Is it just me, or has Gen V been getting a lot of hate lately?

[SpikOriundo]

Oh yeah, forgot about Klink.
Seriously. A Pokémon called Klink, that evolves into Klank, which is a Klink with more gears, that evolves once again into Klinklank? Which is a Klank with more gears?
That's the only thing I can't look at on Gen V. Even a Pokémon based on trash and sludge is better. Not saying that Trubbish and Garbodor are bad, I actually like them. Trubbish is very cute, too.

 

[lavandula]

Gen V was my favorite gen after Gen 7 in terms of Gameplay and storyline. Competitive play was also quite balanced.

The the I don't like about Gen V was the design of the Pokemon characters.
I felt like many Gen V Pokemon were simply not aesthetically appealing, even when they tried.
I felt like the elemental monkeys could be designed better, or be called forms of a same Pokemon species like Oricorio.
I felt like Cobalion, Terrakion and Virizion , Landorus, Thundurus, Tornadus could have a better color scheme, especially when they are supposed to be legendaries.
I felt like they should have made more difference between the original form of Landorus, Thundurus and Tornadus.
I felt like Sawk and Throh would be better with horns (like their original design) than their weird, ugly eyebrow.

And many more.

I wouldn't call myself silly because I have many friends who are professional designers, and they get especially picky when it comes to Gen 5 Pokemon.

PS: Gen 5 as a whole also did the worst in General Elections in Japan.

 

[Silktree]

I felt like they should have made more difference between the original form of Landorus, Thundurus and Tornadus.

You mean that the Therian forms should have been the only ones. The genies are butt ugly.

 

[Esserise]

I will admit that despite my undying love for Gen 5, the battle sprites are pretty ugly.

On the subject of the Pokémon themselves, I actually really liked how outlandish several of them were. It's partially what brought me back into the franchise, was seeing weird stuff like Sigilyph or delightfully goofy things like Vanilluxe and Klink (Klinklang is actually one of my favorite Pokémon). I also like the Incarnate Formes of the kami trio... well, I like one of them. You can pick whichever of the three for that because I think they're individually fine, but having three that all look so similar all at once is a bit too much. I mean, they're still better than the lake trio, especially since they have the Therian Formes as well, but yeah. That does get at another criticism of Gen 5 that I hold; I agree that there's maybe a bit too much repetition, or things like the Solosis, Gothita, Klink, and Vanillite lines where each stage introduces mostly gradual or subtle changes, and you could probably rework the concept down to fit a two-stage line, which does make it feel as though some of the Pokémon families were contrived to be longer in order to pad out the Regional Dex.

Personally my biggest issues with gen V were A) no hyper training

I'm confused as to how you can hold the lack of a feature that wouldn't even exist for another five years against Gen 5.

Pokemon that are poster children of the developers "running out of ideas".

Although that "criticism" was always complete and utter hogwash on the fandom's part. It doesn't actually mean anything; the face value meaning of it is demonstrably untrue, and beneath that, it's just a lazy, unproductive, malignant-sounding buzzphrase.

If they were to say, "I don't like Vanillite because I'm not so keen on object-based Pokémon," that'd be fine. If they were to say, "I wish it changed more from Vanillite to Vanillish, instead of just getting bigger," that'd be totally valid. If they were to say, "I just think an ice cream Pokémon is stupid," then hey, that's their view. But the "running out of ideas" meme? It's just foolish.

 

[Peppermint Phoenix]

@Esserise It's really simple actually. The lack of a reliable method to get good Iv's makes enjoying BW2's marvelous postgame hampered and my loathing of the IV mechanic makes me like all gens less including Sun and moon for it's lack of ability to grind for levels and bottlecaps faster.

 

[Esserise]

@Esserise It's really simple actually. The lack of a reliable method to get good Iv's makes enjoying BW2's marvelous postgame hampered and my loathing of the IV mechanic makes me like all gens less including Sun and moon for it's lack of ability to grind for levels and bottlecaps faster.

So it's the lack of IV accessibility/malleability in general? I can dig that. Personally I never really deal with IVs except in specific cases, so that simply wasn't a factor for me.

 

[Almonds]

It isn't a recent thing; Gen5 was hated from the moment it was released. The hates were mostly on how the pokemon designs were horrible, the EXP scaling (which is indeed the worst), the pixelated sprites, etc... not to mention Best Wishes was a train wreck itself.

But personally, I LOVE the Gen5 games. The story was the best I ever saw; many of my favorite characters are from Gen5; and the music was superb. True, BW had nothing to do in the post-game, but B2W2 fixed that by adding a ton of stuff to do. They even had freaking Challenge Mode where everyone's AI increases all over the region. It's one of the things they did right in Gen5.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

They even had freaking Challenge Mode where everyone's AI increases all over the region. It's one of the things they did right in Gen5.

Can't detect if it's sarcasm or not...

It's too difficult to be accessed in my eyes to be done right.

 

[Silktree]

I don't think Challenge Mode affects the AI... Just levels and some teams.

 

[coolcatkim22]

I loathed B/W when it was first released. I could not understand for the life of me why so many people liked 5th gen, I can at least sort of understand B2/W2 being liked a little but the whole of it is unnecessary, but let me explain why I disliked B/W so much:

First off it was trying to be fresh by bringing an all new region separate from past ones, kind of like what R/S did but more extreme. And I wouldn't have such a problem with this is if the game could stand with its own new Pokemon, but it doesn't. They didn't actually make anything different, they just replaced all their old Pokemon with copies e.g. Tympole = Poliwag, Roggenrola = Geodude, etc. I mean, why go through all that effort to make all those Pokemon and half a good chunk fill the same roles the old Pokemon would have done anyways. I did like quite a few this gen like Trubbish (yes, I like Turbbish), Victini, and Heatmor, but they didn't really make up for Pokemon like Klink and Vanillite.

The game map was incredibly linear. Apparently D/P was so confusing to players (the travelling to the three lakes part specifically) that they decided to dumb it down and make it basically a giant circle. I think they could have made less confusing without sacrificing the adventure. Going down a straight route not only made it boring but there also weren't a lot of great environments. Sure there were mountains, a forest, a desert, some ocean, but they were always fully explored by humans areas, making you feel less like an adventurer and more like a tourist.

And that's the main problem I have with B/W, it feels nothing like a Pokemon game, it feels like a completely different rpg. Made you feel less like an adventurer and more like a soap opera character. I guess what they were trying to do is be a rpg like Final Fantasy but the reason I like Pokemon is its not like any other rpg out there. Pokemon focuses on adventuring, and ambition, strategy and skill. These games focused more around the human characters, but I don't play Pokemon for human characters I come here for the Pokemon. The Pokemon felt like minor characters within their own game, even Zekrom and Reshiram. It just made it feel like a regular rpg with Pokemon thrown in.

And speaking of human characters, lets talk about them. They're really bad, like really bad. I don't know why anybody likes them. Bianca doesn't do anything even though she keeps saying she wants to become stronger supposedly, her story about her father not believing in her is wrapped up really quickly and she never does anything to make me think she's become a stronger person. Cheren just spends most of the time questioning why he's doing anything, far more than any kid his age should (I blame Alder, keep your mid-life crisis to yourself old man). I don't get it, how does one start on a Pokemon quest, or really an ambition of any sort, and not know the reason they're doing it? It's a pretty poor character arc if you ask me.

Ghetsis and N are both stupid and insane, I can't really relate to either of them because they're so far out there. They're basically the heart of the story, even being in the intro, and I still don't get either of them. Ghetsis is just evil for evil's sake and comes up with this convoluted, never going to work plan which involved pretending like he's an altruist (HAHAHA) and then getting everybody to give up their Pokemon, and I don't know, somehow use N to get a dragon. It's all relies on people being too stupid to see through his lies (which about everybody is) and predicting that everyone will act in the way he's planned.

N is just all over the place. I can never pick up on how he feels about anything but then again, most of the dialogue in this game is just philosophy instead a character acting based on personality. He's suppose to be super intelligent but he falls for Ghetsis's tricks. He has the ability to talk to Pokemon but knows nothing of kindness of people (so none of the Pokemon Ghetsis brought had ever met a kind human ever before N? How did Ghetsis screen for that? Heck, how did he know none of the Pokemon would be smart enough to figure out what he was doing and let N know he was being manipulated), yet is so ready to split humans from Pokemon; not even knowing if that's even possible. I think I'm suppose to really like him but he just comes off as some sort of fangirl idol, gary stu, choosen one with an angsty backstory, wannabe. He's a character solely created to pull on the heart strings of the players and I'm utterly repulsed by such a character.

I could talk about the characters more but I think I've made my point. I could write several more paragraphs with what's wrong with this game but I think I'll keep it sort and sum up what I thought about the visuals and music.

Some of the music in this game is quite beautiful, Driftveil city and Opelucid being two of my favourites. But some of it is just dreadful like Unwavering Emotions and the Legendary battle music. I don't know why people like them either, Unwavering Emotions does not work as looping music at all, it feels like it's building up to some main chorus but it just repeats again, annoying. The legendary music is all over the place, speeding up and slowing down randomly. I get it's suppose to match the slow and fast parts of the battle but it doesn't and can't match the speed my battling is going at so it just feels nauseous, like I'm in a car that keeps breaking suddenly.

The visuals are pretty bad. I do like what they tried to do, adding 3d models, constant moving sprites, it's pretty innovative only problem is, it doesn't work. Everything just becomes a pixelated mess, and I mean everything, overworld, in-battle, during minigames; the only thing that'd not pixelated to heck is the intro. Every time I play the pixels are so noticeable that it takes me right out of the game.

In short, that's what I didn't like about B/W. B2/W2 was a lot better, I wish Ghetsis wasn't the main villain but still, not bad. It still suffers from a lot of similar problems B/W has but it tries to improve everything, music, visuals, story, character; even the minigames were better (and I didn't even touch on how bad the musicals are). I commend it on its improvements but really, this generation didn't have to exist. There were too many limitations on the DS to do what they wanted and even though they tried so hard to get a good story going (seriously, 1.5 years to come up with the story to B/W?) it just didn't work. I feel it lost touch with why people like Pokemon which is why I'm glad X/Y kind of brought it back to what we were use to (even though it has its own set of problems, though still less than B/W has).

 

[Silktree]

@coolcatkim22 You bring up valid points about the story, but you don't really think that RSE, DPPt or (especially) XY did a better job, do you? I can't even agree about B2W2, since the only reason I cared about BW's story was the philosophical musing about whether or not people have a right to "own" Pokemon, and that was all but gone in B2W2 in favor of Ghetsis' madness and Colress' wishy-washy ideas. BW would have been better off without Ghetsis altogether.

And credit should be given where due: The gym leaders were the most fleshed out ensemble at the time (not counting Skyla and the Striation trio). By now, SM's Kahunas are better, as are Kiawe, Mallow and Acerola.

Also, only Castelia seemed pixelated to me.

 

[Almonds]

Can't detect if it's sarcasm or not...

It's too difficult to be accessed in my eyes to be done right.

Why do you think it is sarcasm?? I've made other posts about how great Challenge mode was in other threads, and repeatedly said its one of the features they should bring back (even if it is just to make everyone stop complaining about pokemon being too easy). When you select Challenge mode, the major NPCs such as the Elite4 and Colress and such have a full team with everyone holding items. Someone from the E4 definitely had a Flying-Gem with a pokemon knowing Acrobatics. They had better teams and movesets, and if that's not a good way to experience increased AI without having to raise teams and get continuously wrecked at Battle Facilities, then I don't know what.

Also, Challenge Mode offers more prize money.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

Why do you think it is sarcasm??

Since I saw many people discussing how difficult it was to access the mode in the first place.

Challenge Mode increases some opponents' artificial intelligence and the level of their Pokémon, starting from 1 level and reaching 5 levels by the end of the game. Gym Leaders and Elite Four members will also have an extra Pokémon on their team, as well as different movesets and held items. Their IVs are also increased to 30. This mode is unlocked after defeating the Champion in Pokémon Black 2.

To unlock Easy Mode in Black 2 and Challenge Mode in White 2, the respective keys for each version needs to be transferred from a player with the opposite version via the Unova Link.

I've seen people argue what's the use of challenge mode when you've already beat the game. And to get it in white 2, you need to find someone with the opposite version.

 

[Silktree]

They had better teams and movesets, and if that's not a good way to experience increased AI without having to raise teams and get continuously wrecked at Battle Facilities, then I don't know what.

That is not what AI is. Does Challenge Mode make those trainers switch out their Pokemon or anticipate the player's moves?

 

[Zweilous]

I honestly can't say the Pokemon felt like minor characters in BW. There is more of a focus on the human characters, but the whole point of the games were about whether or not people were justified in 'owning' Pokemon, and that debate does form the central conflict between you and N as he battles you in a clash of ideals as well as influence some of the experiences of the characters you interact with. N's experiences with Pokemon leading him to believe people don't (and eventually changing that mindset through his travels and interacting with other's Pokemon) while yours and others experiences lead you to believe otherwise, and through those experiences you conflict with him to find whose ideals were stronger. Without the Pokemon, that clash of ideals would be completely non-existant as it's only through emphasizing the relationship of Pokemon that BW's story can work, so I don't believe they can be in the background that much if the story has to rely on them to that extent.

Also, in terms of Reshiram and Zekrom, I honestly felt their stories were one of the better ones for the Cover Legendaries. The characters do give a good amount of time to their lore, effect on the locations and history of the region, among other things so it didn't feel like they were nobodies that popped up out of nowhere, they had a clear place in their world. In terms of the plot, you also still had the regional team seeking one of them out for reasons that suit their goals, you seeking out the other becomes a goal of yours as well as you try to oppose them, and their repeated clashes does play out within the events of the game. So they still had a role to play in the events and I can't say they felt underutilized then any of their brethren in that regard.

 

[Silktree]

They were handled better than most mascots, but they still felt like plot devices. Did one of them really side with N, or was it just trying to help him understand that he's wrong? This was not addressed properly.

I prefer Nebby coming through for Lillie, and vice-versa. Suicune is the best legendary in terms of characterization, even if certain aspects remain a mystery.

 

[Esserise]

True, BW had nothing to do in the post-game

See, it's times like this when I realize that I simply don't have a clue as to what this fandom wants when it comes to post-game content. There's quite a bit to do even after the main game of BW.

Also, in terms of Reshiram and Zekrom, I honestly felt their stories were one of the better ones for the Cover Legendaries. The characters do give a good amount of time to their lore, effect on the locations and history of the region, among other things so it didn't feel like they were nobodies that popped up out of nowhere, they had a clear place in their world. In terms of the plot, you also still had the regional team seeking one of them out for reasons that suit their goals, you seeking out the other becomes a goal of yours as well as you try to oppose them, and their repeated clashes does play out within the events of the game. So they still had a role to play in the events and I can't say they felt underutilized then any of their brethren in that regard.

Because they're the only mascot trio whose lore bothers to be a bit more complex and story-like than "okay this one makes land and this one makes sea and they fight a lot pssssssssst there's also a sky one that makes them stop fighting by yelling loudly at them" or "GOD OF TIME!!!!!! and GOD OF SPACE!!!!!! NOW CREATE A GALAXY FOR ME, MY PRETTIES" or "oh by the way, the thing on the cover actually exists and we've low-key plugged it into our death laser just now."

Even Solgaleo/Lunala don't have much of a story themselves; their significance comes more by way of Nebby being a MacGuffin. Nebby can open wormholes, so Lusamine needs it, and Solgaleo/Lunala can open wormholes too, so we need them to chase after Lusamine.

In fairness, the gradual evolution of Nebby was a unique twist. Though it's debatable as to how well it's executed. All of the early fuss about Lillie visiting the tapu's ruins comes to nothing in particular. We're told Cosmog would die if it were forced to use all of its power, which seems to be what Lusamine makes it do, and it... evolves instead, for no clear reason. And why does sounding the flutes at the altar make it evolve further? Rather than the altar actually summoning an existing Solgaleo/Lunala? We're given no reason to expect the evolution to happen; as far as we can tell, there's no record of it having ever happened that way before. It's awfully convenient.

Although granted, I do take some issue with the bit about Reshiram/Zekrom's lore saying how one could never triumph over the other and how the brothers were evenly matched and then that... just doesn't apply in the climax, which necessitates that one dragon prevail over the other.

 

[Silktree]

Ho-Oh's lore is more complex than "these two dragons used to be one and now they're looking for trainers with strong truth/ideals". We don't even know what the twin heroes fought over.

I prefer Suicune (in Crystal) since it didn't just appear once for a battle, but really, the beasts and Ho-Oh complement each other.

 

[Almonds]

Since I saw many people discussing how difficult it was to access the mode in the first place.



I've seen people argue what's the use of challenge mode when you've already beat the game. And to get it in white 2, you need to find someone with the opposite version.

Yes, it's one of the things they should fix if they ever bring Challenge mode back - make it available from the beginning.

But still, I consider it better than nothing if the alternative is a post-game where everyone stays the same. There's a difference when you can tweak the circumstances to your taste.

That is not what AI is. Does Challenge Mode make those trainers switch out their Pokemon or anticipate the player's moves?

Back then, no. But they can make an improved Challenge Mode if they ever bring it back.

@Esserise
Compare postgame content B2W2>>>>>>>>>>>BW.
I guess I'm spoiled by B2W2...

 

[Silktree]

I guess that having Challenge Mode for the Elite Four rematches was nice, but it was limited to one version if you didn't have a friend to communicate with locally.

lol at Easy Mode.