How to Fix the Ice Type

[Matleo]

I rather would want a type based immunity or resistance:

- Make ice resist sound (or make the bug type get this and maybe immunity to sound moves like Grass whistle)
- be immune to confussion or flinching, or have a lower chance of getting one of these (or make the bug type get one of this)

we forget that ice types now with mistic terrain can be immune to status conditions?
maybe make some ice type learn to cast mystic terrain trough move or ability? could see Jynx with a move.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Misty terrain won't benefit Jynx as it is a psychic type. Iirc the only Ice type able to take advantage of misty terrain is Ninetales-Alola.

 

[SirOni]

Misty Terrain doesn't even benefit Fairy-types that much since it doesn't boost Fairy moves instead weakening Dragon moves. Just the status protection that benefits any and all grounded Pokemon.

Speaking of terrain I've been playing Pokemon Sage since a new demo was released and it have a terrain for Ice-types called Snowy Terrain. It boosts the power of Ice moves and cuts the Speed of grounded non-Ice-types for its duration. It works well enough to make the Ice gym a pretty nice challenge, but that could also be due to it being the first gym when players don't have too many tools at their disposal yet.

 

[Matleo]

Misty Terrain doesn't even benefit Fairy-types that much since it doesn't boost Fairy moves instead weakening Dragon moves. Just the status protection that benefits any and all grounded Pokemon.

Speaking of terrain I've been playing Pokemon Sage since a new demo was released and it have a terrain for Ice-types called Snowy Terrain. It boosts the power of Ice moves and cuts the Speed of grounded non-Ice-types for its duration. It works well enough to make the Ice gym a pretty nice challenge, but that could also be due to it being the first gym when players don't have too many tools at their disposal yet.

a snowy terrain really could half speed of not ice pokemon, but it would be cool if it could heal up ice types 1/16 every turn
without boosting power of ice type moves.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Why avoid boosting Ice-type moves? Ice types could use all the help they can get. (and it would be more likely than healing up Ice-types a bit each turn, given we already have that with Ice Body and Leftovers, and all three could be stacked in this scenario)

 

[Matleo]

Why avoid boosting Ice-type moves? Ice types could use all the help they can get. (and it would be more likely than healing up Ice-types a bit each turn, given we already have that with Ice Body and Leftovers, and all three could be stacked in this scenario)

I rather think that Ice types are very good in the offensive side, they can SE grass, ground, flying,dragon, but they resist only themself and thats why the healing factor is more important for them.
Ice types can learn all difrent sort of other types moves that makes power out.

Take fairy, its only SE against 3 types, it didnt get a boost in its terrain , only dragon got nerfed by half damage.
Electric , Psyhic got the boost only becuse they have a type with immunity against them.
Grass got only 1,5 becuase of its many weakness and that more types resist it then its SE on them.

Maybe make landgoing physical attackers slower by half and reduce physical damage by 0.25(25%) would be enough?

Plus they could really make that by hail and sandstorm that the flying and levitating foes should take more damage or get slower and reduced physical attack power or boost both def and sp.def.
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to make the frozen status more leggit and not too OP, maybe make moves like Rage and Outrage also free from the frozen status, becuse the user is so angry that he becomes hot and unstoppable even within the frozen solid status, or make him thaw out without dealing damage on that turn?

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I rather think that Ice types are very good in the offensive side, they can SE grass, ground, flying,dragon, but they resist only themself and thats why the healing factor is more important for them.

Ice types are resisted by just as many types as they are super effective against.

Electric , Psyhic got the boost only becuse they have a type with immunity against them.

Do you honestly think Psychic is lagging behind offensively just because of one type immunity? It's only resisted by two other types-Steel and Psychic itself-and it's weak to neither one of those. (and look at the articles on Fairy, Electric, and Psychic-there's a lot of analysis on why they're good offensively)

And if the qualification for a boosting terrain is having enough types that resists/are immune to it, then Ice still fits the bill-there are as many types that resist Ice as are immune to/resist Electric.

Grass got only 1,5 becuase of its many weakness and that more types resist it then its SE on them.

"only"? Grassy Terrain boosts by the same amount as Electric and Psychic Terrain do.

Plus they could really make that by hail and sandstorm that the flying and levitating foes should take more damage or get slower and reduced physical attack power or boost both def and sp.def.

I fail to see how a nerf primarily to the Flying type would help out Ice-types.

 

[Matleo]

Ice types are resisted by just as many types as they are super effective against.

yes, but they resist only themselfs. Thats about the defensive nature, ofensive wise the are neutral on that matter.
Plus being resisted by steel, ice, fire, water is very difrrent then hurting ground , grass, flying and dragon SE.

"only" refered to why grass got a terrain in the first place, to its many weaknees that are comparable with the immunities against electric and psychic.

Hmmm. Ice really should resist water and ghost(cold associated with ghost stories), thats the only resistances I would give it from the start.

The nerf to flying/fire, flying/steel, rock/flying, steel(levitate), rock(leviate), fire/ghost(levitate) you don't see, all who got vey good speedy pokes?
But if we get a ice terrain should affect the fighting capabillities of the fighting types some how, if they move slower their physical attacks should also fall or not... lame that only burn half the attack stats.

How good are ice types at inducing status ailments an status condtitions taking their speed to the other types?
They need mostly to take a hit and then can do something? do we have a ice type with prankster?

 

[TechSkylander1518]

yes, but they resist only themselfs. Thats about the defensive nature, ofensive wise the are neutral on that matter.

Earlier, you said that Ice did well offensively.

I rather think that Ice types are very good in the offensive side, they can SE grass, ground, flying,dragon,

You can't change your reasoning midway and pretend your argument still holds up. If Ice is only neutral offensively, then a boost to Ice-type moves would help it out.

"only" refered to why grass got a terrain in the first place, to its many weaknees that are comparable with the immunities against electric and psychic.

Psychic didn't even have a terrain until Gen 7. It doesn't make sense to say Grass got a terrain because of a similarity to Psychic when Grass got it first.

Also, the terrains only boost the power of their moves-it doesn't let them hit types that are immune against them. You can't say that terrains were made because of type immunities when they don't even affect them.

Hmmm. Ice really should resist water and ghost(cold associated with ghost stories), thats the only resistances I would give it from the start.

I definitely agree with that!

The nerf to flying/fire, flying/steel, rock/flying, steel(levitate), rock(leviate), fire/ghost(levitate) you don't see, all who got vey good speedy pokes?

Fire/Flying is a group of five Pokemon lines, two of which are legendaries.

Flying/Steel is literally one Pokemon. It has a base speed of 70.

There are three Rock-type Pokemon lines. While all of them are quite speedy, they're also incredibly frail.

There's only one line of Pokemon that's a Steel-type and has Levitate. It has a base speed of 33. (There's a reason Bronzong is used to set up Trick Room)

The only Rock-types with Levitate are Solrock and Lunatone. They also have base speeds of 70.

The list of Fire/Ghost types with levitate is...none.

So, no, I don't see how attacking eleven specific Pokemon (most of which aren't the threats you described) in a way that would harm many others (including Ice/Flying types and Ice-types with Levitate) is a good idea.

They need mostly to take a hit and then can do something?

Or they could just be faster? Like many others have said on this thread, Ice needs more fast attackers, not tanks.

do we have a ice type with prankster?

Prankster (Ability) - Bulbapedia, the community-driven Pokémon encyclopedia

 

[Matleo]

Earlier, you said that Ice did well offensively.

Because ground, dragon , flying and grass are formidable oponents and we got a lot of pokemon with these typings.

You can't change your reasoning midway and pretend your argument still holds up. If Ice is only neutral offensively, then a boost to Ice-type moves would help it out.

help yes, but could it be overpowered afterwards?

Psychic didn't even have a terrain until Gen 7. It doesn't make sense to say Grass got a terrain because of a similarity to Psychic when Grass got it first.

Also, the terrains only boost the power of their moves-it doesn't let them hit types that are immune against them. You can't say that terrains were made because of type immunities when they don't even affect them.

read what I wrote from the start, I dint say when something was done, but compared the types themfelf and made my own conclusion why the creators have chosen this types and why have given similar effects to this terrains of this types.

Fire/Flying is a group of five Pokemon lines, two of which are legendaries.

Flying/Steel is literally one Pokemon. It has a base speed of 70.

There are three Rock-type Pokemon lines. While all of them are quite speedy, they're also incredibly frail.

There's only one line of Pokemon that's a Steel-type and has Levitate. It has a base speed of 33. (There's a reason Bronzong is used to set up Trick Room)

The only Rock-types with Levitate are Solrock and Lunatone. They also have base speeds of 70.

The list of Fire/Ghost types with levitate is...none.

So, no, I don't see how attacking eleven specific Pokemon (most of which aren't the threats you described) in a way that would harm many others (including Ice/Flying types and Ice-types with Levitate) is a good idea.

ok here you are right. Maybe teach some ice types Stealth rock? Avalug and that ice with Levitate.
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Or they could just be faster? Like many others have said on this thread, Ice needs more fast attackers, not tanks.

or make ice pokes learn speed reducing moves against oponent and speed rising moves on your side of the field+ that snowy terrain to change speed difrently for landgoing pokes...
But ice then again can be overused in Trick Room or not?

That with a ice type Prankster really needs to change in future then people will stop complaining about it a little.
Maybe they could re use ice/psychic or ice/fighting and make it physically more better?
ice/fairy, ice/fying or ice/electric could also work really well.
Or with what typing do you see it happening?

Ice getting a Fur Coat user could help on the physical side.
And getting a faster ice/grass pokemon more speed, attack and sp.attack oriented could help if done with right protective ability to survive a turn or two.

I would really love to see a ice/??? , could be steel , poison or something with the lighting rod or volt absorb ability.(acid batteries and cold are good ways to have super charging batteries)

We would more non legendary dragon/ice and other typed pokemon but it would need either a immunity or fur coat or something like multiscale, solid rock to be outstanding.

+many redone ice/??? with interesting new and old abilities the treatment like ghost, water ad other got in the past. (ice/ghost snowman line)

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good defensive and ofensive ice type: Thick Fat Mamoswine.
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hope we get an 60% ice oriented region once with good new ice pokemon then we will have the problem solved form many generations. (ice/bug, ice/fighting, ice/electric, ice/fire, ice/poison)

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Because ground, dragon , flying and grass are formidable oponents and we got a lot of pokemon with these typings.

Every type has a lot of Pokemon. Basic type effectiveness isn't everything.

And seriously? You count Grass, a type resisted by seven types and weak to five, in the same boat as Dragon???

help yes, but could it be overpowered afterwards?

Just look at Grass, Electric, and Psychic. Their terrains boosted their attacks, but they're not suddenly ruling over the other types.

read what I wrote from the start, I dint say when something was done, but compared the types themfelf and made my own conclusion why the creators have chosen this types and why have given similar effects to this terrains of this types.

But that's exactly my point-you're making a conclusion based on things in the wrong order. You said that because of a similarity between Electric and Psychic, they chose to give Grass a terrain, but that's impossible, because Psychic wasn't created to base a decision on.

And you ignored my other point-a boost to Electric and Psychic attacks still doesn't let them hit Ground or Dark types. So it doesn't make sense to say that immunity's the reason for those terrains to be created when the terrains don't change that at all.

Maybe teach some ice types Stealth rock?

The Swinub and Amaura lines already learn it.

Avalug and that ice with Levitate

Avalugg I could see, Cryrogonal I do not. It's a fragile snowflake, why is it throwing around rocks?

or make ice pokes learn speed reducing moves against oponent

Lots of Ice-types can learn Bulldoze and Rock Tomb, and there are already some Ice-type moves that lower speed, like Icy Wind and Glaciate! What on earth made you think they didn't have any?

But ice then again can be overused in Trick Room or not?

A Beginner's Guide to Trick Room - Smogon University

See any Ice-types here? I don't.

That with a ice type Prankster really needs to change in future then people will stop complaining about it a little.

Do you mean asking to fix the Ice type or complaining about no Ice-type with Prankster? One Pokemon can't fix a whole type, and I haven't seen a massive outcry for a Prankster Ice-type.

Maybe they could re use ice/psychic or ice/fighting and make it physically more better?
ice/fairy, ice/fying or ice/electric could also work really well.
Or with what typing do you see it happening?

It could happen with any type. An ability like that would be affected more by base stats than by typing.

 

[Matleo]

what would be if we got a move or ability to change water type moves into ice type moves?
Sub zero, absolute zero?

 

[TechSkylander1518]

It'd be an interesting concept for a Pokemon, but it's not going to fix the whole type. (especially as an ability-you can't change every Ice-type Pokemon's ability to the same thing) It offers no new coverage for Ice-types and no new resistances. It'd only offer expanded STAB to the few Ice-types who can learn Water moves, which isn't many.

 

[Sana]

Losing Water coverage seems a general bad idea too. Even if a Pokémon got that ability, it'd be weighting whether to use a broader stab movepool (which doesn't seem that useful other than for some odd physical stab, it'd be better to just make appropiate moves) or disposing of Fire and Rock types.

Generally to make a Pokémon more useable coverage is one of the first things to look into. I'd want more Ice types learning Water if anything.

 

[Matleo]

It'd be an interesting concept for a Pokemon, but it's not going to fix the whole type. (especially as an ability-you can't change every Ice-type Pokemon's ability to the same thing) It offers no new coverage for Ice-types and no new resistances. It'd only offer expanded STAB to the few Ice-types who can learn Water moves, which isn't many.

Losing Water coverage seems a general bad idea too. Even if a Pokémon got that ability, it'd be weighting whether to use a broader stab movepool (which doesn't seem that useful other than for some odd physical stab, it'd be better to just make appropiate moves) or disposing of Fire and Rock types.

Generally to make a Pokémon more useable coverage is one of the first things to look into. I'd want more Ice types learning Water if anything.

both good arguments.
As a pokemon concept it should hapen, imagine a ice/rock ; ice/ground ; ice/fire pokemon with it and it having ice body(hope it gets the buff to hel up from ice moves). The last type combo would take neutral damage from fire and if it gets that ability it would resist water 1/4 becuse it becomes ice when its out. Steel would hit normal, only fighting, rock and ground would be problematic.
But then again new ice pokemon that could be immune or resist to fight or rock could be posibble.

An ice type focused on taking out water types also can be good thing for a type.
Think of it this would also mean that the weather should also change automatically from rain to hail?

It doesnt solve the problem of a whole type, but such little steps also do.
(-water resistence; -ground resistance; -dragon resistance; ghost resistance and then people would complain that ice is overpowered???)

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

An Ice/Fire Type simply will lose viability if its water moves are converted to ice. Ice/Fire is 4x weak to rock and 2x weak to ground, and water coverage is ESSENTIAL for it. Converting water to ice for such a Pokémon will lose it lots of viability.

 

[Matleo]

An Ice/Fire Type simply will lose viability if its water moves are converted to ice. Ice/Fire is 4x weak to rock and 2x weak to ground, and water coverage is ESSENTIAL for it. Converting water to ice for such a Pokémon will lose it lots of viability.

No if only the oponents water type moves would become ice typed because of the cold aura emitted by the user of the new ability for its protection.
The users own water moves could stay the same, simply water.
A defense mechanic.
think of it. this would make sense and be usefull.

ability: A very powerfull and cold aura protects the user. The oponents water type moves used against this pokemon will become ice type moves before they hit the user of this ability. Also maybe make it work like Fur Coat and maybe reduce damage but of the oponents special attaks?or would that be too much?

 

[Sana]

I think the better way to implement that idea would be rather than to affect the user alone, to make a "field state" kind of move/ability thing (think trick room, terrains) that globally freezes water moves. (Maybe turn Rain into Hail while at it too?)

That way its use doesn't fall on a specific user that doesn't really entirely benefit from it, but can fit on teambuilding for.

On the other hand it'd then be also giving Water types free Ice moves which is what sits wrong for me. Hm...

 

[Guzma]

I think what we need are less slow Ice-types like Avalugg and Glaceon and more speedy, offensive Ice-types like Weavile and... Um, Weavile. The only other Ice-types that are at all usable competitively don't even use the typing to their advantage; A-Ninetales is successful as a support Pokemon (Aurora Veil/Snow Warning), Mamoswine gets by with priority and a neutrality to Fire, and Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W are good in spite of their Ice-typing, not because of it.

Syclant, the first Pokemon from Smogon's Create-A-Pokemon project, is a Pokemon that succeeds because of its Ice-typing, and it has the defensively awful type combination of Bug/Ice, to boot. With its monstrous speed and mixed offensive stats, it's the epitome of a "glass cannon," which is the ideal role for an Ice-type. Even if you removed its Stealth Rock-dodging fan-made ability Mountaineer, it would still likely be good enough for UU or even BL thanks to Compound Eyes letting it fire off Blizzard with 91% accuracy. I mean, Volcarona's an OU powerhouse and it shares Compound Eyes Syclant's massive Stealth Rock weakness and has horrible abilities.

Seriously, guys, if/when we get a Bug/Ice-type, I pray that it's basically just Compound Eyes Syclant with a less ridiculous BST. Like, I dunno, drop the physical attacking aspect Smogon gave it.

 

[Matleo]

or they could make ice/fighting with low sweep or make the move glaciate not so signature to Kyruem and make more ice types learn it.