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Ice Types: The Underdogs Again?

Discussion in 'Pokémon Video Games' started by Blob, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. Kyriaki

    Kyriaki The Future Hero of Alola

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    Ice resisting Dragon would be a huge huge plus, since even with the Fairy-types around, Dragon is still going strong.
     
    Nitro Indigo and SinnohEevee like this.
  2. winstein

    winstein Mari-yo Puyo

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    I imagine that changing the type chart is a hassle, so they can't quite change it easily without upsetting the balance from other places.

    Anyway, I have seen some datamining stuff, so if you can read some spoilers, then go ahead...

    Do you know that there's only one new Ice-type in Alola? Yes, took me some time to realise that, but it appears that there's only one new Ice-type, and it's an evolution!

    That's not counting the Alola forms. If you count them, then there are five of them. That's actually the least amount of Pokemon for a type, but it's not surprising due to Alola's tropical climate.

    On the bright side, there are two new Snow Warning Pokemon: Alolan Ninetales and Vanilluxe. The former works best as support with Aurora Veil (which can stack with Reflect/Light Screen), while the latter has the highest power for Blizzard, given it can carry an item.

    In addition to this, a new ability Slush Rush was introduced, and only two families got this ability that doubles Speed in Hail: Beartic and Alolan Sandslash. Neither have high Speed, but they can be faster than Weavile, Beartic's got an Attack increase this Gen, while Sandslash has higher defences than the regular.

    Cryogonal also has a stat increase, thankfully its lowest stats: HP and Defence. This is big, because Cryogonal is not so vulnerable to Pursuit, and while it is still fragile physically, it's can withstand more attacks, especially after Screens.

    While it's not a major improvement for Ice-type as a whole, the fact that Ice-types gets new tools is still something to appreciate.

    Thanks for reading.
     
    RCxyz721, Alola and lavandula like this.
  3. Arceus the Dragon

    Arceus the Dragon Destroyer of Fairy, Steel and Ice types.

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    Ice types like Weavile are pretty good at fast hits especially when dealing with Dragon/Ground, Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Grass.
     
  4. Absolclaw

    Absolclaw Member

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    Slow, bulky Ice Pokemon.

    Thanks Game Freak.
     
  5. Gengarzilla

    Gengarzilla The Mega Evolution you love to loathe!

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    Slush Rush alone is already a step in the right direction, hail was the only one of the four weather conditions that didn't have a Swift Swim variant. Any way for Ice types to more effectively use their attributed weather is something to welcome.

    My gripe now lies in the fact that neither Beartic or Alolan Sandslash are very likely to abuse the most famous benefit of hail, an unmissable Blizzard. A Slush Rush user on the special side would be very effective. Maybe something like Walrein or Froslass?
     
    PartTimePokemonMaster likes this.
  6. Alola

    Alola FC: 2123-1290-9916 ♪♫♬

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    Beartic is still slow though (by non Alola Pokemon metagame standards) even with Slush Rush-it essentially gets a speed stat of 100. Unless you all are talking in terms of it having a Choice Scarf?
     
  7. winstein

    winstein Mari-yo Puyo

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    When a Pokemon's speed is doubled, it's not the base Speed that is doubled. It's their stat. As an example, I will use Beartic. It's at base 50 Speed, yes, but:
    - At level 50, max EVs and a neutral nature, it has a Speed of 102. Double that and you get 204.
    - A base 100 Speed Pokemon with the same criteria (Level 50, max EVs and neutral nature) will have a Speed of 152.
    - Assuming all Pokemon are level 50, that Speed is beaten by a max EV and positive-natured base 135 Speed Pokemon by one point, such as Mega Manectric. The speed stat is 205.

    So basically, base 50 Speed might not sound like much, but if you double that amount, you will be surprised by how fast it is.

    Thanks for reading.
     
  8. Alola

    Alola FC: 2123-1290-9916 ♪♫♬

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    Thanks for the detailed clarification! I didn't realize that's how stat doubling works.
     
  9. Envoy

    Envoy Formerly GTT

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    I'm not an Ice type expert by any means, but isn't A-Ninetales with Snow Warning and Aurora Veil kind of awesome? Like, I could see her getting usage in higher tiers kind of awesome. Maybe not OU, but it sounds like she's at least better than Abomasnow. Plus now we have four Snow Warning Pokemon (Abomasnow, Aurorus, Ninetales-A, Vanilluxe.) I think that's the most any weather gets.

    Slush Rush Beartic and Ninetales-A sound pretty fun together.

    Speaking of Ninetales-A. what's a good moveset for her?

    I'm thinking Aurora Veil and Blizzard are obvious, but what else?
     
  10. winstein

    winstein Mari-yo Puyo

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    Yes, it's the most - tied with Drought (Groudon, Ninetales, Mega Charizard Y and Torkoal). Yes, indeed having both Snow Warning and Aurora Veil is awesome, since Aurora Veil only can be set up in Hail, which Ninetales happen to do. I do wish that Aurorus and Vanilluxe could do this too, because backup support is always good.

    I am also not sure about good movesets, but it's usually a good idea to take advantage of both STABs if available. In this case, Ninetales has Moonblast and Freeze-Dry as Egg Moves. Ninetales is surprisingly faster than the original, so I guess you could take advantage of Encore. Maybe Encore/Aurora Veil/Blizzard/Moonblast?

    Thanks for reading.
     
    Envoy likes this.
  11. Matleo

    Matleo Active Member

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    hope Jinx also will get Aurora Veil , more pokemon too would need it.

    It's a Pitty our new non alolan ice pokemon didnt get Disquise or something better ability wise.
     
  12. Matoka

    Matoka Pokemon to discover and Chinese Riddles to solve!

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    So lets clarify, without Bias:

    Ice types are meant to be Frail. I.E. not defensive. They could be described as "Glass Canons".
    Ice types are supposed to be a method of dealing super effective damage against things with few weaknesses.
    Freeze as a status is absolute idiocy and is dumb as hell, like how the old sleep status was before being changed.
    We do not need a third damaging entry hazard. stealth rocks are already questionable.

    With this in mind I would consider these few things:

    What are types that are considered one of the best defensive types with the fewest weaknesses?
    Normal and Electric have only One weakness.
    Fairy, Ghost, Poison and Water only have Two weaknesses. (Water has 3 ala Freeze Dry)
    Dragon, Ground, Steel, Flying, and Dark only have Three weaknesses.

    With all this in mind, I would change three things highly relevant to Ice-Types.

    Type effectiveness stuff
    Since Ice is meant to be a glass canon we should see if any of those types above would make sense to be slightly weakened in their defences against Ice Types.
    This does not mean they have to become weak to ice types, they could also lose a resistance.

    It is for this reason that I think that Water types should lose their resistance to Ice Types.
    Water is considered one of the objectively best defensive types, it has a type pairing with literally every typing in the game and great moves such as, Scald, Hydro-pump, etc, and they often get access to Ice Beam for coverage.

    Resistances are what stop glass canons from going on to sweep, not lack of super effective hits. And I think that of the types mentioned above, the one that should lose its resistance is water rather than steel, because steel is in a good spot right now, whereas water is a bit stronger than I think it should be.

    Freeze status rework.
    Currently freeze can last indefinitely, having a 1/5 chance each turn for the pokemon to thaw out. this is just RNG RNG RNG.
    Honestly, I think it should be changed to exactly what Sleep is, 1-3 turns, but Fire Types can't be frozen. Why this hasn't been done already, who knows.

    New Entry Hazard
    I would propose a new type of entry hazard- "Lowered Temperature", caused by a move that honestly the name doesn't matter as this is merely a concept, but lets go with Air Chill.

    While this is in effect Pokemon on the opponent's side of the field will be twice as likely to be Frozen, Additionally: Water, Dragon and Flying types receive a Speed drop upon entering while Fire and Ice Types are not affected at all. The final point for this entry hazard would be that it cannot be removed with Rapid Spin, it can only be removed with Defog or Overheat.

    This, with the Freeze Rework would allow future interactions with freeze in a balanced matter
    The reason that I feel the previous types should be slowed on entry are:
    Dragons are Reptiles, Don't function well in the cold
    Water types start to freeze and are slowed down
    Flying types find it too cold to fly well (Applies to Dragons too.)
    The other reason I chose both these types are because they are the main types that get access to Defog. I wanted Fire Types to be the ultimate counter to ice types which is why I made fire types simultaneously immune as well as having a move that can remove this in Overheat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  13. Matleo

    Matleo Active Member

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    maybe the next region will be an totally ice based one? who knows? last time we got not so many ground and bug types.
     
  14. RileyXY1

    RileyXY1 Young Battle Trainer

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    That is only if the region is based on somewhere cold. Ice types usually get the shaft in Pokemon.
     
  15. Matleo

    Matleo Active Member

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    we got a very warm region in Alola , many regions where more warm then cold, now 8 gen would be time for a freezing cold region with a harsh winter.
     
  16. Matoka

    Matoka Pokemon to discover and Chinese Riddles to solve!

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    Sinnoh Remakes

    Sinnoh was the coldest region so far, but yes, I would like a cold cold region.
     
  17. Matleo

    Matleo Active Member

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    The buff they got this gen is very nice.

    Still want fire types to somehow get Frozen atleast for one turn. (fire types should also get frozen but have a 67,5 % thaw chance)

    Ice realy good need a draning move and a Contact freezing ability.

    (they could make pokemon with Fur Coat, Thick Fat , Overcoat get rid (thawed)of freze faster
    (if they fear overuse) thaw chance would be not like normally 20% but rather 40% when having those abilities and Pokémon can attack on the turn that they defrost)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  18. Lufenian

    Lufenian It all starts here.

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Matleo

    Matleo Active Member

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    Your reaction: a move with 100% freeze status is made.... - Pokemon X Message Board for 3DS - Page 2 - GameFAQs

    creating, changing, buffing and nerfing of old and new abilities , moves and freeze status will work the best way.

    Beak Blast could protect from freeze and free the user from frozen solid.

    Pokemon with rolling(steam roller, gyroball, rollout) and spinning moves(rapid spin) should be able to move and thaw out faster.

    Ghost pokemon free from frozen solid after one turn. (its some kind of "trap" for them)

    Poison types, Electric type, Fire Types could all get a double thaw chance then other pokes taking that they all use moves that could melt the ice faster.

    Reallly would want to see a ice type version of Corrosion ability and ice type versin of Will-o-wisp or Thunder wave and
    much more.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
  20. lavandula

    lavandula Registered User

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    I don't understand why people are still being pessimistic about ice types after the introduction of Aurora Veil.
    Alolan Ninetales surely has seen quite some usage competitively in VGC, so as Vanilluxe + Sandslash combo.

    On the other hand, usage of Sun teams have dropped under Hail teams. And "traditionally", Sun teams and rain teams were THE defining weathers of previous metas.

    I'm happy with Hail teams' current performance.
    I think ice types are no longer the under dogs anymore.
     
    Matleo likes this.