes as the explanation, since I honestly don’t see any other reason to leave them out.

And please don’t bring up how fan-favorites like Lucario are in. Of COURSE they are in. They are fan-favorites. It ONLY makes sense to save less-loved lines (like the fossils) for Sinnoh and focus on bringing the more popular ones in first.

 

[AngryBinacle]

I also want DP remakes, so the national dex will be complete (not that much missing from gen 5-7).

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I saw someone not counting the cross-generational evolutions in his/her equations, which is absurd, seeing how it would hypothetically be a double-incentive to get remakes: Pokémon like Aipom, Misdreavus and Murkrow would also reappear. You shouldn't look at just the Sinnoh Pokémon, but also to the Pokémon from earlier generations appearing on the Sinnoh routes (which there are a lot of).

If you're referring to me, I only did that because PokeDragon said it was unfair to include the crossgen evos in my count.

But out of the Sinnoh Pokemon in Sword and Shield, most of non-legendaries are part of another generation's evolutionary line. There are still a large number of purely Gen 4 non-legendary Pokemon still missing from the dex, including the obvious fossils.

You can see that I originally included them.

And out of the 106 species introduced in Gen 4, we have 58 of them obtainable in SwSh, more than half.

Spoiler: The list, if you're curious

Shinx, Luxio Luxray, Budew, Roserade, Combee, Vespiqueen, Mothin, Cherubi, Shellos, Gastrodon, Drifloon, Driftblim, Buneary, Lopunny, Stunky, Skuntank, Bronzong, Bronzor, Bonsly, Mime Jr, Happiny, Spiritomb, Gible, Gabite, Garchomp, Munchlax, Riolu, Lucario, Skorupi, Drapion, Croagunk, Toxicroak, Mantyke, Snover, Abomasnow, Weavile, Magnezone, Hippopotas, Hippowdown, Leafeon, Glaceon, Lickilicky, Rhyperior, Tangrowth, Electivire, Magmortar, Togekiss, Mamoswine, Porygon-Z, Gallade, Dusknoir, Froslass, Rotom, Dialga, Palkia, Regigas, Giratina, Cresselia

You shouldn't look at just the Sinnoh Pokémon, but also to the Pokémon from earlier generations appearing on the Sinnoh routes (which there are a lot of).

Sure, we can do that. And if we go by the regional dex:

Spoiler: Pokemon in the Sinnoh regional dex and in SwSh

Abra line, Magikarp line, Hoothoot line, Wooper line, Wingull line, Azurill line, Remoraid line, Tentacool line, Feebas line, Cleffa line, Pichu line, Ponyta line, Barboach line, Goldeen line, Gastly line, Heracross, Psyduck line, Machop line, Onix line, Swablu line, Scyther line

Lines with a Gen 4 prevo/evo- Mantine, Sneasel, Snorlax, Sudowoodo, Mr. Mime, Ralts line, Lickitung, Happiny line, Tangela, Magnemite line, Togepi line, Snover line, Swinub line, Magby line, Elekid line, Porygon line, Duskull line, Rhyhorn line

Spoiler: Each specific species, if you want to count by that

Abra, Kadabra, Alakazam, Magikarp, Gyarados, Hoothoot, Noctowl, Wooper, Quagsire, Wingull, Pelipper, Azurill, Marill, Azumarill, Remoraid, Octillery, Tentacool, Tentacruel, Feebas, Milotic, Cleffa, Clefairy, Clefable, Pichu, Pikachu, Raichu, Ponyta, Rapidash, Barboach, Whiscash, Goldeen, Seaking, Gastly, Haunter, Gengar, Heracross, Psyduck, Golduck, Machop, Machoke, Machamp, Onix, Steelix, Swablu, Altaria, Scyther, Scizor

With an evo/prevo-Mantine, Sneasel, Snorlax, Sudowoodo, Mr. Mime, Ralts, Kirlia, Gardevoir, Lickitung, Chansey, Blissey, Tangela, Magnemite, Magneton, Togepi, Togetic, Snover, Glalie, Swinub, Piloswine, Magby, Magmar, Elekid, Electabuzz, Porygon, Porygon2, Duskull, Dusclops, Rhyhorn, Rhydon,

Spoiler: Pokemon in the Sinnoh regional dex but not in SwSh

Zubat line, Unown, Girafarig, Meditite line, Wurmple line, Geodude line, Houndour line, Absol, Tropius

Pokemon with a Gen 4 prevo/evo- Aipom, Chimecho, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Yanma

Spoiler: Each specific species, if you want to count by that

Zubat, Golbat, Crobat, Unown, Girafarig, Meditite, Medicham, Wurmple, Silkoon, Beautifly, Cascoon, Dustox, Geodude, Graveler, Golem, Houndour, Houndoom, Absol, Tropius

Pokemon with a Gen 4 prevo/evo- Aipom, Chimecho, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Yanma

The difference is pretty striking. 21 unrelated evolutionary families included, 9 excluded. 18 lines with cross-gen evos included, only 5 excluded.

All this talk about Sinnoh dex representation as a way to refute it as evidence of remakes, and curiously always ignoring the extremely strange decision to include every fossil in SwSh except gen 4. It is so very strange... there is no in-game reason to include every single one (roaming in the wild, even) except Cranidos and Shieldon. It only points to Sinnoh remakes as the explanation, since I honestly don’t see any other reason to leave them out.

Both scenarios would be strange:

1. Game Freak left out Shieldon and Cranidos for no reason
2. Game Freak excluded them so that people will have new Pokemon to find in DP remakes, but they let people catch the DP cover legendaries in SwSh, Pokemon that are going to be featured more in promotion than the fossils.

And please don’t bring up how fan-favorites like Lucario are in. Of COURSE they are in. They are fan-favorites. It ONLY makes sense to save less-loved lines (like the fossils) for Sinnoh and focus on bringing the more popular ones in first.

Combee line, Cherubi line, Shellos line, Drifloon line, Stunky line, Bronzong line, Snover line... none of these are especially popular, either, but they still made their way into SwSh. A lot of them are pretty common types, too, it's not like they needed more Bug/Grass/Water types.

And to be clear, I'm not even saying that I don't think it's impossible that we might get a DP remake as the next mainline game, I'm just saying it doesn't really make sense to think that SwSh was developed to be a compliment to its dex.

 

[Minya_Nouvelle]

Game Freak excluded them so that people will have new Pokemon to find in DP remakes, but they let people catch the DP cover legendaries in SwSh, Pokemon that are going to be featured more in promotion than the fossils.

I don't understand why this is strange. The cover legendaries are caught very late in the game and few people use them on in-game teams. The fossils are obtained pretty early especially compared to other games. Besides, they probably felt like excluding gen 4 legendaries from the Dynamax Adventures would have detracted from the marketing of the DLC and the physical bundle coming out next month. Being able to say " you’ll be able to encounter every Legendary Pokémon " sounds a whole lot better than saying "you can encounter most of the legendary Pokemon" It's not like including Dialga and Palkia in the DLC is going to take away from the marketing of remakes.

Also, I think it has less to do with marketing and more to do with either it being a subtle nudge, nudge, wink, wink hint.

Also, I don't really have much justification for it but I do think that Gamefreak does care about the availablity of common pokemon a little bit more than that. Like, they excluded the gen 4 fossils because they are quite readily available compared to stuff like combee (which is honey tree exclusive), Drifloon (which appears once a week), Stunky (which is a version exclusive and Snover (which isn't available until before the 7th badge) Meanwhile, Shinx; which is usually very common in gen 4; is a weather exclusive encounter to the DLC. So, if someone picks up Diamond/Pearl and plays through super casually, the pokemon they are most likely to run into and use are pokemon that they didn't see in SwSh.

Edit: However, I will say that this is also true of gen 2 (except for hoothoot)