Generation IV Remake Speculation

[AngryBinacle]

This solution makes a lot of sense to me. Like I said before, competitive improvements are there mainly for competitive players; people who actually want to engage in the PvP side of the game. If the problem with post-game battle facilities really is the fact that they require competitive-level Pokémon in order to make progress, then why not... just make them not require that? That's what the Black Tower/White Treehollow did, after all, as it relied far more on the puzzle and resource-management elements (with some RNG mixed in) to generate difficulty, and personally speaking, that and Restricted Sparring are the only facilities that I not only for once bothered with, but actually completed all the way through. Plus, they've obviously had success with the post-game storylines, so weaving that sort of thing into it could also help give the more casual players an incentive to push into it.



See, it's times like when people say this while SwSh are literally standing shoulder-to-shoulder with BOTW in sales, and when the main series has pretty much been on a clear upward trajectory in terms of sales on each new system, where I feel like actually it's Game Freak who are the ones that are more in touch with what the series "needs," and not the Internet echochambers.

Skyward Sword may have been a "commercial success," but not one that's in the same universe as main series Pokémon games. Even USUM dunks on it. Some people will say that's because of Pokémon's brand power, but is it really? You don't see Pokkén Tournament or Mystery Dungeon DX doing SwSh numbers. It's always specifically the main series that proves titanically successful. The idea that people will buy whatever just because it has Pokémon on the cover is a myth.

Like, I remember when Link's Awakening was announced for the Switch, some people complained about it and compared it to Let's Go in terms of being a cutesy simplistic remake with a soft color palette, but commercially speaking, LA wishes it was Let's Go, which over the course of its lifespan has been thrice as successful. I'm not convinced that there's really anything worthwhile to the constant analogies that people draw between Zelda and Pokémon. To me, it seems they're different beasts with very different appeals.

You seem to have missed my point. Regardless of commercial succes, series can still be changed if the developers want to. Risks can still be made, if they want to. Commercial succes doesn't necessarily mean a franchise is good. Most forums are also hardly echo-chambers. I'm also not advocating for an open world in any way, shape or form. I think those are overrated.

The games can be much, much better and they don't even have to radically change the formula. If you've been reading my posts for a while, you'll know what I mean. Why should my, and many others', concerns be silenced by financial succes of a series? I think criticism is always needed. PvP content is fine, but challenging PvE content is severely lacking. Why can't we have that. It makes no sense. Really; It doesn't. Many of the things I want can be easily coupled to the games and STILL be a success.

@BackSet That's a toxic mindset, my friend. Let people enjoy their features, okay? It isn't too much to ask if you look at the game's poor difficulty. Many of my team-members remain barely used. Multiplayer is just not everything (raid battles, ranked battles, internet random's, etc.). Wanting a non-gimmicky feature to return is not 'crying'.

 

[Phosphene]

Some people will say that's because of Pokémon's brand power, but is it really? You don't see Pokkén Tournament or Mystery Dungeon DX doing SwSh numbers. It's always specifically the main series that proves titanically successful. The idea that people will buy whatever just because it has Pokémon on the cover is a myth.

I don't think the lack of commercial success with spinoffs completely disproves the idea that the Pokémon brand has power. It's not exactly surprising that Pokkén Tournament or Mystery Dungeon DX have lower sales numbers compared to the core series. They're spinoffs of a large franchise, which means they don't get as much focus as the older core series and don't have as strong of a following either. Both spinoffs also have a narrower appeal compared to Pokémon in my opinion.

As a counterargument, PMD is more popular than its non-Pokémon counterpart. Shiren the Wanderer is fairly obscure--even some PMD fans are unaware of it. Pokémon GO was bigger than its Harry Potter counterpart, Wizards Unite, if I remember correctly. While there are probably gameplay differences that might account for such disparities, I'm inclined to think that the Pokémon label also had an edge as well, though it is most likely not the only answer. Also, look at the Detective Pikachu movie. I'd say it was a mediocre movie, yet it was so gravitational in part because of its connection to Pokémon. If it was a Digimon or Yo-ki Watch movie instead, I don't think it would have been as successful.

While I don't think the Pokémon games continual successes are just because of the brand, I do think people see the Pokémon label and assume they will have a good time, and they probably will, sort of like purchasing a product from a specific company because you've had good experiences with past products. I think the idea that people will buy whatever is constrained primarily to the core series and more well-known products.

Most forums are also hardly echo-chambers.

I disagree here. Forums, especially more obscure ones such as here, are going to attract a specific subset of fans. The people who go on forums like BMGf more in the "hardcore" range compared to the wider fandom. While that doesn't mean a fandom is automatically an echochamber, you're probably only going to see discussion from a more hardcore perspective. Commentary that comes out of such forums shouldn't be dismissed, it also doesn't mean that said forums are an accurate representation of the fandom. They (most likely) reflect a minority group and lack input from other, less serious fans. Granted, this forum tends to be one of the more balanced I've seen.

 

[Unovia]

Honestly, I am hoping for a DP Remake, with elements of Platinum, like what ORAS was. ORAS was Ruby and Sapphire, with elements of Emerald. Diamond and Pearl will have a remake, with Platinum elements.

 

[Bolt Strike]

The Safari Zone expansion wouldn't have really added anything to ORAS. Its only purpose in Emerald was to toss in a handful of missing species, which is already accomplished many times over in ORAS by the Mirage Spots, the open sky, and the post-Weather Crisis migration. For the handful of Emerald species they didn't happen to include (because they were already available in XY, and let's keep in mind that Emerald only included the specific species that it did because those were ones that weren't already covered by FRLG), they also added like over 200 Pokémon that weren't in the original Ruby & Sapphire. Sure is some real religious fidelity right there. And frankly it makes more sense to include those species through stuff like Soaring and the DexNav, which are new features that people will be interested in, as opposed to "wow, some more grass to walk around in for some random encounters"

I mean I guess I sort of get it if you're like a hardcore Mareep or Shuckle fan but otherwise you're crying foul over like 400 grassland tiles. The SZ expansion was meager. I don't understand this sort of iron-clad, accept-no-substitutes mindset that people have about remakes. Tacking on an extra room to the Safari Zone in Emerald made sense at the time because back then, the games couldn't do cool shit like Soaring, but it was never anything more than a low-effort solution to squeeze in some more species; it was not exactly virtuous, meaningful content unto itself and it was not an idea with any real vision behind it.

You have to consider what the entire point of a remake is and how games are being sold. Thing is that video games, like most tech products, have an iterative business model. They create newer versions every so often that make the previous ones obsolete and the older ones fall off the market to encourage you to keep buying their products frequently. Why would I buy a Switch if my 3DS/Wii U works just fine? Or a PS5 when I can still play my PS4? They've created this business model where they create more powerful and sophisticated products, and that conditions people to expect the next product to be better than the last. So by creating a Hoenn remake, they're trying to bring them back on the market on more powerful hardware to replace the originals which have long since been out of print and are all but unobtainable. So since it's on much more advanced hardware and the originals are long gone, the remake should be night and day better than the originals and include most if not all of the features that the originals had. If there's something that the originals do better, it almost defeats the purpose of having remakes in the first place and it makes Emerald's obsolescence feel artificial.

Game Freak's "let's make unique features for each game" philosophy kind of feels that way really, and that's a larger part of the problem with the recent games' approach to content. It'd be a lot more effective if the older games were on the eShop or something and then players could just choose which version they wanted based on their preferences, but as is, sacrificing certain features to encourage people to buy games they're not even selling anymore is shooting themselves in the foot.

As for the Safari Zone in particular, by itself it might be a bit pointless, but instead of just cutting it they could've built on it. XY had the Friend Safari which gave Safari Zones an entirely new purpose as a customizable encounter method that encourages you to add friends, ORAS could've done something similar. Instead they just cut the extra areas and Pokemon and made it just a normal Pokemon catching area which almost makes it feel pointless.

Honestly, I am hoping for a DP Remake, with elements of Platinum, like what ORAS was. ORAS was Ruby and Sapphire, with elements of Emerald. Diamond and Pearl will have a remake, with Platinum elements.

What elements of Emerald? And don't say the Delta Episode, because the only thing that had in common with Emerald is Rayquaza. The only game that you can really label as "like the first two games with some third version elements" is HGSS.

 

[Minya_Nouvelle]

As for the Safari Zone in particular, by itself it might be a bit pointless, but instead of just cutting it they could've built on it. XY had the Friend Safari which gave Safari Zones an entirely new purpose as a customizable encounter method that encourages you to add friends, ORAS could've done something similar.

I'd rather have what we got than another Friend Safari (a little area to ride your bike around it). PokeNav and Mirage Spots/Soaring accomplishes pretty much the same thing as a Friend Safari and more, but in a way that's much less complicated and way more fun. I'm not really a fan of adding a bunch of strangers to my friend list just to unlock access to three completely random pokemon. Plus, I like riding my Arco bike on the rails.

Edit: I think Diamond/Pearl's safari zone will likely get a similar treatment of being turned into a normal route.

 

[RC821]

If they announced another expansion pass or an overhaul update to Pokemon Sword and Shield along with the Sinnoh remakes, they going to be like Pokemon Emerald and Pokemon FireRed/LeafGreen of 3D Pokemon games.

 

[Kallyle]

I agree, but considering the series' current trajectory I don't expect we'll see the Battle Frontier or similar features anytime soon. I suspect part of why Sw/Sh made levelling and improving Pokémon so easy is so they can just point to competitive MP.

That’s kind of why I’m afraid (and unfortunately believe Game Freak are going to drop the whole post-game facility thing real soon.

I understand that competitive multiplayer is not everyone's jam - I'm not really into it myself - and that some people want a more in-depth single-player challenge, but for Game Freak, that segment of the player base seems to be a very small minority. They've thrown us a bone here and there with things like the Battle Agency and Restricted Sparring, but the reality is that difficult, gimmicky battle modes just don't seem to be popular enough to warrant a large developmental investment.

I'd love to see that, but I can't help but feel like a lot of Sw/Sh's elements seem to follow from Masuda's explanation for why the Battle Frontier wasn't in ORAS:
"Put simply, the Battle Frontier wasn't included because only a tiny number of players would have appreciated and used this game feature. Players get fed up more easily than they did in the past and aren't attracted by these 'demanding' challenges."

Sw/Sh is very easy and you can rocket right through the main story and dungeon and route design are both very simple. The post-game is very heavily multiplayer focused and even the Battle Tower is much easier than in the past. It seems to me they don't want to spend too much time and resources on challenging single player content.

I’d personally be fine if they added those challenges to multiplayer instead. However, the most variety they seem to have for online competitions are mainly things like "this is banned" and "you can only use Pokémon from the ____ Pokédex." What about something like "Trick Room Madness" where the entire battle takes place in a permanent Trick Room? Or maybe bring back the Light and Heavy Cups from Gen 4? I just wish Online Competitions had a bit more variety to them, something to make players think.

 

[PinkThunder]

Well it's pretty obvious that it's gonna be a remake for 2021 or 2022 right?

 

[Boss1708]

Commercial succes doesn't necessarily mean a franchise is good.

It doesn't mean a franchise is "not good", either. I feel like you are just projecting your own subjective feelings on Sw/Sh.

PvP content is fine, but challenging PvE content is severely lacking.

I disagree that it's lacking. SwSh has more PvE than most games before it.

Unless you are speaking about the base game, and completely disregarding the 2 Expansion Passes.

 

[Bolt Strike]

Also as far as the Battle Frontier, the main thing that I want from it that the newer games aren't providing are the unique battle styles. The Battle Frontier got a bit more creative in terms of the rules with things like using rental Pokemon, having Pokemon battle by themselves based on nature, wandering through treacherous areas that could afflict you with random debuffs, and so on. Maybe those in particular aren't the best ideas and they should be a little bit smarter about which styles they choose to implement going forward, but the newer games are definitely missing that level of creativity in the battle facilities, we just get Battle Tower clones for the most part which if anything, that's the most pointless and replaceable by competitive PvP.

I'd rather have what we got than another Friend Safari (a little area to ride your bike around it). PokeNav and Mirage Spots/Soaring accomplishes pretty much the same thing as a Friend Safari and more, but in a way that's much less complicated and way more fun. I'm not really a fan of adding a bunch of strangers to my friend list just to unlock access to three completely random pokemon. Plus, I like riding my Arco bike on the rails.

Edit: I think Diamond/Pearl's safari zone will likely get a similar treatment of being turned into a normal route.

Who said anything about making it a small patch of grass with three Pokemon? They can implement the friend list feature in a way that allows the Pokemon to populate a larger area. And while the Mirage Spots are an improvement over Friend Safari in terms of exploration, they're a step down from regular Safari Zones. They're tiny little areas that take all of 1 minute to fully explore, full Safari Zone areas have much more to discover.

 

[BackSet]

I don't like Safari Zones. I shouldn't have to pay in game to discover Pokemon. Nor should I have to carefully calculate how many steps I should take in what direction to cover the maximum amount of ground. It's dumb.

 

[Boss1708]

I think SwSh is the best attempt Game Freak has made at interesting Battle Facilities since Pokemon Emerald.

Yes, we had the Gen IV Battle Frontier and the PWT in Gen V, and the Battle Royal and Battle Agency in Gen VII. But none of them are nearly as interesting and unique as the 2 new Battle Facilities in Gen VIII: Restricted Sparring and Dynamax Adventures.

 

[AngryBinacle]

I think SwSh is the best attempt Game Freak has made at interesting Battle Facilities since Pokemon Emerald.

Yes, we had the Gen IV Battle Frontier and the PWT in Gen V, and the Battle Royal and Battle Agency in Gen VII. But none of them are nearly as interesting and unique as the 2 new Battle Facilities in Gen VIII: Restricted Sparring and Dynamax Adventures.

I completely disagree. Dmax adventures are a total slog; there's no excitement whatsoever. And no, I wasn't only looking at the basegame: SwSh does lack in challenging PvE content. It's all-around easy.

The Frontier was definitely different, in that regard.

 

[Boss1708]

I completely disagree. Dmax adventures are a total slog; there's no excitement whatsoever. And no, I wasn't only looking at the basegame: SwSh does lack in challenging PvE content. It's all-around easy.

The Frontier was definitely different, in that regard.

I absolutely disagree. I can't say it any more straightforward than that LOL. This only proves your opinion is totally subjective (and so is every opinion, in general).

What is factual is that Restricted Sparring is one of the most challenging facilities we've ever had, and you seem to intentionally avoid talking about it. It's the most challenging facilitiy since the Battle Pyramid in Emerald.

 

[Minya_Nouvelle]

The Frontier was definitely different, in that regard.

I'm not really sure why you think that. From my experience the Frontier wasn't challenging; it was the on that was a slog. I would train up the best teams possible, get a semi high streak (40 -60) and still lose. What's challenging about having to win 100 battles in a row without losing a single one? Sometimes, I would get to like 98 and lose right near the end. It felt so luck based.

In gen IV; I used a team of hacked pokemon (Slaking, Azelf and a third I can't remember) with Huge Power to try and beat the Battle Tower. Want to know what happened? Every opponent had a pokemon with Focus Band and Focus Band would activate like 5 times in a row every time. Unless you can tell me that they built anti-cheating measures into gen IV; I'm pretty sure the AI cheats hard.

Restricted Sparring on the other hand is way more challenging, imo. In total, its still about 100 battles, but you have to train a bunch of different teams and you have to know about each types weaknesses and build teams to compensate for those weaknesses instead of trying to make 1 team to do everything.

 

[Poke Dragon]

To be honest, I actually prefer the Battle Tower since previous battle facilities felt too much of a chore to go through the same amount of battles just to get to where you were. While they were good for their times, I prefer not to start all over again due to an NPC having Pokemon I wasn't prepared to face.

 

[Phosphene]

Re: The Safari Zone

I honestly don't mind the Safari Zone as much as other people here do, and I was disappointed when the Hoenn Safari Zone basically became another route. Likewise, I'd be a bit saddened to see the Great Marsh go the same way. That being said, I do have my grievances with Safari Zones in general, and would like to see some major alterations to them.

If I were the one redesigning the Great Marsh (wishlist incoming)...

• I'd change the mechanic to regular catching and battling rather than the GO-like setup from before. Having Pokémon be able to run away from you, wasting all your effort, is rather frustrating and annoying. I'd still keep bait and mud, however. Bait could be purchased at a shop in the entrance building, and would function like an inverse-repel. There would be multiple stackable varieties, such as high-level bait, shiny bait, and X-type bait, that are unlocked as the story progresses or certain milestones are met (ex: the shiny bait is unlocked once you obtain the shiny charm). These baits would only work in the Great Marsh/Safari Zone, however, to prevent exploitation elsewhere. As for mud, rather than the trainer hurl mud, you can order your Pokémon to kick up mud. This would increase the opposing Pokémon's catchrate, but also raise their attack and special attack.
• Safari Balls can be purchased at the entrance as well, with either individual selection or 5, 15, and 30 Pokéball bundles.
• It no longer costs money to enter the Great Marsh. However, if you don't have any Pokéballs, you are barred from entering; you are given the option to purchase Safari Balls, however.
• You have unlimited time in the Great Marsh--no step counters.
• The Marsh would be divided into several zones with varying biomes--it's now a little bit more than a marsh.
• As the story progresses, higher level Pokémon start appearing.
• The largest change, however, would be what Pokémon you encounter. One of my biggest grievances with the Safari Zones is that they never really felt exotic enough. Pre-postgame, all of the available Pokémon are in the regional Pokédex. Not only that, it got boring seeing the same Pokémon over and over again. To remedy this, I would add two encounter tables that change weekly.
  • The first encounter table would be a randomized selection of Pokémon in the regional Pokédex, including opposite version exclusive Pokémon and Pokémon that are labeled area unknown, such as Riolu.
  • The second encounter table would also be a randomized selection, however, it would be larger and would consist exclusively of Pokémon not in the regional Pokédex, such as Grubbin or Heatmor.

This only proves your opinion is totally subjective

I find it funny that you're putting AngryBinacle on blast for being subjective, and yet you don't seem as critical of your own subjectiveness, even touting one of your opinions as factual.

 

[SlowGinFizzzz]

Remakes should always include ALL of the content that the original game(s) had, plus obviously new content and improvements – on top of that, not instead. Remakes should be the best version of a game that there is, that's just logical.

OR/AS were fantastic in the "new content" area, I absolutely loved the new DexNav, soaring, the Delta Episode, the integration of Mega Evolution etc. But there's no reason why the Battle Frontier wasn't included, why all of Emerald's new locations were completely ignored, why I wasn't able to catch both Groudon and Kyogre in one game. It's just frustrating that there's no "definitive" Hoenn game – you have to choose between Emerald and OR/AS, and both have certain shortcomings. It would have been so easy to just take Emerald as the basis and add all the new features and thus create a close-to-perfect game that would still be enjoyable years from now.

And what's even more frustrating about this is that we know they'd be capable of it! They demonstrated that with HG/SS. It just sucks to watch Game Freak/TPC slowly destroy the legacy of this once so great series, and I hate to say that I'm rather pessimistic about the Sinnoh remakes.

 

[Boss1708]

I find it funny that you're putting AngryBinacle on blast for being subjective, and yet you don't seem as critical of your own subjectiveness, even touting one of your opinions as factual.

You should read my post again. I said all opinions are subjective. This includes my opinions too.

After that, I stated a fact (not an opinion!): Restricted Sparring is OBJECTIVELY hard, because you only heal twice between the first 6 battles.

 

[swiftgallade46]

After that, I stated a fact (not an opinion!): Restricted Sparring is OBJECTIVELY harder because you only heal twice between the first 6 battles.

Objectively harder than what? I’ve personally had much more trouble with some of the Battle Fromtier facilities than with Restricted Sparring.