Have Battles Lost Their Touch?

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Pokemon battles have always been a massive part of the franchise. From day one, we've watched Ash on his journey to become a Pokemon Master, battling his way through all sorts of powerful trainers. Battles in the anime frequently differ from the games, with the ability to dodge being used more frequently and the ability use moves in creative ways the games don't allow, such as using a counter shield or freezing Aqua Jet to use as an attack. Recently, there's been many complaints about battles in Journeys, with some being way too static, lacking dynamic movement or creative uses of moves. We've seen dynamic battles like Ash's battle with Paul or Sawyer to the turn based static battle Lance and Diantha had in JN 116. Have battles in the anime lost their touch?

 

[Sai]

It's most likely the lack of 3D camera/animation from XY that raised the budget for battles that people miss, and some of SM's battles were really well animated like that too.

The way the writers actually write the battles themselves are largely the same as they've ever been, but the extra budget/dynamic camera angles that we saw in the last two gens aren't there anymore.

 

[Handy Man]

I think another aspect is that the stakes are much higher for battles in Journeys. Ash is fighting Elite Four and Champion level trainers for the first time in the show’s history, and on top of that, he manages to beat them on his first try. The fact that Ash is miraculously strong enough to go toe-to-toe with characters that had power creep in earlier series, with Ash’s brand new team nonetheless, is just a bit hard to believe in my opinion. Not only does Ash have to beat stronger trainers than any others he’s faced before, the writers have to make it look believable. It’s just hard for me to believe Ash beating Cynthia when Cynthia’s Garchomp bodied four of Paul’s Pokémon back in DP, or how Iris had her Dragonite tank Beartic and Mamoswine’s Ice attacks in BW, yet falls to a Dracovish’s first ever battle and gets one-shotted by Ice Fang. The battles in Journeys have just not been believable in my opinion, and that lack of suspension of disbelief hurts the battles for me. Earlier series never really had this problem, because Ash’s most frequent opponents would either be his rivals, Gym Leaders, or league opponents.

 

[Sai]

Garchomp bodied four of Paul’s Pokémon back in DP

As I mentioned in the other thread, that was 2007 era Paul in the beginning of DP. Ash and Paul back then were just starting their 4th regions and while experienced, were not all that strong yet. Paul never won a league either at that time. There's a big difference between the beginning of DP and now. I think JN era Paul for example would do really well against Cynthia.

, or how Iris had her Dragonite tank Beartic and Mamoswine’s Ice attacks in BW, yet falls to a Dracovish’s first ever battle and gets one-shotted by Ice Fang.

Back in BW, Iris' Dragonite resisting ice attacks was really disliked since it had no explanation, it's one of the main reasons Dawn's Mamoswine losing there was poorly received. Now it takes realistic ice damage, and Dracovish strong jaw as a first move increases its attack along with 4x ice damage.

JN does have some battles that are pretty bad as a whole with Drasna being the biggest offender, but most of the others are written similar to how they've always been.

 

[Handy Man]

As I mentioned in the other thread, that was 2007 era Paul in the beginning of DP. Ash and Paul back then were just starting their 4th regions and while experienced, were not all that strong yet. Paul never won a league either at that time. There's a big difference between the beginning of DP and now. I think JN era Paul for example would do really well against Cynthia.



Back in BW, Iris' Dragonite resisting ice attacks was really disliked since it had no explanation, it's one of the main reasons Dawn's Mamoswine losing there was poorly received. Now it takes realistic ice damage, and Dracovish strong jaw as a first move increases its attack along with 4x ice damage.

JN does have some battles that are pretty bad as a whole with Drasna being the biggest offender, but most of the others are written similar to how they've always been.

Sirfetch’d and Lucario are relatively brand new Pokémon, compared to Cynthia’s Garchomp, who she has assumedly owned longer than Ash’s Pikachu. This is what I mean by Ash’s brand new team somehow being strong enough to take on Elite Four and Champion level trainers. It’s not helped by the fact that we almost never saw his Journeys team train on-screen regularly until JN109, plus the fact that Lucario only Mega Evolved in battle against Bea and Cynthia, making it hard to know their true strength. As for Iris’s Dragonite, she has used it for up to three generations by the time we see it again in Journeys. At that point, she has used Dragonite as long as Ash had traveled from Kanto to Sinnoh. Dragonite would have got stronger over that span of time, so for it to fall to a brand new Pokémon that had never battled before in one hit is just embarrassing. Sure, it tanking all of those Ice attacks in the Junior Cup is frustrating, I agree. But I would argue that Dragonite serving as a jobber to a brand new battler both undermines it, as well as Iris’s strength as a trainer, in my opinion.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Sirfetch’d and Lucario are relatively brand new Pokémon, compared to Cynthia’s Garchomp, who she has assumedly owned longer than Ash’s Pikachu. This is what I mean by Ash’s brand new team somehow being strong enough to take on Elite Four and Champion level trainers.

I honestly won't hold it against them because in the games, we literally just become new trainers ourselves and defeat the Champion at the end of every game. But they really should have shown his team training more than they did.

Also I don't think its just the lack of the dynamic camera and such. It feels as if battles have been too static at times, with Pokemon standing around, attacking and taking hits with very little dodging or creative counters. They still pop up, like we saw stuff like the Pikachu using the Counter Shield or Lucario using Bullet Punch to counter Scale Shot. It just doesn't feel as frequent.

 

[Sai]

Also the show is on a floating timeline. Ash is still 10 despite going through Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh, Unova, Kalos, Alola and Journey's.

Realistically Ash doing on all these regions he wouldn't still be 10, but since the show is on a floating timeline you just have to accept it. Same with Ash having "new captures."

At that point, she has used Dragonite as long as Ash had traveled from Kanto to Sinnoh. Dragonite would have got stronger over that span of time, so for it to fall to a brand new Pokémon that had never battled before in one hit is just embarrassing. Sure, it tanking all of those Ice attacks in the Junior Cup is frustrating, I agree. But I would argue that Dragonite serving as a jobber to a brand new battler both undermines it, as well as Iris’s strength as a trainer, in my opinion.

Dracovish in general is treated more like a rare/unique pokemon in the anime since it's a "Frakenstein" pokemon. As far as we know Ash's Dracovish is the only one in the world that exists at the moment. Strong Jaw ability (confirmed in the Steven episode), couples with 4x ice fang and then slamming Dragonite to the ground should be enough to do it in. Yes Dragonite is more experience, but this is the type of stuff the anime makes more sense on since levels don't exist. Also look at how easily Iris defeated Dracovish with Haxorus when she saw it was a threat, and how quick it lost in Steven's episode.

I mean I was one of those people who wanted reserves when we were halfway into this series, I was actually debating with people Ash should bring back old Pokemon. But a lot of people told me no, so...here we are. People told me, "Ash's new pokemon should get the spotlight" and here we are. It is what it is.

 

[Hidden Mew]

As I mentioned in the other thread, that was 2007 era Paul in the beginning of DP. Ash and Paul back then were just starting their 4th regions and while experienced, were not all that strong yet. Paul never won a league either at that time. There's a big difference between the beginning of DP and now. I think JN era Paul for example would do really well against Cynthia.

Aside from Chimchar, I'm pretty sure that the Pokemon Paul used during his battle with Cynthia were used through multiple regions and thus had plenty of experience, which is more than I can say about Ash's Journeys team and he still manage to defeat Cynthia. There is a difference between DP and now for Ash, but it feels less like he wasn't strong enough back then and more like he didn't have the plot armor that he has now.

Back in BW, Iris' Dragonite resisting ice attacks was really disliked since it had no explanation, it's one of the main reasons Dawn's Mamoswine losing there was poorly received. Now it takes realistic ice damage, and Dracovish strong jaw as a first move increases its attack along with 4x ice damage.

JN does have some battles that are pretty bad as a whole with Drasna being the biggest offender, but most of the others are written similar to how they've always been.

I think Dracovish defeating Dragonite like it did would have been a lot more believable if that wasn't its first battle. Yeah, it has the Strong Jaw ability and Dragonite is already four times weak to ice, but at the same time, it should have had plenty of off-screen experience. I still hate that Iris is a Champion in the anime, but by that logic, it shouldn't go down so easily, even if she is the least experienced out of the regional Champions.

I honestly won't hold it against them because in the games, we literally just become new trainers ourselves and defeat the Champion at the end of every game. But they really should have shown his team training more than they did.

While it's true players start out on their journey and defeat the Champion at the end of the games, I don't think that's a fitting comparison with the anime. Those are video games, so of course the players get to defeat the Champion at the end. The anime have always handled Champions differently though. Up until Journeys, they've been presented as powerful trainers that were well above what regular trainers could reach. Now after multiple series of hyping up Champions like that, Ash is now able to defeat at least three with his current team. Maybe if they didn't hype up Champions like Cynthia as much as they did, this change wouldn't be such an issue, but it does feel rather jarring. It feels like they just really wanted to make Ash look a lot stronger, regardless of whether or not it fits with how they've established Champion level trainers in the past.

I mean I was one of those people who wanted reserves when we were halfway into this series, I was actually debating with people Ash should bring back old Pokemon. But a lot of people told me no, so...here we are. People told me, "Ash's new pokemon should get the spotlight" and here we are. It is what it is.

The solution should have been to give Ash's new Pokemon more consistent on-screen training to make these kind of victories more believable/earned. Bringing in his reserves would have helped with that issue too, but to me, it was clear that wasn't going to happen at least by the time the Hyper Class matches started, if not sooner. With that in mind, they should have done more on-screen training with Ash's current team. It would have fleshed out his Pokemon's personalities, given them more chances to showcase the bond he has with this new team and made the huge victories feel more believable even with their minimal amount of experience.

I can't really judge the Master Class battles yet, but I do think that there are a couple of issues with the battles in Journeys. I feel like at least the first half of the tournament was a bit too fast paced. Not just with the one shot battles, but even in some other matches like Ash vs. Iris. It's one of the reasons why I think the pacing is one of the root problems of Journeys. From what I've seen of the Hyper Classes, the matches are better paced, but I don't know if that continues into future matches.

There's also the lack of emotional investment into Ash's team. Because their screentime has been mainly on the battlefield, it's hard to get invested in them and show Ash's bond with his Pokemon. That isn't to say that there aren't any believable bonds with his Journeys team, but it's just a lot more minimal than it should be. Ash getting Lucario a Mega Stone is a perfect example. A connection is there, but because they had to rely on a lot of flashbacks/dialogue to say that they have a bond, it felt a lot more shallow than it should be. Giving time for Ash and his Pokemon to interact with each other would have given them more fleshed out personalities and possibly made the audience feel more invested. Fans might like some aspect of these Pokemon, but the lack of screentime and focus for Ash's Pokemon has been one of the biggest complaints in Journeys from the start.

 

[Daren]

Honestly, when it comes to the plausibility issues I place the primary blame on DP's decision to radically escalate the power of Elite Four tier trainers. The nature of the show where Ash started fresh each series meant it was basically impossible after that for him to plausibly get on that level after we saw Ash getting swept as late as the eighth Gym.
Considering Alain beat Malva then didn't sweep Ash it seems they realized that was an issue later on and dialed it back even before JN.

 

[Vengeful Ghost]

Besides fight choreography, the primary reason battles have lost their touch to me is the poor narrative around them. Fights only serve the narrative. They lose their impact if the narrative around the fight is lost.

It’s probably why Ash vs. Cameron is held in such low regard while Ash vs. Tobias is held in a much higher regard. Cameron was an idiot through and through which made the fight bad since the framing around the fight was more him bumbling around the stadium. Meanwhile, Tobias was Diabolus ex Machina, but his fight felt like an actual challenge from a serious competitor because he is built up (in as little screen time as he has) to be an invincible threat.

The problem with Journeys as a whole is that it does poorly is that it lacks what makes a tournament arc fun and exciting. We don’t have a colorful cast of characters with unique personalities like we see in other tournament arcs. Instead, we get a collection of one shots and fan service characters who aren’t built up that well.

Animation will age, the old series certainly have, but if you’re invested in the story around them, they will be eternal.

 

[Sai]

Aside from Chimchar, I'm pretty sure that the Pokemon Paul used during his battle with Cynthia were used through multiple regions and thus had plenty of experience, which is more than I can say about Ash's Journeys team and he still manage to defeat Cynthia. There is a difference between DP and now for Ash, but it feels less like he wasn't strong enough back then and more like he didn't have the plot armor that he has now.

The beginning of DP is still a long time ago, I know after BW and such the progression for Ash has felt shaky, but even during the early DP era they were experienced but not too strong. There's also a difference between early DP and late DP, so late DP Paul would have likely fared better against Cynthia is he rematched her. People bringing up this fight feels odd to me since it was so long ago and Paul only had 3 regions under his belt at the time and had never won a league.

I think Dracovish defeating Dragonite like it did would have been a lot more believable if that wasn't its first battle. Yeah, it has the Strong Jaw ability and Dragonite is already four times weak to ice, but at the same time, it should have had plenty of off-screen experience. I still hate that Iris is a Champion in the anime, but by that logic, it shouldn't go down so easily, even if she is the least experienced out of the regional Champions.

It definitely should have had a training ep prior, but that's all.

The problem with Journeys as a whole is that it does poorly is that it lacks what makes a tournament arc fun and exciting. We don’t have a colorful cast of characters with unique personalities like we see in other tournament arcs. Instead, we get a collection of one shots and fan service characters who aren’t built up that well.

I don't know about that, past leagues were always filled with bland characters. Richie, Harrison/Tyson, Tobias, Virgil, Cameron, even trevor/tierno, most of these characters don't have any real or memorable personalities and their dynamics with Ash were always bland. Outside of maybe the Sinnoh league, most other leagues are filled with COTD's or one-off characters we don't really care about until Ash gets to his main rival.

The only reason people even remember those league rivals is because Ash loses to them, not that any of them are particularly interesting. Hell if I were to try and describe Harrison's personality from the Johto league...I literally can't, he didn't have any. Same for most of the others.

 

[Hidden Mew]

The beginning of DP is still a long time ago, I know after BW and such the progression for Ash has felt shaky, but even during the early DP era they were experienced but not too strong. There's also a difference between early DP and late DP, so late DP Paul would have likely fared better against Cynthia is he rematched her. People bringing up this fight feels odd to me since it was so long ago and Paul only had 3 regions under his belt at the time and had never won a league.

It was a long time ago for us, but how long ago it was for Ash seems a bit questionable considering time in the anime makes no sense. People bringing up Cynthia vs. Paul makes sense when it firmly showed how powerful Champions were compared to regular trainers. Traveling through three regions and taking part in multiple Pokemon Leagues isn't nothing, especially when Paul was established as a strong trainer right away. The fact that he didn't win a League feels kind of moot. It doesn't mean that Paul is weak. He still defeated multiple Gym Leaders and I assume did well in those Leagues if the Sinnoh League was any indication. It didn't make him an unbeatable trainer, but I wouldn't write off three regions as just being more experienced either.

 

[Sai]

Early DP-era Paul was definitely not strong enough to rival champions, that's the reason Garchomp felt strong back then. We've seen Cynthia's Garchomp taken beatings from Caitlin in BW in the exhibition match in the Junior Cup, and in the Meoletta/Genie arc, the Genie's literally throw her Garchomp around like a ragdoll into the ground multiple times. Look at the picture I attached too from BW from Caitlin's battle.

A lot of this is based on when the trainers were earlier in their journey's. If this was JN era Paul, I think he'd do very well against Cynthia or maybe even beat her, who knows.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Early DP-era Paul was definitely not strong enough to rival champions, that's the reason Garchomp felt strong back then. We've seen Cynthia's Garchomp taken beatings from Caitlin in BW in the exhibition match in the Junior Cup, and in the Meoletta/Genie arc, the Genie's literally throw her Garchomp around like a ragdoll into the ground multiple times. Look at the picture I attached too from BW from Caitlin's battle.

A lot of this is based on when the trainers were earlier in their journey's. If this was JN era Paul, I think he'd do very well against Cynthia or maybe even beat her, who knows.

My point is that early DP Paul wasn't weak. He wasn't uber strong, but I wouldn't write off traveling through three regions and taking part in three Pokemon Leagues as just being more experienced. I don't think that's the reason Garchomp felt strong back then either. It was because they put Cynthia and her Pokemon on a pedestal. The fact that Elite 4 trainers and Legendary Pokemon were the only ones to put more of a dent in Garchomp doesn't make it weaker than we thought either. If anything, that should emphasize its strength and power.

 

[Johtoo]

I think it's a mixture of budget and animation problems. It's quite interesting that XY debuted in 2013, yet it has already aged better than journeys and sun and moon (animation wise). I know Sun and Moon's art style was a deliberate choice, but it went against the norms of the anime and i guess other animated shows in general, and it won't be looked kindly in the future. Journeys seems to be a mixture of XY and Sun and Moon, however, it retains neither the high quality style of XY, or the unique charm of Sun and Moon and it just comes off cheap. It'll be interesting to see how the next anime iteration handles its battles, because art style usually does dictate the quality of battles.

 

[Sai]

My point is that early DP Paul wasn't weak. He wasn't uber strong, but I wouldn't write off traveling through three regions and taking part in three Pokemon Leagues as just being more experienced. I don't think that's the reason Garchomp felt strong back then either. It was because they put Cynthia and her Pokemon on a pedestal. The fact that Elite 4 trainers and Legendary Pokemon were the only ones to put more of a dent in Garchomp doesn't make it weaker than we thought either. If anything, that should emphasize its strength and power.

Early DP Paul was still a developing trainer though, he only seemed stronger at the time because the show was still relatively young and we only had 2 series (OS and AG) before it. Remember Paul never won a league either. He lost the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn leagues before we met him. We also know he never battled the Frontier Brains in full like Ash.

I'm honestly surprised we're using an ep that aired in 2007, the first year of DP, to say Garchomp should always be unbeatable. She was battling a trainer who was still developing, of course she's going to beat his entire team. If this was late-DP Paul right before the Sinnoh league, he'd likely put up a better fight.

Caitlin caused serious damage to Cynthia and she was an Elite 4. It's pretty obvious there's a difference between trainers still developing and ones in higher rank/prestige.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Early DP Paul was still a developing trainer though, he only seemed stronger at the time because the show was still relatively young and we only had 2 series (OS and AG) before it. Remember Paul never won a league either. He lost the Kanto/Johto/Hoenn leagues before we met him. We also know he never battled the Frontier Brains in full like Ash.

I wouldn't describe the anime as being relatively young at the time. It had been going on for roughly ten years at the time the episode aired with two series that had run for over a hundred episodes. That isn't exactly young for any show. I know that Paul never won a League. I brought that up multiple times, but I think that is irrelevant to my point. I would not describe going through multiple regions and Pokemon Leagues as just being more experienced. Yes, he was still developing as a trainer, but most of the Pokemon he used in that battle had more than one region of experience. Paul didn't seem stronger. He was shown to be a powerful trainer right from the start. I wouldn't dismiss all of that just because it was early DP or because he hadn't won a Pokemon League. His battles with Ash and especially his battle against Roark showed his skills and that he was a strong trainer.

I'm honestly surprised we're using an ep that aired in 2007, the first year of DP, to say Garchomp should always be unbeatable. She was battling a trainer who was still developing, of course she's going to beat his entire team. If this was late-DP Paul right before the Sinnoh league, he'd likely put up a better fight.

Caitlin caused serious damage to Cynthia and she was an Elite 4. It's pretty obvious there's a difference between trainers still developing and ones in higher rank/prestige.

To be clear, I'm not saying that Garchomp should always be unbeatable because of that one battle. Do not put words in my mouth. I am saying that because of moments like that, it does make it more jarring for Ash with his current team that has less experience under their belt to defeat Cynthia. Yes, there is a difference between early DP Paul and Journeys Ash, but like I mentioned before, it feels more like Ash just has more plot armor to defeat these Champions as opposed to either Champions not being actually that strong or Ash wasn't strong enough before, especially when his Journeys team has such a serious lack of screentime and on-screen training. I also still wouldn't brush off early DP Paul as just being more experienced.

The problem isn't just with Cynthia's Garchomp either. While DP arguably hyped up its Elite 4 and Champion the most, this wasn't exclusive to that series either. The anime had always hyped up Elite 4 and Champions as being really strong, well above the strength of Ash and other regular trainers. It wasn't just in their battles, but just how the anime presented them in general. Having Ash defeat Champions is arguably more fitting with the games in mind since they exist to be effectively the final boss of the main storyline, but at the same time, it feels too jarring with how the anime has presented them for years. It isn't necessarily a bad decision, but it just feels a bit off to me. Maybe Ash's Journeys team being handled better would have helped.

 

[Sai]

It definitely was early into the animes history now in retrospect. Neither Paul (nor Ash) were league winners at that point. Very early DP era Ash and Paul would not be a challenge to Cynthia. So I don't see the point of comparing Garchomp back then to any later time. As I said had Paul rematched Cynthia around late DP, he would have likely fared better (but still lose of course), because it was after the series built him up.

It's the same with the other Elite's. Ash lost to Lorelei/Prima because well he was a rookie at the time. He lost to Hoenn Drake because Grovyle was still in its middle stage and not at its full potential yet. He did fairly decently against Agatha until for some reason Ash forgot Pikachu's Quick attack doesn't effect ghost types. Flint was in the Masters 8, so him being really powerful makes sense. And I feel Bertha is more due to Ash not being able to handle Torterra's speed well than anything. Every time he lost to an Elite 4 is because Ash or his team wasn't fully developed yet, and Flint just seems to be the strongest Elite 4 of the anime just below Champion level

 

[Hidden Mew]

It definitely was early into the animes history now in retrospect. Neither Paul (nor Ash) were league winners at that point. Very early DP era Ash and Paul would not be a challenge to Cynthia. So I don't see the point of comparing Garchomp back then to any later time. As I said had Paul rematched Cynthia around late DP, he would have likely fared better (but still lose of course), because it was after the series built him up.

Ten years really isn't early even in retrospect. I still think that's a huge stretch to make it sound like the anime was still finding its footing when it really wasn't. The fact that the anime continued to for fifteen more years doesn't really change anything. And winning the League is not the only way for a trainer to be considered strong. The series built Paul up from the start. I agree that he probably would have fared better at the end of DP, but I just wouldn't discount early Paul completely when he was presented as a strong trainer right off the bat.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Nobody knew for sure if Paul was a trainer who had traveled to multiple regions like Ash until the Top Down Training episode.But from the very beginning it was already established that he was pretty smart and skilled in battle.For the longest the Paul haters have said that he's a weak fodder trainer but only apply this to when comparing him to E4/Champions.As just a regular placing him on an even playing field he's actually a strong trainer,early DP he's easily a huge threat with his starter Torterra who could very well be scaled up to Ash's Charizard.

Iris wasn't all that strong when BW was airing while Paul post sinnoh league was about as powerful as the frontier brains.Iris became champion sometime before Journeys aired but lost to Ash and later on to Cynthia.Based off the crazy powerscaling in Journeys Paul should now be capable of taking down a good portion of Cynthia's pokemon if not all of them compared to back then.