How to Fix the Ice Type

[Johnny Boy]

They could start by making Ice resist water (Ice is just frozen water anyway) and dragon (one of three types capable of taking down dragons so it should resist them too).

 

[Matleo]

I think Ice and bug should get something like dark did get against Prankster.
maybe a Resistance to Sound moves wouldnt be that bad together with that water resistance people are wanting since ages.

What else would you suggest similar to darks immunity to prankster?
psychic pokemon should not get confused or get put a sleep by non dark, psychic, ghost and fairy pokemon?
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ability:

Freeze Point- has 30% to freeze the oponent by contact but only when the oponent attacks the user with a physical contact move.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

What else would you suggest similar to darks immunity to prankster?
psychic pokemon should not get confused or get put a sleep by non dark, psychic, ghost and fairy pokemon?

This thread is about the Ice type, not the Psychic type. (which is doing quite well for itself)

 

[Matleo]

This thread is about the Ice type, not the Psychic type. (which is doing quite well for itself)

yes you are right, but what would be the best for the ice type?

 

[Ambrose7]

Ice needs more resistance. As some people have said above, resisting Dragon and Water should do the trick. And frankly I would remove it being not effective against Water.

 

[godiego]

nerf water types first, then assess what ice would need to make their Pokemon more viable.

 

[Matleo]

what about type combos after the changes?
if ice would get a water resistance, then fire/ice would be neutral to ware thats a positive.
ground/ice neutral to water and resistant to dragon, nice.
rock/ice, neutral to water and resistant to dragon.
ice/dragon, very resiatnt o water and neutral to dragon

That really could work pretty well.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Some Pokemon really wouldn’t change the situation of an entire type in general.

 

[Sana]

Sound

you know, taking this on a different direction, how about resisting a light-based attribute (in the same manner some moves are sound-based or pulses or fists etc), instead?
an entire type resisting attributes isn't too out there, as Grass is immune to powder moves. The list of moves that would have a light attribute would be more notable than the sound or powder or whatever moves, so an outright immunity seems overkill, but I think something like this could work out.

without thinking much about it, this would affect notably Flash Cannon, to which Ice is weak, and Dazzling Gleam, which is a common move. Maybe even Hyper Beam (even though it's not that used in practice)?
(it would also affect Ice Beam which ironically is good since it gives them a reason to switch on those water types)

 

[Deoxysxx]

This thread is about the Ice type, not the Psychic type. (which is doing quite well for itself)

Psychic is trash and worse than Ice. Ice as a type is fine. The problem is Game Freak trying to make Ice Pokemon slow and defensive.

 

[Sablaireau]

Psychic is trash and worse than Ice.

Are you kidding? Psychic is one of the best types in the metagame actually - there are 6 Psychic types in OU, compared to only two for Ice (and one of said Ice types is really falling off lately due to the rises of Kartana, Mega Scizor, and Mega Diancie). It's not just an OU thing, as shown by the dominance of Xatu in NU and Mesprit in PU). It has great neutral coverage, especially with most Psychics carrying Focus Blast to nuke their typical checks. In fact, I reckon that without bulky Steels like Celesteela, the type would not be balanced at all. Calling it worse than Ice, which struggles to break defensive backbones filled with bulky Waters and Steels is clearly a misunderstanding of the game.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

Psychic is trash and worse than Ice. Ice as a type is fine. The problem is Game Freak trying to make Ice Pokemon slow and defensive.

In addition to Sablaireau's points-

• The average BST for Psychic-types is 480.93, and 550.23 fully evolved. The average BST for Ice-types is 461.52, and 528.78 fully evolved.
• Ice is weak to four types. Psychic is weak to three.
• Ice is resisted by four types, one of which is itself. Psychic is resisted by two, one of which is itself, and does not affect one.
• The Dark and Steel types were introduced because the Psychic type overpowered other types.

Seriously, what the heck makes you think Psychic-types are trash?

 

[Deoxysxx]

Are you kidding? Psychic is one of the best types in the metagame actually - there are 6 Psychic types in OU, compared to only two for Ice (and one of said Ice types is really falling off lately due to the rises of Kartana, Mega Scizor, and Mega Diancie). It's not just an OU thing, as shown by the dominance of Xatu in NU and Mesprit in PU). It has great neutral coverage, especially with most Psychics carrying Focus Blast to nuke their typical checks. In fact, I reckon that without bulky Steels like Celesteela, the type would not be balanced at all. Calling it worse than Ice, which struggles to break defensive backbones filled with bulky Waters and Steels is clearly a misunderstanding of the game.

You do realize it's possible for Pokemon of a certain type to still be good while the type itself is not? If having a few good Pokemon attached to a type suddenly makes that type good then this entire thread shouldn't even exist since Weavile and Mamoswine exist. Tapu Lele is good because of stats, movepool, and ability, and its Fairy typing, Latios is good because of stats, movepool, and ability, and so on or whatever. Having the Psychic typing attached to most Pokemon isn't really doing them any favors with moves like Pursuit, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and U-turn being so widespread.

In addition to Sablaireau's points-

• The average BST for Psychic-types is 480.93, and 550.23 fully evolved. The average BST for Ice-types is 461.52, and 528.78 fully evolved.
• Ice is weak to four types. Psychic is weak to three.
• Ice is resisted by four types, one of which is itself. Psychic is resisted by two, one of which is itself, and does not affect one.
• The Dark and Steel types were introduced because the Psychic type overpowered other types.

Seriously, what the heck makes you think Psychic-types are trash?

BST has nothing to do with the type itself. Psychic is only Super Effective against two types one of which is not very relevant. While having one type being immune to it and two types resisting it (including itself.). Psychic also takes neutral damage from a bunch of types.

The Dark and Steel types were introduced because the Psychic type overpowered other types.

The Psychic type overpowering other types was ages ago.

Ice is resisted by four types, one of which is itself. Psychic is resisted by two, one of which is itself, and does not affect one.

And hits four types for super effective damage. One of which is one of the most common types in the game.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

BST has nothing to do with the type itself.

It's the BST of the Pokemon associated with the type, which is a pretty good indicator of their strength.

While having one type being immune to it and two types resisting it (including itself.)

Exactly what I already said. Now, please read the part where I pointed out that Ice is resisted by four types.

Psychic also takes neutral damage from a bunch of types.

And hits those same types for neutral damage.

Psychic is only Super Effective against two types one of which is not very relevant.

Which one seem irrelevant to you?

The Psychic type overpowering other types was ages ago.

That doesn't change the fact that it did occur. And type effectiveness haven't changed since then: Psychic was only super effective against two types, Ice against four.

And hits four types for super effective damage. One of which is one of the most common types in the game.

Right, Ice does so well at dealing with Dragon-types that...we got a whole new type to deal with Dragon.

 

[Deoxysxx]

It's the BST of the Pokemon associated with the type, which is a pretty good indicator of their strength.

Yes, of the Pokemon's strength. Not the strength of the type. Any Pokemon of any type can have a great BST.

Right, Ice does so well at dealing with Dragon-types that...we got a whole new type to deal with Dragon.

I imagine Game Freak wanted a type to resist Dragons and it's possible Fighting types might have had something to do with that as well.

That doesn't change the fact that it did occur. And type effectiveness haven't changed since then: Psychic was only super effective against two types, Ice against four.

It certainly doesn't matter now considering it occurred in a game with very different mechanics from modern Pokemon.

Which one seem irrelevant to you?

Poison Pokemon. Poison moves are relevant but now I'm not sure about that since Steel moves since to be preferable over Poison moves considering Steel hits three types for super effective damage and doesn't have any types immune to it.

And hits those same types for neutral damage.

Taking neutral damage from so many types is a defensive liability especially if the Psychic Pokemon doesn't have the defense or sp. defense (or even a dual type that would give it useful resistances) to really afford taking those neutral hits. It's for this reason that Psychic can bring a lot of other types down because it offers so little resistances.

Why did you ignore the first half of my post?

 

[Bob Fizzle]

You do realize it's possible for Pokemon of a certain type to still be good while the type itself is not? If having a few good Pokemon attached to a type suddenly makes that type good then this entire thread shouldn't even exist since Weavile and Mamoswine exist. Tapu Lele is good because of stats, movepool, and ability, and its Fairy typing, Latios is good because of stats, movepool, and ability, and so on or whatever. Having the Psychic typing attached to most Pokemon isn't really doing them any favors with moves like Pursuit, Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and U-turn being so widespread.

While ice is an extremely good type for coverage, this thread is not about power or viability of ice-type moves in a vacuum. It is about the ice type as a whole, which if you read the whole OP, not only includes the moves themselves, but also ice-type Pokemon and their offensive and defensive prowess. To that effect, ice is literally the worst defensive typing in the game, offering only a resistance to itself while sporting four weaknesses, three of which include common offensive STAB or coverage moves.

In spite ice-type moves being so useful, there are only three ice-type Pokemon (excluding Kyurem and Arceus formes) that are generally viable in competitive play. One of these, Alolan Ninetales, is because it is the only user of both Snow Warning and Aurora Veil. The other two, Weavile and Mamoswine, are the exception because they are the only ice-types that can effectively utilize the coverage offered by the type, and they also both have ways of dealing with the types that resist their ice STAB. Mamoswine has earthquake, giving it almost perfect neutral coverage, while Weavile has fearsome raw power and speed to just smack things that resist its ice STAB.

 

[TechSkylander1518]

I imagine Game Freak wanted a type to resist Dragons and it's possible Fighting types might have had something to do with that as well.

We already had a type to resist Dragon in Steel. If resistance alone was the goal, then there would be no reason for Fairy to be super effective against Dragon.

It certainly doesn't matter now considering it occurred in a game with very different mechanics from modern Pokemon.

type effectiveness haven't changed since then: Psychic was only super effective against two types, Ice against four.

There are new mechanics since then, yes, but your arguments haven't mentioned new moves, the physical/special split, or anything of the sort. You've just been talking about the types' effectiveness offensively, which hasn't changed since Gen 1.

Poison Pokemon. Poison moves are relevant but now I'm not sure about that since Steel moves since to be preferable over Poison moves considering Steel hits three types for super effective damage and doesn't have any types immune to it.

You do realize that Pokemon can use moves outside of their type, right?

Taking neutral damage from so many types is a defensive liability

Then Ice is in a far worse position than Psychic, having no resistances outside of itself.

especially if the Psychic Pokemon doesn't have the defense or sp. defense (or even a dual type that would give it useful resistances) to really afford taking those neutral hits.

But you said base stats aren't a good indicator of the strength of the type?

It's for this reason that Psychic can bring a lot of other types down because it offers so little resistances.

Psychic is also resisted by very few other types.

Why did you ignore the first half of my post?

Because you weren't replying to me? You quoted Sablaireau.

 

[Matleo]

resisting a light-based attribute

yes, do we have a list of how many they are?
A resistance for ice against those would be really good.

Solar beam, hyper beam, flash canon, dazling gleam, charge beam,
Maybe even solar blade should count?

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(if there is ever afully ice based region with castles, igloo-es, what about a ice/rock "Troll" based pokemon with bullet proof or solid rock ??? (there also could be a bridge troll water/fairy, mountain trool rock/fighting ))
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Ice type move that causes sleeping?
Ice type move that causes switching oponent out? (winter migration)
Ice type move that causes switching user out? (winter changes to spring)
or both?
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we would need some fast representatives and some with good abilities .

Spoiler

a new ice/ghost snowman would need maybe water absorb?
and a new ability to compensate some loses, Disquise, maybe a ice based one?

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Shafted by Design: What's Wrong with the Ice Type? - Smogon University
Pokémon Pokédex: list of Pokémon with stats | Pokémon Database

 

[SinnohEevee]

How about Ice-types getting a stat boost during Hail? IIRC, Rock-types get 1.5x on their Sp.Def during Sandstorm.

 

[Matleo]

How about Ice-types getting a stat boost during Hail? IIRC, Rock-types get 1.5x on their Sp.Def during Sandstorm.

the same should be with ice, but why didnt they do that already? nobody knows... they are thinking that those ice abilities that allow you to avoid attaks during hail are enough? lame...
taking that Inferno, Will-o-wisp, Lock On, sunny weather are there.



View: https://imgur.com/gallery/7wAPO#ogoMag5


this might help to analise the situation a little more.
dont know if Alolan pokes are included in this.
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Ice Body should heal also when hit by ice or water type moves. (this would be a real buff for pokemon of the ice type)

Imagine a new ice type ability that could damage the foe that tries to trap you(move or ability) by halving his hp? this would be interesting for a ice type. Would be great against mega gengar, dugtrio and others.

Or Liquid Freeze- halfs physical damage and does damage by contact when oponent attacked the user, something like this for a ice/ghost and we have good time.
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Buff to Ice types - Pokemon Sun Message Board for 3DS - GameFAQs
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Ice and sunny weather? Ive melt during sun?

maybe increase of speed and evasion 1,5 during sunny weather for ice types?

during rain ... fire type moves are halved... but ice could get sp. attack boost taking that water is rather cold.
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make more ice types learn aqua ring and create a ice type version of Shore Up during hail.
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more cross ice type pokemon with better abilities(ice/ghost; ice'poison' ice/dragon; ice/flying; ice/fighting ; ice/steel; ice/fairy; ice/rock and so on )