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If Guzma had been the main villain...

zakisrage

SAEV DEH WHALEZ!
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...would you have enjoyed Pokemon Sun and Moon as much?

Before Sun and Moon came out, I genuinely thought Lusamine was going to be the Big Good of the games instead of the Big Bad. Her being the Big Bad, as well as the Aether Foundation being bad, were my favourite things about the game, since it really shattered a lot of fans' expectations, since a lot of pre-release media implied Guzma to be the Big Bad and Lusamine to not be evil.

How would you feel about Pokemon Sun and Moon if Guzma had been the Big Bad (like the pre-release media seemed to imply) and not subordinate to Lusamine, and Lusamine was good instead of evil?

IMO, I would have still liked the game if Guzma was the Big Bad and the Aether Foundation was on your side, but I would have felt the plot to be a bit more cliche (since Nintendo seems to love the "dark is evil" trope. Take FE: Fates for example - Garon, Iago, Hans, and Anankos are all as obviously evil as it gets). I kinda like it better having Lusamine being the main villain and the Aether Foundation being evil, since it subverts what we expected from Nintendo.

Don't get me wrong, Guzma is one of Sun and Moon's best characters (and so is Lusamine), but if Guzma was the one letting the Ultra Beasts attack Alola, I'd probably see him differently...
 
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since it really shattered a lot of fans' expectations, since a lot of pre-release media implied Guzma to be the Big Bad and Lusamine to not be evil.

What sites were you visiting? Basically everybody here predicted that Aether/Lusamine would be villainous. (If anything, the surprise was that Aether as a whole turned out not to be evil; it was a legit organization being exploited by one bad apple.)

How would you feel about Pokemon Sun and Moon if Guzma had been the Big Bad (like the pre-release media seemed to imply) and Lusamine was good instead of evil?

Hard to say since we don't really know what his goal in that capacity would be. How does it change the parts of the story about Nebby and Ultra Space? I guess they'd still want Cosmog because it's a rare Pokémon, but then what?
 
I'm the type who tends to dismiss fan speculation, so that's probably why. It often comes to bite me in the backside when fan speculation turns out to be true. I guess my expectations of Sun and Moon were a bit low...

You're right. Guzma trying to target Nebby probably wouldn't make as much sense as Lusamine trying to target Nebby. Lusamine has the knowledge about the Ultra Beasts and the resources to capture them (not to mention the money) that Guzma doesn't. Lusamine's wealth is probably what speaks the most. The Aether Paradise is like a floating city, while Team Skull's base is a dilapidated mansion. If anything, Guzma being the Big Bad probably wouldn't make sense at all. Seeing him target Nebby would seem like Team Rocket in the anime targeting Pikachu.
 
I don't find Guzma interesting, so no. But the ex-kahuna that created Team Skull to begin with... could have potentially been better than Lusamine. A plot about Team Skull taking their revenge on the guardians may have been interesting.
 
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He (and most of Skull) were a bit too goofy (for lack of a better word) for my liking. I couldn't take them seriously enough to be considered strong enough villains. And after the intro I figured they weren't the only villains. I was surprised Skull was working for Lusamine and rather liked it that way. Even Guzma seemed more henchman than leader before the revelation.
 
I would have been Okay with it but there would always be that Voice in my head that would be saying Guzma was great and everything but why couldn't we have had Female lead Villain for once.
 
What sites were you visiting? Basically everybody here predicted that Aether/Lusamine would be villainous. (If anything, the surprise was that Aether as a whole turned out not to be evil; it was a legit organization being exploited by one bad apple.)
Not to mention that the opening scene in the game literally showed Lillie running away from Aether Paradise. Game Freak didn't even pretend that we didn't all know.

If Guzma had been the main villain, I don't think we could have taken him seriously. Lysandre tried to be serious but his grunts were joke characters. The way the game was set up allowed for joke character grunts and a serious villain team at the same time.
 
I think I probably would have enjoyed it more. The villains in Pokémon are invariably goofy in some way anyway, even when they're trying to be serious, so on that level I appreciate throwing the pretence to the wind and just embracing it. I'll caveat my next remarks with this: I haven't quite completed the game yet so my opinions may change.

I find Lusamine goofy in much the same way as the likes of Lysandre, Ghetsis and Cyrus before her - the drama of the Lillie/Gladion plot just seems to be trying to distract me from Lusamine's bizarre motivations, which are cranked right up in the most melodramatic way possible. I can't take her seriously because she's not so much a character as a collection of evil tropes glued together
 
Guzma feels a lot less threatening than Lusamine, however if his character was handled in the right way, and they perhaps further developed his intentions. For now, Guzma doesn't seem the type to want to have the ultra beasts attack Alola personally, he has no reason for doing it (other than possibly, obeying orders, but this would still leave him as a secondary antagonist or even a borderline anti-villain) instead of a primary antagonist.

Guzma would need a more of a motivation, I feel like Guzma is characterized mostly by his sense of bitterness and sense that he has been 'wronged' by the society that he lives in (I think his manipulation from Lusamine may have also served to boost these in some way, but in this version of events, we are assuming Lusamine is at least a protagonist, so it's not likely that's she's been manipulating Guzma, at least not too much). So if Guzma were to somehow be the one to summon the ultra beasts he will probably be driven by the sense of bitterness/injustice. He might see it as revenge against a system that he felt betrayed him, or perhaps in a more narcissistic guise, considered that the entire system was so 'flawed' and 'unfair' (where, in reality, it wasn't so bad, Guzma just lacked the skills). That they only way to solve the problem, Guzma saw, would be to destroy it. Guzma could also be kind of reformed this way, although he sought to destroy the Island System challenge put in place, watching the UBs attacking Alola (and there is a large possibility that the world is now too at risk). Guzma would show the fear that he hides deep down. Although, now, because of this fear, Guzma won't be there to aid the player. It'll be up to the player alone to stop the UBs.

Another way to make Guzma the villian would be to change is motivations somewhat, and make him the 'always want to be the stronger one' type. But he'll see this more of a way to 'prove' himself against the people and society that seemed to reject him. He'll want to get hold of an ultra-beast purely for himself, so he could use it in battle. Of course this leads to all sorts of crazy happenings, simply because Guzma isn't careful enough. Although the Aether Foundation and the player manage to control the UBs and Guzma. The Aether Foundation are still presented as being somewhat harsh on Guzma, who is really a young man who wasn't really sure what he was doing in the first place.
 
given that i don't think SM's story was all that great (at least it was more detailed, i suppose), i don't think Guzma being the primary antagonist would've neither improved nor hurt it much.
 
I think I would've preferred him as the main boss really, but then without the whole Cosmog and Ultra Beasts thing. When Team Skull was revealed, I was hoping we'd get exactly that: just a team that's pissed off about the Island Challenge and is therefore messing with it. No bigger thing about wanting to take over the region or wanting to kill everyone or whatever. Po Town would've made for a nice end mission, you gotta free a town from them and battle Guzma at the end. And then they probably somehow realize the Island Challenge isn't so bad after all, etc.

Lusamine's story just made little sense, she's just crazy because she is, without a really good reason. And the whole Ultra Beasts thing is just so weird and out of place too, they and Lusamine have absolutely nothing to do with the region and its culture, they're just there to add something extra to the plot that didn't really have to be there. I really would've preferred the above story, just simple and fitting within the rest of the story.
 
Yes and No. If we stick to the story of Alola's traditions and the sheer importance of the Island Challenges being rite of passages for youths and the consequences of failure/rejecting this (sadly, the game never touched much upon "failure" or just how far one can go to be deemed "a grown and capable person" but instead threw the poked up bits of the glamor of being Island Champs and Captains instead) then Guzma has the power to be a strong moral antagonist.

Team Skull is mostly made up of lost souls who failed/fled from their Trials and genuinely are deemed failure Trainers (though as far as the game showed, its the dumb crap they pull which really sets people off). Guzma himself is a bitter dude and feels he's been cheated by cruel, archaic traditions that (due to its rulings) refuses to acknowledge him as anything much (which is, that he and he alone is the strongest).

If they were willing to expand his character, create a back story for Plumeria and genuinely go a bit more into the original Skull we could've had a nice kid friendly spiel on the good and bad of traditions (and being too big for your britches in Guzma's case) or some such.

However, given the mishmash plot the game decided to go with, Guzma, while easily could have been a high tier nuisance, could never have been the true big bad. Him being a lackey is fine I'm just turned off by all the tell (or slightly garnish) but don't show (until it outta nowhere) in this game
 
Of course my main hang-up with the idea of Guzma being the main villain is that it removes the personal connection to Lillie. That's really the whole reason why Lusamine exists - not to be especially compelling in her own right (I think she's largely fine by the series' standards; her backstory involves heavier drama than the series is able to chew, but points for trying), but to facilitate Lillie's development. Personally, I think Guzma realizing that the trials aren't actually intended to marginalize him (duh) and that he should maybe be less of a criminal jerk (duh) isn't a worthy trade-off in terms of what gets to be the central story. Plus they already did that angle better with Team Magma/Aqua anyway.
 
although, with Lusamine out of the way the story could be a whole lot more focused than it is now.

I didn't think that the story was altogether very unfocused, personally. The only parts where I think it starts to fray are where they start to tack on extra bits of crazy to Lusamine, but those are negligible in the grand scheme of things due to their irrelevance. I think the games follow a fairly clear path to the point they want to make, and I think Lusamine is an important stepping stone on that path. I mean, structurally speaking, she's just the Team Skull Boss wearing the wrong clothes.
 
Yeah.... no offense to you Esserise, but if Lusamine only exists to empower & justify Lillie's "story" (which honestly railroaded a much larger and more important problem at hand at the time all while costing the UBs and Zygarde their time to shine) then that means Lillie herself is a problem, doesn't it?

EDIT: And no, since Nebby and Ultra Space would always be a thing (and even if it wasn't) creating a bond with her and dealing with it would have always been an eventually bridge to cross. Lusamine or no.
 
Yeah.... no offense to you Esserise, but if Lusamine only exists to empower & justify Lillie's "story" (which honestly railroaded a much larger and more important problem at hand at the time all while costing the UBs and Zygarde their time to shine) then that means Lillie herself is a problem, doesn't it?

Given that the whole story is about Lillie, no, I wouldn't say so.

What "more important problem" did she take away from? Team Skull on their own are a nuisance at best. The Ultra Beasts aren't an imminent threat. The only reason why these things even become involved is because of the core thread of Lillie/Cosmog/Aether. Lusamine wants Cosmog. Lillie feels empathy for Cosmog and steals it. Outward from there is where the other story angles coalesce (the reason Lusamine wants Cosmog is to reach Ultra Space, the reason Skull are involved is because Lusamine uses them to retrieve Cosmog), but it's Lillie protecting Cosmog from her mother that forms the centerpiece of this conflict. And for that to flow, Lillie has to share a personal space with a villainous presence. Guzma wouldn't make sense in that regard, because then Lillie's big, steely rebellion speech loses its personal element. She has no reason to want to pursue Guzma into Ultra Space and give him a talking-to. Her mother on the other hand is a loose end, with whom she still has unresolved grievances (and a hope that she can be redeemed). That, along with Nebby's evolution into Cosmoem, continues to motivate her and forms the drive for the last act of the story.


Why are we still pretending that Zygarde was ever going to be a meaningful part of any story?
 
1. I already said Nebby & Ultra Space was bridge that was going to be crossed one way or the other. The just decided to take the most ham-fisted and drama thicken route and couldn't even smooth any of that out.
Also, yes, granted as much as I want to revive Nebby I think otherworldly Titans who were setup to be dangerous (tell but don't show at that point of course) early on running amok in the land is a huger issue than little girl wanting to go to Ultra Space to tell Mommy she sucks. Esp. if Mommy dearest had no intention on leaving.

Of course, outside Hapu telling us of her her and Fini getting their ass handed to them badly we never see the effects of damages should we hastily try to glide out there. Makes it easier to focus on Lillie's little problem.

2. There's a difference between "pretending" and "hoping". I was "hoping" Big Z got his time to shine in game along side the otherworldly Titans who gave a small sliver of promise of a cool sci-fi plot. Of course, this meant prof Burnet, Gladion (both of who was also horribly underutilized) and mostly Null would've had more time to shine. But that's not really here no there.

3. The game was a mishmash of multiple plots both major and minor that the team probably couldn't handle in one larger "Tales of" style story dropped it all in a hat and eventually chose to focus on the centerpiece story (Lillie and Cosmog). And even then...even frickin' then, there was no focus on any of that when it counted. No bothering to visit the relics, no exploration (before plot drop) on Nebby, no slow development of Lillie's discovery of self-worth and Pokemon battles.
I'd have been all for a nice side quest of going back to Island One just for her to try her hand at Trainer stuff at the school but nope no. Instead we got all of that instead.

Like I said, no offense and while also feel bringing Lusamine to (Trainer) justice is also high on the list (assuming she planned on ever coming back anyway). I don't think it's right to handwave what could have been an interesting (and if we had focused writing, quite...a something given Pokemon's kid-friendly environment) villainess just because poor Lillie (poor Lillie more like poor Gladion, really) needed a personal hurdle.

But back on topic, Guzma: Embodiment of destruction itself just needing the firepower to be it or local disillusioned failed prodigy turned local violent street bully? You decide.
 
bothering to visit the relics, no exploration (before plot drop) on Nebby, no slow development of Lillie's discovery of self-worth and Pokemon battles.
Then she would feel even more badly-written then You're making out. Lillie does not like battles. Would it make sense for her to Start battling suddenly? She had her development when she changed her clothing, which showed her independence from her mother.
You don't have to be a trainer to be a good character.
 
If Guzma had been the main villain, I might have enjoyed Sun and Moon's story a little more. I'm not pleased with Aether's turnaround.

Really, I'd say "good person actually being bad" is an even worse and predictable cliche than "dark is evil". It would have been more interesting for Lusamine to defy our expectations and not go villain on us.
 
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