It's a shame we never had a league/tournament where Ash used all of his Pokemon

[Johtoo]

I'm not sure if that necessarily is a sign of regret on how they handled Ash's Johto team. Despite having Cyndaquil evolve, Quilava only had one mostly off-screen battle during the Sinnoh League that ended in a draw. It was still cool for Ash to get a Quilava, if only because it should have happened during Johto, but it really didn't get a chance to shine, which was a shame. His Johto team was rather lackluster in terms of strength. Totodile only got one Gym battle where it was basically fodder, Noctowl really only had one Gym battle to shine and Bulbasaur was on his team for far too long, which made Phanpy's addition feel really weak. While the Gym battles were generally better than what we got in Kanto, the development for Ash's team left a lot to be desired.

I think that it was mainly a combination of not wanting to give Ash more evolved Pokemon on top of taking longer to get these new Pokemon that affected their development. Ash's future teams weren't perfect by any means, but allowing him to have evolved Pokemon and slowly building up his teams from the start of future series instead of taking about forty episodes to do that were big advancements that his Johto team didn't have.

I think the problem with Ash's johto team was a lack of a genuine powerhouse like with his other teams. Even though Ash carried a bulbasaur and squirtle in kanto, he had charizard. And viewers knew that Charizard could carry Ash to any victory. In Johto, that was absent. Hoenn he had sceptile, Sinnoh, infernape, Unova, krokodile, etc. The anime does a good job at making unevolved Pokemon appear powerful, and Squirtle and Bulbasaur were never viewed as weak, like Cyndaquil and Totodile, but there wasn't a powerhouse in his johto team to balance things out. Then again, I think even comparing bulbasaur and squirtle to cyndaquil and totodile, his Kanto Pokemon felt stronger as well. Which is a shame because Johto had 3 years to sort this out, and they couldn't even build up a team that appeared stronger, despite having more time. I also have a huge soft spot for the Johto series, but I actually thought Ash's battle with clair was a personal low point of the series. He struck out with his Johto Pokemon, and basically returned with his all star Kanto team and won the battle. That battle basically devalued his Johto Pokemon and effectively proved that not only weren't they good enough for the league, but they weren't even strong enough to win the final gym badge.

 

[jungle_penguins]

In general there were issues. The Johto team got overshadowed in the Johto league by Kanto mons, and the AG team got the major BF win taken by Kanto, too.
Although some of the later teams were deprived of a major win even with a league to themselves, but it would have been worse with reserves.

(Though I might go so far as to say JN could have had Ash only reserves to fit into the whole world theme and make the Champion wins easier to swallow with Gou used to show off new Pokémon, but that didn't happen)

I wonder if someone on the production team realized this, because Sinnoh League has a big lack of Kanto stuff. Even more time for Hoenn with the last battle.

A bit off topic now but is there a consensus on why Bulbasaur was around for so long?

 

[Hidden Mew]

I think the problem with Ash's johto team was a lack of a genuine powerhouse like with his other teams. Even though Ash carried a bulbasaur and squirtle in kanto, he had charizard. And viewers knew that Charizard could carry Ash to any victory. In Johto, that was absent. Hoenn he had sceptile, Sinnoh, infernape, Unova, krokodile, etc. The anime does a good job at making unevolved Pokemon appear powerful, and Squirtle and Bulbasaur were never viewed as weak, like Cyndaquil and Totodile, but there wasn't a powerhouse in his johto team to balance things out. Then again, I think even comparing bulbasaur and squirtle to cyndaquil and totodile, his Kanto Pokemon felt stronger as well. Which is a shame because Johto had 3 years to sort this out, and they couldn't even build up a team that appeared stronger, despite having more time. I also have a huge soft spot for the Johto series, but I actually thought Ash's battle with clair was a personal low point of the series. He struck out with his Johto Pokemon, and basically returned with his all star Kanto team and won the battle. That battle basically devalued his Johto Pokemon and effectively proved that not only weren't they good enough for the league, but they weren't even strong enough to win the final gym badge.

I wouldn't consider Cyndaquil weak by any means. It may not be a powerhouse like most of Ash's other Fire starters, but it still was used in quite a few Gym battles during Johto. It didn't really feel like Squirtle was noticeably powerful until it returned for the Johto League, but it had pretty minimal battles in Kanto and only started to shine more during the Orange Islands. Ash bringing in his reserves for his battle with Clair felt less like a way to devalue his Johto Pokemon and more like trying to hype up Clair's Pokemon because she was a Dragon type Gym Leader. I guess that might be the same thing, but I don't think that was the interpretation they were going for with that decision. I think that they just wanted to hype up Ash's eighth gym badge by bringing in fan favorite Pokemon like Charizard and Snorlax.

That being said, Ash struggling against a Gym Leader with his current team and choosing to rely on his reserves would be unthinkable in future series. It was arguably already out of character when Ash would ideally want to improve his current team if he felt like they weren't up to the task against a Gym Leader or any opponent for that matter.

 

[LuxrayOfTheWild]

Cyndaquil was easily the most consistently reliable Pokemon Ash had on his team for Johto's Gyms. Cyndaquil participated in 5/8 Gym battles and usually walked away with at least one win. Cyndaquil was definitely shafted though in the leagues. The only times Cyndaquil was used in the leagues was against Jackson/Vincent and there he was shafted so Bulbasaur could shine. Then in Sinnoh as a Quilava, his screentime was completely torn away for the unnecessary Team Rocket screentime and Quilava only gets a draw with Nando's Armaldo.

 

[pharaohyami5000]

I wonder if someone on the production team realized this, because Sinnoh League has a big lack of Kanto stuff. Even more time for Hoenn with the last battle.

A bit off topic now but is there a consensus on why Bulbasaur was around for so long?

Could be that Ash's Bulbasaur is a favorite among the series creator(s) and, from checking around, only absent in the XY saga.

Regarding many Kanto Pokemon in Johto, I noticed that 2 of the Gym Leaders, Morty and Chuck, are the only ones with no Johto Pokemon in their team. Is it difficult to squeeze in Misdreavus and Tyrogue/Hitmontop/Heracross in? Falkner at least granted Hoothoot something, along with giving Ash the fight he deserves with Pidgeot and Dodrio.

I did like the Sinnoh League mixed in Ash's reserves for him to take down some of the opponents, while saving his needed Sinnoh team against Paul. I would have liked that for the other Leagues, but I guess it could be costly for the creative team there. Tobias, we know what would have been needed, so I'm shutting my mouth on that.

Unova League, Ash did get more than 5/6 Pokemon throughout his journey, yet why the powerhouse team is reserved, instead of used, against Cameron remains a question.

 

[Daren]

When I think more about it I realize that back when Johto was airing I didn't really think of his Kanto and Johto teams as distinct from each other, just being "Ash's team"--after all, during the Kanto episodes he released Pokémon and got replacements for them--and I think there's a good chance the writers didn't, either, so Heracross not getting a Gym battle was seen as no different from Muk and Primeape not getting any.

 

[Jaye]

Part of that, I imagine, was also down to Kanto and Johto not being separate series and coming under the collective umbrella of what was simply "Pokemon" at the time. Kanto and Johto are so closely connected that continuing on with the Kanto stuff really wasn't all that outlandish.

Re: Journeys, it's hard to speculate on what happened there because production was so messy, between Covid and changing directors after a year. It's possible they committed to a new team early on and were simply too deep in to turn back. At the time, I thought the Dragonite and Gengar captures were their way of shortcutting Ash to a higher level while also being big headline captures for all the Kanto lovers. Lucario was pure fanservice, almost a box-ticking exercise before Ash's time on the show was up, and if they were going to pick one 'mon to Mega Evolve, then I guess one of the most popular Pokemon ever was a better choice than something more obscure than Glailie or Heracross.

 

[Emelie]

M8 should have done this, especially in battles with old characters such as Cynthia. The match-ups should have been better too like Alain instead of Steven. I think pretty much everyone expected revenge for poor Greninja but instead we got weird power scaling and Leon glorification.

 

[Greninjaman]

Honestly, would him using the reserves make it better? He has so many at this point that giving them all equal screen time is pretty much impossible. Even back then, in Johto, they struggled to give equal screen time.

 

[Hidden Mew]

M8 should have done this, especially in battles with old characters such as Cynthia. The match-ups should have been better too like Alain instead of Steven. I think pretty much everyone expected revenge for poor Greninja but instead we got weird power scaling and Leon glorification.

While using the reserves would have provided some variety for the Master Class matches and made Ash's victories against Champions potentially more believable, I think that if they were going to make better use of Ash's older Pokemon, they would have started a lot earlier in the PWC instead of in the last stretch. That could have given them more time to showcase more of Ash's Pokemon instead of only being used in three matches.

I can understand why they wanted Ash to battle against Champions in the Master Class, but I don't understand why they brought in Alain to make Leon so overpowered. Not only because it made fans expect a Ash Greninja vs. Mega Charizard rematch, but it just seemed like such a strange way to overhype Leon. The same effect could have been done with Alder and he wouldn't have been out of place as a former Unova Regional Champion either. Alain being in the PWC isn't a stretch in itself, but with his minimal interactions with Ash, it seemed kind of a waste to save him for the Master Class. They could have had Ash battle Alain during the Ultra Class at least since that would have been a pretty easy way to create hype for an episode.

Honestly, would him using the reserves make it better? He has so many at this point that giving them all equal screen time is pretty much impossible. Even back then, in Johto, they struggled to give equal screen time.

I wouldn't say that they struggled to give equal screen time in Johto mainly because they didn't really try in the first place. Ash's Kanto Pokemon had the main spotlight from the battle against Clair and the majority of the Johto League, while his Johto Pokemon were mostly put on the sidelines.

 

[Greninjaman]

I wouldn't say that they struggled to give equal screen time in Johto mainly because they didn't really try in the first place. Ash's Kanto Pokemon had the main spotlight from the battle against Clair and the majority of the Johto League, while his Johto Pokemon were mostly put on the sidelines.

How many Gym wins do his Johto Pokemon have anyway?

 

[jungle_penguins]

I would have preferred bringing an old Pokemon back over giving a dang Dragonite to Ash, which the tournament had 3 of.

In regards to how odd it feels, I am of the camp of the 2019 series not intended to be the end of Ash's story, stuff like new Kanto Pokemon mimics a feel of old but establishes as new characters, but lack of characterization too far in meant sidelining them was worse than keeping them in for all battles.

I also wish the first round was 6v6 but that's honestly asking too much.

 

[Hidden Mew]

How many Gym wins do his Johto Pokemon have anyway?

I think about four if you're talking about which Pokemon won the last match of each Gym battle. Charizard won Ash's first Johto Gym badge, Pikachu defeated Milktank, even if it was more of a group effort with Cyndaquil and Totodile, Pryce went for a technical knock out for his Piloswine against Pikachu and Charizard defeated Dragonair for his last Gym badge. Ash still used Johto Pokemon in most of those Gym battles too, but it was pretty clear when they started to rely more heavily on his Kanto Pokemon near the end of the saga.

 

[skynerel]

They should’ve used Ash reserves as he progressed in the PWC, the Sinnoh team against Cynthia and Greninja vs Alain’s Charizard. 137 episodes is more than enough time to at least showcase every one of them even if the battles didn’t have the same amount of focus. Too much wasted time animating and drawing filler episodes.

 

[-PokemonBattleFanatic-]

I can't imagine how Ash would still lose if he did use ALL of his reserves at the Hoenn,Unova and Kalos Leagues other than going the Tobias route otherwise those would've been winnable for Ash if he did use them.

Him and Tyson were down to their last pokemon,Tyson's Meowth almost fainted but still won the match including the entire Hoenn League using the same 6 pokemon.

Virgil beat the guy that eliminated Ash 6-3 and then was down to his last pokemon against Dino in the Finals, beat him and won.

Alain was down to his last pokemon before beating Ash and winning the Kalos League,his overpowered Charizard still received damage while going through both Pikachu and Greninja.

 

[jungle_penguins]

I'm certain if one were to cut every "filler" from the past 3 years in an effort to repurpose, you get like, a singular 6v6 battle's worth of material, probably 50 clip shows, and a dead weekly show.

 

[skynerel]

Well, no one said every filler had to be “cut”, but it certainly takes the space of valuable time that could be use for better character development.

 

[jo36647]

How many Gym wins do his Johto Pokemon have anyway?

Satoshi's Cyndaquil in his 5 Gym Battles defeated Scyther (Giving Satoshi the Medal) Nidorina Clefairy Gasly Steelix (Giving Satoshi the Medal) and Dewgong. And he was defeated by Miltank Haunter and Piloswine

Satoshi's Bailef in his 3 Gym Battles defeated Spinarak Machoke (Giving Satoshi the Medal) and was defeated by Hoothoot and Metapod.

Tododile in his Only Battle lost with the Miltank

Nowtow in the only battle he defeated Haunter and Gengar.

Heracross and Phanfy were not used.

 

[Kurolegacy]

Satoshi's Cyndaquil in his 5 Gym Battles defeated Scyther (Giving Satoshi the Medal) Nidorina Clefairy Gasly Steelix (Giving Satoshi the Medal) and Dewgong. And he was defeated by Miltank Haunter and Piloswine

Satoshi's Bailef in his 3 Gym Battles defeated Spinarak Machoke (Giving Satoshi the Medal) and was defeated by Hoothoot and Metapod.

Tododile in his Only Battle lost with the Miltank

Nowtow in the only battle he defeated Haunter and Gengar.

Heracross and Phanfy were not used.

Bayleef is female fyi.

 

[Charmander4]

How many Gym wins do his Johto Pokemon have anyway?

Bayleef beat Chuck, Noctowl beat Morty, Cyndaquil beat Jasmine, Totodile beat