Is it just me, or has Gen V been getting a lot of hate lately?

[Esserise]

Ho-Oh's lore is more complex than "these two dragons used to be one and now they're looking for trainers with strong truth/ideals".

Ehhhhh... Ho-Oh has one central legend tying it to Johto's history, and is also said to look for a pure-hearted Trainer. I don't see how it's all that more complex, or even all that different, for that matter.

My thing is that Reshiram and Zekrom are actively involved in the founding of the region. It's more complicated than usual because they started out as one being (a unique conceit compared to basically every other Legendary; to me, that just helps them stand out a bit more) that worked with humans to found the region of the games, and its relationship with those humans caused it to divide. That ties them in directly to the themes of the games, and gives them a historical context that isn't as lazy as the "God of ____" label that was used for the Gen 3 and 4 mascots.

We don't even know what the twin heroes fought over.

Sure we do. They began to argue over whether it was better to favor truth or ideals. Drayden and Iris handily spell that out for us.

Now, it would be fair to say that the games don't make much of a clear or meaningful distinction between "truth" and "ideals" and how they differ. That, I could agree to, and it is a shortcoming of the story.

Compare postgame content B2W2>>>>>>>>>>>BW.

Sure, but I don't think anyone would dispute that. But BW compared to other games?

 

[Silktree]

Ehhhhh... Ho-Oh has one central legend tying it to Johto's history, and is also said to look for a pure-hearted Trainer. I don't see how it's all that more complex, or even all that different, for that matter.

One central legend, as opposed to how many for the other mascots? We know that both Lugia and Ho-Oh roosting in Ecruteak City was instrumental for fostering friendship and hope between Pokemon and people. That was lost when the Brass Tower burned down and people feared Ho-Oh's resurrection powers. That Ho-Oh not only spared the lives of three Pokemon, but essentially turned them into legendaries, is easier to appreciate than "truth and ideals made one dragon become two, or actually three because why not."

They began to argue over whether it was better to favor truth or ideals. Drayden and Iris handily spell that out for us.

Now, it would be fair to say that the games don't make much of a clear or meaningful distinction between "truth" and "ideals" and how they differ. That, I could agree to, and it is a shortcoming of the story.

Truth and ideals are empty words without a context. I know what they mean in relation to N, although they're pretty much interchangeable, but what was the context 2500 years ago? Why should I care that the dragons used to be one if the reason for the split was left so vague?

Yes, the fact that they used to be a single Pokemon is cool and different. But so is the fact that Nebby is the child of a previous pair of Solgaleo and Lunala. We don't really know much about either story.

 

[Sahma]

Generation 5 has a wonderful story, it included various new Pokemon and finally had amazing cutscenes involving N.
Now onto the bad:
1. Sprites were not very good.
2. The pokemon seemed too pixelated.
3. They made TMs totally reusable, (this would be a good thing, if it didn't make it easy).
4. In the sequels, non-Unova Pokemon just come from nowhere, when in the original, they were impossible to catch.
5. Team Plasma basically having to real leadership, (is the real leader N or Ghetsis?)
6. Where is Black,(or White), in the sequel?
7. Last point is the Pokedex being terrible.

 

[Silktree]

TMs being reusable was a very welcome change for the post-game. I don't think it affected the main game too much, unless you're really fond of Earthquake or whatever.

 

[Boss1708]

In my opinion, Gen V is one of the best. It is the only generation sofar to give us 2 original games (the usual formula being 1 original game, and then one remake, or third version, or both).

It introduced one of my favourite regions, Unova, and one the best games (BW2). The atmosphere of Unova is just fantastic: it makes me feel as if I am really adventuring in that regon. Also the PCs. Hilbert is, imo, the best PC in the franchise, period.

The negatives for me are not many, but there is one that does bother me a lot: the battle visuals. Gen V had the absolute less appealing battle sprites in the series. I have come to realize that this affects my enjoyment of the game more than I thought. It certainly is a problem for Gen V. This is mitigated by how much I love the overworld visuals, and the music.

But in general, I have decided that currently, Unova is my co- favourite region, and BW2 is my co- favourite game.

Currently, for me, my favourite region is a tie between Johto, Hoenn and Unova. And my ffavourite games are a tie between HGSS, ORAS/Emerald, and BW2 (the respective best games of those regions). Even the soundtracks are also a tie between those 3 regions, for me.

Those respective games also hold my favourite features in the franchise: PWT (BW2), Hoenn BF (Emerald), Super Secret Bases (ORAS) and Gen IV Battle Frontier (HGSS, though originally Platinum´s).

So naturally, Gen V is great, imo. As for the hate, it definitely exists and is definitely caused by the many changes BW brought. It even took me a few yars to start liking Unova, but now I love it.

Gen V is just the new Gen III. Both divide the fandom and both kick ass imo.

 

[PkmnTrainerV]

It is the only generation sofar to give us 2 original games (the usual formula being 1 original game, and then one remake, or third version, or both).

BW2 is not an original game. It's a sequel.

 

[Esserise]

One central legend, as opposed to how many for the other mascots?

There's been one central legend for the mascots of every generation, even Mewtwo in RBY and Xerneas/Yveltal. Ho-Oh's not unique in that regard. I think only Solgaleo/Lunala can really claim to go outside of this boundary, as they get a somewhat two-pronged approach through the poem in the library, and also Nebby's personal background.

We know that both Lugia and Ho-Oh roosting in Ecruteak City was instrumental for fostering friendship and hope between Pokemon and people. That was lost when the Brass Tower burned down and people feared Ho-Oh's resurrection powers.

Not that we get any tangible evidence of this. People and Pokémon still seem to get along as fine as ever. As what you said about the twin heroes' conflict, how can we appreciate what was lost if we're never shown how things were better in the past? And what's so wrong about the present state of the relationship? I don't see how this has much of a leg up on the truth/ideals conflict in BW; they're both paper-thin aesops about working together, but BW at least provide a counterpoint perspective to grill that aesop a bit, which is presented in the form of the dragons' clashes.

Yes, the fact that they used to be a single Pokemon is cool and different. But so is the fact that Nebby is the child of a previous pair of Solgaleo and Lunala. We don't really know much about either story.

Though we at least have a "why" behind the dragons' split. It's not a complex answer, but it's something tangible. We've got no bead on why Solgaleo/Lunala perpetuate this cycle, or why they entrust their offspring to humans, and it's not even really all that clear as to how the other beast is involved given the hazy language of the poem. But it is at least different, and I agree that that's nice to see. Just as it's nice that Ho-Oh's story isn't about being a potential doomsday weapon and is rather the opposite. To be clear, I do like Ho-Oh and the beasts, I just don't see their mythology as being all that more complex compared to that of the Unova dragons, which I prefer because it's integrated more into the active plot of the games. The culmination of the Ho-Oh lore is a scrap of dialogue about eventually rebuilding the Brass Tower off-screen, whereas the culmination of the Reshiram/Zekrom lore is an actual battle between the protagonist and N with their respective beliefs on the line.

4. In the sequels, non-Unova Pokemon just come from nowhere, when in the original, they were impossible to catch.

They actually explained this, albeit very obscurely in BW. The Poké Transfer Lab on Route 15 had an accident which caused Pokémon from other regions to spill over. Presumably, they then spread throughout the region.

5. Team Plasma basically having to real leadership, (is the real leader N or Ghetsis?)

I mean, it's a simple but non-binary answer. N is the "public" leader; Ghetsis manipulates things from behind the scenes. Same deal in B2W2 with Colress. Why does it need to be one or the other?

 

[Silktree]

There's been one central legend for the mascots of every generation, even Mewtwo in RBY and Xerneas/Yveltal. Ho-Oh's not unique in that regard. I think only Solgaleo/Lunala can really claim to go outside of this boundary, as they get a somewhat two-pronged approach through the poem in the library, and also Nebby's personal background.

I thought you were saying that Reshiram and Zekrom had more than one legend.

Not that we get any tangible evidence of this. People and Pokémon still seem to get along as fine as ever.

What do we know about "as ever"? Sure enough, the Johto games don't really explain what the past circumstances were other than the two towers being used for resting and awakening, which is curious but a little vague. Perhaps the two towers served as the ancient version of a Pokemon Center, and the modern version is very recent. Maybe using technology to heal Pokemon is problematic because it devalues the risks to their lives.

A certain myth does go to show that there was a difference in the past: "There once were Pokémon that became very close to humans. There once were humans and Pokémon that ate together at the same table. It was a time when there existed no differences to distinguish the two."

I don't know why this is stated in Sinnoh rather than Johto, but at least HGSS support this by referencing Pokemon walking alongside their trainers before Poke Balls existed. Moreover, it is clear that Ho-Oh and Lugia became distant from people (each in its own way). They were essentially kicked out alongside the beasts, and it is very possible that this had a negative effect on the regular Pokemon, as well.

As what you said about the twin heroes' conflict, how can we appreciate what was lost if we're never shown how things were better in the past? And what's so wrong about the present state of the relationship?

The present state of the relationship is that Ho-Oh and Lugia can't fulfill their roles, which for the former is pretty obviously tied to healing (Sacred Ash) and in some cases resurrection. This isn't explicitly stated, but it isn't hard to read between the lines.

I don't see how this has much of a leg up on the truth/ideals conflict in BW; they're both paper-thin aesops about working together, but BW at least provide a counterpoint perspective to grill that aesop a bit, which is presented in the form of the dragons' clashes.

"But, but... The two heroes' sons started the battle again! And an instant later, Reshiram and Zekrom destroyed Unova with fire and lightning! Then, they disappeared! But, but... If people work with Pokémon in the right way, we don't have to worry anymore about the world being destroyed."

This counterpoint perspective suggests that Unova was rebuilt without the dragons' help, which makes me wonder how the older Unova was any better. Only the Abyssal Ruins give us some idea, but that just opens a can of worms due to the lack consistency (the king from the ruins predated the twin heroes). But what really bothers me is how easily the dragons destroyed what they had created, and for what? No one forced them to side with the twin heroes' sons... Shouldn't they have known better after the debacle with the twin heroes themselves? This makes them look rather mindless, since no context is provided.

The culmination of the Ho-Oh lore is a scrap of dialogue about eventually rebuilding the Brass Tower off-screen, whereas the culmination of the Reshiram/Zekrom lore is an actual battle between the protagonist and N with their respective beliefs on the line.

And that's where I give the dragons credit - for a clear payoff. I can see why that makes you favor them. But again, I have to wonder why the dragons think that two trainers should decide the fate of Pokemon in Unova. Why don't the Pokemon get to decide? I can sort of understand Zekrom being blinded by strong ideals, which are dangerous, but why is Reshiram's truth dictated by a trainer?

 

[Defiant]

It's definitely my least favourite of them all. But that doesn't mean it was bad. I liked only having new Pokemon, and the story was good and I LOVED the idea of sequels.

But as people said the anime sucked back then (not as bad as its sucking right now though!) and the region itself and Pokemon felt a bit bland.

 

[Karamazov]

4. In the sequels, non-Unova Pokemon just come from nowhere, when in the original, they were impossible to catch.

This wasn't out of nowhere; old Pokemon appeared in BW's postgame. I think it was because they escaped from the transfer lab. Within two years, old Pokemon started to invade and breed, likely egged on by trainers who wanted some exotic Pokemon. And maybe some of the old Pokemon were naturally around, but only in the post-game areas (like Riolu.)

A lot of the Pokemon from BW2's Dex already appeared in BW, too. They weren't just thrown in.

5. Team Plasma basically having to real leadership, (is the real leader N or Ghetsis?)

Ghetsis was the leader. N was publicly touted as the leader, but he was just a figurehead. In reality, Ghetsis and the sages were manipulating him to further their own goals.

 

[Bolt Strike]

See, it's times like this when I realize that I simply don't have a clue as to what this fandom wants when it comes to post-game content. There's quite a bit to do even after the main game of BW.

This. I'd gladly take BW's post game over XY or ORAS' any day.

 

[IncineROAR]

I really enjoyed the Gen V games. The anime is a different story. All the games since Gen V have had pathetic post games.

 

[coolcatkim22]

@coolcatkim22 You bring up valid points about the story, but you don't really think that RSE, DPPt or (especially) XY did a better job, do you? I can't even agree about B2W2, since the only reason I cared about BW's story was the philosophical musing about whether or not people have a right to "own" Pokemon, and that was all but gone in B2W2 in favor of Ghetsis' madness and Colress' wishy-washy ideas. BW would have been better off without Ghetsis altogether.

And credit should be given where due: The gym leaders were the most fleshed out ensemble at the time (not counting Skyla and the Striation trio). By now, SM's Kahunas are better, as are Kiawe, Mallow and Acerola.

Also, only Castelia seemed pixelated to me.

Yes, I do feel those games did a better job. Not a huge stretch better, especially not XY, but none of those games stories made me as angry, frustrated, or confused as BW.
For one, those other games didn't have characters talk so much about their beliefs, and philosophical questions, and exposition, and repeating truth and ideals over and over again,,. Nobody talks like that! It's awkward and unnatural. Sure, they had a bit of dialogue like that in all those other game but BW was the worse offender of it. There were just paragraphs of it and at some points I couldn't understand what they were saying because they never clearly explained what they meant by ideals and truth.

Another thing, I could at least kind of understand the characters motivations in other games. I think Ghetsis is the first villain I can't sympathies with at all. He doesn't even try to justify his actions he's just acts selfishly; at least other villains made the excuse of "you're a child, you couldn't possibly understand". N is suppose to be innocent but wise, but he comes off as corrupt and ignorant. He's very judgmental or other people and can't see through Ghetsis obvious lies.

Also, I didn't mention before but the whole "castle under the league" thing really both pisses me off and makes me laugh hysterically.
How? Why? How? What are they doing?
Nobody in the elite four realized they were doing this? How does this show power? It just seems stupid to me. Everybody in Team Plasma was okay was this? Where did they get the money? You'd have to steal a huge amount to fund something like this. Who thought this was a good idea? Nobody saw them doing this?!

It's stuff like that, pulls me out of the story and makes me say, why? I don't understand why anything that happens in the story happens. It's just stuff that happens because it either furthers the plot, or it allows them to shove their message down the player's throat, or they thought it would be really cool or something. Bugs the heck out of me.

As for gym leaders, I don't remember them all that well. I liked Drayden, Iris was okay. Honestly, of that region my favourite was Roxie and she only appeared in B2/W2. I didn't feel they were fleshed out characters though. People keep saying that but they just made more cameos than gym leaders of previous regions. That doesn't make them more fleshed out, it just means they have more screen presence. The only thing I remember is their job occupations, that's the only thing that stands out about them to me.

Everything seemed to distort the pixels for me, that's just my experience.

 

[Soki]

I'm also confused about people saying there was hardly any postgame. There was still 25% of the region left to explore in which there's loads of stuff to do, a new quest (finding all the seven Sages), and the Battle Subway. Maybe even more that I can't remember. Despite my complaints about the games, this definitely wasn't one and I'm sad we've never seen this kind of postgame ever again.

 

[Zeb]

Gen V is my favourite generation so far, but it does seem to be a marmite generation with people's opinions on it. There's just as many people that adore it as there is people that hate it.

 

[Esserise]

I thought you were saying that Reshiram and Zekrom had more than one legend.

Nah, I was just saying that it's more unique/creative than them simply being the "embodiment" or representation of some fundamental concept like Groudon/Kyogre, Dialga/Palkia, and Xerneas/Yveltal. Ho-Oh's is more unique than that as well, I just don't think it's especially more developed than what Reshiram/Zekrom have, and as you say, what ultimately tips the edge in the dragons' favor in my book is the better payoff. (Well, that, and I just prefer them in general - the Tao trio are some of my favorite designs.)

What do we know about "as ever"? Sure enough, the Johto games don't really explain what the past circumstances were other than the two towers being used for resting and awakening, which is curious but a little vague. Perhaps the two towers served as the ancient version of a Pokemon Center, and the modern version is very recent. Maybe using technology to heal Pokemon is problematic because it devalues the risks to their lives.

Maybe. That's certainly an intriguing thought, but it's more on the speculative side rather than being a direct inference from what the games tell us.

A certain myth does go to show that there was a difference in the past: "There once were Pokémon that became very close to humans. There once were humans and Pokémon that ate together at the same table. It was a time when there existed no differences to distinguish the two."

I don't know why this is stated in Sinnoh rather than Johto, but at least HGSS support this by referencing Pokemon walking alongside their trainers before Poke Balls existed.

Right, and this is indeed something I've wondered about before, because people in the games always talk about how the invention of Poké Balls changed the way that people and Pokémon interact. But aside from Team Plasma's shenanigans, this change has always been framed as a good thing - it formalized Pokémon battles (or perhaps even allowed them to happen in the first place; I can't recall if they've ever mentioned battling for sport in the ancient times), which the series interprets as a way for people to get to know each other better. That seems like progress rather than decay, and one of the things I liked about BW is that it hung a question mark over that for a bit. But if anything, that's perhaps what HGSS should have been doing (and as a matter of fact, one of the things I've always thought was odd about BW is that in the course of all their anti-Poké Ball discourse, they never really mention Walking Pokémon).

and it is very possible that this had a negative effect on the regular Pokemon, as well.

The present state of the relationship is that Ho-Oh and Lugia can't fulfill their roles, which for the former is pretty obviously tied to healing (Sacred Ash) and in some cases resurrection. This isn't explicitly stated, but it isn't hard to read between the lines.

This is yet another interesting possibility with a lot of potential. But the games don't really explore it, however cool that would be to see.

I think the Ho-Oh and Lugia mythology is clearly one of the better ones, but it always feels somewhat undercooked to me.

This counterpoint perspective suggests that Unova was rebuilt without the dragons' help, which makes me wonder how the older Unova was any better. Only the Abyssal Ruins give us some idea, but that just opens a can of worms due to the lack consistency (the king from the ruins predated the twin heroes). But what really bothers me is how easily the dragons destroyed what they had created, and for what? No one forced them to side with the twin heroes' sons... Shouldn't they have known better after the debacle with the twin heroes themselves? This makes them look rather mindless, since no context is provided.

I'm glad you brought up the Abyssal Ruins. Because I think where a lot of people (or perhaps more accurately, the relative handful of people who ever cared about the Abyssal Ruins) have it backward.

I think, and I have tried to make sure that this is all at least based on dialogue from the games themselves (after pouring over this matter way too much), that the Abyssal Ruins king did not predate the Twin Heroes, and that the sons' conflict was not the time at which the dragons turned into their stone forms.

What do we know?

Date-wise, we do know that the Relic items from the Abyssal Ruins were made by an ancient civilization 3,000 years ago.

We also know that the Darmanitan in front of the Relic Castle went to sleep 2,500 years ago, when the Relic Castle was still flourishing.

Here's the thing though - people always assume that the Relic Castle was the domain of one of the original Twin Heroes. I think that's incorrect.

Noticeably, the games always, until we meet with Drayden and Iris in Opelucid, refer to only one hero, with one dragon. In fact, there's a moment in Castelia where they are very specific about this (and I'll just rely on Black Version's dialogue in order to avoid constant slashing):

> Ghetsis: Indeed... No matter. We already have an exceptional base of operations. Is everyone familiar with the legend of the founding of the Unova region?"

> Iris: "I am! It's the black Dragon-type Pokémon, right?"

> Ghetsis: "The truth is this... The black dragon appeared before a hero who sought the ideal/true way to knit together a world full of warring people. This black Dragon-type Pokémon shared its knowledge--and bared its fangs at those who stood against it. Together, the power of this Pokémon and the hero brought unity to the hearts of everyone in the land, and that is how Unova was created.

Iris, despite being fully aware of the Twin Heroes as we later learn, immediately recognizes the legend of Unova's creation as pertaining to one dragon. And Ghetsis then goes on to describe a lone hero. This is true as well of the people of Icirrus City, and of a man at the Desert Resort, who describes the Relic Castle as the ruins of a city that was founded by the hero and his dragon partner.

Let's go a bit further. In B2W2, there's a man in Icirrus who says that Reshiram and Zekrom have likely met with many heroes over the thousands of years. If you believe that the dragons turned into their stone forms after the sons' conflict, and that was the end of it, then that man's line makes no sense.

But if you flip it around, it all works out. Here's how I read the situation:

A long time ago, we had the Twin Heroes, founded a new region alongside the unified dragon. The Twins began to argue, which split the dragon. And while they were eventually able to arrive at a truce, their sons mucked it up and reignited the conflict, enraging the dragons. The dragons went berserk and vanished. We know all of this from Drayden and Iris, but they never say when exactly all of this was taking place. And frankly, as far as stories about how regions are formed go, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the story to end with the region being scorched to death.

Perhaps somewhat notably, Drayden and Iris's tale makes no mention of the "warring people" that Ghetsis talked about in his version of the story with only one hero. So here's where my reading is inverted. Is it too much of a stretch to think, based on this, that the rampage of Reshiram and Zekrom left the region in terrible shape, and with no clear leader, which would have led to conflict among the people? And in that time, perhaps a solitary hero came along and was able to win the allegiance of one of the dragons ("King defeated [White] alone; [Black] joined King in a day," perhaps). This lone hero and his dragon united the warring people, and finally, Unova was established. And depending on which dragon he allied with, this determined Unova's cultural values in your version of the game. In Black Version, where Ghetsis talks about a hero with a black dragon, we get a more modernized Unova. This matches Zekrom, the more "advanced"-looking of the dragons. And it's the opposite in White - the hero would have allied with Reshiram, resulting in the more traditional Unova in that game.

And this would have gone on over the centuries. This way, Reshiram and Zekrom could have indeed met with many heroes across their millennia of life, until they finally lost their energy and turned into the Dragon Stones.

As this pertains to the Abyssal King... well, it's pretty clearly hinted in B2W2 that they may be the ancestor of N, and may have had abilities like him. This could also make sense - in, say, Black Version, the hero allied with Zekrom, as per Ghetsis's story (and B2W2 state that Ghetsis investigated the Abyssal Ruins himself). So it follows that, in Black Version, Ghetsis intends for N to ally with Zekrom, just as the lone hero did. Vice-versa in White Version, naturally.

Zinzolin also reiterates that the Abyssal King united the warring people of the land, which I obviously think points to the King being the first lone hero. Granted, he does say, "if that is the truth, then he was just like the hero!", and you can read that a few ways. Either the Abyssal King was a subsequent hero - it's said that Reshiram/Zekrom have likely met many, after all - or that information about the Abyssal King specifically just isn't widely known, and Zinzolin is realizing that the King matches the description of the lone hero. Which I'd argue is a perfectly reasonable assumption, given that the temple is underwater and still being researched/translated by people like Ghetsis and Cynthia. The public may know about the lone hero, but they don't necessarily know about the cryptic underwater ruins or that they are the tomb of the hero.

There is the follow-up question of why people don't seem to know much about the Twins (since we have to learn that bit from Drayden and Iris), but I think that's easily answered by the comparative brevity of the Twins' reign. The lone hero united the region when it was disarray and provided a vision for Unova's dominant values and development for the next many thousands of years to come. That's much more influential and important to the people than the Twins and their screw-up.

But again, I have to wonder why the dragons think that two trainers should decide the fate of Pokemon in Unova. Why don't the Pokemon get to decide? I can sort of understand Zekrom being blinded by strong ideals, which are dangerous, but why is Reshiram's truth dictated by a trainer?

Well, the dragons are willingly lending their power to those two Trainers whose views the dragons have acknowledged as worthwhile causes. It's representative of teamwork between people and Pokémon, so I don't think it's really either one party or the other that's making the decision. The Trainers wouldn't be able to realize their respective visions without the dragons' allegiance. On top of that, the Trainers aren't necessarily deciding only the fate of Pokémon. They would inherently be affecting the humans' way of life as well.

Also, in my previous section, I mentioned that guy in Icirrus who talks about the dragons meeting many heroes over the years. What I really like about that line is that he calls the dragons "foolish" for still believing in heroes after centuries of trying to make the world perfect and failing. That suggests, to me at least, that the dragons are fallible. They think that allying with humans and working together to create a better world is the best course of action, but that isn't necessarily an objective truth. Who says the dragons' method is the best approach? They're just trying to improve the world in their own way, like anyone else.

 

[Silktree]

@Esserise How do you explain the relic items, in particular the crown, dating back to 3,000 years ago? Do you really think that the Abyssal king lived 500 years later? Your theory would be elegant otherwise, but... Not to mention that I don't understand why Drayden and Iris wouldn't mention the Abyssal king rebuilding Unova.

As for the dragons having allied with many heroes... That could be explained by the twin heroes not being their first partners. Perhaps they split and merged again at least once.

Overall, my beef with Unova's lore is that I can't find a headcanon I am satisfied with, and the dragons are not as noble as the main characters make them out to be.

 

[Esserise]

How do you explain the relic items, in particular the crown, dating back to 3,000 years ago? Do you really think that the Abyssal king lived 500 years later? Your theory would be elegant otherwise, but...

The Abyssal King ruled 3,000 years ago. That's when the Relic items were made, and when he and the dragon established the city in the Desert Resort. But he doesn't have to have survived 500 years in order for his city to have. America far outlived George Washington, after all. And that's all that Juniper's comment proves, is that the Relic Castle city thrived for at least 500 years.

Not to mention that I don't understand why Drayden and Iris wouldn't mention the Abyssal king rebuilding Unova.

A couple of possible reasons - brevity being the first, as their infodump was getting a little long in the tooth by that point, and the game had already mentioned the lone hero earlier with Ghetsis and other bits of dialogue. Drayden and Iris certainly could have mentioned it, but it's self-eivdent that Unova didn't remain destroyed anyway, and the story of the lone hero is something that most people are already aware of (indeed, a kid in Accumula even says that everybody in the region knows that story - what people are less aware of is the Twin Heroes' story, which is why we only first learn about it from Drayden). On top of that, they're explaining the initial battle between Reshiram and Zekrom because they've been informed by Alder that N wants the dragons to fight. So they're explaining the context of that - how the dragons first came into being and what happened the last time somebody tried to pit them against each other.

Whatever the case, it is profoundly easier for me to believe that they simply glossed over the subsequent chain of lone heroes, which had already been alluded to, than it is for me to believe that the dragons have split and reunited once before without that ever being mentioned.

Overall, my beef with Unova's lore is that I can't find a headcanon I am satisfied with, and the dragons are not as noble as the main characters make them out to be.

Fair enough. I mean, I myself can relate on at least one level - it bugs me tremendously that the Abyssal Ruins' missing text was never officially filled in, and I can't for the life of me think of a word to fill in the third blank that satisfies me. There are a couple of other lingering threads here and there that I think they could have tied up better as well.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

it bugs me tremendously that the Abyssal Ruins' missing text was never officially filled in, and I can't for the life of me think of a word to fill in the third blank that satisfies me.

Anyone know what it says in Japanese?

 

[Silktree]

@Esserise I think you're forgetting about this description of the Dragonspiral Tower:

That building serenely towering over everything is Dragonspiral Tower. From far in the past, before Unova was founded, it still stands tall today. On the top floor, so it's been told, the legendary Pokémon is waiting for a person pursuing ideals/seeking the truth to appear.

And from an NPC in Icirrus Town:

The legendary Pokémon Reshiram shared its wisdom with the hero and defied foes with columns of fire. The hero and that Pokémon were as close as a parent and child. People were filled with awe and looked up to them, and that is said to be the beginning of what became ancient Unova.

Combine that with Iris' statement:

That single Dragon Pokémon, along with twin heroes, brought a new region into being. And people and Pokémon had happy lives!

But, but... The two heroes' sons started the battle again! And an instant later, Reshiram and Zekrom destroyed Unova with fire and lightning! Then, they disappeared! But, but... If people work with Pokémon in the right way, we don't have to worry anymore about the world being destroyed. I mean, Reshiram and Zekrom worked hard for everyone and made a new region! So, it should be all right, I think.

It seems to me that there was a single hero who created a kingdom (known as ancient Unova in hindsight) with one of the dragons before the twin heroes (with a unified dragon) came along and Unova was actually established. We probably agree that the Abyssal King built the Dragonspiral Tower, but how could he have done it after Unova was destroyed? The tower predated Unova.