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Is Pokemon losing steam?

Everclear

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Sigh. People keep bringing up the dexit. Pretty sure it's only temp. Just wait for Sw 2 / Sh 2.
Uh no, **** that. I'm not going to wait a year or two just to play a rehashed version of Shield/Sword with a couple of new gimmicks. Adding some new marketing ploy on top of a shitty game engine isn't enough to justify spending $50-$60 on a game just to have all the Pokemon available, when they all should've already been included in the original Shield/Sword in the first place.
 

TechSkylander1518

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There was that quote that said just because a pokemon won't appear in Sw/Sh, doesn't mean it won't appear in a future game.
That doesn't change anything? Masuda's saying that every game will have barriers on what Pokemon can enter it from now on. A Pokemon that doesn't appear in SwSh has a chance of appearing in a later game, but in that later game, other Pokemon can be cut, even those that were included in SwSh.
 

Kyriaki

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Could it be possible that rather than having lost steam, they're burned out?
 

Oriden

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Could it be possible that rather than having lost steam, they're burned out?
I don't think they're burned out... but I do think that they've gotten so big that it's getting harder for them to fit everything into a game now. While maybe the cartridge doesn't limit them yet, it must be getting harder to find somewhere in a region to fit some things, as well as finding time in their own schedule to fit development for it. Not to mention just keeping track of everything. So I can understand their approach now of cutting stuff out so they can focus on just a smaller portion. Don't love it, but I can understand it.



Still don't understand where everyone is coming from with thinking that the recent games are somehow worse than the older ones... as much as I loved Gen 1 and 2, they weren't good games, they were just a good formula from which better games could be made and they have done that with every generation since. Gen 3 and 4 weren't strong story-wise. I refused to play Gen 5 but I understand that it was apparently the first time that they really pulled off characterization and so the story was very good for those games.

But all of the first five generations were repetitive and graphically similar... to the point that the only one I actually fully finished was Gold because that was my first game and everything after it just felt like more of the same. I already ran two regions in Gold, why would I do that a third time, or a fourth time, or a fifth time? I did get a decent ways through Gen 3 and 4 (I know for a fact that I am almost done Diamond, much to my amazement) but their plots are so not memorable and the gameplay is so tedious that I haven't bothered to push through to the end. And yet these are some of the "best" games before Pokemon "declined?"

I find the graphics argument backwards, too. Because they're not on-par with other games, they should've stuck with their stagnant 2D art style? Why? Because people can't bitch about it not being good enough if it's in 2D?

I'm starting to think that the love for Gens 3 and 4 is just nostalgia glasses talking. It's popular to hate on Gen 1 and 2 for that reason, but no one mentions how bland Gen 3 and 4 were as well- they're practically just Gen 1 and 2 with a lot more color and some new mechanics thrown in. Recent games are at least trying to improve graphically instead of just accepting their fate as a stagnant 2D series, they have more memorable stories and characters (well, moreso Gen 7 on the characters than Gen 6), and they are expanding upon the world via new concepts like Trials, Mega Evolution and Regional Variants. Even Galar's unique attitude towards gyms is interesting. World-building especially has stepped up in more recent gens compared to the past.

The only complaint I have is that they let Mega Evolution fall to the wayside in favor of introducing another new "boost" mechanic each gen... they really would have done better expanding upon that rather than doing an entirely new one each time. =/

Not to say that the recent games are absolutely perfect, there's definitely a lot that they could do better, but I really cannot see how they are in any way a decline. If they had persisted with the 2D games, that would have surely been the death of them.
 

Scruffyjay

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I don't think they're "downgrading" themselves or losing steam. It's just that naturally as gaming progresses, people expect more and more. Personally, I adored X and Sun (greatly prefer both of these to Diamond, for example, or even Black), but a lot of people were disappointed by them.

Unfortunately, they are heavily pressured to pump out games faster than they should have to, and that is likely why they're unable to satisfy as many fans as gaming in general evolves.

Edit: Gen 4 was definitely not "impressive" to me. I almost dropped the games because of diamond. Honestly, there's a lot of subjectiveness to all of this - but I also recognize I'm in a minority here.
 

Oriden

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Edit: Gen 4 was definitely not "impressive" to me. I almost dropped the games because of diamond. Honestly, there's a lot of subjectiveness to all of this - but I also recognize I'm in a minority here.
Actually I have to admit that Gen 3 and 4 were the lowest point in the series for me and I might've skipped out on 5 even if I didn't hate it for the Pokémon anyway. Neither were all that impressive and my interest in Pokémon had pretty much been lost by Gen 4- if a friend hadn't wanted to go for the Manaphy store event and asked for a ride, I wouldn't have even picked up Diamond in the first place. So I guess we can be minority buddies. =)

I wonder how many people on this forum just happened to have Gen 3 or 4 as their first games and that's why those were the "good years" to them, though. I tend to run into people whose first game was Ruby or Sapphire more than anything from Gen 1 or 2.
 

EmpoleonProd

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From a broader audience standpoint, Pokemon is doing just fine.

From a hardcore audience standpoint? That's more up for debate. I've never been as hesitant to buy a Pokemon game as I have been with SwSh. Ever since I became a teenager (around the time of BW) and had any amount of money to buy games with, I was the "pre-order both games as soon as possible" type of guy. Gen 7 REALLY rubbed me the wrong way however as it was the first time I viewed something Gamefreak and Pokemon had done as "cash-grabby". Obviously businesses exist to make money, but did we need TWO third versions? USUM could've been one game. The plot could've served you with a choice on what Cosmoem evolves into and that would be that. It'd be no different from Emerald allowing you to choose which [email protected] legendary to hunt (by literally choosing the color red or blue). Maybe it could be built into the time, where in, let's call it Stars, Cosmoem evolves into Lunala at night and Solgaleo during the day. With this one key point in mind, USUM serves no purpose for being a dual-release vs. Stars other than to simply make some extra cash on the side, and I was a sucker that bought both games, something I very well might never do again.

For awhile, the Pokemon Company was predictable, paired games, remake paired games, third version, this cycle continued for the first four generations. XY felt SO incomplete however that it felt like they'd return to the "third version" strategy, and give us Z to coincide with the XY&Z anime. Instead of doing that, they gave us somewhat rushed, yet at the same time, fairly complete games in their own right with SM, but shoe-horned in the Zygarde plotline in those games instead, then they gave us USUM which could've either not existed and given us a DLC plot for Necrozma and it's no forms, been SM from the start, OR been one game, Stars. Now I don't even know what to think with SwSh, will it be like XY and left alone? Will we get an actual third version? Will we get sequels? TWO third versions? I'm almost hesitant to even pre-order the games at all because one of the more plausible rumors coming from a source that's been right has said that there will be a USUM-type deal going on for games in 2020.

I guess I'm more financially conscious than I used to be. It was easy to run to my mom and be like "I want this game" and not care about the release schedule of future games. It was also easy to use my allowance or birthday money on the new games too, but now I have to seriously justify my purchases and if we're going to get dual third versions a year later, I almost think I could justify waiting for those instead.

I got off on a bit of tangent there but the bottom line/tl;dr is that shady decisions and controversial business practices (like releasing the same game four times) has me very hesitant to mindlessly throw my money at their games now, and I'm sure I'm not the only "hardcore fan" that feels this way. That being said, the vast majority of consumers will continue to consume Pokemon games.
 

Silktree

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Recent games are at least trying to improve graphically instead of just accepting their fate as a stagnant 2D series, they have more memorable stories and characters (well, moreso Gen 7 on the characters than Gen 6), and they are expanding upon the world via new concepts like Trials, Mega Evolution and Regional Variants.
Out of curiosity, didn't you say last year that you'd given up on finishing SM? Because of the Pokemon, maybe? Anyway, I liked the worldbuilding behind trials, but Galar's sports theme isn't for me. It's a rather off-putting world in real life, personally. A kid humbly making their way to the top is more appealing, even if it's worn out (I'd rather see something entirely different).

As for SM's "memorable" story, that's debatable especially after USUM diluted it and Lusamine's exact motivations were already unclear (and her fate was left unresolved). Since there is always something that bothers me about the writing in Pokemon, I place greater value on the lore and how it lends itself to my imagination, so sometimes the less said the better. Other (most?) fans just don't care at all and find the dialogue/cutscenes intrusive.
 
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swiftgallade46

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Yeah the franchise is slowly dying and what makes it frustrating is that Game Freak are the ones who have crashed the ship into the iceberg themselves by focusing on temporary gimmicks that they ditch after a generation or two rather than on long lasting quality. They're also condescending to alot of fans as seen with Masuda's recent passive aggressive apology message and refusal to do something about the Dexit thing.
I’m not really seeing where it’s dying. Unless you mean subjectively like in your own opinion, in which case I respectfully disagree.

Genuine question, but do you have examples of GameFreak being “condescending”? This is the first I’ve ever heard of it and the public announcement really did not read as passive aggressive at all to me, just disappointing.
 

Aulos

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I don't see the series as a simple rise and fall. For example, I was super disappointed with Gen III. In my eyes, the series has already had bumps here and there and has recovered.

I'd agree that I'm not sure the series is going to recover from the Gen VII fall, though. Especially with the release of LGP/E and then Sword/Shield already proving to be disappointments before release. The mindset of GF/TPC has changed and that is a rut that a series very well may never recover from. Something will have to wake them up to see that the series deserves to be good again. The problem is that right now Pokemon caught fire on the mobile front and thus the mainline games have now taken a backseat.

Many of us saw that Nintendo going mobile would be bad, and now we're seeing that happening.
 

Oriden

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Out of curiosity, didn't you say last year that you'd given up on finishing SM? Because of the Pokemon, maybe? Anyway, I liked the worldbuilding behind trials, but Galar's sports theme isn't for me. It's a rather off-putting world in real life, personally. A kid humbly making their way to the top is more appealing, even if it's worn out (I'd rather see something entirely different).

As for SM's "memorable" story, that's debatable especially after USUM diluted it and Lusamine's exact motivations were already unclear (and her fate was left unresolved). Since there is always something that bothers me about the writing in Pokemon, I place greater value on the lore and how it lends itself to my imagination, so sometimes the less said the better. Other (most?) fans just don't care at all and find the dialogue/cutscenes intrusive.
I haven't given up on it, I just really haven't been motivated to finish so I'm still only halfway through. I admit, I got tired of random encounters a long time ago so I'm actually really happy with what they've done for Sword and Shield in that regard. There's also the whole UB part of SM that really just does not make me excited to finish the games either, so... it's a bit of finding the journey tedious and the destination unsatisfying. I love the concepts that SM introduced with regional variants and the idea that some regions might have a different culture that don't involve gyms- for world-building purposes, they were great games. But implementation definitely fell short and I was not at all impressed by Ultra Beasts which made them being the story focus an extra let down. Naturally USUM focusing even more on UBs just made me skip them outright.

I'm not a fan of Galar's sports theme, either. =/ I do find it interesting in terms of just the regional culture being different but if I lived in the Pokémon world, Galar probably isn't a region I would want to live in.
 

dvor

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The reason people think Gen 1-2 were the best is purely due to nostalgia. If you really look at it, the stories were meh and the pokemon could be really boring and unoriginal. They were mediocre. Gens 3-5 were where Pokemon starting stepping up their game, having better graphics, cooler pokemon, better story lines, etc. But the reason everyone hates Gen 5 is how they "have unoriginal pokemon". This sentiment makes me so mad. Are pokemon like Chandelure, Golurk, Victini, Leavanny, Volcarona, and Heatmor "unoriginal"?! Gens 6-8 are actually doing really well. The graphics look great, the Pokemon are amazing, the stories are awesome
This.
so much this
 

NealIRC

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Also, I'd like to see GF make more pokemon based off objects and less of animals.

Grookey is a Grass monkey? We already had 1 before, Pansage.
Drednaw is a Water turtle? Already had 1 before.
Sobble is a lizard well so is Charmander, Heliolisk, Salandit (but so what, none were water).

I actually don't mind reoccurring animals so long as the element is different.
 

Scruffyjay

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Actually I have to admit that Gen 3 and 4 were the lowest point in the series for me and I might've skipped out on 5 even if I didn't hate it for the Pokémon anyway. Neither were all that impressive and my interest in Pokémon had pretty much been lost by Gen 4- if a friend hadn't wanted to go for the Manaphy store event and asked for a ride, I wouldn't have even picked up Diamond in the first place. So I guess we can be minority buddies. =)

I wonder how many people on this forum just happened to have Gen 3 or 4 as their first games and that's why those were the "good years" to them, though. I tend to run into people whose first game was Ruby or Sapphire more than anything from Gen 1 or 2.
Gen 3 was my first (but with fire red) and my favorite, but yeah I think nostalgia factor might play a lot into people's favorites.
 

Silktree

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Drednaw is a Water turtle? Already had 1 before.
Two (the Squirtle and Tirtouga lines). They're based on different turtle species, but there was no reason to make them all Water-type (Drednaw even has the exact same typing as Tirtouga).

There are still a lot of unused animals (some more distinct than others) and mythical creatures. I would prefer not to see object-based Pokemon become common, but whatever works I guess.
 

Leaf_Ranger

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Still don't understand where everyone is coming from with thinking that the recent games are somehow worse than the older ones... as much as I loved Gen 1 and 2, they weren't good games, they were just a good formula from which better games could be made and they have done that with every generation since. Gen 3 and 4 weren't strong story-wise. I refused to play Gen 5 but I understand that it was apparently the first time that they really pulled off characterization and so the story was very good for those games.

(...)
I find the graphics argument backwards, too. Because they're not on-par with other games, they should've stuck with their stagnant 2D art style? Why? Because people can't bitch about it not being good enough if it's in 2D?

I'm starting to think that the love for Gens 3 and 4 is just nostalgia glasses talking. It's popular to hate on Gen 1 and 2 for that reason, but no one mentions how bland Gen 3 and 4 were as well- they're practically just Gen 1 and 2 with a lot more color and some new mechanics thrown in. Recent games are at least trying to improve graphically instead of just accepting their fate as a stagnant 2D series, they have more memorable stories and characters (well, moreso Gen 7 on the characters than Gen 6), and they are expanding upon the world via new concepts like Trials, Mega Evolution and Regional Variants. Even Galar's unique attitude towards gyms is interesting. World-building especially has stepped up in more recent gens compared to the past.

The only complaint I have is that they let Mega Evolution fall to the wayside in favor of introducing another new "boost" mechanic each gen... they really would have done better expanding upon that rather than doing an entirely new one each time. =/

Not to say that the recent games are absolutely perfect, there's definitely a lot that they could do better, but I really cannot see how they are in any way a decline. If they had persisted with the 2D games, that would have surely been the death of them.
I agree with you on Gen I and II games not being good games. While I enjoyed it as a kid, I bought the eshop versions of Blue and Gold and at the end it was more for nostalgia than anything else BUT I do love Gen III and it was that Gen. that made me come back to Pkmn, because it had new Pkmn, almost no previous Pkmn, greener areas, great music, running shoes, no Oak, no Kanto, diverse settings, etc. so much that I think that Sapphire is better than AS and I can still play and greatly enjoy the first to the point that I turn my As and I just wish there were no other Pkmn aside from te Hoenn ones.
Nowadays I feel more love for Gen IV (read Sinnoh) due to being the last one based on a Japanese region and that along with any other arguments is based yet again and mostly on nostalgia.
I believe that GF should either stay as 2D and keep the staples that it introduced with each new generation that going for 3D and always trying to make each game feel unique. Seasons make as much sense as day/night cycle and yet we won't most likely see it again, when it could have been expanded, namely the Pkmn types affected by it, or GF should go for 3D but building a better team (but here there are other reasons behind it namely the interest on personal growth by GF's team members by trying to make other games).
I hate Gigas but I also hate Megas due to not being permanent. They could come up with new types by having different forms, regional variants and branched evolution and yet, they go with flashy things.
 

Leaf_Ranger

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I got off on a bit of tangent there but the bottom line/tl;dr is that shady decisions and controversial business practices (like releasing the same game four times) has me very hesitant to mindlessly throw my money at their games now, and I'm sure I'm not the only "hardcore fan" that feels this way. That being said, the vast majority of consumers will continue to consume Pokemon games.
I just saw news about (I think) yet another backpack exclsuive-thingy and all I think is "seriously, after Alola's version exclusive colour and clothing, now we're tearing content apart according to retailers!?" In a few years, it'll be 100% like Ubisoft with tons of firrent packs and bonuses.
Patiente is a virtue and my money is the result of my work so I'll spend it wisely.
 

NealIRC

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There are still a lot of unused animals (some more distinct than others) and mythical creatures. I would prefer not to see object-based Pokemon become common, but whatever works I guess.
1 of the earlier leaks that claimed all the photos, had a Ghost pokemon as clocks. Boy am I wanting that! Hoping for a clock pokemon.

Clocks are like the last objects, besides teapots. Rotom appliances pretty much covered it all.

But I do want another candle/chandelure and 1 that's more Western-looking.

The whole Sandygast/Palossand line was creative. So was Cofagrigus yet creepy.
 
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