How do we feel about dual type attacks?

[Stratelier]

Oh, that's the other thing: Whether or not a dual-typed attack (in one interpretation of the term) would get dual STAB if used by a dual-typed Pokemon.

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

If the gimmick is STAB for one type with the matchups of another, no. If it has the matchups of both types in some capacity, then maybe, but I don't think any rumours so far have referred to that.

 

[El_]

To be honest, this really isn't that confusing a concept, its actually pretty clever imo and should have been implemented with Black/White Kyurem's signatures.

Cold Flare/Freeze Bolt could easily be changed to being Ice stabs but doing Fire & Electric type damage. (they'd still suck probably, but whatever)

 

[NoirGrimoir]

I think even if we get dual type attacks (in the nature of getting STAB from one type, but doing damage in a different type) that there wouldn't be such thing as "Double STAB".

 

[Mitchman]

YES! I agree with it completely, and cannot wait for the Pokebeach rumor to come out true. I would prefer if it works like in the fake stuff, with stab and then type effectiveness separate, but dual type effectiveness would be even better. Lets say you have a flying/psychic attack, and go for a fighting type. Wouldn't that make it x6 effective? Something tells me HP bases are gonna be a lot higher.

 

[Meophist]

YES! I agree with it completely, and cannot wait for the Pokebeach rumor to come out true. I would prefer if it works like in the fake stuff, with stab and then type effectiveness separate, but dual type effectiveness would be even better. Lets say you have a flying/psychic attack, and go for a fighting type. Wouldn't that make it x6 effective? Something tells me HP bases are gonna be a lot higher.

That's going to severely weaken existing Pokémon who might not have the defenses and HP to survive such attacks. It can turn out to be a significant power creep.

 

[Mitchman]

Exactly why I said base HP is gonna skyrocket. Defense too. I seriously don't mind the power creep, its not like Gen 5 wasn't on a complete power trip.

 

[Stratelier]

Well, two-turn moves can easily have their base power increased (seriously, who ever uses Razor Wind?) simply on the reasoning that it gives the opponent one turn to switch to a resistant type (or use Protect) before it strikes.

 

[bolter1]

I think dual type attacks would be far too game breaking when it comes to type effectiveness. Dual type attacks open up to possibility if 8x attacks and 1/8 attacks.
For example: Charizard uses a Fire/Flying move against Grass/Bug pokemon Parasect. Both Grass and Bug are 4x weak against both Fire and Flying so the attack is even more powerful. If Parasect has Dry Skin as its ability, the attack would do 25% more damage in addition to STAB and and Charizard's Solar Power. The resuting effectiveness would be 10x super effective! That is just too strong in my opinion. I doubt even a Parasect with full EVs and IVs with a beneficial nature in HP and respective defense stat would be able to live against a Charizard with no EVs and IVs and with a hindering nature using that move against it (barring Focus Sash). That is just way too powerful in my opinion. Likewise, if someone used an Ice/Steel attack against Heatran, since Heatran resists both Ice and Steel individually for 1/4x, together the effective would be 1/8x. Heatran already resists alot, but with this kind of resistance it can switch into any Ice/Steel attack with impunity. Even with no EVs, IVs, and a hindering nature against something with full IVs, EVs, and a beneficial nature.
Dual typed attacks have the power to turn two easily avoidable double weaknesses when they're separate into a potential weakness that can cause over 1000 damage. Even a max HP Blissey doesn't have 1000 HP. It can also turn a wall into a super-wall that can never be taken down. Albeit, these are extreme cases, but game breaking nevertheless.
Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

 

[Stratelier]

Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

Heat Forme Rotom. Hypothetical Normal+Ghost typing.

 

[Meophist]

Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

By how you're calculating things, wouldn't any Ground-type to the former and Ghost or Normal-type to the latter be just outright immune to those attacks? Anything multiplied by zero is zero, afterall.

 

[bolter1]

Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

By how you're calculating things, wouldn't any Ground-type to the former and Ghost or Normal-type to the latter be just outright immune to those attacks? Anything multiplied by zero is zero, afterall.

Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

Heat Forme Rotom. Hypothetical Normal+Ghost typing.

This, too! Dual-type attacks really screw with super effectiveness and immunites. They create something that kind of feels like a paradox to me; far too confusing for kids to play.

 

[Zeta]

I really doubt we'll get double STAB. You'll probably only get STAB if you're the move's base type (the type that it actually is, not the type that does damage).

 

[Stratelier]

Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

By how you're calculating things, wouldn't any Ground-type to the former and Ghost or Normal-type to the latter be just outright immune to those attacks? Anything multiplied by zero is zero, afterall.

Ground is weak to Ice, so a part-Ground anything cannot ever be resistant to Ice.

BTW, I was only mentioning examples of types that in fact are resistant to said combos. Fire (resistant to Ice) + Electric (resistant to itself) = resistance to the Electric+Ice attack combo (which is indeed otherwise a stellar combination, since with the exception of itself, everything that resists Electric is vulnerable to Ice). Fighting+Ghost is definitely the attack combo to beat (anything that resists Ghost, including Normal, is vulnerable to Fighting)....

 

[YamiiDenryuu]

Also, if there were an Electric/Ice or a Fighting/Ghost move there would be no Pokemon that will resist it ever with the current type chart and abilities.

By how you're calculating things, wouldn't any Ground-type to the former and Ghost or Normal-type to the latter be just outright immune to those attacks? Anything multiplied by zero is zero, afterall.

Ground is weak to Ice, so a part-Ground anything cannot ever be resistant to Ice.

Nooo... if you're multiplying the effectiveness of ice by that of electricity, you'll get zero for anything that's part ground. It doesn't matter what the other factor is- you multiply it by zero, it's gone. Unless you think dual-type attacks will somehow ignore immunities?

 

[Stratelier]

Sorry, I was indeed thinking single-typed attacks.

Say we were to take an 'averaging' approach, where instead of operating in pure powers of two, it operates in like half-powers of two. Meaning that in order to get 2x effectiveness against the target, both attack elements need to be supereffective (or one is doubly supereffective). If only one attack element in a dual-type attack is supereffective you only get about 1.5x effectiveness (okay, 1.41x, but it's about the same effect as an elemental Gem or an extra STAB).

And regarding immunities, for the sake of NOT zeroing out damage too often I would probably treat an immunity as a "triple resistance", except in the rare event that the target is immune (whether by type or ability) to both attack elements.

 

[Ryoma Maser]

Yeah that will be so cool but it will be cool to have fusion attacks like from the Anime can anyone picture a posion gullitone

 

[GreatLiver]

Yeah that will be so cool but it will be cool to have fusion attacks like from the Anime can anyone picture a posion gullitone

It's guillotine, the type is redundant other than immunities.

 

[DragonCIaw]

I think it'd be interesting, but diverging a little to much from the original mechanics of Pokémon battling...I'm trying to keep an open mind for whatever happens, though!

 

[Aves]

I feel like the idea that dual typed attacks would be imbalanced kind of assumes an imbalanced way of implementation. Dual typed moves is a pretty obvious development from dual typed pokémon. In the same way that allowing pokémon to be dual typed allows for interesting concepts, moves with dual types would be able to cover new territory that single typed moves are less able to do.

It's not even clear how a move with two types would function. There are a number of options:

• Hybrid moves. Damage is one half the first type and one half the second (including the multi-hit moves people have mentioned). In this instance, you could have STAB for both types, an immunity to one type would negate only half the damage (or 25% for a resistance), and both types would have to be super effective for a multiplier of 2x. The advantage of this system is that the attack isn't totally ruined by immunities. The disadvantage is that the damage would be lower (either in its potential maximum or on average depending on the types) than for single type attacks and it doesn't help against double immunities.
• Modal moves. Damage is either the first type or the second type. In this instance, the attack would select the most effective type. You would only get one STAB, and the maximum effectiveness multiplier would be the same as for single type moves, with the upside that you basically gain an extra move slot with broadened effectiveness against types. The downside of this is that the modality would probably be counter-intuitive for the flavor of two typed moves.
• Combo moves. Damage is both the first type and the second type. Dual type moves would work on offense the way that dual typed pokémon work on defense, averaging the effectiveness of the move's types. You could get two STABs and high effectiveness multiplier potentials, but on the other hand, the variance in the range of effectiveness would also be high and a single immunity would negate the whole thing.

Hybrid moves are probably the weakest option, but they would also make dual typing more guaranteed to be useful.

Modal moves might actually contribute to greater game balance if the dual type moves introduced combined a lot of types that are by themselves less offensive types, thereby making pokémon with access to those types more versatile on offense, encouraging their use.

If they did go with the combo move option, there would certainly be an "epic damage modifier" factor, but this would be balanced if the base power for dual type moves that have a lot of dual effectiveness modifiers were lower (or some other drawback). I think this option would be received by the players as the coolest way to implement dual type moves, so it's the most likely in that sense. But individual moves could also make use of the other mechanical options.