• A new LGBTQ+ forum is now being trialed and there have been changes made to the Support and Advice forum. To read more about these updates, click here.
  • Hey Trainers! Be sure to check out Corsola Beach, our newest section on the forums, in partnership with our friends at Corsola Cove! At the Beach, you can discuss the competitive side of the games, post your favorite Pokemon memes, and connect with other Pokemon creators!
  • Due to the recent changes with Twitter's API, it is no longer possible for Bulbagarden forum users to login via their Twitter account. If you signed up to Bulbagarden via Twitter and do not have another way to login, please contact us here with your Twitter username so that we can get you sorted.

How Much More Fleshed Out Could Misty, Iris, and Serena's Goals Have Went/Be?

Why could they not keep her, Eric, and Rachel on the show. Now they're based in LA and Eric is retired so that is never gonna change anytime soon unless they jumped through hoops for it. I mean I hear how MLP is scratch track dubbed with someone filling in for Twilight/Tara Strong though that is a western based animation so its probably different for that scenario. Yet why don't they have some form of parallel in recent Pokemon dubs for XY if they can afford to redub soundtracks that most find lacking and poor in comparison to the original. I can find the replacements to be good on their own roles yet not as replacements for the original charm of the main characters they replaced when it came to Ash and J&J which is all most really want to hear out of them in Pokemon while COTD and recurring can be voiced by anyone else. Still that's just some disappointment over PUSA replacements that linger.
Please refrain from using this thread to voice dislikes or to make comments about the voice actors themselves, let's return to the topic at hand.
 
Please refrain from using this thread to voice dislikes or to make comments about the voice actors themselves, let's return to the topic at hand.

My bad, I should've posted more on the subject. In particular I feel that while Misty had a vaguely broad goal just as Iris in a similar sense to master Water types. There was a personal inner reason why she wanted to prove herself as Cerulean City's gym leader as its Water-type Pokemon trainer. Since her sisters overshadowed her in several ways throughout her life where they explicitly consider her not to be part of the "Sensational Sisters", or whatever Japanese equivalent was used, and had been more focused on their water shows she had Pokemon training as her output in order for her to stand out among her older sisters. With that since the beginning there was always a personal connection as to why we wanted to see Misty to continue along with Ash's journey to master Water pokemon. Yet with Iris there established personal connection seemed to fall flat since she lacked the traits we saw in Misty as we see in her. I mean she was always the wild child she was at the start since we see her having never adapted to school or city life and preferred to spend her time understanding wild Pokemon to the point she had a starter caught on her own. Yet that never really told us why she desired to understand or admired Dragon-Type Pokemon aside from her ability to understand them as she's shown. It didn't feel developed enough from her PoV to make an interesting plot that invested me when watching since her Axew was relagated to static mascot status with no evolution or scarce focus on Dragon-Type world building. Though I will give props to how her story with Excadril turned out. I still have to say that the missing home life that came from Misty is what caused me to not empathize as easily with Iris in BW.

As for May & Dawn; Both their arcs managed to feel concluded, though I wanted more development for Dawn even if her Pokestylist career was foreshadowed with her basic hobby of dressing buneary in her own custom made vest and the hearthome dressing episode. Also I wished that May hadn't lost as horribly in the Kanto Grand festival. And while it took Serena to shape up a goal they addressed it and allowed her to develop into finding a purpose in Showcases while managing to give her a great connection with the few Pokemon she has caught. As for her conclusion that will be up to the writers to decide and us to judge at the time.
 
I don't like "x Type Master" because they glorify one type aboove others. With Iris especially, I feel like the writers tried too hard to make dragons more special than other Pokemon.
 
Last edited:
The OS was focused solely on Ash, the writers never intended Misty or Brock to get a lot of screentime or focus. With BW being a throwback to the OS, it was a similar deal for Iris and Cilan, although they got slightly more battle screentime due to the Don battle tournaments and Cilan himself being more active than Brock was in general.

Basically the writers decide before the character is introduced what kind of screentime they'll get. May, Dawn and Serena being the playable female leads from the games obviously puts them on higher priority than tag along Gym leaders. Its been this way since AG, so it should be common knowledge by now.
 
I really don't understand what they've done with Serrena. I mean they took ages for her thinking about she wanted her goal to be, and then in the end they settled with some sexist rip off of Pokemon contests. (sexist because it's females only and enforces stereotypical gender roles on woman such as baking, dressing up and removes all element of battling, leaving that for the boys)

I mean why not have her wonder aimlessly for a bit, and then with the release of ORAS have her do full Contests like May and Dawn? Pokemon Showcases are so dull not to mention the voting seems to bare no correlation to the actual performances themselves.

I liked how with May and Dawn they made Contests a big deal, it was a whole equally viable path to be a coordinator instead of or as well as a trainer.

I liked Misty and Iris focusing on their types, I just wish they had some way of achieving the goal, maybe someone already established as master of their respective types for them to aspire to be like, or to beat. Maybe the Whirl Islands thing could have awarded the title Misty was after instead of some strange little spin off.
 
The OS was focused solely on Ash, the writers never intended Misty or Brock to get a lot of screentime or focus. With BW being a throwback to the OS, it was a similar deal for Iris and Cilan, although they got slightly more battle screentime due to the Don battle tournaments and Cilan himself being more active than Brock was in general.

Basically the writers decide before the character is introduced what kind of screentime they'll get. May, Dawn and Serena being the playable female leads from the games obviously puts them on higher priority than tag along Gym leaders. Its been this way since AG, so it should be common knowledge by now.

It played factor, but it wasn't really the only reason behind Misty or Iris careers not receiving proper care and attention. Which seem to be prevailing opinion among pokemon fandom.

Because its no secret that even among supporting characters there existed huge discrepancy in how much someone received spotlight compared to others during history of pokemon. With girls in general regardless of their status in games still always getting more development, battling screentime and exploration compared to male companions.

And if Kalos was something to go by, being protagonist in games doesn't guarantee you will always and all the time get more than someone whose origins are of gym leader in games. As XY saga first year showed us with Clemont getting more development and focus and it wasn't even by a small margin compared to Serena.

Even if we take in equation status in games and there being envisioned less attention for them to receive in show compared to playable characters, coefficient of available screentime and ways to develop characters like Misty or Iris is still far more than what they got in end.

Misty was in even more favorable position than Iris in pushing her water dream further in comparison. Because element she used was much more abundant in resources and versatile compared to most other pokemon species out there, especially dragons given their rarity.
Posessing required logistic to create whole chain of water related competitions and more cohesive progression on her voyage of becoming master of water pokemon. Whirl Cup as Atsuhiro Tomioka creation and side water related events like Alto mare Race or Seaking contest were promising showing how there existed developed ideas in making this viable.

Either through further exploration from what Whirl Cup started or taking advantage of Misty idolizing E4 members wishing to reach their level giving enough material for sequel and whole story arc made out of it.

We already know how something not existing in games isn't impediment, because pokemon performance Serena pursue just like Misty/Iris career is anime exclusive(even to bigger extent since in games at least title of dragon, water master was revealed to exist), yet characteristics of on going quest were able to be implemented on screen.

But why this didn't happen?
In Misty and Iris case they came from pokemon era when there existed lot more friction and lack of organization between writers compared to relatively peceful and well established period in AG and DP when May or Dawn were main characters.

Because its worth taking in account how in both girls gym leaders other extenuating circumstances and factors played large role in how much exactly focus and development their water or dragon master goals would in end get.

In Iris case her mistreatment of dragon master career had very little to do with pokemon staff writing skills or her position of NPC character in games.

Because this same writers also handled unusually poorly groups pokemon and Ash Unova team. Gave us badly written rivalries turning Bianca, Cabernet, Trip etc in jokes. Unova league was pretty disastreous followed by even bigger travesty called Decolora islands. Which had no direction to take characters forward or any meaning put to it.

Regressed Ash in maturity and battling abilities.

Its not just Iris story which suffered. Everyone were mishandled in Unova making it seem like staff just gave up from putting more energy and passion in story at some point.

In Misty case there existed other factors which influenced largely how much attention she would got.Coming from time when originally it wasn't even clear if Pokemon will last just for Kanto(initially that was supposed to be only season in this show).
Writers were much more inexperienced and unsure in what direction to take anime and Misty character.

They had creativity and tools to do way more about it. But disorganization between staff, mr. Shudo frustration of not being allowed to write for pokemon in way he wanted giving up and lack of consensus was what sabotaged Misty goal during Johto where things escalated.
Until mr, Tomioka and others put their heads together in Master Quest beginning to adequatelly handle Johto saga and Misty character in there.


Ditto Original series were more so focused on adventure aspect, friendship, development of human feelings and personalities accompanied with writers experimenting with their ideas. And much less on battling, progression of dreams, training etc.

Hence why Misty received lot of personality growth, attention to her development of friendship with others along with confronting her past fears, but in career sense alot was left to be desired.

So theres that as well.

II liked Misty and Iris focusing on their types, I just wish they had some way of achieving the goal, maybe someone already established as master of their respective types for them to aspire to be like, or to beat. Maybe the Whirl Islands thing could have awarded the title Misty was after instead of some strange little spin off.

Well if it means something in Misty case during Whirl islands and Whirl Cup it was established how there exists connection between water pokemon master title and Alpha Omega of water pokemon name winner of Whirl Cup receives. Indicating how by winning that tournament and obtaining such title would bring you closer toward achievement of water pokemon master posiution.
We never got further follow up on that for understandable reasons though. Due to Misty being replaced.

Also for both her and Iris as i said before its interesting in least hand how pretty much every E4 member in games is marked as type master. Being even mentioned in games how Lance grandfather is elder of famous clan of dragon pokemon masters for example.
 
Last edited:
The Whirl Cup probably should have been an arc for Misty that went on the entire span of Johto (like the Contests do) instead of only being a 2 episode tournament that it was. Like she would have to win at previous water competitions first before she could enter the Whirl Cup, etc.

Obviously the writers just didn't think of it at the time. The concept of giving a female character more screentime probably wasn't decided till the games started adding playable female companions, something even the original Gold/Silver games did not have.
 
The Whirl Cup probably should have been an arc for Misty that went on the entire span of Johto (like the Contests do) instead of only being a 2 episode tournament that it was. Like she would have to win at previous water competitions first before she could enter the Whirl Cup, etc.

Obviously the writers just didn't think of it at the time. The concept of giving a female character more screentime probably wasn't decided till the games started adding playable female companions, something even the original Gold/Silver games did not have.

The "Water Master Goal" is not the reason why people remember Kasumi. I would say it is one of the most forgettable aspects of her.
People remember her because of her tsundere personality, Psyduck and Togepi and because the ship her with Satoshi.
 
People remember her because of her tsundere personality, Psyduck and Togepi and because the ship her with Satoshi.
I don't want to come between you and your gross generalisation (which in this case is shaky at best) so I'd just add that maybe people would have remembered her water pokemon master goal a little more if she'd had a chance to do something with it!
 
I don't want to come between you and your gross generalisation (which in this case is shaky at best) so I'd just add that maybe people would have remembered her water pokemon master goal a little more if she'd had a chance to do something with it!

I agree and I wasn't saying that as something bad!! any reason for a character to be memorable is valid.
 
They also should have just let Misty have Totodile in Johto instead of Ash. Totodile turned out to be Ash's weakest water pokemon and he barely did anything with it, but with Misty it could have been a bit more memorable.

I always thought it was rather odd Misty only captured 1 pokemon for the entire span of Johto (Corsola) and she didn't get that till Johto was more than halfway over. Seriously, the writers even stopped letting Misty capture new pokemon. She could have gotten Wooper, Chinchou, Totodile, and other Johto water pokemon but they had her get nothing till Corsola.

I think Misty only capturing 1 pokemon for a 156 episode arc was literally the longest span a character went without getting a new pokemon. Bizarre.
 
I think Misty only capturing 1 pokemon for a 156 episode arc was literally the longest span a character went without getting a new pokemon. Bizarre.
Yeah that was absolute pants (I remember watching the episode with Chinchou when Johto first aired in the UK & being desperate for Misty to catch it!) But I need to correct the stat here as I believe Musashi's gap between AG 14 (when she caught Kemusso) and DP 80 (Yanyanma), a period spanning 358 episodes by my calculation, is by far and away the longest gap between captures.
 
Ah yeah, I was really only thinking about Ash's group when I said that. TR is a different case because they usually only have 2-3 pokemon each for an entire saga.

Misty's pokemon handing in Johto was rather odd. She keeps Goldeen and Staryu with her when they could have been left at the Gym to free up space for new pokemon, and Psyduck/Togepi's running gags more or less got stale in Johto after seeing them for so many times. Psyduck didn't even pop out of its ball much in Johto at all, I remember we went long gaps without even seeing Psyduck by then. About the only pokemon they handled well was Poliwag and its evolutions. Poliwhirl was my favorite Pokemon of Misty's besides Psyduck.

Its too bad really. They should have evolved Togepi in Johto and let it stay on her team as a Togetic (instead of Togepi doing nothing for 200 eps), had her capture a Wooper or Chinchou, maybe even give her Totodile instead of Ash, and so forth.

Its pretty funny when you stop to think about how many water pokemon there actually are, and how Misty only has like 5% of them.
 
I always thought it was rather odd Misty only captured 1 pokemon for the entire span of Johto (Corsola) and she didn't get that till Johto was more than halfway over. Seriously, the writers even stopped letting Misty capture new pokemon. She could have gotten Wooper, Chinchou, Totodile, and other Johto water pokemon but they had her get nothing till Corsola.

I think Misty only capturing 1 pokemon for a 156 episode arc was literally the longest span a character went without getting a new pokemon. Bizarre.

To be fair how many did Brock got? How many of Ash pokemon evolved there? How rarely did rivals in general appeared?

It wasn't just Misty with who mistakes were done and when taking in account lack of communication being present between head writer at that time and rest of pokemon staff as i brought up in previous post resulting in original plans for that saga being dropped in water(like 3rd movie idea, GS ball, TR bigger involvement etc). Or writers themselves not being sure in what way to take story , than i believe it can be forgiven and understood why Misty water career wasn't adequately handled in there. Especially in being first female they wrote for breaking ice with her.

That said at least Master Quest did nice justice to her ideals and dreams. In exploring more proficiently her water master quest through amazing lore Whirl islands introduced. Misty realizing what water pokemon means to her reassuring herself how this is goal she wants to pursue in life. Making amends with her prejudices accepting Psyduck unconditionally in even risking her life(like in Dorian episode) etc.

Not to mention in whole Johto at least we saw her maturing, becoming more open minded and confident as person reaching new dimension to her fiery personality. As lot of conflicts fermented inside her regarding Ash, her pokemon, older sisters etc.

Although admittedly Misty catching more pokemon(i recall she wanted several like Wooper, Chinchau, Lanturn, Teddiursa etc). Seeing writers explore more on possibility of rivalry being born between her and other trainers (Andreas from Seaking tournament or Marina from Orange islands were perfect candidates). More water themed competitions introducing new ways of seeing pokemon battle each other like underwater matches would be all more than welcomed. Making her water master career more memorable than it is case now.

I believe how even now not all is lost though. Because potential to advance Misty dreams is still in there in making whole concept more fleshed out. In doing follow up from what Whirl Cup established, mega evolution giving whole new way for Mist to grow with her pokemon realizing how to reach greater heights as trainer. Do logical progression of her trainer position in working to become E4 one day succeeding her idol Lorelei defacto making her water master if she reached such level. Etc.

Misty's pokemon handing in Johto was rather odd. She keeps Goldeen and Staryu with her when they could have been left at the Gym to free up space for new pokemon, and Psyduck/Togepi's running gags more or less got stale in Johto after seeing them for so many times. Psyduck didn't even pop out of its ball much in Johto at all, I remember we went long gaps without even seeing Psyduck by then. About the only pokemon they handled well was Poliwag and its evolutions. Poliwhirl was my favorite Pokemon of Misty's besides Psyduck.

Actually i never got bored of Psyduck. His confused, dimwitted nature, panic when having to battle or enter water. Followed by lot of silly spats and hilarious interactions going between him and Misty interwoven with anger, frustration and hidden care from her side having trouble to admit it was golden to watch. Just like i welcomed development going between them in coming to understand themselves better with Misty eventually accepting Psyduck for who it was in Johto.
Although there existed room for Psyduck to play significant part in Misty story even more. By learning how to use water pokemon to full potential in overcoming his difficulty in swimming or being reliable battler. Serving as catalyst through which she would've come closer to fulfillment of her dream.Well that option is still available.

I didn't mind Pyduck popping less out of ball personally because that allowed her other pokemon like Poliwhirl, Corsola and Staryu to lesser extent to shine more,. Having less interrupted matches which were finished properly presenting her skills in more serious light.

Speaking of which Corsola actually got lot of focus and battling screen time ever since Misty caught it and Staryu while could be used more wasn't nearly as neglected like Goldeen or Togepi were having its moments(thing is lot of his moments happened in episodes where Misty wasn't exactly center of attention helping in resolving some issue, thus making people forget them).

Its pretty funny when you stop to think about how many water pokemon there actually are, and how Misty only has like 5% of them.

Maybe, but on other hand Misty had/has biggest number of pokemon out of all Ash traveling companions. Having most pokemon on hand during time she was traveling with Ash and later at Cerulean gym. So writers probably didn't saw point in adding even more pokemon to her repertoire when there existed several already existing ones which could have used more focus and development.

In this category likes of Starmie or Goldeen should be included not having chance to be used to full potential. Its not like Orange Islands as completely water centered region or Johto which was abundant with lakes, rivers, water based areas had no opportunities to put aquatic pokemon to great use. Hoenn was even richer in case she stayed.

Horsea could have been used for Johto evolving all he way to Kingdra. And i think its pity in how many pokemon Misty received when she was replaced never getting focus and more screen time in order to properly showcase new pokemon she acquired resulting in more character development for them and her.
This is case with Gyarados, but Luvdisc or Azurill too since we saw them for only 1 episode each. Maybe theory of writers reconsidering idea of making Misty relevant again to series has some merits to it afterall based on how frequent she received new pokemon during Hoenn or was referenced.

But that never saw light of day sadly.
 
Last edited:
maybe Serena will go to the next region with Ash, theretically Bonie and Clemont could too.
It would be good to have some known characters around.
Serena could want to start as Coordinator.
 
I really don't understand what they've done with Serrena. I mean they took ages for her thinking about she wanted her goal to be, and then in the end they settled with some sexist rip off of Pokemon contests. (sexist because it's females only and enforces stereotypical gender roles on woman such as baking, dressing up and removes all element of battling, leaving that for the boys)

At the same time, I've always felt that forcing the Contests to have traditional battles, essentially making them no different from typical tournaments except there's a talent show before them, to show a lack of commitment towards showing there are different things a Trainer can do besides taking on gyms and fighting. Showcases basically being the game version of contests makes me feel like there's more diversity in the way Trainers can interact with their Pokemon.

That being said, Misty's problem was that she wasn't dynamic as a character whatsoever. She just showed up in the episode, had no goals, contributed even less to the group than Brock did (who was a mentor and a big brother figure). Iris at least had rivals and character issues that ran through the story that informed how she played off of Ash and the others. Misty had none of that; she was just a tsundere who lost her comedic traits the moment she became Togepi's mom.
 
That being said, Misty's problem was that she wasn't dynamic as a character whatsoever. She just showed up in the episode, had no goals, contributed even less to the group than Brock did (who was a mentor and a big brother figure). Iris at least had rivals and character issues that ran through the story that informed how she played off of Ash and the others. Misty had none of that; she was just a tsundere who lost her comedic traits the moment she became Togepi's mom.

I don't see it that way. As me and various others mentioned in this thread Misty had goals and aspirations of becoming water pokemon master, she admired E4 members like Lorelei from E4 who was her idol wishing to become strong like her one day,. She had side dreams and interests such as meeting legendary water pokemon learning about their origins, being romantic person dreaming of visiting all kind of places.

She had her own selfdoubts and emotional problems in feeling inferior to her older sisters. Developing abrasive side in order to hide her flaws and insecurity as result of growing without parental presence and evident underestimation by others. Struggled with her feelings developed toward Ash. Being confused about it with various sides of her clashing vs each other. Had fears from bugs or Gyarados as result of trauma she faced in childhood etc.
Being in a way her emotional goals and barriers she had to overcome in becoming stronger person.

Goals out of which while some should/could've be more expanded and explored were still there making big part of her character.

Purpose:
Reason behind her presence in pokemon was to both follow her own self doubts and insecurities, goals, get insight in her own thoughts and past. Bring humor, passion and tension in group chemistry serving as counterbalance to Ash or Brock eccentric outbursts and help Ash stand on his legs alongside Brock being his coach and mentor. Delivering identity and emotional touch to pokemon series with her strong character. In bigger amount than i can say for aforementioned Iris or Brock who were abit less represented.

I don't think she lost her touch after acquiring Togepi too, Only helping her to mature and become more open minded as person.
Not losing her lively traits, various pranks and rebellious attitude after maturing. But rather developing new sides to her like more optimism, tolerance and confidence rising above sisters shadow, gaining faith in her own qualities becoming more independent as person and becoming more trusty with other humans.

p.s. I apologize if this was of topic, but i felt need to express my thoughts about validity of goals and development said character had.
 
Last edited:
For once Ash could have a journey with a female trainer that also gains gym badges and wants to be a pokemon master.
That would be interesting to see that kind of rivalry.
The gym leaders could use diffrent pokemon and battles would be longer and more interesting.
 
For once Ash could have a journey with a female trainer that also gains gym badges and wants to be a pokemon master.
That would be interesting to see that kind of rivalry.
The gym leaders could use diffrent pokemon and battles would be longer and more interesting.

The main problem with that idea is that it would take twice as long to go Gyms. It would be even longer if one of them loses to a Gym Leader and needs a rematch. It might be interesting the first couple of times, but seeing them battle eight Gym Leaders at least twice would be boring fast.
 
The main problem with that idea is that it would take twice as long to go Gyms. It would be even longer if one of them loses to a Gym Leader and needs a rematch. It might be interesting the first couple of times, but seeing them battle eight Gym Leaders at least twice would be boring fast.
thats a good argument. Maybe sometimes they could show only 8, but 4 his four hers, or something in that direction.
Or make a female rival.(we saw some battles of Paul in gen IV)
I'm for Serena becoming a Coordinator next and to go with Ash into the generation 7 region.
 
Please note: The thread is from 8 years ago.
Please take the age of this thread into consideration in writing your reply. Depending on what exactly you wanted to say, you may want to consider if it would be better to post a new thread instead.
Back
Top Bottom