How come Charmeleon and Charizard were so mean?

[Cyborger]

For the past few months I've been researching old Pokemon mysteries (at least they're mysteries to ME) and thankfully most of my questions have been answered. Like the GS Ball thing. However one still eludes me. How come when Charmander evolved it became spiteful and mean towards Ash?

 

[Falconwing]

It went through puberty?

 

[Iteru]

It realised its British heritage and decided to embrace the stereotype.

It went through puberty?

If I were to hypothesise a real reason then it would be this.

 

[Somari]

As said, puberty. Also Charmeleon are more aggresive then Charmander.

But the real reason seems to be game related. Ash wasn't at a high enough level so Charmeleon stopped respecting him. He didn't have enough gym badges, and even then he didn't respect him due to the way he was.

 

[Piplup]

I think it could possibly be cause Ash, controlled by that magician (Melvin? not sure about his name) pushed Charmander too much and didn't care at all... so maybe Charmander didn't realize Ash didn't know what he's doing and thought Ash don't care about it anymore
Of course, it's just a random speculation... they never really said why it happened

 

[¿Mukuhawku?]

It's all based upon the games, mostly.

Charmander was originally owned by Daimon, then captured by Ash. In the games, pokemon obtained through trades begin to disobey low badged trainers when their level is too high.

Also, note that, out of Ash's Charmander, Bulbasaur, and Squirtle, Charizard was the only one to evolve even once, fully evolving by EP47 (Though Bulbasaur refused to evolve.) In the games, traded Pokemon gain EXP and evolve faster than normal pokemon.

It seems however, that in the anime, Charizard doesn't consider having a lot of badges to be the reason to respect him, but simply when he sees how great and worthy a trainer Ash is to him. (Shown in Charizard Chillswhen Ash did everything he could to thaw Charizard out, then proceeded to remember when Ash saved him as a Charmander, therfore gaining Ash's respect.)

 

[sqwat500]

i wonder id squirtle or bulbasaur evolved, would the same thing happen?

 

[Eitarou]

I doubt that would happen

 

[Sanic Hegehog]

I think it was because he was abused by Damian, that as Charmander evolved that abuse caught up to him and started to influence his behavior for the worse.

He was like a kid, very influenced by others.

 

[Dogasu]

I do find the sudden personality change to be very jarring. There really isn't anything during its adventures as a Hitokage that even hinted that it didn't respect its trainer, so the fact that it just suddenly decides to look down on him doesn't make any sense.

 

[DarkShadowJake]

It was because he wanted to see the strength in Ash.
Charizard wanted to see if Ash was a good enough trainer,thus disobeying him.

 

[Buizelfan!]

Because of its nature? or that Ash was inexperienced and it wanted to test Ash

 

[IMG]

Ash needed more gym badges so he could be obedient.

It's more of a game related thing.

 

[Crysta Blade]

Now that you bring it up, it was strange to see a personality shift with practically no explanation. It was all "Charmeleon/Charizard's disobidient 'cause Ash sucks hurr hurr". They could've tied trauma from the previous Trainer into it somehow.

 

[Dogasu]

It was because he wanted to see the strength in Ash.

But only when it was a Lizard? It didn't care at all about its trainer's strength when it was still a Hitokage?

If it had shown signs that it thought Satoshi wasn't a good trainer when it was still a Hitokage, then that'd be one thing. But it didn't. If you look at all the episodes featuring it as a Hitokage, it always seemed more than happy to do whatever Satoshi asks it to do. It did everything its trainer asked and seemed to be happy while doing it.

I just don't understand how it went from huddling around its trainer in "Snow Way Out" (which, chronologically, occurs soon after the Porygon episode) to keep him warm to breathing fire on him in "The March of the Exeggutor Squad."

This just goes to show you that the writers in Kanto were just making shit up as they went along. If this had been a modern-day plotline, they would have at least tried to work in some foreshadowing somewhere.

 

[Frenzy Plant]

Becaue the writers wanted to work Pokémon disobedience into the anime somehow, and using a cute little lizard evolving into an aggressive-looking one was a good option on Ash's team to fill that role.

I don't like how drastic the change was, though. It would've made more sense if spent more time in its middle form being unruly but still obedient as a Charmeleon, then disobedient as a Charizard. To me, at least.

 

[Jukain]

Well, there has been evidence of pokemon changing personalities as they evolve. The best one I can think of is Brock's Lotad/Lombre/Ludicolo. True, this aspect is not touched upon a lot, and in this case, it didn't cause problems with controlling the pokemon. All the other pokemon I can think of did not undergo such a sharp personality shift. They stay mostly the same, or if they change, it's because of character development. Dawn's Swinub/Piloswine/Mamoswine has equally no explanation as to why it suddenly went rogue, but then again, we didn't see much of Swinub anyway. I am tempted to go along with that these species of pokemon are just hard to tame, but there is no evidence that that is the case in the anime. Not only has an entire species never been depicted as difficult to tame, but no other trainer in the anime has ever had problems with their Charmeleon/Charizard or Piloswine. It may be true this point is a nod to the game's disobedience mechanic, only tweaked to be a little bit more realistic, but yeah, there is no real explanation as to why these pokes went rogue upon evolving.

 

[Lord Fedora]

I can actually tie a logical reason in with the passed around "Badges and experience" and make both finally make sense.

Pokemon are free-willed and intelligent creatures. You have to earn their respect in order for them to like you, and more than that, for Trainers, you have to prove that you're strong enough to control them. Both in-game and, for the most part, in the anime, just catching a Pokemon is more than enough to earn its respect and obedience. You've defeated it in pitched combat, subdued it, and captured it. Clearly you are the superior one between the two, the Alpha of the pack, if you will. And since the ones you capture yourself grow alongside you, as well as your starter, then they see you grow as a trainer as they grow themselves. Furthermore, Gift Pokemon in the games will obey you because their masters saw you as more than fit to train them, the exception being Eevee, which you totally stole (but Eevee are generally more docile and would therefore be more willing to see you as pack leader in that case). In the anime, you can also earn a Pokemon's obedience in other ways. Squirtle and Mijumaru are prime examples, the former was won over by Ash for saving it from Team Rocket's attacks while the latter was flattered by his compliment, hurt by Shooti's rejection, and really wanted to go on an adventure.

But then we have disobedient Pokemon. In-game it can only happen with traded Pokemon, because you never actually exerted your dominance to capture it. You earn their respect by proving yourself to be powerful enough, in this case by earning badges. You'd think that saving the world and defeating demi-gods in battle would do it too, but whatever. Anyway, in the anime, it's never as simple as levels. Rather, what we notice is that the change comes with evolution, specifically from a more relaxed, less powerful Pokemon to a stronger Pokemon. Note that in the main cast, we've only seen it with three Pokemon, Charizard, Dawn's Mamoswine, and Iris' Doryuuzu. Charizard, as we know, began disobeying immediately after evolving to Charmeleon. But it's first act of disobedience wasn't "I don't care what happens in Ash's battle" or "that's a stupid idea, I'll use this move instead." It was "I feel good, I feel strong, what the hell do you mean 'go easy on it?'" After that, having noticed that his evolution had made him significantly stronger compared to Ash's slow, normal growth or your average evolution which generally doesn't see that kind of advancement. Then came Charizard, which is an inherent personality change to a vicious fire breathing beast and an even larger boost in power, and Ash had no chance of just earning its respect by battling. He literally had to save Charizard's life, again, to get him to listen, and even that was only after Zard got knocked down a peg by Poliwrath. Similarly, Dawn's Piloswine still loved her right after evolving. It wasn't until it occurred to it that it was, in fact, much stronger than Dawn that it stopped listening, particularly with the actually puberty like personality change. Again, Dawn had to help it get better after being severely smacked down to get its obedience, and even then it was still kind of rebellious teenager-ish, it just listened to her commands.

In short, it's not because Ash didn't have enough badges, specifically, but it's for the same reason that you need badges in-game for traded Pokemon. For a Pokemon you capture to listen to and obey you, you need to have its respect.

 

[Still Probably Modio]

see, the thing is, he got it from another trainer, and when it became strong enough and ash didnt have enough badges, it fealt it was too strong for a trainer like him. same thing happens in the game. not enough badges and too high a level= NOT OBBEY! DEET!

 

[Cybersai]

I always assumed the reason Swinub stopped obeying Dawn when it evolved, is it recognized itself as a strong/powerful mammoth, and didn't care for Contests very much or a girl who owned it.

In some of Dawn's contests you can see Mamoswine sitting there watching with little interest, until eventually it wants to take part.

I always like it when you see mismatched Pokemon with trainers, it was interesting to see Dawn try to get this big mammoth to obey her rather than all her cute little plushes like Piplup/Buneary/Pachirisu/Cyndaquil that did whatever she wanted.

Togekiss doesn't count as it is a disgrace.