Greninja vs Infernape vs Charizard whose base form is stronger?

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

As of JN Episode 108 the frog appears to have gotten stronger,Lucario had to use Mega Evolution while Greninja wasn't even using Battle Bond.When Infernape returned it went through a gauntlet of Ash's fire types on Professor Oak's Ranch.

It's not confirmed if Infernape defeated Charizard 1 on 1 but considering that it went on to face another fire type (Moltres) could imply that Infernape was the one who came out the victor.Then lastly you have Charizard who was able to outlast an Articuno in late AG.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Sceptile>Charizard>Ash-Greninja>Blaze Infernape>Greninja>Infernape

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Sceptile>Charizard>Ash-Greninja>Blaze Infernape>Greninja>Infernape

Explain yourself

 

[MimeyTheKeeper]

Throwing some big stuff here, aren't we?

Personally, I think there is no canonical answer and it would be better for Anime never give one. In regards to this "holy trinity" of Ash's Aces, the only reasonable answer is they are roughly the same. Because fans will continue to debate it regardless, till the end of time. And for such debates, it is best to leave the most to imagination.

Some remarks though:

• These guys have some advantages/disadvantages to each other, so it is quite different question whether someone is stronger per se, or against other two
• I did not find "canonical" interpretation of Charizard/Infernape fight - and to continue some religion-inspired talk, I considered it blasphemy they only told us about this match and we never got to see it - guys on YouTube were treating it like Infernape looking for stronger and stronger opponent and then explaining it to fellow fire types and Chief of Staff Bulbasaur. But that is only from Oak's perspective, isn't it? What if that was discussed between Pokémon and they were specifically training and helping Infernape? Especially since in Charizard - Infernape matchup, Charizard has advantage and Infernape was eyeing Moltres who is also fire/flying
• They are quite similar in nature, so I think they are all training about the same, maybe Charizard less so now, but it is hard to tell
• Charizard also remains last of those three not having moves called by Ash again in Journeys yet (since Infernape and Greninja were in their respective episodes)
• I have expressed my worries, that someone in Journeys production does not like Infernape very much, because even Flint's Infernape seemed to be downgraded little bit in terms of performance. On the other hand Greninja's speed was obviously boosted as we saw. Previously I would bet Infernape and Greninja could go toe to toe in agility, but Journeys has some work to do on that field.
• And last one - obviously it is hard to ignore how Infernape and Greninja are very much about their power-up forms and Charizard is simply not. They were aces in different times and Infernape and Greninja were designed and written to stand up to Charizard or even surpass him. Like newer models of cars.

In the end, I would like for all three to have their parting matches in Journeys and help Ash achieve the TOP. Each of their respective arcs could sustain one really big win. But I would not like to compare them, each to their own.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Throwing some big stuff here, aren't we?

Personally, I think there is no canonical answer and it would be better for Anime never give one. In regards to this "holy trinity" of Ash's Aces,the only reasonable answer is they are roughly the same.

If we're going strictly with a tier system then yeah they're around the same level at least for their base.

• They are quite similar in nature, so I think they are all training about the same, maybe Charizard less so now, but it is hard to tell

Charizard was going through nonstop training at Charicific Valley but the writers put a stop to that in late BW so it's limited to whatever is available at Oak's Ranch.

• And last one - obviously it is hard to ignore how Infernape and Greninja are very much about their power-up forms and Charizard is simply not.

This was the biggest reason why I had Charizard over both of them.

 

[Max1996]

I really don't think Charizard is a valid option here. Not only do we have no way to compare it to Greninja or Infernape, but it never got anything beyond a 'base form', like Greninja and Infernape did.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

I really don't think Charizard is a valid option here. Not only do we have no way to compare it to Greninja or Infernape, but it never got anything beyond a 'base form', like Greninja and Infernape did.

I'm inclined to believe that Charizard using any of the powerups (Blaze/Bond Phenomenon/Gigantamax/Z-Move/Mega Evolution) would've had a higher ceiling due to it's feats in OS-AG and the special training from Charicific Valley.

 

[nickdt]

Pikachu > Charizard > Blaze Infernape > Ash-Greninja > Infernape> A whole lot of Pokemon in between (Snorlax, Talonflame, Glalie, Krookodile, Sceptile) > Greninja

Here is the reasoning.

Charizard has fought higher tier mons, like legendaries and the like in base form.
Infernape has fought high tier mons, but didn't need to active blaze all the time to shine
Ash-Greninja: Greninja basically needs this form to shine, since in terms of feats, both Talonflame and Hawlucha outclass base Greninja in terms of raw power.

Greninja is mid-tier without its form, since all Pokemon above it, have better feats against higher tier mons. Those mons include Snorlax, Talonflame. Hawlucha, Sceptile, Glalie and Krookodile, and you can even make the argument for Tauros, Squirtle and Bulbasaur as well.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Pikachu > Charizard > Blaze Infernape > Ash-Greninja > Infernape> A whole lot of Pokemon in between (Snorlax, Talonflame, Glalie, Krookodile, Sceptile) > Greninja

Here is the reasoning.

Charizard has fought higher tier mons, like legendaries and the like in base form.
Infernape has fought high tier mons, but didn't need to active blaze all the time to shine
Ash-Greninja: Greninja basically needs this form to shine, since in terms of feats, both Talonflame and Hawlucha outclass base Greninja in terms of raw power.

Greninja is mid-tier without its form, since all Pokemon above it, have better feats against higher tier mons. Those mons include Snorlax, Talonflame. Hawlucha, Sceptile, Glalie and Krookodile, and you can even make the argument for Tauros, Squirtle and Bulbasaur as well.

Feats for Base Pikachu post XY?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre Sun & Moon

Greninja (Battle Bond) > Charizard (BW) = Pikachu (XY) = Infernape (Blaze) > Sceptile (Overgrow) > Infernape = Sceptile > Snorlax > Greninja

 

[Gengarzilla]

Charizard, every time, without any doubt or question. This Pokémon has pulled off stuff in its base state that Infernape and Greninja could never hope to match without their boosts. Ash's Charizard did not need to call upon Blaze or any other such powerups to defeat a Legendary Pokémon, meanwhile those two have been explicitly reliant on these "super modes" for all their greatest feats.

Those who don't need the help of such tricks will, in my eyes, always beat those who do.

 

[infernapefan392]

Sceptile>Charizard>Ash-Greninja>Blaze Infernape>Greninja>Infernape

I really think infernape demolishes sceptile, could easily Ohko charizard with rock Tomb, and Mach Punch plus close Combat greninja

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Sceptile had HELP,it was a GROUP EFFORT taking down that Darkrai. Dream Eater recovers a pokemon's health but not ALL of it, plus it did not use Dream Eater after it took damage from Gible's Rock Smash. With no BS involved if Ash were to bring out Charizard as his first pokemon vs Tobias's Darkrai it should be able to defeat it after waking up from Dream Eater.

 

[Turbo]

This is without me watching that episode since it came out
But I thought it was implied Infernape didn't beat Charizard, showing that Charizard was stronger
I could be wrong but I'm going with that logic as I also always thought Charizard was stronger than Infernape anyway

And the Greninja in JN stuff is weird because of the potential Ash-Greninja retcon
As the way that's interpreted changes a lot

Assuming Ash-Greninja isn't retconned:

It comes down to Charizard vs Greninja

I think narratively they're on equal levels as they are the only two of Ash’s ace Pokemon that was used over Pikachu (I know I didn't word that right but hope it makes sense)

I would personally given Charizard the edge because it just has better feats imo as Greninja’s best feats are with Ash-Greninja

Then with Infernape vs Greninja, it's similar that Greninja best feats are with Ash-Greninja, and can say that even if pure base Greninja is stronger, the blaze boost might give it the edge

If Ash-Greninja was retconned:

Then to me they're saying that all the feats Ash-Greninja had were really base Greninja
So vs Alain Sawyer Diantha etc were base Greninja

(Which could change how its viewed to Lucario as it would mean Mega Lucario matched Ash-Greninja in this hypothetical)

So then I would give the edge to Greninja as, impressive as Charizard feats are, I think the case of who’s feats were better become more comparable and plus if you believe XY characters were that much stronger and etc then I would give it to Greninja

So if Ash Greninja isn't retconned
Charizard>Blaze Infernape>Greninja>Infernape

If Ash-Greninja is retconned
Greninja>Charizard>Infernape

Bonus

• I think Sceptile>no Blaze Infernape
• Lycanroc and Incineroar = Sceptile
• Krookodile below them because of less feats
• Lucario's base (aura sync included) is around that of Charizard and Greninja level and Mega makes it the second strongest Pokemon after Pikachu

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Infernape was struggling against Volkner's Luxray and needed Blaze to secure the W. It went through Paul's Ninjask & Aggron but couldn't defeat big bad Electivire without Electivire stopping the referee Blaze activating.

Greninja used Battle Bond multiple times. Didn't it struggle in it's base form against Sawyer's Sceptile prior to the league?

Charizard already pulled off all of these feats way back in OS, then took it a step further by outlasting a legendary pokemon in late AG.

It was never stated that Infernape defeated Charizard but some would say it did because it went on to battle that Moltres.

Also that same Moltres is either on the same level as that Articuno that Charizard battled back during the Battle Frontier or it's stronger since Infernape,Pikachu and Blastoise all struggled.