How Much More Fleshed Out Could Misty, Iris, and Serena's Goals Have Went/Be?

[Hidden Mew]

thats a good argument. Maybe sometimes they could show only 8, but 4 his four hers, or something in that direction.
Or make a female rival.(we saw some battles of Paul in gen IV)
I'm for Serena becoming a Coordinator next and to go with Ash into the generation 7 region.

Skipping Ash's Gym battles would be pretty bad. I don't think it would be good idea. We saw some of Paul's Gym battles in DP, but not every one of them and it was easier for them to skip Paul's matches simply because he wasn't a main character. Not showing a Gym battle for a female main character would be like if they had skipped all of the battles in a Contest for May or Dawn. It would be lousy writing and I don't think people would be in favor of that either. A female rival instead of a female character who also goes after Gym badges would be a better idea.

As much as I'd like the idea of Serena becoming a Coordinator, I think doing that at this point would be pretty bad, at least from a character perspective. After all of the character development she has had and all of the determination she had for becoming Kalos Queen after not having a goal herself, I think that changing her goal again would be pretty lousy. I would have loved to see Contests return, but I don't think that they could have done that with Serena due to time given when she finally got her first Princess Key. Besides that, there's no way that she'll stay past XY. They hopefully will bring back Contests for the next series, or at least have some kind of battle active goal for the female lead to do, but it isn't going to be Serena. They'll get a new female lead that promotes the seventh generation instead of the sixth.

 

[KrisiChiki]

I still wish we'd see Pokeathlon in the anime. It's old, but nothing stops Game Freak from introducing an updated version of it in the next generation.

I think it would be an interesting goal for the female companion to have. Pokeathlon can be exciting and the writers would have a lot of options in how to develop the character to become stronger, compared to Serena's Showcase goal that is a little too specific and sets limits. It would also be a nice break from having the female companion have feminine goals (Contests, Showcases) or vague goals that don't go anywhere (poor Misty and Iris).

There's nothing wrong with feminine goals, no. Besides, Contests had male Coordinators so it wasn't just a female thing. However, seeing how the writers handled the Showcases (though at least the latest Showcase episode in Japan was a considerable improvement compared to the past ones), I think it's time to try something else. The female companion doesn't need to be a the tomboy type to participate in a competition like the Pokeathlon. Heck, she could be pretty girly but also be a great Pokemon athlete.

 

[Cybersai]

After 5 females in its pretty obvious no girl will ever have a battle-oriented goal as long as Ash is the main character. Anything that falls under traditional battling like Gyms, Battle Frontier, Battle Tower, most tournaments, etc...will be given to Ash. Yeah, sometimes the females get to participate in these things but its always a one-off thing.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

After 5 females in its pretty obvious no girl will ever have a battle-oriented goal as long as Ash is the main character. Anything that falls under traditional battling like Gyms, Battle Frontier, Battle Tower, most tournaments, etc...will be given to Ash. Yeah, sometimes the females get to participate in these things but its always a one-off thing.

Well Misty and Iris were closest in that. I mean it wasn't traditional type of career Ash and other trainers pursue in collecting gym badges and striving to win league.
But for all intents and purposes their dreams of becoming water pokemon master or dragon pokemon master respectively were battle oriented being portrayed as tough female battlers. Involving training, battling other trainers and competing in tournaments.

With purpose behind their careers lying in becoming competent trainers who learned how to use specie they specialize in to full potential and in former case go as far as in reaching E4 level winning water themed tournaments.

Granted there existed lot of room to be done much more clearing up veil of vagueness and ambiguity surrounding them, but core and what their careers involved, objective was known in what is final destination for them to reach.

That said I too would welcome to have for once girl striving to battle in league as well. Possibly qualifying for it through other means in avoiding to collect gym badges. After all in Kanto through special school and Ultimate test alternative ways revealed to exist.

Or pursuing some other battle oriented career like Pokethlon as one of posters brought up, but properly fleshed out and developed. Having smart and spirited female companion who posses competence, knowledge and equally big persistence in achieving her own dreams like Ash does.

But still if i could choose i would be more in favor of just investing more in past female leads who are already battle hardened trainers and adventurous in their started careers getting sequel and chance to be developed further. Instead of letting such goals like type master go to waste never being brought up again.

 

[tyguy723]

Misty and Iris should have been battling more if they really wanted to be masters of their types. They got the whole emotional development, but almost zero strength shown with battling. Misty was part of the original where they were testing things out, so I guess she gets a pass. Iris on the other hand...shame on the writers. Shame on the writers for the ENTIRE Unova series, what a joke...lots of experience should have made them ready to develop a character like Iris, a parallel to Misty, as a do-over opportunity to make such a character actually fulfilled in their goal.

Serena is probably the weakest traveling partner to me at least...the showcases are the most sexist tongue stuck out at you thing the series has ever given us, contests>>>>

May got boring over time because of exactly what one person said about her not even wanting pokemon but rather to be famous. Dawn is still the best traveling companion of the series albeit being the female Ash (but because of being that it made the writers actually write episodes about her)

 

[Necrozma]

Misty and Iris should have been battling more if they really wanted to be masters of their types. They got the whole emotional development, but almost zero strength shown with battling. Misty was part of the original where they were testing things out, so I guess she gets a pass. Iris on the other hand...shame on the writers. Shame on the writers for the ENTIRE Unova series, what a joke...lots of experience should have made them ready to develop a character like Iris, a parallel to Misty, as a do-over opportunity to make such a character actually fulfilled in their goal.

What show did you watch? Iris did a ton of battling in Best Wishes and had a ton of victories, she was established as an experienced battler. She battled way more than Misty ever did. She won a freaking tournament, participated in two others, battled both Drayden and Claire and began to battle even before she joined Ash and achieved 99 victories with Drilbur/Excadrill.

So what the heck are you talking about?

 

[tyguy723]

But she barely battled with dragons XD

Axew should have been more of a focus an evolved at least once lol I will admit she did more battles, but like why did she get an emolga at all? I love the Pokemon to death but it just filled a slot that didn't need to be in her team.

I watched black and white in its entirety so I think I know what I'm talking about lol

 

[Cybersai]

Also where did you get the idea May didn't want Pokemon and only wanted to be famous? LOL, I don't think she ever said that in the show. The moment after she got Torchic she never said she didn't like Pokemon again.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

What show did you watch? Iris did a ton of battling in Best Wishes and had a ton of victories, she was established as an experienced battler. She battled way more than Misty ever did. She won a freaking tournament, participated in two others, battled both Drayden and Claire and began to battle even before she joined Ash and achieved 99 victories with Drilbur/Excadrill.

So what the heck are you talking about?

Its common misconception that Iris battled more than Misty with her entering more tournaments giving out illusion of "battling more". But if we compare all focus Iris received in Unova with 270+ episodes Misty was part of OS and chronicles, her cameos, Misty if not having statistically more battling screen time wasn't much behind either.

Explanation:

Spoiler

Entering various battle related competitions like Princess festival tournament(she won it), tournament in winning Togepi. Seaking competition(won as well) or Whirl Cup.
Had several matches during her run like against Andreas, Delaney and his Poliwrath, Coastline gym leader Dorian from Johto, Marcellus who used Remoraid, Trinity and Harrison from Whirl islands. Water trainer Marina, Sakura and her sister Sumomo who used Vaporeon, pirates who wanted to kidnap Ash Lapras, various trainers like Joe and Giselle from pokemon school, Bike bridge gang when challenging girl with Cloyster etc.

Or various wild pokemon such as Odish, Clefairy, Macargo, Sneasel etc. Not to mention often teaming up with Ash in battling Jessie and James, sometime Meowth becoming especially frequent in Johto saga.

So in terms of experience and battling prowess on way of becoming water master Misty had lot of moments which I guess for many weren't enough memorable(for me they were).

However for all mistakes and flops happening in Unova saga, or Iris career of dragon master having inherent weakness in focusing on one of most rare and scarce types out there, removing way of measuring her progress through chain of dragon themed competitions in lacking enough resources.

Writers still gave her fairly decent focus admittedly.
Entering don George battle clubs, Junior Cup, Marine Cup, battling, dealing with her pokemon and disobedience issues, focusing on her dragon master goal and connections with dragon village, what motivated her in deciding to become master of dragons, , meeting other renowned dragon trainers like Drayden or Clair, contributing in defeating villains and their evil schemes etc.

But disappointment for me came just like it did with Misty in writers establishing several things related to her type master career, just to change plans in last minute or left things to stagnate. Like whole Axew evolution, rivalry with Georgia, diving deeper in dragon master goal and what other tasks and missions she would need to overcome aside from bonding with dragons and reading their feelings in earning dragon master title. From where her special ability to dive in dragon memories comes from like she demonstrated with Dragonite etc.

Pity, because there was potential just like with Misty to extract so much more out of her dreams and what writers started in first place.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Yeah, I'm confused about where the idea that May wanted to be famous came from too. That never came up in the show and I finished rewatching AG last year. She didn't even know what she wanted to do with her future after she started Contests. She just wanted to compete, but nothing about being famous ever came up. That's what Jessie always wanted, but not May. She slowly started to like Pokemon more after becoming a Trainer and then finding Contests, so that wasn't an issue.

As for Iris, she did battle more often than Misty did, which admittedly isn't saying much given that Misty really didn't battle all that much despite her goal basically requiring her to battle to some extent. It is true that she rarely battled with Axew and Emolga was given her just because they liked the idea of the female lead getting the cute Pikachu-like Electric type of the generation after Dawn though. I'd also say that the majority, if not all of her battles, were really bad, she didn't deserve quite a few of those victories and making her an experienced trainer out of nowhere with her backstory when early BW made her look like a pretty inexperienced trainer was extremely bad writing, so being more battle active than Misty didn't really make Iris or her goal handled any better for me.

 

[Mikuri]

To be perfectly honest, there really isn't much the writers can do with type experts. I think the writers deliberately decided to give Misty and Iris such a vague goal just so they wouldn't have the trouble of coming up with things for them to do every now and then. Misty and Iris were never meant to have a major role on the show like May and Dawn.

If the writers were willing to do something big with Misty and Iris then sure thing they would have a different goal. Brock being a Breeder, Tracey a Watcher, Cilan a Connoisseur... That's all part of the writers' plan to give Ash's friends an occupation that does not require too much effort on their [writers] part. Heck, we've seen more than 100 episodes with a Connoisseur on the cast and we still don't know how that career path really works, all we know is that they lure people into doing an evaluation much like fortune tellers and they have to take an exam in some sort of institution.

With type experts like Misty and Iris, all the writers could do is show them catching and training Pokémon of their favorite type. Just imagine how boring it would be to see Misty participating in... I don't know, maybe four... Whirl Cup competitions to enter the biggest Whirl Cup competition. All of the Trainers using the same Pokémon with similar strategies. It isn't like Ash who battles a different Gym Leader specializing in a certain type each time. It would be just a bunch of Trainers facing off in a Water Gun battle. Iris' case was lost from the get go because there weren't that many Dragon-type Pokémon in Unova. So to summarize, I don't think mono-type tournaments are a very good idea. So what else the writers could have done? Water chariot race? Done, see Tour de Alto Mare? Fishing competition? Done, see Seaking Catching Day. Yet we still think Misty's goal wasn't fleshed out. There was nothing more to show, it wasn't meant to get that much focus. And again, with Iris this is even worse, because it's hard do think of a Dragon-themed competition.

Note that I'm not saying I'm happy with the way Misty and Iris were handled. The writers could have shown Misty actually training her Psyduck instead of being annoyed each and every time the poor thing popped out of its Poké Ball. Misty's entire team was a mess, she had a Staryu and a Starmie for crying out loud. She is the only main character to have a Pokémon and its evolved form on the same team, and nowadays people complain about Ash having three very different Flying-type Pokémon.

Iris wasn't any better as her most reliable Pokémon was an Excadrill rather than a Dragon-type Pokémon. Excadrill and Emolga were the battlers of her team while the SOLE PURPOSE of her journey, Axew, was largely ignored. Episodes focusing on Axew usually involved the ugly baby dragon getting lost rather than getting experience to grow (and I'm not talking about evolving because Pokémon can develop without an evolution, just look at how capable Dawn's Piplup is at the end of the Diamond & Pearl series and compare to the early days of Dawn's Sinnoh journey).

With Serena, as much as I hate the concept of Pokémon Showcases, the writers have already fleshed out her goal. Performers have to collect three Princess Key to enter the Master Class tournament, where they will compete for the title of Kalos Queen. This is as fleshed out as a Trainer's quest to collect eight Gym Badges to enter the League Conference to compete for the title of Champion and a Coordinator's quest to collect five Contest Ribbons to enter the Grand Festival to compete for the title of Top Coordinator. We may not like Serena's goal, and we have pretty solid reasons not to, but we can't deny the writers have established it. We can hate Showcases all we want but at least we know what Serena has to do to achieve her goal, unlike Misty, Iris, and several other main cast members who had vague goals like becoming the best *pointless occupation* in the whole wide world by spending most of their time sitting in their asses.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

To be perfectly honest, there really isn't much the writers can do with type experts. I think the writers deliberately decided to give Misty and Iris such a vague goal just so they wouldn't have the trouble of coming up with things for them to do every now and then. Misty and Iris were never meant to have a major role on the show like May and Dawn.

I assume you haven't read my first post on page 1 of this thread, but there existed actually several what I would consider highly plausible directions in which writers could've and still can take Misty and Iris careers of mastering their specific type.
Especially in former case.
Since I don't like to repeat what I said I wont go in details, but in nutshell reason behind their lack of focus or better say lack of incentive coming from writers side lied in both lack of communication and organization in writing for pokemon anime during eras this two female leads were present. Lack of experience, unexpected change of plans and misguiding in what kind of formula pokemon series should follow(last one applies especially to OS).

I talked about this more thoroughly on page 2 of this thread.

If the writers were willing to do something big with Misty and Iris then sure thing they would have a different goal.

Turning completely anime exclusive idea like pokemon showcase in ongoing quest being by nature more limited and restrictive in what can be done with pokemon and their human partners than battle centric dreams like type master careers are; shows how writers could make something big out of dragon and water master dreams as well.

Being ultimately fleshed out and explained on more substantial degree.

Heck, we've seen more than 100 episodes with a Connoisseur on the cast and we still don't know how that career path really works, all we know is that they lure people into doing an evaluation much like fortune tellers and they have to take an exam in some sort of institution.

When taking in account way rivals were handled, Ash character suffering reset, badly handled pokemon on main cast team, botched league and Decolora arc which had no direction or any plot for Ash and co to follow.

Than it becomes apparent how lack of sufficient amount of focus and fleshing out of main character dreams didn't came from writers "not knowing" or "not having enough creative ideas".
But in either not wanting or just getting lazy giving up at some point. Because most of questionably handled things from that saga they proved to know how to handle properly and better in previous generations through their acts.

With type experts like Misty and Iris, all the writers could do is show them catching and training Pokémon of their favorite type. Just imagine how boring it would be to see Misty participating in... I don't know, maybe four... Whirl Cup competitions to enter the biggest Whirl Cup competition. All of the Trainers using the same Pokémon with similar strategies. It isn't like Ash who battles a different Gym Leader specializing in a certain type each time. It would be just a bunch of Trainers facing off in a Water Gun battle. Iris' case was lost from the get go because there weren't that many Dragon-type Pokémon in Unova. So to summarize, I don't think mono-type tournaments are a very good idea. So what else the writers could have done? Water chariot race? Done, see Tour de Alto Mare? Fishing competition? Done, see Seaking Catching Day. Yet we still think Misty's goal wasn't fleshed out. There was nothing more to show, it wasn't meant to get that much focus. And again, with Iris this is even worse, because it's hard do think of a Dragon-themed competition.

To be honest its rather unfair to judge something as "boring or bad" without taking in equation all possibilities.

People thought contests would be boring as hell when they were originally introduced, but writers took their liberty and innovation to new level by adding intricate entanglements going between main girls and their rivals accompanied with battling rounds. Pokémon performance Serena pursues caused mixed reactions in either boring fans to death or managing to surprise them positively genuinely liking this concept.

We already had mono based competitions and all of them received positive receptions with viewers accepting and genuinely having fun in watching type based tournaments where certain specie has chance to be utilized to full potential. Providing tougher challenge than regular tournaments have in sense of both trainers being forced to use same type and decide battle through taking advantage of terrain, air or sea currents and weaknesses inherent for certain pokemon in outsmarting each other. As opposed to type advantage thing.

Because Whirl Cup, grass pokemon tournament where Ash used Bulbasaur, Pokeringer etc were all examples showing how exciting and original such type of events can be.

To some that may sound "boring", but in order for something to become stale to individual first there needs to pass considerable amount of time when displaying whole thing in order for us to form valid opinion based on info, background and how dynamic or creative actions which took place around character and its story were. And whether we were able to experience excitement and fun when watching it, which again cannot appease everyone because each person has different criteria of something being fun and engaging to follow.

Only than constructive and reasonable opinion can be made about something and whether it fulfilled our expectations or failed while trying to do so.while to some it may not.
Hence why we cannot judge something on negative prejudices or positive expectations we may have over certain idea.

Maybe chain of dragon themed events wouldn't be available due to lack of big enough pool of options to choose from. But with type as abundant and diverse like water is that would be no problem at all.
Allowing to make chain of benchmarks featuring all kind of terrains, surrounding and obstacles you would need to adapt to as pokemon trainer and learn how to use your pokemon in most optimal way(like underwater battling with examples of third movie and battle vs Molly or vs Dorian in late Johto demonstrating how engaging and creative such battles can be)
- water races with various rocks and all kind of obstacles existing testing thrust between trainer and pokemon as well their agility with trainers being allowed to use attacks to slow down competition,
-dry surface with battles taking place on grass or ground in forcing water trainers to carefully decide which pokemon to catch and how to form their team for upcoming competitions challenging their creativity and resourcefulness.

With each of this mini competitions serving as qualification in order to enter bigger, more prestige tournaments than even Whirl Cup was being hosted by water experts and what would be considered water masters such as Wallace, Lorelei from E4 or from modern times E4 Siebold.

Adding for diversity and preventing in my eyes repetition.

We can hate Showcases all we want but at least we know what Serena has to do to achieve her goal, unlike Misty, Iris, and several other main cast members who had vague goals like becoming the best *pointless occupation* in the whole wide world by spending most of their time sitting in their asses.

Considering how type master title exists even in games based on lore about Lance grandfather being elder of clan of dragon masters with every E4 member being labelled as type master(Siebold from E4 is named water master). Considering how we saw dragon master in person in this anime through Drayden fulfilling needed tasks and challenges to be recognized as eligible candidate to carry such title from people of dragon village. Or how much emphasis was given to whole Whirl islands tournament involving professor Elm in talking about its ties with water master title, whole ancient story about past trainers who mastered use of water pokemon or how often writers brought up how much this goal and water in general means to Misty. Having huge fire and determination in accomplishing it. Same goes for Iris and her desire to become dragon master.

I believe this careers had as much credibility and importance behind themselves just like Ash(even more vague goal) or contests, performance, breeder occupation etc have.

Misty or Iris are characters which may have not be enough fleshed out in goal aspect, but in emotional development and overall contribution to anime they were for better or worse active. Doing things, battling, giving us insight in their past and personal problems contributing to story and group dynamic.

And if there was present better communication and more organization from producers during those series their goals would have followed same suit as well.

 

[Matleo]

Skipping Ash's Gym battles would be pretty bad. I don't think it would be good idea. We saw some of Paul's Gym battles in DP, but not every one of them and it was easier for them to skip Paul's matches simply because he wasn't a main character. Not showing a Gym battle for a female main character would be like if they had skipped all of the battles in a Contest for May or Dawn. It would be lousy writing and I don't think people would be in favor of that either. A female rival instead of a female character who also goes after Gym badges would be a better idea.

As much as I'd like the idea of Serena becoming a Coordinator, I think doing that at this point would be pretty bad, at least from a character perspective. After all of the character development she has had and all of the determination she had for becoming Kalos Queen after not having a goal herself, I think that changing her goal again would be pretty lousy. I would have loved to see Contests return, but I don't think that they could have done that with Serena due to time given when she finally got her first Princess Key. Besides that, there's no way that she'll stay past XY. They hopefully will bring back Contests for the next series, or at least have some kind of battle active goal for the female lead to do, but it isn't going to be Serena. They'll get a new female lead that promotes the seventh generation instead of the sixth.

skiping battles was more ment for the rival.
but maybe in the next region? Misty was longer present.
Whould it be a problem to make the next games girl as Ash primary rival?
It would be once nice if Clemont , Bony and Serana could stick around for longer.

 

[Hidden Mew]

skiping battles was more ment for the rival.
but maybe in the next region? Misty was longer present.
Whould it be a problem to make the next games girl as Ash primary rival?
It would be once nice if Clemont , Bony and Serana could stick around for longer.

Skipping battles for rivals would be fine and I certainly wouldn't mind if the next game had a female character as a rival so that Ash could have one as well, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen. Clemont, Bonnie and Serena sticking around longer could be nice, but it's also just not going to happen. They wouldn't have sixth generation characters around to promote the seventh generation.

 

[Mikuri]

I assume you haven't read my first post on page 1 of this thread, but there existed actually several what I would consider highly plausible directions in which writers could've and still can take Misty and Iris careers of mastering their specific type.

I'll admit I hadn't read your first post in this thread when I wrote mine, but now that I have I must say that I still think there isn't much the writers can do with type experts.

First off, you included things like exploring Misty's fear of Bug-type Pokémon and this in no way would have helped us to better understand what it means to be a Water Pokémon Master. We're not talking about Misty's general development here, but instead about her goal. You mentioned that meeting Water-type Legendary Pokémon would be a good thing, but in my opinion this contributes to nothing. By that logic May is closer to becoming a Water Pokémon Master than Misty because she made friends with Manaphy during the events of Pokémon Ranger and the Temple of the Sea.

You also mentioned special events hosted by accomplished Trainers (I'd like to point out that May is ahead of Misty yet again because she did compete in the Wallace Cup ), and while I believe tournaments are the perfect place to see the results of a Trainer's hard work, it still wouldn't have helped Misty because she wouldn't be making real progress towards her goal. Misty has a vague occupation, she doesn't have to gather Gym Badges or Contest Ribbons or Princess Keys or Frontier Symbols, things that allow us to measure how much a character is getting closer to making their dreams come true. Misty entering a tournament hosted by Lorelei would be like Ash and Dawn entering the Hearthome City Tag Battle Competition. It is a thing that helps them because they're bonding with their Pokémon and blah blah blah, but ultimately it means nothing to their goals. They get experience, sure, they also learn things that they can use in their future Gym matches and Contest Battles, but it doesn't advance their goal.

Misty wasn't lacking one-time tournaments, in fact she had plenty of that as I'm sure that you're aware. We've seen Misty competing in things like the Queen of the Princess Festival contest (using only one Pokémon that actually belonged to her but I won't talk about that) and several other side competitions. The same can be said about Iris. She entered multiple tournaments while traveling with Ash, but how that helped her to get closer to achieving the goal she left her hometown for? It didn't do anything that contributed to her development as a Dragon Master. Did she even learn how to cover the weaknesses of Dragon-type Pokémon? No, she didn't need to because her Dragonite is apparently immune to Ice-type attacks as shown when it battled both Georgia's Beartic and Dawn's Mamoswine. In the end, all of the tournaments she has been in amounted to nothing when it comes to her goal.

For their goals to properly function, Misty and Iris needed a major competition with a collectible prize rather than these small random tournaments, but like I said in my previous post, that's just not a viable option. You think that because the Whirl Cup and a few other tournaments focusing on a specific type received positive reviews from the fans they would work if made into a major thing like Gyms and Contests, but I don't think that's the case. If you look at the review threads for episodes featuring competitions such as the Pokémon Dress-Up Contest (that one where Brock won Happiny's Egg), you'll see that people have good things to say about these sort of events, too. It is nice to see Dawn's Piplup imitating a Weedle and Ash's Pikachu doing several impressions, but imagine seeing that over and over again. It would get boring, and I don't need to see it numerous times to know that.

Not only that, but a chain of mono-type competitions doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective. These competitions wouldn't work because they wouldn't have enough people entering them. How many Trainers are interested in becoming Water Pokémon Masters? I don't think these events would attract a lot of attention. The Whirl Cup works as a standalone thing which every kind of Trainer can join, but not as a recurring competition held exclusively for people interested in a single type. Gyms and Contests (even Showcases, despite the gender restriction) work because that are several people interested in them, but that aren't many Trainers out there raising Water-type Pokémon only. It's not like in the games were most Trainers are divided by their preferred type (Swimmer, Bug Catcher, Bird Keeper, and several others). The majority of Trainers in the anime catch Pokémon regardless of their types. Raising a particular type is too specific. How would a competition work if there's not enough people entering them?

You also suggested Misty and Iris should train under the supervision of a respected Trainer in the field they're trying to specialize, and while I totally agree that such a thing would definitely help them to make some progress towards their goals, this isn't a viable option because: (a) Elite Four members don't go out on a search for promising young Trainers that can learn from them, they're not talent scouts (b) this is not a thing that would work in the anime, do you really think the writers would show an Elite Four member traveling with Ash and his friends just so they could teach Misty and Iris a few things? It works if Misty and Iris come back now to tell Ash that they've been working hard (off-screen) together with Lorelei and Lance, but it wouldn't work over the course of their respective series (c) why would Elite Four members do that? Not every Gym Leader Ash has met is this super friendly person who loves helping people and Pokémon alike, some of them are bored to death with what they do (Volkner and Skyla, for instance) and I imagine that there are Elite Four members who don't give a crap about young Trainers.

I also have a hard time picturing Misty and Iris being selected to succeed Elite Four members. If I've understood correctly, that's what you're suggesting. You think that since Elite Four members are considered to be masters of their types, they would train Misty and Iris to become masters (Elite Four members) as well. Highly unlikely. Ash is much more skilled than Misty and Iris (he was offered the chance to become a Frontier Brain, a position above Gym Leaders like Misty) and yet each time he faces off against one of the Elite Four he loses badly. He is not even close to their level. If Ash isn't being prepared to succeed anyone, why would Misty and Iris? Just because they want to? Nah.

Having said that, I do think the writers could have done a better job handling Misty and Iris' goals. Not in terms of having them entering even more random competitions, but instead showing them doing the basics, which includes catching and training Pokémon of their preferred type, teaching them moves that would be effective against Pokémon they're weak to, and devising strategies to defeat opponents that have a type advantage. It would have been so much better to see Iris training her baby Axew into a powerful battler able to defeat one of Georgia's Pokémon rather than having Axew learn Outrage out of nowhere just to win a battle Iris didn't need to in an unimportant, 16-competitor tournament which does nothing for her career and never ever use Outrage again.

 

[Shoutmon]

The thing with the E4 is that we don't even know if they are "Masters" or certain types.

Malva uses only fire type Pokemon, sure but is she a Fire Type Master? she is also a news reporter. Siebold is a chef, Shauntal is a writer,Drake is a sailor. My headcanon is that they are expectional trainers regardless of the type they use and are more similar to Ash than Iris or Misty.

 

[CrystaI]

^^ Quite an interesting insight in the difference of POV between pokemon fan 132 and Mikuri. So it actually simply breaks down to What should be done VS How it should be done.

Personally I would account both from story-writing viewpoint. In general fictional screen-writing and character design POV, regardless of it is Pokemon or not, a character aiming for a specific goal must do something in order to achieve it. But it is not helping the character to achieve that goal by simply accomplishing a list of tasks and missions, especially when that goal is vague and ambiguous without a set evaluation standard. In that case, while the character is accomplishing something, the focus should lies on how such accomplishment affecting both the character him/herself and the surrounding environment. As the title of "The Best" was never self-appointed, so no matter how much achievement one had managed to accomplished, he/she will never ever be "The Best" when there is no one viewing him/her as such. That is not only limited to Misty/Iris/Serena, but also to the very protagonist Ash Ketchum as well.

Just wanted to cite Naruto in here for reference. Uzumaki Naruto was aimed to be the best Hokage in the village of Konohakagure, because he wanted to be admitted by the villagers as he was never loved by anyone at the beginning. Well at the very end, he did managed to become the 7th Hokaga. But one should know how much difficulty he had experienced, and how much he had grew during the process in all aspects, from physical appearance, mental thinking and mind-set, skills and abilities as a ninja, and also relationships with many others. He would not had become the 7th Hokage by simply sharpening his ninja skills and powers and mental thinking, but more due to his helping of the villagers, joining to defeat the enemy and protect the village, leaving a good impression of being the "Hero", and finally admitted by the villagers that he is a reliable person.


Edit: In the hindsight, I found Pokemon anime had quite a problem in the story portrayal in the department I had mentioned above, which is it doesn't shown or poorly shown how the characters affects him/herself and the surroundings through their accomplishments, how their accomplishments reflected in their personal changes and growth. The characters are only there doing something, but very seldom learning something and causing major impact to anyone, not even to themselves. Thus it is difficult to say the main characters are advancing towards their goals.

It is also reflected in many review threads, where the audience talked mostly about what the characters had done, but talked very seldom how they had grow by accomplishing something major like winning a battle or tournament. It is only the changes are as significant as Serena cutting her hair, then people are starting to talking about how her inner self may receive changes.

 

[Matleo]

Skipping battles for rivals would be fine and I certainly wouldn't mind if the next game had a female character as a rival so that Ash could have one as well, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen. Clemont, Bonnie and Serena sticking around longer could be nice, but it's also just not going to happen. They wouldn't have sixth generation characters around to promote the seventh generation.

I thought that they should promote more the pokemon?
characters can be implemented as vilians, rivals and co.
Really? do we need every generation a new girl and a change of people?
Why then not change main character then for the next series of generations and then let both meet in the middle.
Maybne a short secondary series about a rivals journey in future, after we get full 12 generations and still fans would want more.

 

[ii kanji]

I'm also finding the current discussion quite interesting to follow, and there are elements I agree with both PF132 & Mikuri, but I do want to expand on one thing...

It's tough with Iris because there aren't many dragons and I can't think of that much which you can do with them, however I do feel that there was/would be scope to make the water pokemon specialisation a proper goal. Even if we say that a trinket quest is the only way to make it real (for the purposes of pokemon, I agree with this sentiment), an ongoing water-based competition would be feasible IMO because:
a. water type pokemon are the most populous,
b. there are quite a few water pokemon specialists,
c. water, the sea, rivers, the mysteries of the deep blue .etc are hugely diverse and potentially very pleasing to the eye - there is a huge variety you could do with it.

I don't see why one (or more) of the important water pokemon trainers (what about Mikuri?!) wouldn't set up something of this ilk to encourage the next generation. Because of the diversity of the type, I also think it wouldn't be too hard to convince viewers that there were a number of trainers who were interested in water pokemon exclusively. Such a competition could combine battling with contest/tripokalon style elements to make it obviously different from the gym badge quest.

But obviously Shudo didn't think of this so all that potential went to waste! They should have hired me...

I agree RE Kasumi not being remotely close to Elite 4 level, in fact it's hard to believe she's even a gym leader considering how good these have tended to be in the anime (can't comment on Iris as I haven't seen v much of her), but ultimately in a lot of ways her character/ability was sacrificed in those early years to make Satoshi look good. I think aspiring to become an Elite 4 level specialist trainer would have been an excellent ambition but laughable in the actual circumstances. Sigh.

 

[pokemon fan 132]

I'll admit I hadn't read your first post in this thread when I wrote mine, but now that I have I must say that I still think there isn't much the writers can do with type experts.

First off, you included things like exploring Misty's fear of Bug-type Pokémon and this in no way would have helped us to better understand what it means to be a Water Pokémon Master. We're not talking about Misty's general development here, but instead about her goal. You mentioned that meeting Water-type Legendary Pokémon would be a good thing, but in my opinion this contributes to nothing.

Keep in mind how someone who strives to master use of certain type should have no prejudices and double standards about specie of pokemon he/she would wanna use. Its expected from master of specific type to understand ins and outs to in Misty case of water pokemon learning as much as he can about them and perfecting their use to be of biggest value.

Proof to that can be found both in Whirl islands when it was brought by sea priestess Maya how sea heroes which is convoluted form of water master (Japanese name for them) learned how to develop emotional link to water pokemon using them to full potential. But in Iris dragon master career as well for which it was said how dragon master needs to learn how to reach to dragon hearts and synchronize with that specie in becoming like one.

So how would exploring on Misty fear from bugs helped her in coming closer toward water master?
Simple, as long she has formed such prejudices about pokemon with look deciding what kind of reaction she will have, is holding her back on road of becoming water master .

And as such Pokémon with either unorthodox designs like Binnacle or even worse Surskit which is half bug would confront her ideals and thoughts. Bringing her to a wall in how much becoming recognized water master truly means to her facing dilemma and selfquestioning within herself in case of meeting Surskit . Fighting between her love for water pokemon wanting to approach it and other side which cant stand bugs or has preconcepotion and fears about opokemon which may seem unappealing in looks to her.

Purpose behind trying to get over fears and such formed prejudices would allow her to become more tolerant and open toward all kind of water pokemon viewing them as equal and unique in her own eyes pushing her forward in becoming renowned and honored water expert.

Same applies to scenario of meeting legendary water pokemon because it would allow Misty to learn ore about water specie mysteries, their flaws and strength and how to bring best out of such pokemon on surface. Which is again something expected from type masters in knowing to do.

Not being secret how Misty expressed several times desire and ambition to meet legendary and rare water pokemon comprehending their nature. Allowing her to gain answers to her questions much more from legendary, rather than regular water type.

Because both in Iris and Misty case there was always present accent on learning how to bring secret, full strength of specific pokemon type on surface. In connect with them on closer level than its case with regular trainers and understand fully their nature, importance for ecosystem and both strength and weaknesses than its required for regular trainers, coordinators, connoisseurs and what not.

Since from pokemon type masters its expected to turn battling with them in art to point of concepts like type advantage, disadvantage not being relevant anymore when being engaged in battle. I being able to read their pokemon so well that they are both being directly engaged in battle through emotional connection(something Ash is on his way as well with Greninja in learning how to master use of pokemon) and knowing them be ordinary trainer could their own pokemon. Reaching near perfection in using specific type.

By that logic May is closer to becoming a Water Pokémon Master than Misty because she made friends with Manaphy during the events of Pokémon Ranger and the Temple of the Sea.

That's irrelevant since May doesn't strive in becoming water master and becoming friends with legendary pokemon isn't same as coming to understand their secrets and how to use specie they represent to maximum of their abilities.

You also mentioned special events hosted by accomplished Trainers (I'd like to point out that May is ahead of Misty yet again because she did compete in the Wallace Cup ), and while I believe tournaments are the perfect place to see the results of a Trainer's hard work, it still wouldn't have helped Misty because she wouldn't be making real progress towards her goal. Misty has a vague occupation, she doesn't have to gather Gym Badges or Contest Ribbons or Princess Keys or Frontier Symbols, things that allow us to measure how much a character is getting closer to making their dreams come true. Misty entering a tournament hosted by Lorelei would be like Ash and Dawn entering the Hearthome City Tag Battle Competition. It is a thing that helps them because they're bonding with their Pokémon and blah blah blah, but ultimately it means nothing to their goals. They get experience, sure, they also learn things that they can use in their future Gym matches and Contest Battles, but it doesn't advance their goal.

You see in Misty case if its water themed competition it would help. Because it was proved through Whirl Cup how competing in such tournaments and winning them would bring her closer toward title of water master. With whole prize of acquiring title "Alpha Omega of water pokemon" winner of such tournament gains being heavily implied and indicated to draw connections to whole water pokemon master title. Connection which we never saw further explained leaving many questions unanswered out of what writers started since Misty was replaced.
You don't need better and stronger proof than that.

But even if its regular tournament not limited to use of one type, as long its hosted by strong and respected figure proving its worth in use of specific type(like E4 are) it would still play highly important factor in advancing Misty dreams and career as whole. Since through such event she would have opportunity to demonstrate her knowledge, creativity and skill to wider group of people and water specialists all around the world in gaining acquired credibility and reputation in making name for herself. Building her way up in becoming accepted as strongest water trainer in world and water master ultimately by leaving positive impression in eyes of elite water trainers.

Opening possibility to both learn about more complex, creative ways of battling through such tournaments and be accepted as someone apprentice eventually in gaining required sympathy and benevolence from elite trainer. Based on how many competitions Misty and Iris would enter and what kind of results they would have behind themselves.

Misty wasn't lacking one-time tournaments, in fact she had plenty of that as I'm sure that you're aware. We've seen Misty competing in things like the Queen of the Princess Festival contest (using only one Pokémon that actually belonged to her but I won't talk about that) and several other side competitions. The same can be said about Iris. She entered multiple tournaments while traveling with Ash, but how that helped her to get closer to achieving the goal she left her hometown for? It didn't do anything that contributed to her development as a Dragon Master. Did she even learn how to cover the weaknesses of Dragon-type Pokémon? No, she didn't need to because her Dragonite is apparently immune to Ice-type attacks as shown when it battled both Georgia's Beartic and Dawn's Mamoswine. In the end, all of the tournaments she has been in amounted to nothing when it comes to her goal.

Yes its unfortunate how this characters received shorter end of stick in their goals being less fleshed out compared to May or Dawn, something i elaborated upon as far as background reasons from real life go behind this in my posts on second page of this thread. And why there wasn't more competitions they entered which would be directly or at very least indirectly tied to careers they pursued and wanted to achieve.

Not like entering tournaments and events not related to their dreams was bad persay, because if anything it helped them to gain more experience and so did their pokemon in becoming stronger(admittedly more so in Misty case since Iris pokemon experienced strange fluctuations of power in becoming either weak or strong over night due to inconsistent writing).

Most importantly like I said before, as far as having tournaments related to type master title in helping you to come closer toward that story goes. Iris was in unfavorable position simply because of dragon type not having rich enough pool of options to create substantial filled with diversity storytelling(something which is possible with Misty since she's using water pokemon being along with normal only 2 enough widespread and diverse types to logistically support such project).

Therefore writers aim with Iris quest was focused on having her involved within incontinent dragons trying to learn how to train them and understand through interactions and attempts of helping them out. By having Iris meet other dragon specialists and take advices. Entering events not necessarily tied with her career through which she could train and learn how to synchronize with her pokemon through battle overcoming their differences. Like whole Dragonite thing and Junior Cup. And for same reason her goal was given relatively simple route requiring only to evolve Axew and learn to understand dragon feelings primarily.

With incoherent and poor results, but that's beside the point not being relevant for this subject.

While in Misty case aside from having to learn how to synchronize with water pokemon in working like one learning how to understand their emotions and use them in most productive way(mega evolution interestingly enough opens door toward deeper development in that aspect). Writers also made sure to put much higher emphasis and accent on her water master career also requiring to become strongest water trainer in world, implied how it means reaching E4 level with Misty both in anime and games idolizing Lorelei from E4 wanting to reach such strength and reputation. As well introducing water related competitions showing through some like Whirl Cup how by winning them you can work your way forward in becoming water master.

In comparison for Iris there was never put much emphasis on strength, but more so on establishing close bond with dragons following teachings from people in dragon village indicating how dragon master and water master career involve different paths to follow in reaching such title. Hence lack of any dragon based events presented even as one of thing.

For their goals to properly function, Misty and Iris needed a major competition with a collectible prize rather than these small random tournaments, but like I said in my previous post, that's just not a viable option. You think that because the Whirl Cup and a few other tournaments focusing on a specific type received positive reviews from the fans they would work if made into a major thing like Gyms and Contests, but I don't think that's the case. If you look at the review threads for episodes featuring competitions such as the Pokémon Dress-Up Contest (that one where Brock won Happiny's Egg), you'll see that people have good things to say about these sort of events, too. It is nice to see Dawn's Piplup imitating a Weedle and Ash's Pikachu doing several impressions, but imagine seeing that over and over again. It would get boring, and I don't need to see it numerous times to know that.

To be fair whether something has potential to work in someone book or not largely depends on how he/she already pictured certain idea in its mind. And whether through your own imagination that would look as somethin boring or interesting , leading thus yourself by prejudices formed about it.

Not being objective in evaluation in such case and that would fall under domain of "argument from personal incredulity".

Now some could say im doing same thing in using circular reasoning, but im not saying how mono tournaments in higher quantity than just being one of thing would b e either fun or stale.
What im saying is how they have potential to be fun and entertaining satisfying thirst and needs from audience to who your trying to present certain product.

If they are:
A) done in way so that each competition involves different tasks and objective to overcome with one being about racing, other about underwater battles where you have to take in account pressure and density of water in environment where battle is taking place with aquatic pokemon having chance to shine best in there.
Third about using dry land putting importance on use of amphibious or with flying abilities water pokemon. Fourth in having tournament like Whirl Cup backed with engaging backstory present behind it making fans learn more about whole type master title.

B) there is put emphasize on importance in catching specific type of water pokemon with wrongly formed team putting you in unfavorable position. for whatever challenge you would face.
Fact how water pokemon is paired with literally every other pokemon type by now(including fire as of recently) males such task even harder due to sheer number of options and diversity in how colorful you can make pokemon team despite using only water pokemon.

C) like its recipe for any successful story there is present drama, struggling , emotion and internal logic present behind character motives. Putting him in morally demanding situations and through both wins and failures invoke among audience sympathy and interest in feeling invested in its story and where would path lead him.

Talking about goal progression , because in personality development, backstory, palette of expressions displayed in feelings expressed toward other characters and lively spirit Misty already succeeded in that department to make viewers feel sorry for her feeling like she emotionally grew through journey.

To sum it up, if there exists enough creativity and passion injected into story, than yes I believe mono based competitions can work just fine. Providing original and fresh entirely new way to showcase pokemon and their trainers in action serving as nice break from regular and standard gym battles.

If anything there is more you can do with such competitions than its case with pokemon performance. In being less limited due to both genders being allowed to compete increasing variety of competition and involving battling and action packed scenes. Raising up on suspense.

Not only that, but a chain of mono-type competitions doesn't make sense from an in-universe perspective. These competitions wouldn't work because they wouldn't have enough people entering them. How many Trainers are interested in becoming Water Pokémon Masters? I don't think these events would attract a lot of attention. The Whirl Cup works as a standalone thing which every kind of Trainer can join, but not as a recurring competition held exclusively for people interested in a single type. Gyms and Contests (even Showcases, despite the gender restriction) work because that are several people interested in them, but that aren't many Trainers out there raising Water-type Pokémon only. It's not like in the games were most Trainers are divided by their preferred type (Swimmer, Bug Catcher, Bird Keeper, and several others). The majority of Trainers in the anime catch Pokémon regardless of their types. Raising a particular type is too specific. How would a competition work if there's not enough people entering them?

Your again committing logical fallacy mate resorting to generalization and conditional probabilities. Since your taking in account only what was showed to exist in pokemon world presented through eyes of one individual Ash Ketchum and his journey of becoming pokemon master. Or in May/Dawn case being showed fraction of what makes pokemon world in giving us insight in coordinators life and way things function for them.

But pokemon world is so much more than that . There exists millions of all kind of occupations, all kind of careers and trainers. All kind of different ways in which pokemon are trained and used. With there existing numerous stories and potential careers which were never given chance to be explored, not because of not existing. But because of not having chance to be explored and showcased yet, as such showing to viewers different side of pokemon planet and what does it represent.

When taking in account how there exists 89 so far officially known gym leaders in anime. 55 are those coming from games, rest are anime exclusive. With big majority having trainers who dedicate their life and energy in specializing in specific pokemon type. All E4 members and sometime even champions like Wallace. Who once again represent trainers who decided to train only one pokemon specie primarily in becoming as best and recognized in world as they can as mono trainers. Which is admiring and much more challenging thing to do than by packing yourself with all kind of pokemon types to confront type disadvantage.

Or several trainers we saw when Misty was still in main cast. Trainers who were water specialist training, catching and battling solely with this type having similar aspirations as Misty did. Like Marina from Orange Islands, Andreas from Seaking contest mocking Misty for having in his eyes mess of water pokemon team. Trinity who was confirmed to be water trainer, or Harrison and Dorian Misty faced.

Than its rather naive to think how there wouldn't exist "enough" trainers of single type to provide enough resources in supporting such kind of tournaments.

Whirl Cup was in essence tournament reserved for water trainers as well, but it was open to any other trainer who has enough water pokemon and wants to try himself in demonstrating knowledge and expertize in using pokemon which stands up for one of most important and essential things for life on any planet(water),.

Hence why Ash entered it, just like he entered contests(Brock did too) regardless of majority competitors in such competitions being mainly coordinators.

Same applies to Whirl Cup where most competitors were water specialists based on what was showed and statement how this tournament is held once every 3 years gathering water trainers from all parts of world.

Having pretty large competition rivaling regional league by initially entering over 200 competitors when we count preliminary rounds. Serving purpose of thinning competition so that only best 64 would advance to 6 final rounds divided in 6 days held on main stadium.

Leading us to conclusion how there exists several people in pokemon world who train and catch mainly one pokemon type, people who just like Misty and Iris want to become masters of specific type, with only reason why we dont see them coming from especially now that Misty and Iris are gone. Not having trainers in main cast or pokemon story with such desires and dreams, hence why writers don't have obligation or any reason to show us anything more than narrow and limited insight in pokemon world pertaining to Ash and whatever his current companions are stories.

With any other career and stories not being allowed to breathe and be explored if no one in main cast would receive benefit from it.

Same can be said for pokemon contest in not being showed if were gonna look at things from in universe point of view first time in Kanto when Ash just started out. For simple reason of contests and coordinators not having anything of value to provide to Ash and his current companions at that point and time, Just to turn out during Ash second visit to Kanto when May was main character how Kanto is filled with pokemon contests already having tradition behind themselves.

You also suggested Misty and Iris should train under the supervision of a respected Trainer in the field they're trying to specialize, and while I totally agree that such a thing would definitely help them to make some progress towards their goals, this isn't a viable option because: (a) Elite Four members don't go out on a search for promising young Trainers that can learn from them, they're not talent scouts (b) this is not a thing that would work in the anime, do you really think the writers would show an Elite Four member traveling with Ash and his friends just so they could teach Misty and Iris a few things? It works if Misty and Iris come back now to tell Ash that they've been working hard (off-screen) together with Lorelei and Lance, but it wouldn't work over the course of their respective series (c) why would Elite Four members do that? Not every Gym Leader Ash has met is this super friendly person who loves helping people and Pokémon alike, some of them are bored to death with what they do (Volkner and Skyla, for instance) and I imagine that there are Elite Four members who don't give a crap about young Trainers.

I also have a hard time picturing Misty and Iris being selected to succeed Elite Four members. If I've understood correctly, that's what you're suggesting. You think that since Elite Four members are considered to be masters of their types, they would train Misty and Iris to become masters (Elite Four members) as well. Highly unlikely. Ash is much more skilled than Misty and Iris (he was offered the chance to become a Frontier Brain, a position above Gym Leaders like Misty) and yet each time he faces off against one of the Elite Four he loses badly. He is not even close to their level. If Ash isn't being prepared to succeed anyone, why would Misty and Iris? Just because they want to? Nah.

What im suggesting is either working on becoming E4 members one day by passing tasks, battling some sort of evaluators sanctioned by pokemon league or ranking their way up in becoming recognized and acknowledged enough to come in consideration of being offered such position few years from now. As we know there exists alternate ways to qualify for pokemon league without collecting badges, so logic implies there may exist other ways to become E4 member too.

Second option is indeed in E4 members recognizing potential and desired battling spirit, flare and determination to reach heights of elite trainers inside Misty or Iris. Deciding to take them as their apprentice working under their custody to become E4 members in future taking over places of their mentors.

Thus making storyline extended over the pokemon series in Misty and Iris facing struggles, dilemma if they have required strength and skill to reach such heights self questioning if they truly want to be type masters underpinning their motives behind such decision and having palpable way through which viewers could see them building their way forward.

In this scenario there seem to exist some misunderstanding, because what your bringing up is ending product. Final destination Misty or Iris would reach through such plot in becoming E4 members or their students.

That would be end game play out, basically closure to started plots, stories and flaws this characters would need to overcome.

Im talking about making storyline to get there while they're presented on screen getting active focus. In constructing arc of training, entering elemental tournaments(whether its extension of Whirl Cup revealing more on what water master means or something completely different) and working on becoming E4 apprentice by fighting in earning their attention and leaving positive impression of other high class trainers who could recommend them to such authorities.

Similar how Serena caught interest of highly famous figure in pokemon performance circles(Palermo/Yashio), in how champion Alder saw potential in iris character. In how Ash earned benevolence and positive view on his skills from E4 members or other highly experienced trainers over the years etc.

Which is where whole concept of Misty or Iris battling in tournaments hosted by masters of type they specialize in or making their way in becoming recognized and known worldwide for their talent and potential would come in play. In finding their way through promising results to catch interest among such E4 figures and if they are worth their time and energy in wanting to pass what they learned on them. Hence why entering and making remarkable results in tournaments tied to their dreams and pokemon types Misty or Iris utilize would be of help in advancing their dreams. Being either ticket in becoming E4 apprentice or build their way forward in coming closer toward title of type master of were talking about element tournaments focused on water, fire, air etc.

Ash as character and how would this make him look in comparison is pointless and irrelevant to this subject. Because
Misty or Iris who would be taken as apprentice or at least be took in consideration wouldn't suddenly surpass Ash credibility and reputation as trainer("God forbid that any of his companions is more successful than him"), let alone achieve something faster or superior to Ash. Because on paper Ash topping at regional leagues, becoming champion of OI or winning whole Battle Frontier still is more impressive than someone becoming student to trainer expert.

Especially when Ash training under E4 would benefit him far less than Misty or Iris who wants to master use of specific pokemon type and realize how to connect with such pokemon on deeper, more eclectic level. With Ash goals involving becoming much stronger and far above than E4 members, rather than only reaching their level.

As long Misty or Iris wouldn't become E4 before Ash wins league, beat E4 and champion going forward in master career of becoming best there would be no discrepancy present in skill level and thus present to writers issue of such act overshadowing main hero of this anime.

If anything by having traveling companion in main cast who enters special tasks and challenges to either become E4 or first E4 student serving as springboard toward eventually reaching desired position would not only help that character(like Misty or Iris is). But it would also be of meaningful value for Ash character and story as well since his own career is connected to challenging and defeating E4 members. Giving him invaluable experience and insight to see E4 strength and weaknesses, what kind of strategy they use and procedure in how can someone reach such position through alternative ways.

To better prepare himself for time when he finally goes to officially challenge them as part of his quest in conquering champion league making giant leap forward on road of becoming pokemon master.


Statements of whether E4 members would even want to invest their time and knowledge in teaching younger generation is not only irrelevant to this discussion not having anything to do with potential directions through which Misty or Iris dreams could be explored more. But is also form of hasty generalization and jumping to conclusions without taking in account how way this characters would behave and if they would want to train any of main characters depends on writers motives and how creative they are in developing plausible development out of it.

If such high level trainers would indeed be portrayed by writers side as irreverent and disinterested in wanting to have anything to do with young trainers and potential strong experts in making, than even BETTER.

Because instead of having relatively simplified and with kiddy pool depth storytelling problem, you would through such approach add much needed complexity and substance to whole development either Misty or Iris would have went through. In being underestimated, not taken easily and imposing on them complex of starting to think how problem may be in them in failing to attract their attention staggering thus their confidence and faith in accomplishing their careers and path they set to follow. Showing to viewers their struggles, vulnerabilities and fears going inside them, having to come to realization what should be their priorities in life and decision to work hard in gaining E4 members or highly renowned experts sympathy.

Nicely rounding whole journey and growth through thematic significance present behind everything.

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I agree RE Kasumi not being remotely close to Elite 4 level, in fact it's hard to believe she's even a gym leader considering how good these have tended to be in the anime (can't comment on Iris as I haven't seen v much of her), but ultimately in a lot of ways her character/ability was sacrificed in those early years to make Satoshi look good. I think aspiring to become an Elite 4 level specialist trainer would have been an excellent ambition but laughable in the actual circumstances. Sigh.

Well to be fair contrary to popular belief Misty wasn't weak trainer at all. I mean i don't consider someone who got recognized for her adaptability and skills by several professionals out there(like Trinity and Harrison, gym leader Dorian, Pia inspector Joy who complimented how talented and resourceful she is for such a young age, Marina, Koga etc) as pushover trainer. Someone who was one of few companions defeating Ash in legit battle, won Princess tournament, Seaking championship, placed top 8 in prestige event like Whirl Cup as. Or someone who had lot of understanding and wisdom about pokemon knowing how to reach giant Tentacruel heart stopping him from destroying town, using skillfully wild Golduck in battle, earned Marill thrust after saving its life and later Gyarados.

Heck unlike Brock who is older and has more experience in training pokemon and as gym leader, Misty was actually capable of holding her own against Molly during their battle in third poke movie with her Staryu being so well trained and flexible that it was on pair with artificial mirage pokemon like Mantine. Who were several times stronger than their normal counterparts.

It just happens most fans don't remember any of Misty battles or very little at all, hence the relatively poor image they have about her trainer abilities.

Now Misty definitely isn't E4 material right now, but I still think becoming E4 apprentice in her age learning about more innovative and complex battling strategies under their guidance would be plausible, so that Misty could after few years when she reach her teenager years become E4 herself(first female E4 utilizing water pokemon). Essentially becoming water master and recognized as one of best water experts out there.