Is Ash's Loss in Loss in Kalos League Justifiable?

[conner123321]

if you ask me, then no. it wasnt. i believe that SM should not have been the season it was. XY was a perfect ending point for ash, finally winning a league by beating his strongest rival and getting the girl (serena).
heck, the ONLY reason we even got the ending of SM (even tho it was great) and the PWC was because the writers understood they messed up.
ash didnt even become a pokemon master even today so what was the point? they could have even had him win the kalos league, get the kiss from serena, do the trials in alola and then head off into the world in a better version of journeys with brock and serena (can we all agree go and chloe were useless? actually the whole point of the research fellow was useless/ why cant ash just move from region to region in search of stronger and stronger trainers? why does he need to be in a useless lab doing useless things with useless characters???) traveling the world reuniting with all of his companions while beating actual recurring characters and not characters of the day. if they did let him beat alain in the kalos leagye they could have even get tobias in the masters 8 since alain's story was already done. he wouldnt have to get destroyed by leon for no pont whatsoever

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Looking back now, Alain was basically Tobias, a league rival created to stop him from becoming the champion, and the end of the show.

Someone finally tells the truth, Alain was a league rival.

Kanto: Top 16

Nap time for Charizard

Johto: Top 8

Legitimate loss

Hoenn: Top 8 (lost against the champion)

Hoenn Team + Reserves = GG Tyson

Sinnoh: Top 4

Blatant roadblock

Kalos: Runner Up

Less blatant roadblock

Alola: Region's Champion

Big fish in a small pond

Journeys: World Champion

Needed multiple gimmicks to get the win over Leon.

 

[Poke Trey]

All these years later, yes. Thank you SM and JN!

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Personally, I think DP would have been a more fitting end for Ash's story than XY. I can understand why to a point since he got to the finals for the first time, but I think DP was Ash at his peak, his DP team was more solid, if not more consistent, by comparison and I think they would have been more willing to use his reserves in a Champion League than they were in the Master Class. Granted, I think it would have been too late to replace Ash in DP too, but I think that it would have been a more fitting place to end his story than a lot of other places fans have argued about for years.

100% Agreed, Ash's DP team was damn near fully developed, unlike JN, Ash in DP had plenty of on screen time training his pokemon whether it be from him or someone else.

He met all of the E4 members including the Sinnoh Champion. Ash took his role as a trainer more seriously in Hoenn, used his classic unorthodoxed strategies during the Battle Frontier saga and now it all comes to full circle in Sinnoh where Ash puts it all together.

His main rival Paul pushed Ash more than any rival ever did before or after the DP series which says how big of an impact he left. This forced Ash to train more and be more strategic (Counter Shield)(Ice Aqua Jet)(Switching).

The Sinnoh League was the perfect time for Ash to win and ultimately end his story. Having trainers like Ash,Paul,Conway and Tobias showed that this league was very competitive. But had there'd not been a Tobias ever existing I see no other scenario where Ash could lose here.

He was in his prime as a trainer, had a strong regional team and used his reserves, he had defeated the biggest obstacle standing in front of him in Paul who at the time was built up as a tougher opponent than any of Ash's opponents from previous leagues, so in my opinion Ash vs Paul should've been in the finals because outside of Trollbias there were no other trainers on their level.

 

[skynerel]

Someone finally tells the truth, Alain was a league rival.

Nap time for Charizard

Legitimate loss

Hoenn Team + Reserves = GG Tyson

Blatant roadblock

Less blatant roadblock

Big fish in a small pond

Needed multiple gimmicks to get the win over Leon.

Where do you put Unova?

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Where do you put Unova?

In the Hoenn category probably, Ash brought back his Charizard but it ultimately was all for nothing, we didn't even get to see it battle Reshiram like it did in the opening. Ash was better off bringing Charizard back for the Unova League where it would've increased Ash's chances of winning it all.

I'd imagine Ash goes over Cameron if he replaces Pignite for Charizard. He'd more than likely need his reserves if he were written to face Virgil and win because just his Unova team alone wouldn't be enough unless the writers decide to randomly buff up his pokemon like what happened during the M8 Tournament. Virgil defeated Cameron 6-3 but was down to his last pokemon in the finals against Dino.

 

[Hidden Mew]

Ash using his reserves to defeat Virgil's team of Eeveelutions would have felt a bit much to me. It would have most likely felt like trying too hard to make Virgil's Pokemon look really strong. I love the Eeveelutions, but I don't think it would have been believable for Ash to need his older Pokemon in order to defeat them. At the very least, I think it would have risk making the victory feel more unsatisfying. While they obviously could have handled his defeat in the Unova League better, particularly with not making Cameron too stupid to live, losing to a Lucario was at least more believable than if he lost to an Eevee.

 

[Ghost Diplocaulus]

This is going to sound weird, but I think the answer here is both yes and no. Why? Because the answer largely depends on what perspective you look at it from: on one hand, Alain was arguably too powerful at the time for Ash to realistically beat him, not to mention that the Team Flare events that followed made Alain's victory hollow anyway. On the other hand, Alain feels like a classic example of the "unbeatable rival" that Ash finally overcame at the Leagues in past sagas (Gary, Paul, Trip), and the Alain battle is notably the only time the Orange Water Shuriken was ever used (which makes the fact that it ultimately failed to score a win feel bizarre due to how rare that is for ultimate attacks in general). In short, you could easily make a case both for and against here. Personally I'm nowhere near as bothered by this as I used to be thanks to Alola and Journeys finally giving Ash vindicating wins.

I have many guesses about what was going on but it would be nice if someone explains the thought process in an interview (although there are questions things I'd prioritize over that if I got three wishes from a magic lamp).

Honestly, I don't think that the stuff with Leon had much deeper reasoning beyond just wanting to hype up Leon as much as humanely possible: the Pokemon anime has always been notoriously bad when it comes to balancing "ace" characters relative to the "non-ace" ones (see also: Infernape and Torterra back in DPP), after all.

Ash using his reserves to defeat Virgil's team of Eeveelutions would have felt a bit much to me. It would have most likely felt like trying too hard to make Virgil's Pokemon look really strong. I love the Eeveelutions, but I don't think it would have been believable for Ash to need his older Pokemon in order to defeat them. At the very least, I think it would have risk making the victory feel more unsatisfying. While they obviously could have handled his defeat in the Unova League better, particularly with not making Cameron too stupid to live, losing to a Lucario was at least more believable than if he lost to an Eevee.

While I don't think Ash should have used his reserves if he fought Virgil (if only so that the Unova team could at least go out with a bang, since most of them barely had any shining moments), I think it's worth pointing out that Cameron's Lucario only became a Lucario during the battle with Ash, so it's not like Virgil's Eevee had to win while staying an Eevee. And imo, I still think that Ash losing to a Sylveon would've been better, as not only would it have generated hype for the then upcoming Gen 6, but since it was a Pokemon that Ash had never seen before it would've made for a nice callback to Harrison's Blaziken, who similarly defeated Charizard because Ash wasn't familiar with the former's capabilities.

I would also like to point out that Cameron's Lucario was allowed to trounce a fully-evolved Flying-type as a Riolu, so I really disagree with the notion that Virgil and his Eevee would've pulled off anything any more unbelievable than what actually happened.

 

[Daren]

This is going to sound weird, but I think the answer here is both yes and no. Why? Because the answer largely depends on what perspective you look at it from: on one hand, Alain was arguably too powerful at the time for Ash to realistically beat him, not to mention that the Team Flare events that followed made Alain's victory hollow anyway. On the other hand, Alain feels like a classic example of the "unbeatable rival" that Ash finally overcame at the Leagues in past sagas (Gary, Paul, Trip), and the Alain battle is notably the only time the Orange Water Shuriken was ever used (which makes the fact that it ultimately failed to score a win feel bizarre due to how rare that is for ultimate attacks in general). In short, you could easily make a case both for and against here. Personally I'm nowhere near as bothered by this as I used to be thanks to Alola and Journeys finally giving Ash vindicating wins.

It's something of the classic debate between in and out of universe--or Doylist Vs Watsonian, as I've read it called. I've seen a number of debates--including about this--hit something of a brick wall because one person is arguing about narrative and the other person is arguing about whether it realistically make sense or could happen.

Honestly, I don't think that the stuff with Leon had much deeper reasoning beyond just wanting to hype up Leon as much as humanely possible: the Pokemon anime has always been notoriously bad when it comes to balancing "ace" characters relative to the "non-ace" ones (see also: Infernape and Torterra back in DPP), after all.

To be honest I think that really kicked into high gear during AP; OS and AG sort of had "tiers" of usefulness but tended to avoid one Pokémon dominating victories and such--Charizard maybe came close near the end of Johto but he was also used sparingly.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

On the other hand, Alain feels like a classic example of the "unbeatable rival" that Ash finally overcame at the Leagues in past sagas (Gary, Paul, Trip), and the Alain battle is notably the only time the Orange Water Shuriken was ever used (which makes the fact that it ultimately failed to score a win feel bizarre due to how rare that is for ultimate attacks in general).

This is where I always stood. Ash faced Alain three times prior to this battle and lost each time. Some won't count one of the battles Greninja had where he was overloaded by the Bond Phenomenon, but I still count it. Like Gary, Paul, and Trip, Alain was that rival Ash constantly lost to, prior to their league battle. I'd argue that Alain was similar to Tobias in the league, in the sense that his Mega Charizard X was built up as THE opponent to defeat, similar to Darkrai. I mean we had to see two battles where he swept his opponent prior to the battle with Ash. Ragarding that orange Water Shuriken, what was the point? The hyped that shot up, only for it to amount to nothing. Not even a scratch. It showed up in a general league preview, then the preview for the actual episode. What was the point of hyping it up? It didn't even show up in the Team Flare arc. Just why?

 

[Itsjustmudkipz]

I feel like the whole season was setting up ash’s win, I’m not mad about him losing to Alain but it certainly was disappointing to watch. I’m happy that he ended up winning the alola league but the battles in that one just weren’t as good as the kalos league for me. The whole rowlet falling asleep thing during ash’s battle with hau was kinda strange in my opinion. The whole xy anime made ash seem stronger than he had ever been with him beating almost all the gym leaders in one try, then the league showed just how far his kalos team could go, not far enough according to the writers… (idk where I’m going with this anymore) anyways in conclusion I wish ash won the kalos league

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

I feel like the whole season was setting up ash’s win, I’m not mad about him losing to Alain but it certainly was disappointing to watch. I’m happy that he ended up winning the alola league but the battles in that one just weren’t as good as the kalos league for me. The whole rowlet falling asleep thing during ash’s battle with hau was kinda strange in my opinion. The whole xy anime made ash seem stronger than he had ever been with him beating almost all the gym leaders in one try, then the league showed just how far his kalos team could go, not far enough according to the writers… (idk where I’m going with this anymore) anyways in conclusion I wish ash won the kalos league

I genuinely got this feeling too. It was mostly the Ash-Greninja storyline I felt was really pointing towards a win. The whole arc was about them becoming stronger and stronger together and the big obstacle was made out to be Alain. Though I wouldn't say he beat almost all the gym leaders in one try. He lost to both Viola and Wulfric on his first try. Viola was really meant to show him that Kalos Gym Leaders were tougher and Wulfric was due to the ongoing Ash-Greninja storyline struggles of unlocking the power.

 

[P_S_B]

I and a number of other people were under the impression that the writers wrote Ash to defeat Alain but then someone higher up in the anime process said, "no, he can't win," and they begrudgingly had to rewrite the ending of the match to what we got. As others have said the story narrative up to that point was setting up a win and the Team Flare arc kicking in meant that they didn't have to worry about the implications of Ash winning since the league got wrecked anyway. Plus I recall several anime staff members tweeting their disappointment over the loss, potentially further implying that it wasn't their decision for him to lose, though I don't think the episode's writer was one of them.

The level of public backlash is almost certainly the reason he won the Alola League, the only drawback being the overall lack of powerful opponents from how the Alola League was run compared to previous league competitions.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

The level of public backlash is almost certainly the reason he won the Alola League, the only drawback being the overall lack of powerful opponents from how the Alola League was run compared to previous league competitions.

And when you eliminate the Z-Move gimmicks from the equation it's even more of a joke.

 

[Nichole the Otter]

I and a number of other people were under the impression that the writers wrote Ash to defeat Alain but then someone higher up in the anime process said, "no, he can't win," and they begrudgingly had to rewrite the ending of the match to what we got. As others have said the story narrative up to that point was setting up a win and the Team Flare arc kicking in meant that they didn't have to worry about the implications of Ash winning since the league got wrecked anyway. Plus I recall several anime staff members tweeting their disappointment over the loss, potentially further implying that it wasn't their decision for him to lose, though I don't think the episode's writer was one of them.

The level of public backlash is almost certainly the reason he won the Alola League, the only drawback being the overall lack of powerful opponents from how the Alola League was run compared to previous league competitions.

Definitely does suggest executives interfered and still declared it was forbidden for Ash to win a League. The Alola win definitely wouldn't have been a thing if it wasn't for the huge backlash, because that joke of a League was clearly written as damage control. Ash winning Alola was far too obvious because no one else in Alola managed to have a full team. In fact, it may have also led to the increasing amount of plot armor enabled in SM and JN.