How bad was the Johto team really?

[Cybersai]

I might change my opinion on them if they ever made any comebacks and were handled well, but until then, I'll reserve my judgment.

The writers did an excellent job with Phanpy during Battle Frontier, they turned a baby Pokemon who got very little screentime into a strong ground Pokemon.

One of the best things about the show is the writers learned how to handle Ash's Pokemon a lot better as it went on, no more releases like Pidgeot and Butterfree, very few unevolving Pokemon, and almost every Pokemon gets a moment of glory now.

 

[Trainer'sInsomnia]

we are not talking about move sets and popularity, they might not be the most popular but they were powerful,

they might have the same move set as previose generation but they still got the job done in battle

Move sets were mentioned because the Johto squad had such similar movesets to their stronger, Kanto Counterparts. And when the hell did I talk about popularity?

 

[Rhyperior]

Well then they need to show it. I think this entire thing will end if the Johto starters and Noctowl come back and prove that they didn't deserve to be upstaged by Charizard & Friends during the league.

But the odds is that it's Torkoal who'll come back, not the Johto team. If the odd is true, then the writers probably have no intention to fix the problem with Johto. They just want to fix Torkoal which is a nub to the perfect Hoenn team.

 

[emanuellburnell]

There is really no proof that torkoal is coming back and the magazine is a fake. There was nothing wrong with the johto team in the first place that's the fans making up crap about them being bad when they never was and there really is no problem to fix with johto. The hoenn team was not that perfect but they had some great mega battles sceptile and swellow were cool powerhouses.

 

[Rhyperior]

Well, I supposed the evolution of Phanpy in the frontier saga is the kind of "fix". Donphan and Heracross is like the three starters of Kanto, they're just the representatives of Johto. Though there's some other people who think the other ways. So the only ways to satisfy those guys is to bring the Johto starters and Noctowl back. Anyway, they are never weak in my eyes, they are just relatively weak when compared to the Hoenn/Kanto team. Though I may argue that Cyndaquil is somehow stronger than Torkoal.

I think I'm only saying that it's odds, and I did use the word "if", I'm not saying it's going to happen. And the "problem" I refer to is that they're relatively weak, not that they're weak. Sorry for the lack of declaration.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

Huh,to be honest Johto team wasnt that bad at all.It wasnt Ash strongest team,but it was decent and it had his highlights.

Ok lets take a look at every pokemon:
-Heracross,undeniably one of the best pokemon which Ash had in Johto.His battles against Scizor(dont remember the name of episode) and against Garys Magmar were impressive and shows how strong he is.
-Cyndaquil,had 5 in total wins in gym battles(against Steelix,Dewgong,Scyther,Gastly and Clefairy i think).His battle against Scarmory in "Hot Matches" was decent aswell.
-Bayleef,one of the better pokemon in that team for sure.She had important role in Johto team and managed to beat both of Chucks pokemon Poliwrath and Machoke,and Harrisons Houndoor despite the type disadvantage.Not to mention her win when she was still Chikorita against Spinarak in Azalea gym shouldnt be ignored aswell.
-Noctowl,like people tend to give lower credit to whole Johto as a region,they are giving lower credit than it deserves to this pokemon aswell.People can say what they want but this pokemon was able to beat both Haunter and Gengar in gym battle.It is also needed to be taken into account that Noctowl helped Ash and co in many situations outside of battling aswell.Not to mention having flying/psychic pokemon with psychic abilities was welcome addition to Ashs Johto team.Seriously how often main characters get to have psychic type pokemon?
-Totodile,ah yes the most hated Ashs water pokemon.Yes he didnt have many impressive battles,but his battles against Kingdra in Whirl Cup and Harrisons Sneasel were decent.When it comes to his dancing before battle,while some people find this annoying,to others this is funny so its hard to please everyone.
-Phanphy,this pokemon didnt received too much screentime but this is understandable considering how Ash got it during the period which was leaning toward the end of Johto saga.However even during this small period this pokemon managed to put up the good fight and even win against Macys Slugma during beginning of Johto tournament.

All in all when you take in account all things and factors,johto team was ok.It seems there are three reasons why people are disliking this time.
The first one is because people probably had a hard time adjusting to new team,after almost all of Ashs glorified Kanto pokemon started leaving in Johto(starting with Charizard,Squirtle and eventually Bulbasaur aswell).

The second reason is because this team didnt have many evolutions.However this is unjustified reason.Except in some extreme examples like Gyarados,Steelix against Pidgey,Wormple,size of pokemon doesnt always matter.Pokemon can be strong and impressive if it doesnt evolve aswell.One of the best examples for this is Ashs Bulbasaur.

The third reason probably have something to do with lack of screentime for some of this pokemon,not leaving enough space for their development.This is also unjustified reason,because the ones to blame for this are not this pokemon but writers.I also find it amusing when some people are claiming how Johto team didnt have personality,when infact it did.

Noone was threated greatly in Johto region,but the ones to blame for this are pokemon writers,not characters and pokemon.

 

[emanuellburnell]

I don't believe no one was threated badly in the johto region at all that is what some of the fans are saying which is not true anyways. Totodile was not ash's most hated water type pokemon he was great and had alot of wins against not two pokemon but three and won and the johto team is just as strong as the hoenn and kanto teams. The johto team was never weak they were his strongest team he had the fans always make big deals out of stuff like this for nothing and they did not need to evovle to prove how great they were.

 

[Rhyperior]

I admit that they are never weak, but what do you mean by they're the strongest team?

Not to mention having flying/psychic pokemon with psychic abilities was welcome addition to Ashs Johto team.Seriously how often main characters get to have psychic type pokemon?

I admit that it's great for having Psychic abilities which can be very effective against the Gastly family which Ash often loses to. But it's a flying/normal in fact. It's just like Golduck, a Pokémon that knows Psychic moves but isn't a Psychic type. Um, if I recall, it''s Ash's only Pokémon that knew Psychic. Others have no one that knew Psychic except James who has a Mime Jr. and Jessie who had a Dustox that knew one Psychic move.

-Phanphy,this pokemon didnt received too much screentime but this is understandable considering how Ash got it during the period which was leaning toward the end of Johto saga.However even during this small period this pokemon managed to put up the good fight and even win against Macys Slugma during beginning of Johto tournament.

Um, this Pokémon has already evolved into a Donphan in the BF saga and has already gained fame from people (including me, of course) so there's no need to defend it. XD

 

[MistyBrockAsh]

golduck is part phyic and i dont understand why every one always hates on totodile,, i mean he had more wins then some of ash's other pokemon like trorcoal and glaile and others..

 

[emanuellburnell]

Well not everybody is hating Totodile he was a really great battler,people love Totodile a lot he was really popular back during the Johto saga,it is some of the other fans that are saying that he was hated which was never true at all they all ways saying things that not true at all.

 

[Cybersai]

One good thing that could come from these GS remakes is the writers finally giving Ash's Johto Pokes the proper screentime they didn't get originally.

I think people would be happy to see Cynda/Totodile evolve.

 

[The Booty Warrior]

Somehow, I think I might not mind if it's Totodile, but Cyndaquil just wouldn't seem right to me. Probably has something to do with his awesome, awesome taking out of Steelix.

I do think Heracross should've been in Ash's team some more. The only battles it got to prove its strength in were fillers. I really wish he'd have worked with it in at least one Gym. I was looking all over a site for Johto episodes that had major Heracross battles, and all I found were two...though the battle with Scizor was a fine one.

Hopefully, Ash's Johto team will get more than enough screentime. My reasoning is that if they got badly treated in Johto, then their later appearances should more than make up for it. After all, we already knew Ash's Kanto team was awesome, and the BF arc only topped it. The Johto crew needs the same in some form, only at least a bit more.

 

[impactkhtennis_thewind]

the only one i liked was Bayleef.
however, it would be nice to see him with his team again

 

[Cybersai]

Now that Ash has Monferno its going to take a good excuse to bring Cynda back, since Monferno has the biggest plotline of DP and I can't see it being left behind.

 

[Ampharos King]

The Johto team in my opinion was just a revised copy of Ash's Kanto team. They had a grass-type starter, a fire-type starter, a water-type starter, a bird, the wild card, and Pikachu of course. Literally, this can apply to any pokemon Ash had on his team.

He originally started with Pikachu, Bulbasaur, Charizard, and Squirtle- same as Kanto, right?
Then he caught Heracross, which Ash used fairly often in the 20-or-so episodes that he had it on his team- Donphan, Scizor, Pinsir mecha. Outside fillers though, Heracross rarely battled; even in the bug-type gym, it was not used. It really did not have any good attacks at the time despite its overuse, and was quickly Oaked. Despite this, however, Heracross was used to defeat a Magmar with Megahorn even after being Oaked.
His sixth pokemon, Chikorita, was basically the feminine Bulbasaur. It showed the same personality traits as the latter, and it generally had the same movepool as Bulbasaur (bans Solarbeam). It was used a lot more during its evolution, where it basically helped Ash win a gym battle and battled in two Silver Conference matches.
He released his Charizard to capture a Cyndaquil, which carried the former's tradition of being the most overused pokemon during the entire arc. It also constantly used Flamethrower. The only differences really is its young age, failure to evolve despite having many opportunities to do so, and initial inability to use fire attacks.
Similarly, he did the same with Squirtle. He released it and obtained a Totodile. Despite Totodile's unique personality, it was not used very often in gym battles (only used three times- twice against Whitney and once against that unofficial water gym). It was used fairly often in Ash's other endeavors, though, including the Whirl Cup and several TR battles (more so than Cyndaquil in my opinion).
He then caught a Shiny Noctowl, which was the only unique thing about it really. The personality traits that were established in its debut episode, including cunningness and trickery, were quickly lost. Like Pidgeotto, it was used mainly for finding TR. Perhaps its only shining moment was when Noctowl learned Confusion and defeated Morty. In addition to that, it was also used in another gym battle and a Silver Conference match, where it really did not do anything.
After Oaking Bulbasaur, Ash received a Pokemon egg which hatched into Phanpy. Similar to the other wild cards, Phanpy received fairly little development and training yet was able to compete to the standards of Ash's other pokemon. Despite being very young, Phanpy was used in an unofficial gym battle and a Silver Conference match, prior to the Battle Frontier arc.
Basically to sum this up, Ash's Johto team is basically a copy of Ash's Kanto team in terms of the overall nitches, despite several personality and attack differences.

 

[Cybersai]

Basically to sum this up, Ash's Johto team is basically a copy of Ash's Kanto team in terms of the overall nitches, despite several personality and attack differences.

And nowhere near as interesting. The problem with the Johto team is that they just weren't interesting to watch. Heracross and Phanpy being the only exceptions due to their unique types.

Bulbasaur, Squirtle and Charizard all had well developed backstories, personalities, and shining moments in the anime.

When you look at the Johto roster, they just feel like lackluster replacements. There's nothing about them that stood out compared to the original team.

 

[The Booty Warrior]

On the note of Heracross being Oaked, what exactly does that term mean?

 

[J J M]

On the note of Heracross being Oaked, what exactly does that term mean?

It's a fan-made term referring to Pokemon that have been left with Professor Oak. There have been many variations of it later on (Johanna'd, Reggie'd and a few more which I can't remember )

 

[The Booty Warrior]

It's a shame. I just remembered:

"And it's no wonder Heracross has become so powerful after sucking sap out of my trees for so long!"

I should've remembered just HOW long it had been there.

I hope the Johto team comes back with some new moves. If Torkoal can learn Heat Wave with Oak, then Bayleef can very well learn something like Mega Drain or Seed Bomb, or Cynda can learn Fire Spin or Lava Plume, or Totodile can learn Hydro Pump or Aqua Tail.

 

[Ampharos King]

It's a shame. I just remembered:

"And it's no wonder Heracross has become so powerful after sucking sap out of my trees for so long!"

I should've remembered just HOW long it had been there.

I hope the Johto team comes back with some new moves. If Torkoal can learn Heat Wave with Oak, then Bayleef can very well learn something like Mega Drain or Seed Bomb, or Cynda can learn Fire Spin or Lava Plume, or Totodile can learn Hydro Pump or Aqua Tail.

Assuming Ash actually bothers using them again...